Most worthless spells


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Cevah wrote:
taks wrote:

1 cu. ft. per 2 levels... holy moly! How much do you have to drink to get that effect? A 10th level caster creates 5 freaking 1/4 bbls of the stuff... the whole party should be drinking on it all day, IMO.

EDIT: fixed my math.

I figured you need to drink a pint. That is, 8 oz. Same size as a glass of orange juice.

cup is 8 oz.

pint is 16 oz.

;)


Goblin_Priest wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Another worthless spell for most players is Antimagic Field. It is can only be cast by classes which rely heavily on magic for defense, is centered on you (shutting down most of your defenses), and only negatively effects things which you can stay within 10' of. Considering almost everything worth effecting with this has flight available by the time you can cast it, you basically devolve combat into a snowball fight.

I've made good use of Anti-Magic Field on a magus and by UMDing on a fighter.

The fighter even had (EX) flight.

But... doesn't that negate the bracers of (+physical), the armor enhancements, the weapon enhancements, etc.?

Fighters might not need to actually cast spells, but they are still heavily reliant on magic.

Well, in theory the fighter would UMD it when primarily battling something which relies more on magic for defense than the fighter does for offense. e.g. losing a +4 enhancement bonus to hit and a +6 to strength is a lot easier when your opponent was relying entirely on defenses like shield, mage armor, blink, stoneskin, contingency (plane shift to private demiplane), etc. Only issue is waiting roughly an hour and a half after the fight or risking finding one of several monsters which don't need magic to be great (like dragons).


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Paradozen wrote:
Goblin_Priest wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Another worthless spell for most players is Antimagic Field. It is can only be cast by classes which rely heavily on magic for defense, is centered on you (shutting down most of your defenses), and only negatively effects things which you can stay within 10' of. Considering almost everything worth effecting with this has flight available by the time you can cast it, you basically devolve combat into a snowball fight.

I've made good use of Anti-Magic Field on a magus and by UMDing on a fighter.

The fighter even had (EX) flight.

But... doesn't that negate the bracers of (+physical), the armor enhancements, the weapon enhancements, etc.?

Fighters might not need to actually cast spells, but they are still heavily reliant on magic.

Well, in theory the fighter would UMD it when primarily battling something which relies more on magic for defense than the fighter does for offense. e.g. losing a +4 enhancement bonus to hit and a +6 to strength is a lot easier when your opponent was relying entirely on defenses like shield, mage armor, blink, stoneskin, contingency (plane shift to private demiplane), etc. Only issue is waiting roughly an hour and a half after the fight or risking finding one of several monsters which don't need magic to be great (like dragons).

Fun fact: the scenario cannot be recreated in PF without houseruling. Forcecage references wall of force, which is immune to the AMF spell.


Shield and mage armor cannot be cast when you suddenly need them.
They are most valuable when used to create magic items.


Sacrifice(Book of the Dammed I)- wait why do I need a spell to do this? This spell is overall bad. You might use it once in a while for big summons but sorcerers shouldn’t learn this and wizards shouldn’t pay to add it to their spellbook. To break this spell down in short. Payment is useless as we are using planar binding or summon monster in order to have a valide target in the first place. Enticement will never be used unless we literally have 1 possible chance to call something. Anything that you need to reinforce your circle against means that you absolutely need the bonus to bargaining more. And since if they make the saving throw they don't come anyway failing only means you burn more spell slots. Bargain isn’t a bad use but the bonuses are really crappy unless you are willing to pay way too much. Heck by RAW we can make much cheaper offers to the target to get bonuses to our charisma check without using this spell and get a bigger bonus


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Goth Guru wrote:

Shield and mage armor cannot be cast when you suddenly need them.

They are most valuable when used to create magic items.

The duration of Mage Armor is measured in hours. It's not a spell you cast at the start of a fight, but at the start of the day. Most mages I've seen enjoy Mage Armor's benefits quite often; it may be one of the most cast spells in a given mage's career.

Shield is more difficult to leverage, until you quicken it or spell combat it. That said, my caster types just buy a +3 mithral buckler to obviate the need for it. My magi might use it, depending on circumstance.

So Mage Armor is most definitely not useless. You have a better case for Shield.


Ryzoken wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:

Shield and mage armor cannot be cast when you suddenly need them.

They are most valuable when used to create magic items.

