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Prestidigitation is one hour, not permanent like Mirror Polish. Plus it's debatable Prestidigitation can even provide such a level of reflection...Actually, making something dirty or clean by prestidigitation is pretty much permanent (pending getting cleaned up or dirtied again). But I agree that cleaning isn't the same as putting a mirror shine on a bit of metal.
Mirror Polish is probably still too specialized to really be a useful spell for most adventuring characters, though.
Fun fact: As prestidigitation cannot duplicate other spell effects, before Mirror Polish was published it could theoretically put a mirror sheen on something metallic (table variation of course). Now RAW, it cannot as it would be duplicating the spell effect of Mirror Polish.
In regards to Mirror Polish being too specialized for adventurers... prepared casters man. Not too long ago I went through d20pfsrd and did a count of all 1st and 2nd level spells and then priced out how much it would be to literally have them all (high level game, DM said I literally had all of those level).
There are 146 1st level spells. That costs you 2190 gold (including material cost and "tip" for copying from someone's book). That's a bargain! Your Wizard/Witch is losing money if he doesn't buy them all! As a side note, 2nd level costs a bit more to max... 198 spells, 11880 gold.
I'd say it's a great scroll spell, except that the scroll probably costs more than the materials necessary to polish metal.
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Value of time = value of scroll of mirror polish - value of polishing materials
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Fun fact: As prestidigitation cannot duplicate other spell effects...Fun fact: since a Wish spell could do anything someone might consider using Prestidigitation for, Prestidigitation cannot do anything.
Don't mind me, just removing Prestidigitation from my spells prepared. I wonder how awesome my tea is going to taste once I start using Wish to flavor it instead of a cantrip.
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Don't mind me, just removing Prestidigitation from my spells prepared. I wonder how awesome my tea is going to taste once I start using Wish to flavor it instead of a cantrip.Fun fact: As prestidigitation cannot duplicate other spell effects...Fun fact: since a Wish spell could do anything someone might consider using Prestidigitation for, Prestidigitation cannot do anything.
I take that Prestidigitation cannot mimic the effects of CRB spells.
Wish mimics spell effects and thus is not a limiter.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Fun fact: As prestidigitation cannot duplicate other spell effects...Fun fact: since a Wish spell could do anything someone might consider using Prestidigitation for, Prestidigitation cannot do anything.
But what if you use wish to duplicate prestidigitation? Can it do something then?
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But what if you use wish to duplicate prestidigitation? Can it do something then?Fun fact: As prestidigitation cannot duplicate other spell effects...Fun fact: since a Wish spell could do anything someone might consider using Prestidigitation for, Prestidigitation cannot do anything.
That tears a hole into the astral plane, causing 10d6 damage to anyone within 30 feet.
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Hoping for an epic story about how someone for some reason used wish to duplicate prestidigitation and win the game/defeat the BBEG/do something epic.
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There are 146 1st level spells. That costs you 2190 gold (including material cost and "tip" for copying from someone's book). That's a bargain! Your Wizard/Witch is losing money if he doesn't buy them all! As a side note, 2nd level costs a bit more to max... 198 spells, 11880 gold.
Extremely useful post! thank you kind Sir!
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There are 146 1st level spells. That costs you 2190 gold (including material cost and "tip" for copying from someone's book). That's a bargain! Your Wizard/Witch is losing money if he doesn't buy them all! As a side note, 2nd level costs a bit more to max... 198 spells, 11880 gold.Extremely useful post! thank you kind Sir!
Do these figures include any optimization via Boccob's Blessed Book?
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Do these figures include any optimization via Boccob's Blessed Book?There are 146 1st level spells. That costs you 2190 gold (including material cost and "tip" for copying from someone's book). That's a bargain! Your Wizard/Witch is losing money if he doesn't buy them all! As a side note, 2nd level costs a bit more to max... 198 spells, 11880 gold.Extremely useful post! thank you kind Sir!
