I am wanting to build a natural attacking character for flavor, but would like it to be semi-competent at combat.
Looking for a race where I can pick up Claws and a Bite attack. I know that Tengu gets those, but they are fairly small damage. Any way to increase them a bit? Half Orc can pick up the Bite attack, but how can I pick up claws?
As far as class goes, what is a good option. I was considering Rogue or Slayer (to be a skill monkey) and for the Sneak Attack bonus under the assumption they would apply to each attack. Example, claw plus sneak attack, claw plus sneak attack, and bite plus sneak attack. If the sneak attack bonus is simply a one time thing per round, then I am open to additional class options.
I believe I read somewhere that Ranger might be an option. I would look into Barbarian as claws/bite/horns can be attained fairly easily (and is an option) however I would rather not be dependent on Raging to gain these attacks.
Any ideas, or links to other threads on natural attacks?
Go with a Tengu Slayer. You are correct on how the sneak attack works on the additional attacks. Also, the damage dice itself doesn't matter near as much as your static bonuses do. If you have a 16 strength Tengu, dealing 1d3+3 damage with up to three attacks, before sneak attack, the comparison of having any of those attacks deal 1d4 or 1d6 is negligable. You could also take a 2-level dip in Barbarian, grab the Lesser Fiendish Totem Rage Power, and you'll also be able to have a gore attack when you rage.
Yes, Tengu have a penalty to constitution, but having three natural weapons always available is nice. If you went with a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor with the Tengu, you could capitalize on their Wisdom bonus instead, while still getting sneak attack and Studied Target.
Also, keep a backup weapon in case you come across DR/Cold Iron, DR/Silver or DR/Adamantine, Amulets of Mighty Fists are ludicrously expensive compared to weapons of similar power.
Ms. Pleiades wrote: Amulets of Mighty Fists are ludicrously expensive compared to weapons of similar power. If you have only one natural weapon. With two it's even, plus 0.5 STR bonus over offhand weapon and no attack penalty. With three, AoMF is 50% ahead.
This is PFS yes?
Keep in mind, the only way to legally take feats such as Improved Natural Attack is via the Ranger Combat Style.
This limits your class options, assuming you want to keep the damage semi relevant, to Slayer and Ranger. Otherwise, natural attack damage stays fairly low (1d4-1d6 for most of them)
Currently Legal PFS ways to gain natural attacks:
Tengu, Bites and option for claw.
Half Orc, bite
Kitsune, bite
Alchemist, feral mutagen
Barbarian, Beast totem/fiend totem, animal fury
Bloodrager, many bloodline claws
Druid, wild shape
Ranger, natural combat style
Slayer, natural combat style
Skald, beast totem/fiend totem, animal fury, special archetype which grants a limited wild shape
Summoner, aspect class ability
Sorcerer, bloodlines/spells
Wizard, spells
There is also a special thought I had, warpriest with WF on their racial natural attacks.
Half-orc bloodrager with the Abyssal bloodline is pretty hard to beat.
Nyaa wrote: Ms. Pleiades wrote: Amulets of Mighty Fists are ludicrously expensive compared to weapons of similar power. If you have only one natural weapon. With two it's even, plus 0.5 STR bonus over offhand weapon and no attack penalty. With three, AoMF is 50% ahead. Well, until iteratives are brought in. Comparing it to TWF, it is still fairly strong (3 attacks at full BAB vs 4 attacks at -2/-2/-7/-7). Slightly less valuable to full BAB characters (who can eventually get upwards of 6-7 attacks, but at decreasing accuracy), but completely wonderful for 3/4 BAB ones like rogues. Particularly during the level range of PFS. And the loss of your amulet of natural armor is not quite as bad during those level ranges too (maybe use one of the feats you didn't spend on TWF to grab better armor proficiency?)
Typically, the best methods of getting natural attacks is either through tengu, who can have 3 natural attacks from the start, or by grabbing a race with a bite attack and then taking the ranger/slayer natural combat style to get claws at level 2. Most other PFS legal options (ignoring Druid, which is kind of a different flavor) have problems with how long they last.
Krell44 wrote: I am wanting to build a natural attacking character for flavor, but would like it to be semi-competent at combat. Are you set on it being semi-competent at combat? Would it be acceptable if it were devastating, terrifying monster-lord of combat? A minister of grisly death that delivers more pain than the Post Office delivers letters and faster than FedEx delivers packages?