The duration of Mage Armor is measured in hours. It's not a spell you cast at the start of a fight, but at the start of the day. Most mages I've seen enjoy Mage Armor's benefits quite often; it may be one of the most cast spells in a given mage's career.

Shield is more difficult to leverage, until you quicken it or spell combat it. That said, my caster types just buy a +3 mithral buckler to obviate the need for it. My magi might use it, depending on circumstance.

So Mage Armor is most definitely not useless. You have a better case for Shield.

I'm even willing to buy a wand of mage armor and activate it multiple times over the course of an adventure. And then hit the monk with it, and then the druid's animal companion ...

Grand Lodge

Anti-magic field is useful if you know that your mundane and extraordinary abilities out weigh the opponents, but most players min/max with like 50 magic items and wouldn't dream of fighting without them.


AMF was what let my oracle win against a certain dryad boss that the GM advanced twice because we were clowning everything else. Prior to casting it, her AC was so high nobody could even hit her thanks to that cha-to-AC ability. It's niche, but definitely not most useless.

Dark Archive

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Don't forget an Abjuration-resistant Spellbreaker Inquisitor. At Level 20 have the wizard cast AMF and be immune.


Jader7777 wrote:

Anti-magic field is useful if you know that your mundane and extraordinary abilities out weigh the opponents, but most players min/max with like 50 magic items and wouldn't dream of fighting without them.

Once, our party was confronted by an enemy party of (N)PCs, and we had just gained a new level. I realize they are full of magical gear, and thus heavily reliant on them. I cast Mage's Disjunction.

Half an hour later, the DM finally finished recalculating all their stats he had taken hours to prepare beforehand. We swiftly annihilated them.

Long story short, Mage's Disjunction is now banned from our games. XD

I don't remember anyone ever using Anti-magic field at our table. I would assume it would be met with similar disapproval. Instantly shutting off dozens of spells and items is just a headache to compute.


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Daemon Ward is by far the worst spell in the entire game. What is it and why is it so bad? Well you see, it is like Death Ward, except it only works against daemons. Now while extremely situational, it could be forgiven if it was a (much) lower level spell, but no, it is exactly the same. Same spell level (4th, for most classes), same casting time, same duration, almost completely overlaps with Death Ward in terms of spell list (of all the classes that can learn Daemon Ward, all but 2 [3 if you count the S/W list as being two different ones] can already learn Deathward), and, as a final "frak you and all you find holy", it come with a material component of 50 GP OF POWDERED SILVER PER CASTING something the original, far superior spell doesn't have as a component, BECAUSE YOU CAST THE ORIGINAL FOR FREE!

If someone can come up with an actual use for this tragic waste of ink and paper, enlighten me, because I sure as Abbadon can't.


I feel like Shatter should be a really cool spell yet somehow in actual games the opportunity to use it never eventuates.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shatter


Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I feel like Shatter should be a really cool spell yet somehow in actual games the opportunity to use it never eventuates.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shatter

It is selective, but consider what objects you could shatter. Early on, you can sunder an opponents weapon for a quite respectable damage, or an opponents component pouch or divine focus. Later, you can shatter support beams of buildings or bridges, hefty doorways, statues, and so on. The application is as far as your imagination takes it.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I feel like Shatter should be a really cool spell yet somehow in actual games the opportunity to use it never eventuates.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shatter

It is selective, but consider what objects you could shatter. Early on, you can sunder an opponents weapon for a quite respectable damage, or an opponents component pouch or divine focus. Later, you can shatter support beams of buildings or bridges, hefty doorways, statues, and so on. The application is as far as your imagination takes it.

I believe there is a will save versus the sunder effect, in which case other spells are usually more effective. Although at low levels against a foe without a magic weapon I agree that it is a neat idea.

Regarding the support beam idea, our table rules that they are not separate objects to the building or bridge that they support and therefore can't be specifically targeted by the spell.


Goblin_Priest wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Another worthless spell for most players is Antimagic Field. It is can only be cast by classes which rely heavily on magic for defense, is centered on you (shutting down most of your defenses), and only negatively effects things which you can stay within 10' of. Considering almost everything worth effecting with this has flight available by the time you can cast it, you basically devolve combat into a snowball fight.

I've made good use of Anti-Magic Field on a magus and by UMDing on a fighter.

The fighter even had (EX) flight.