I didn't know that was a thing; in my game we just kind of hand waived the page limit in a standard spell book (or assumed I had small library) so I never looked into things like the Blessed Book. Oh wow is that amazing. Hell yes I want to cut 2/3rds off the price of getting high level spells! Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Hmmm would a Blessed Book be worthwhile for 1st and 2nd level spells? It may have 1,000 pages, but each spell takes up one page per spell level. Assuming you had all 1st and 2nd spells in it, you are looking at 542 pages filled up. Without material cost (so only paying for the wizard tip) all 1st level spells cost 963 and all 2nd cost 3920 for a grand savings of 9187. That said, the book itself still costs 12,500, but with the remaining pages you could fit 152 3rd level spells (don't even know if there are that many but...); that would normally cost 20520 but with the blessed book it would cost 6771.
So the price of all 1st, 2nd, and 152 3rd would be 34590 without the Blessed Book. With a Blessed Book, it would be 24154, including the cost of the book. So Blessed Book is still worth it. Now I know that I have been doing it wrong this whole time. That said, I guess you'd still want to keep your cantrips in a normal book just to not waste the space.
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thank you chaoseffect!
1st 2nd 3rd 1st+2nd+3rd
qty of spells 146 198 152
writing cost, each 10 40 90
writing cost, all 1460 7920 13680
wizard copying fees, all 730 3960 6840 11530
cost fee + writing 2190 11880 20520 34590
pages required 146 396 456 998
blessed book: 12500
total 1st+2nd+3rd copying fees + blessed book: 24030
Yes: much better than 34590 over 10 separate spellbooks!
(the savings are even better with high level spells... so get a second blessed book for 4th level spell and beyond...)
Rynjin, your GM must be a extremely harsh, 'cause I find Silent Image to be the most-used first level spell in the game when taken over the course of a character. It's just so versatile it's ridiculous.I've used Minor Image to some effect (turning myself invisible and sending "myself" ahead in the hallway), but that's about the extent of it.
Silent Image especially gets screwed because, well...it's silent. About the best thing you can do is make a wall or something with it, and even then, most of the time even the hired goons are going to be like "Why is there a wall here?"
I once used silent image to fabricate a massive swarm of ants encroaching on a dug-in bunker. It scared them out like a charm. There aren't many silent and scary creatures, but I found one.
Anyway, most worthless spells. Arboreal Hammer. Too many variables. Are we near trees? How big are the trees? Is the enemy in the tree's reach?
Atonement. It is just a roleplay replacement spell.
Can't think of more, but I know there are more.
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I once used silent image to fabricate a massive swarm of ants encroaching on a dug-in bunker. It scared them out like a charm. There aren't many silent and scary creatures, but I found one.
Incorporeal undead. Bonus because you expect physical things to go through them.
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Death Ward was inadvertently nerfed to heck/uselessness as PF changed the way some many of the nastier Undead and Necromancy abilities work. For how little it actually does now, needs to be at least 1 target per level and probably a 10 Min/level spell.
I don't disagree that the time should be longer or that being a lower level might be good, but I think that even with the nerf to death spells and level loss and stuff it's nice to be able to resist negative levels them in the middle of battle - they usually don't give saves until the next day, and the amount of negative levels some things can inflict in a short time can make fights suck pretty bad.
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ANY spell has the potential to be useful and even deadly in the hands of a creative player/GM. You just need to apply it slightly differently.
Spellcrash, given that counterspelling exists.
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Virtue. OK, so it's only 0th level and counts as a pre-cantrip buff, but who actually bothers to take it? Anything else is better.
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Incorporeal undead. Bonus because you expect physical things to go through them.I once used silent image to fabricate a massive swarm of ants encroaching on a dug-in bunker. It scared them out like a charm. There aren't many silent and scary creatures, but I found one.
Also Spiders, a swarm of thousands upon thousands of spiders.
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Virtue. OK, so it's only 0th level and counts as a pre-cantrip buff, but who actually bothers to take it? Anything else is better.
Virtue is pretty decent as long as you know combat is coming. Especially at 1st level. We always cast it before opening a door when we know we are in a hostile environment. It also once saved our Inquisitor's life when we were laying an ambush.
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But what if you use wish to duplicate prestidigitation? Can it do something then?Fun fact: As prestidigitation cannot duplicate other spell effects...Fun fact: since a Wish spell could do anything someone might consider using Prestidigitation for, Prestidigitation cannot do anything.