But... doesn't that negate the bracers of (+physical), the armor enhancements, the weapon enhancements, etc.?

Fighters might not need to actually cast spells, but they are still heavily reliant on magic.

Eh that's a myth. A fighter can function pretty well without such things if built even remotely well. Most of the characters are able to work within acceptable ranges without them.

Here's a common example:

Dire Crocodile - CR 10
AC 21
HP 138

A 10th level Fighter with an 18 strength and no magical bonuses and say weapon focus, +2 from Fighter Training has a +17 base attack bonus. Meaning they hit on a 4 and/or a 9.

Even a Young Red Dragon is at a disadvantage against the same Fighter. As the Red loses a lot of its utility. The only problem is the DR which there are tons of non-magical ways around.

People who are "good" at Pathfinder have a tendency to get +'s so high that there isn't even a *chance* of failing against appropriate leveled enemies.

Take our Fighter from above, give him a +2 strength, a +2 Magical weapon, and Dueling Gloves and he's suddenly got a +21 (or better) to hit. Enemies that he'd mathematically face tend to have an AC between 20-22.


Yea... why would you use AMF against a crocodile...?

The buffs aren't just for the primary attacks... AMF is a lvl 6 spell at lowest. A sorcerer would need to be lvl 12 to cast it. A fighter of that level though doesn't have just 1 attack. He has 3. The +X on the weapon, the bracers of strength, tomes of stength or any other buffs aren't meant to help him hit on his +12 BAB attack. They are meant to help him on his +7 and +2 ittirative attacks.

The damage output per turn is quite different between a debuffed single hit and three fully buffed hits. Especially for two handers...

And that's without considering the resource dump for a fighter to put so many of his few ranks into UMD, and the risks of mishaps... After all the DC is 31 at the lowest. With 12 ranks, and 8 charisma, the fighter needs 20 to succeed and has a 50% mishap chance. Unless you start dipping into a class that has it as a class skill, take skill focus, and waste a ton of other resources into bumping your cha, I have a hard time imagining a build that can reliably pull this off. And I can't imagine a viable build...


Goblin_Priest wrote:

Yea... why would you use AMF against a crocodile...?

The buffs aren't just for the primary attacks... AMF is a lvl 6 spell at lowest. A sorcerer would need to be lvl 12 to cast it. A fighter of that level though doesn't have just 1 attack. He has 3. The +X on the weapon, the bracers of strength, tomes of stength or any other buffs aren't meant to help him hit on his +12 BAB attack. They are meant to help him on his +7 and +2 ittirative attacks.

The damage output per turn is quite different between a debuffed single hit and three fully buffed hits. Especially for two handers...

And that's without considering the resource dump for a fighter to put so many of his few ranks into UMD, and the risks of mishaps... After all the DC is 31 at the lowest. With 12 ranks, and 8 charisma, the fighter needs 20 to succeed and has a 50% mishap chance. Unless you start dipping into a class that has it as a class skill, take skill focus, and waste a ton of other resources into bumping your cha, I have a hard time imagining a build that can reliably pull this off. And I can't imagine a viable build...

Well, you probably wouldn't use it against a dire crocodile, but you may find one before the spell expires unless your party is cool with waiting more than 1.5 hours after a fight (not unreasonable, but sometimes the party would rather keep its 10 min/lv buffs). As for UMD, a half elf can have a reasonable bonus by level 11 (the earliest the wizard could cast the spell). 11 ranks+ 4 from dangerously curious trait+ 6 from skill focus -1 if you really need to dump charisma give a +21, more if you find room for a 12-14 charisma. Still not auto-activating it, but pretty good overall.


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Paradozen wrote:
Well, you probably wouldn't use it against a dire crocodile, but you may find one before the spell expires unless your party is cool with waiting more than 1.5 hours after a fight (not unreasonable, but sometimes the party would rather keep its 10 min/lv buffs).

I'm not fully tracking the point of this conversation, but are you implying that AMF isn't dismissible and you have to wait out the full duration once you cast it? Because it is and you don't. I'm pretty sure the usual intent in using an AMF is to cast it immediately before engaging a target where it gives you an advantage (like grappling a high level spellcaster) and then you can dismiss it after if you'd rather use your magical abilities/items against other foes.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Well, you probably wouldn't use it against a dire crocodile, but you may find one before the spell expires unless your party is cool with waiting more than 1.5 hours after a fight (not unreasonable, but sometimes the party would rather keep its 10 min/lv buffs).
I'm not fully tracking the point of this conversation, but are you implying that AMF isn't dismissible and you have to wait out the full duration once you cast it? Because it is and you don't. I'm pretty sure the usual intent in using an AMF is to cast it immediately before engaging a target where it gives you an advantage (like grappling a high level spellcaster) and then you can dismiss it after if you'd rather use your magical abilities/items against other foes.