A wizard I played with once used prestidigitation to produce a shower of chalk that let us see an invisible familiar. We ended up crippling the quest's boss at the end from having eliminated the one ally the GM thought he was absolutely certain they'd have at the end even if we did everything else right (which we did).
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125 posts in and nobody's mentioned Ceremony. Quests and Campaigns, page 24-25. I own a copy and am reading it right now.
Wonderful flavor.
Wonderful role-playing potential.
8 hour casting time.
…
Wait, 8 hours?
Yes, 8 hours, and depending on which ceremony you choose to perform, it may only provide its benefit for 1 standard action. For example, you may perform this 8 hour ceremony and grant someone the ability to grant a dying creature 1d4 hp. Maybe saving their life! If you spend a lot of money, you can perform a really lavish ceremony and give that special someone 3 (three!) whole uses of this amazing healing ability. Or maybe you want to perform an 8 hour ceremony to heal a construct of 1d3 damage. Or provide a (one-time use) +2 to a Charisma-based roll. The ability to perform a single Knowledge check that you're not trained in? Ignore difficult terrain for 1 round? Only 8 hours away!
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Whaaaaaa?
Is that a core book or 3rd party?
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Ceremony
I think my brain just got a blue screen. That's actually impressive. The names of those effects are the sort of things a cleric might do in a community. It sounds so good in theory, but then the blessings he gives those normal community members...
The orphan is going to need actual emotional therapy. That bonus vs. death effects is almost black comedy.
Ditto for the marriage bonus. Bonus vs. fear and emotion effects, like marriage right!? LOVE IS NOT A SPELL. CEREMONY IS SO BAD.
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Paizo published it, and it's otherwise quite good. Lots of good flavor, story feats, traits, drawbacks, plot hooks and other nice d% tables.
EDIT: Here's a link if you want to hurt your brain like Dominus.
T_T
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Paizo published it, and it's otherwise quite good. Lots of good flavor, story feats, traits, drawbacks, plot hooks and other nice d% tables.
EDIT: Here's a link if you want to hurt your brain like Dominus.
T_T
Some of the domain ones aren't that bad. Like many of the spells people complain of - it's not a spell you take on a combat day. But a +1 or +2 sacred bonus on attack/damage rolls against all evil creatures for multiple days cast just before heading into a dungeon... yes please!
Wow Ceremony is actually a super impressive 1st level spell.
Value of time = value of scroll of mirror polish - value of polishing materialsThe value of a person's time varies from person to person, and in this case it depends on the situation you're in.
Just in case anyone was actually going to apply that formula as a means of evaluating time: it was a joke.
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Yeah, for Ceremony, it can do several things that are normally above first-level spells, and though a lot of the effects are unimpressive, there are a few serious gems, especially considering duration when augmented.
Enlarge is, yes, a great level 1 spell. Choke a combat point with your enhanced reach. Ever seen an enlarged fighter using what was already a reach weapon, with Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes? Yeah, good luck getting close enough to him to take any advantage of that -2 to AC...
There are many useless, weird, and absurd spells in the game that do so little for their level that I can't imagine people ever taking them (I don't even mean just in terms of munchkined combat usefulness... there's non-combat spells where I'm like, Really? Someone who can cast spells of that level decided that was a spell that needed to exist?).
Probably the one I find most ridiculous is Pup Shape. Has anyone ever used this? I don't mean that snarkily-- I'm asking if anyone has ever found this useful or seen it used in a game.
My parties druid is a fan of pup shape, a lvl 3 spell can save a much higher transport through plants spell, teleport spell, etc. A large animal companion, a rangers large animal companion, and horses all reduced in size and carried by the party or put in a bag of holding, plus, how fun is it to get a large animal into a dungeon or a boss room.
The druid also fought a duel with an animal lord and not wanting to hurt the animals cast pup shape offensively on huge creatures that were interfering with line of sight.Highly situational, requires higher level spells to make it necessary (or useful), but it is far from useless.
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Ceremony seems like a great tool for a GM, actually. A lot of those effects seem like the sort of thing that pops up during certain events in adventures.