The Croc was pulled out as it was an at-hand CR 10. I also brought up a young Red. The point stands. Well constructed characters don't need those very specific +'s to function.

It's just too many players want to remove all chance of failure. Like crafters who refuse to craft something if there is *any* failure chance.


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Some of us are incapable of rolling higher than a 5 whenever it's actually important.

Lord knows it's why I got good at minmaxing.


Goblin_Priest wrote:
And that's without considering the resource dump for a fighter to put so many of his few ranks into UMD, and the risks of mishaps... After all the DC is 31 at the lowest. With 12 ranks, and 8 charisma, the fighter needs 20 to succeed and has a 50% mishap chance. Unless you start dipping into a class that has it as a class skill, take skill focus, and waste a ton of other resources into bumping your cha, I have a hard time imagining a build that can reliably pull this off. And I can't imagine a viable build...

Why did you give the fighter a scroll? A staff would be better. At 5280 (crafting) for a staff of Antimagic Field at CL11 with 5 charges per cast is only a DC 20 for UMD. He only needs +9 on the d20 to make it work. If he spends a feat (skill focus), he can knock off 6 to only need +3. Add in a trait to make it a class skill and it is automatic. All all for a staff that is less expensive than 7 scrolls. [5280/825=6.4] The party wizard can then recharge at will.

You don't need to wait 110 minutes, since it is dismissable.

/cevah


Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Regarding the support beam idea, our table rules that they are not separate objects to the building or bridge that they support and therefore can't be specifically targeted by the spell.

Wow, you must love Climb skill / Spider Climb etc, so you can just span 5' hallways from the moulding and if an enemy targets you just say, "Nah, I'm just supporting the walls/roof".


Quote:

Why did you give the fighter a scroll? A staff would be better. At 5280 (crafting) for a staff of Antimagic Field at CL11 with 5 charges per cast is only a DC 20 for UMD. He only needs +9 on the d20 to make it work. If he spends a feat (skill focus), he can knock off 6 to only need +3. Add in a trait to make it a class skill and it is automatic. All all for a staff that is less expensive than 7 scrolls. [5280/825=6.4] The party wizard can then recharge at will.

You don't need to wait 110 minutes, since it is dismissable.

/cevah

Well... didn't think of it? I never use staves tbh.

More likely to succeed this way for less gold, but also requires the wizard investing time, feats, spells known, and spells per day for this, on top of the fighter's investments.

Is it doable? I guess. Is it worth it? The answer is campaign specific I guess.


Goblin_Priest wrote:
Quote:

Why did you give the fighter a scroll? A staff would be better. At 5280 (crafting) for a staff of Antimagic Field at CL11 with 5 charges per cast is only a DC 20 for UMD. He only needs +9 on the d20 to make it work. If he spends a feat (skill focus), he can knock off 6 to only need +3. Add in a trait to make it a class skill and it is automatic. All all for a staff that is less expensive than 7 scrolls. [5280/825=6.4] The party wizard can then recharge at will.

You don't need to wait 110 minutes, since it is dismissable.

/cevah

Well... didn't think of it? I never use staves tbh.

:-)

Goblin_Priest wrote:

More likely to succeed this way for less gold, but also requires the wizard investing time, feats, spells known, and spells per day for this, on top of the fighter's investments.

Is it doable? I guess. Is it worth it? The answer is campaign specific I guess.

The wizard does not invest a feat if you purchase a custom staff (~10K).

If you are purchasing scrolls, you are already spending a lot of money on scrolls. If the fighter is using this technique often, the wizard should be happy to give a spare slot to the staff.

/cevah


Trinam wrote:

Some of us are incapable of rolling higher than a 5 whenever it's actually important.

Lord knows it's why I got good at minmaxing.