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Yes, the attack and damage versions are decent…if you can spare 8 hours to cast it without interruption AND if you pay "You may spend 10 Goods, Labor, or Influence or 2 Magic to create a larger ceremony…". If your GM is accommodating, you could just hand-wave that part and pay straight gold for the spell, but if your GM thinks multiple days worth of having a +2 attack and +2 damage that stacks with almost all other buffs… Well, most GM's would probably just ban the spell outright, or relegate it to NPC's only.
I also want to point out that you can't just pick whichever ceremony you want to perform; you can only pick the ones that are not only in line with your Deity's domains, but they have to be the 2 that you already chose to focus on. That means: Desna only gets 1 good domain (Good, granting extra attack and damage against evil foes); Abadar only gets 1 (Nobility); Gozreh is out of luck, etc. As it is, Ceremony may be a good Cleric or Warpriest spell, but only the craziest Oracle would use up a precious spell-slot on it even if they did have the "right" domains. Only 12 of the effects have any practical use, with 4 of those being variations on the same thing. 12/39 is pretty bad, in terms of usefulness.
I really really like the idea of this spell, but its execution is mind-boggling.
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You're still suddenly a huge target with a crap AC.
And the polearm wielding fighter/barbarian with combat reflexes now has a 20' reach.
That is a substantial gain in battlefield control. The barbarian may not even care about the lost AC, especially if he an invulnerable rager.
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hmmm... pup shape gives them -4 to STR, but I don't read nothing there that says they'll stop being dangerous... a pup shaped dire lion still pounces and rakes, albeit iwth lower damage dice
Lower damage die - and no accuracy. Not just from the -4 strength (cancelled out by the size difference), but they lose most of their HD.
It'd be an especially great spell for an evil party who would have no compunctions at killing the now 8-10hp animal.
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Yes, the attack and damage versions are decent…if you can spare 8 hours to cast it without interruption AND if you pay "You may spend 10 Goods, Labor, or Influence or 2 Magic to create a larger ceremony…". If your GM is accommodating, you could just hand-wave that part and pay straight gold for the spell, but if your GM thinks multiple days worth of having a +2 attack and +2 damage that stacks with almost all other buffs… Well, most GM's would probably just ban the spell outright, or relegate it to NPC's only.
I also want to point out that you can't just pick whichever ceremony you want to perform; you can only pick the ones that are not only in line with your Deity's domains, but they have to be the 2 that you already chose to focus on. That means: Desna only gets 1 good domain (Good, granting extra attack and damage against evil foes); Abadar only gets 1 (Nobility); Gozreh is out of luck, etc. As it is, Ceremony may be a good Cleric or Warpriest spell, but only the craziest Oracle would use up a precious spell-slot on it even if they did have the "right" domains. Only 12 of the effects have any practical use, with 4 of those being variations on the same thing. 12/39 is pretty bad, in terms of usefulness.
I really really like the idea of this spell, but its execution is mind-boggling.
I thought it sucked?
Now it's so good that GMs will ban it?
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True Strike is a very awkward spell to use. It basically limits you to making one attack every other round, it only affects the first attack made, and it is a personal spell on the spell list of someone who can often avoid making attack rolls entirely.
Until you can make it quickened... Then it becomes something that is quite useful.
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Yes, the attack and damage versions are decent…if you can spare 8 hours to cast it without interruption AND if you pay "You may spend 10 Goods, Labor, or Influence or 2 Magic to create a larger ceremony…". If your GM is accommodating, you could just hand-wave that part and pay straight gold for the spell, but if your GM thinks multiple days worth of having a +2 attack and +2 damage that stacks with almost all other buffs… Well, most GM's would probably just ban the spell outright, or relegate it to NPC's only.
I also want to point out that you can't just pick whichever ceremony you want to perform; you can only pick the ones that are not only in line with your Deity's domains, but they have to be the 2 that you already chose to focus on. That means: Desna only gets 1 good domain (Good, granting extra attack and damage against evil foes); Abadar only gets 1 (Nobility); Gozreh is out of luck, etc. As it is, Ceremony may be a good Cleric or Warpriest spell, but only the craziest Oracle would use up a precious spell-slot on it even if they did have the "right" domains. Only 12 of the effects have any practical use, with 4 of those being variations on the same thing. 12/39 is pretty bad, in terms of usefulness.
I really really like the idea of this spell, but its execution is mind-boggling.