QFT


UMDing an antimagic field if you have managed to close with a flying caster can be situationally really, really good. You both end up prone and damaged on the ground together with no magical equipment or spells at all, and they basically get one chance to defensively cast wall of force or one of a small handful of spells, or they're going to get shredded by full attack since they don't have the action economy to get out of the field.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Worst spell for the level? Salvage, almost always worse than Foresight.


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I think people have forgotten this is for spells with completely no use, rather than spells with situational uses. It's fairly easy to recognize the situational uses of an antimagic field, and it definitely isn't useless. Like many spells, it has it's place when you need it.

But I must admit, I definitely think salvage is in 'definitely not worth being 9th level' territory of spells. No idea why it's 9th. It's not even instantaneous, so you can hardly use it for mid-nautical combat purposes. It seems to not even list what it's material component actually is. And by that point, I'm pretty sure a ship is largely irrelevant....

Dark Archive

Trinam wrote:

Some of us are incapable of rolling higher than a 5 whenever it's actually important.

Lord knows it's why I got good at minmaxing.

At one very important juncture in Skull and Shackles my d20 just would not roll over a 9. This lasted for an entire 12-hour session.


Having died to a Phantasmal Killer before as a 9th level Cleric, I completely understand.


Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I feel like Shatter should be a really cool spell yet somehow in actual games the opportunity to use it never eventuates.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shatter

It is selective, but consider what objects you could shatter. Early on, you can sunder an opponents weapon for a quite respectable damage, or an opponents component pouch or divine focus. Later, you can shatter support beams of buildings or bridges, hefty doorways, statues, and so on. The application is as far as your imagination takes it.

I believe there is a will save versus the sunder effect, in which case other spells are usually more effective. Although at low levels against a foe without a magic weapon I agree that it is a neat idea.

Regarding the support beam idea, our table rules that they are not separate objects to the building or bridge that they support and therefore can't be specifically targeted by the spell.

But the building is an unattended object so you just shatter the entire building with no save.


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Maximum ten pounds per level. A balsa wood one man shack might qualify, little else will.


That's a restriction. It only effects that much no matter what it's part of.


Goth Guru wrote:
That's a restriction. It only effects that much no matter what it's part of.

No.

Quote:
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.

The single object targeted can't weigh more than 10 pounds per caster level. You don't get to partially destroy something bigger. If you fail the weight requirement you fail the targeting requirement.


LuniasM wrote:
Trinam wrote:

Some of us are incapable of rolling higher than a 5 whenever it's actually important.

Lord knows it's why I got good at minmaxing.

At one very important juncture in Skull and Shackles my d20 just would not roll over a 9. This lasted for an entire 12-hour session.

Two sessions ago, I prep an ambush that's meant to be fairly challenging, but not threatening. The fighter is a two-handed with a few cleave feasts and a scythe, and many mooks didn't have many HP.

We were both greatly dismayed as he kept rolling utterly terrible and, one by one, his allies fell. In the end he finally managed, after chugging up a ton of drugs, to break his curse and swiftly save the party (and break the apocalyptic ritual the orcish shaman was enacting just next to them).

Good times. :P


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
That's a restriction. It only effects that much no matter what it's part of.

No.

Quote:
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.
The single object targeted can't weigh more than 10 pounds per caster level. You don't get to partially destroy something bigger. If you fail the weight requirement you fail the targeting requirement.

Then the spell is totally worthless.


Quote:


Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.

Your loophole is here. If you can make an object weightless, it won't matter what size it is.


Snowblind wrote:


Did I mention Daze Monster is a second level spell. It is competing with glitterdust and hideous laughter.

Daze Monster (lvl 2) (VSM) 1 round, Will Save, SR

Is also competing against Oppressive Boredom (lvl 2) (V,S) 1 rd/lvl or until save, Will Save SR and
Scare (multiple creatures & will partial)
and Blindness at the same level (though Blindness targets fortitude, it's permanent).


every wiz/sorc shapeshift spell with range personal. Unless you happen to be playing Mythic and take the path ability that makes your shapeshifted BAB for natural attacks = to your caster level, AND are the strongest wizard on the planet (was a thing I almost did) shapeshifting yourself for combat benefits is practically worthless, and if you need it for an escape or form of movement, you have other better spells you could be casting. Shapeshifting in pathfinder is best left to melee druids, wizards are just pathetic at it.


Not entirely true. They get good use from Magi, Druids, and the occasional Dragon Disciple. Plus, they can be cast on your familiar, who admittedly might not be that strong, but some aren't too bad. Besides, you have the Brown-Fur Transmuter Arcanist, who can cast personal-only transmutation abilities on others for the cost of 1 Arcane pool point. Then, there's the Bonded Mind feat tree, which, costing two feats, allows for personal-range spells to be cast on an ally, who only needs one feat.

TL;DR?
The polymorph spells are very useful, even if we assume that any build of sorcerer or wizard will find them absolutely useless.


There are also some good shapes you can turn into for defense which let you cast (dragons, monstrous humanoids, undead, even elementals if your DM is ok with it)


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The weight limit hardly makes Shatter is useless. 30 pounds (the minimum) includes locks, manacles and most other restraints.

I think Mirror Polish is one of the worst. Previous posters have mentioned you might possibly do the polish by other means, but the real problem is the main mechanical use would be against gaze attacks, which would be very niche but usable for a divine caster who can call it up when they know they are entering the Lair of The Medusa.... Or that's how you'd expect it to be used. The spell is Wizard and Witch only, neither of whom will carry the needed metal object (except maybe a mithiral buckler).


Plant shape spells.

The rules grant little useful abilities with them, being slow and don't hit as hard as the beast shape, while being lv 5 to lv7 spells.


I remember the one time my players used Zone of Truth. They had captured an enemy Elven spellcaster (who had a really good Will save). They surrounded him threateningly, and then the party Cleric cast Zone of Truth. The spellcaster made his roll. The PCs all failed. It was a much less successful interrogation session than they had hoped it would be.

Grand Lodge

Mirage Wolf wrote:

Plant shape spells.

The rules grant little useful abilities with them, being slow and don't hit as hard as the beast shape, while being lv 5 to lv7 spells.

There are some niche situations where being a plant is mechanically advantageous, but generally the forms you can take and the abilities you inherit are pretty lame. Generally unless you know the setting is going to call for it or you're facing someone who is trying to paralyze/stun/sleep/polymorph/mind control you a lot there isn't much use.

In home games I'd grant them some of the more extraordinary abilities.


Mirage Wolf wrote:

Plant shape spells.

The rules grant little useful abilities with them

Jader7777 wrote:
generally the forms you can take and the abilities you inherit are pretty lame

I think that weedwhips are one of the most terrifying Medium polymorph forms in the game. You gain three tentacle attacks with a brutal nauseating contact poison, and you get all the benefits of their 15-ft. reach without being limited by the extraordinary ability that prevents them from taking attacks of opportunity.


Avoron wrote:


I think that weedwhips are one of the most terrifying Medium polymorph forms in the game. You gain three tentacle attacks with a brutal nauseating contact poison, and you get all the benefits of their 15-ft. reach without being limited by the extraordinary ability that prevents them from taking attacks of opportunity.

It's a wizard/sorcerer/alchemist spell though. The minimum level you obtain it would be at level 9 and above, even with a druid you can only get it at level 8 through wild shape.

Since it uses fortitude save, it probably might work on totally unprepared enemy casters with low fortitude saves.

Might be decent if you gain it at level 4(it's from a cr2 creature so doesn't seem overpowered even at lv3 and may stay relevant for a few levels).

Otherwises, just cast lv3 stinking cloud is better in every possible way other than duration. (the spell doesn't even get resisted by spell resistance)

*plants shape also don't grant immunity unlike element body and other spells

Element body III specifies this.

You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form.

None of this had been said with plant shape.

The only thing plant shape got is this line.

Plant Shape II

This spell functions as plant shape I except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Large creature of the plant type. If the creature has immunity or resistance to any elements, you gain energy resistance 20 to those elements.

At level 11 with 1 slot of level 6 spell, or a level 10 druid, the shape can finally gain energy resistance of 20.


Well, you don't want to be using it as a wizard. You want to use it as a druid or a wood oracle, so it lasts for hours per level and you don't have to waste spell slots. Leshy Wardens get access by level 6, but I think the best strategy is just taking four levels of druid then going into a martial class and grabbing Shaping Focus. A Dex-based attack of opportunity build could use those 15-foot tentacles to devastating effect.

And stinking cloud doesn't even begin to compare. It lasts rounds per level instead of all day, it can't move around with you, it has a lower save, it can't selectively target your enemies, it can't force multiple saves every round, it can't nauseate creatures mid-move to interrupt their turns...

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