To be fair, 12/39 is a much higher fraction of usefulness than what is generally found in Paizo books in total. Remember that this game rewards system mastery. It feeds the "Aha!" moment in your brain when you find the lynch-pin that makes your entire character concept viable.
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How did a thread about the most useless spells become a discussion centered about what some people don't like about some of the best spells in the game?
True Strike: I play a lot of wizards and I almost never prepare this, but when I do, I have a reason (like, I must-must land this Ray attack on that high-Dex Baddie!). It's actually very useful. It's just not useful if your yardstick for useful is "do X damage per turn, in the smallest amount of turns possible".
To answer the OP's question, I've always felt that Hold Portal was rather silly. It should really be called "Moderate Reinforcement of Portal".
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How did a thread about the most useless spells become a discussion centered about what some people don't like about some of the best spells in the game?
I'm with you. Most of the spells people are complaining of are either.
1 - Situationally awesome - but bad outside of their situation of choice. (True Strike etc.)
2 - Not intended to be combat spells - therefore they suck in combat. (Illusionary Wall, Ceremony, etc.)
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Looking for crappy spells and no one has mentioned skinsend?
I honestly have an aneurysm just reading it.
Your skin leaps off your body and does stuff with half your hitpoints while you are helpless. Anyone can come and stab you and you are dead. If someone prevents your flimsy wizard skin from returning while it's out on the town, you wake up flayed (at 0 hp and unable to heal) and have to get a regeneration or heal spell to fix it.
If it gets destroyed, you're dead!
There are like two pros for this spell, and endless cons.
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True Strike is a very awkward spell to use. It basically limits you to making one attack every other round, it only affects the first attack made, and it is a personal spell on the spell list of someone who can often avoid making attack rolls entirely.
Until you can make it quickened... Then it becomes something that is quite useful.
Or you use it with siege engines. They cannot be fired every turn anyway.
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Yes, the attack and damage versions are decent…if you can spare 8 hours to cast it without interruption AND if you pay "You may spend 10 Goods, Labor, or Influence or 2 Magic to create a larger ceremony…". If your GM is accommodating, you could just hand-wave that part and pay straight gold for the spell, but if your GM thinks multiple days worth of having a +2 attack and +2 damage that stacks with almost all other buffs… Well, most GM's would probably just ban the spell outright, or relegate it to NPC's only.
I also want to point out that you can't just pick whichever ceremony you want to perform; you can only pick the ones that are not only in line with your Deity's domains, but they have to be the 2 that you already chose to focus on. That means: Desna only gets 1 good domain (Good, granting extra attack and damage against evil foes); Abadar only gets 1 (Nobility); Gozreh is out of luck, etc. As it is, Ceremony may be a good Cleric or Warpriest spell, but only the craziest Oracle would use up a precious spell-slot on it even if they did have the "right" domains. Only 12 of the effects have any practical use, with 4 of those being variations on the same thing. 12/39 is pretty bad, in terms of usefulness.
I really really like the idea of this spell, but its execution is mind-boggling.
For Abadar - The Protection ability seems pretty good. A +2 Sacred Bonus to AC and the ability to cast Sanctuary once? Not bad. Nobility, though, is even better - +2 to hit and to damage.
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Probably the one I find most ridiculous is Pup Shape. Has anyone ever used this? I don't mean that snarkily-- I'm asking if anyone has ever found this useful or seen it used in a game.My parties druid is a fan of pup shape, a lvl 3 spell can save a much higher transport through plants spell, teleport spell, etc. A large animal companion, a rangers large animal companion, and horses all reduced in size and carried by the party or put in a bag of holding, plus, how fun is it to get a large animal into a dungeon or a boss room.
The druid also fought a duel with an animal lord and not wanting to hurt the animals cast pup shape offensively on huge creatures that were interfering with line of sight.
Highly situational, requires higher level spells to make it necessary (or useful), but it is far from useless.
Okay, wait a minute - maybe it's just me but isn't Pup Shape insanely over-powered? It's a 3rd level spell that's basically a save-or-die. If the target fails its save, it's reduced to only 1 hit die and takes a -4 penalty to four different attributes (including Con). Yeah, your party has to make a Will save to attack it (unless you're evil) but with three or four of you, at least one should make it. Then, splat.