Krell44 wrote: Looking for a race where I can pick up Claws and a Bite attack. I know that Tengu get those, but they are fairly small damage. Any way to increase them a bit? Yes. I like Improved Natural Weapon and Feral Combat Training. I like to multiclass a lot, so I like Monastic Legacy. With FCT, your base Damage for 1 of your Natural Attacks will no longer be 1d3 (1d4 for half orcs) but rather your Monk Unarmed Strike damage. INW will raise that damage by 1 size category. The Natural Attack you pick could be doing a base 2d6 by level 6 and 2d8 by level 13, level 12 if you take a 4th level in Monk.
At level 1, a Tengu melee character with 14 Strength would do 1d3+2/1d3+2/1d3+2 for an average DPR of 12 compare that with a long sword 2d6+3 for 10. Give your Tengu a longbow for supreme flexibility. Shooting when enemies are far away, tearing them up with natural weapons when they are close up. Against an opponent with Damage Reduction, like a Skeleton, this Tengu will be boned, because that DR applies to EACH of the 3 attacks, but strategic planning all a matter of compromise.
Sneak Attack is good. To guarantee the Sneak Attack Bonus, I like Dirty Tricks. Get the Quick and Great dirty trick feats. Make your opponents Blind, so they lose their Dex Mods and you get your Sneak Attack. If you are fighting a monster with Blindsight, then make them Deaf instead: no problem. If you are fighting a monster with Scent, then cast Negate Aroma on yourself. Maybe get a Wand. You were talking about levels in Ranger anyway.
Here's a thought. If you want to develop a Natural Attack and Sneak Attack Damage, maybe you could take the Feats Sap Adept and Sap Master. You'll do a whole lot of bonus damage with your Sneak Attack. The only problem is that you can only use those 2 feats with Blunt Weapons, and most natural attacks aren't. Feral Combat Training lets you apply to your natural attacks "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and unarmed strikes are blunt weapons, but I'm not sure that that qualifies as an effect that augments an unarmed strike. In fact, by RAW, I'm pretty sure it doesn't, since bluntness is a base quality of the weapon rather than an effect that augments it. With 2 levels in Alchemist, you can grow a Tentacle--bludgeoning damage--and that solves that problem. Tentacles are usually secondary natural weapons, but not if it's your only Natural Weapon, and not if you apply FCT to your Tentacle.
Dafydd wrote: Keep in mind, the only way to legally take feats such as Improved Natural Attack is via the Ranger Combat Style. Yes. Important point.
Also, FCT and INW can only be applied to 1 natural attack each, and I do recommend you stack them on a single natural attack, since they do stack. Applying them to each natural attack you get will cost 3 feats each, and and if this is for a Dafydd is correct that this is to be a Pathfinder Society Character, it won't even be legal for you to take INW more than once unless you craft your build in very special ways. I have worked out an inexpensive method for applying your preferred Natural Weapon Damgage to each and every one of your Natural Attacks if you would like to hear it.
lemeres wrote: Nyaa wrote: Ms. Pleiades wrote: Amulets of Mighty Fists are ludicrously expensive compared to weapons of similar power. If you have only one natural weapon. With two it's even, plus 0.5 STR bonus over offhand weapon and no attack penalty. With three, AoMF is 50% ahead. Well, until iteratives are brought in. Comparing it to TWF, it is still fairly strong (3 attacks at full BAB vs 4 attacks at -2/-2/-7/-7). Slightly less valuable to full BAB characters (who can eventually get upwards of 6-7 attacks, but at decreasing accuracy), but completely wonderful for 3/4 BAB ones like rogues. Particularly during the level range of PFS. And the loss of your amulet of natural armor is not quite as bad during those level ranges too (maybe use one of the feats you didn't spend on TWF to grab better armor proficiency?)
Typically, the best methods of getting natural attacks is either through tengu, who can have 3 natural attacks from the start, or by grabbing a race with a bite attack and then taking the ranger/slayer natural combat style to get claws at level 2. Most other PFS legal options (ignoring Druid, which is kind of a different flavor) have problems with how long they last. I think iteratives are overrated. Each successive iterative is at a -5 compared with the last. Hardly worth the effort to get extra attacks if they hardly ever hit.
Rather than weep for lost iteratives, I'd get Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes via 2-4 levels in Monk Master of Many Styles and get 5 more attacks/round at the expense of 3 feats (assuming a ST of 14 and a Dex of 16, quite doable for a PFS character).
If you still can't live without your iteratives, you might play a Tengu without Claws, so you can wield a Bastard Sword as a Martial Weapon instead. Use Bastard Sword and Shield. Apply FCT and INW to your Bite Attack, and with FCT, you can make the Snake Fang Attacks of Opportunity with your Bite Attack and your regular attacks with your sword. And since AoO's happen outside your round, you won't suffer the -5 penalty of combining Natural and Manufactured weapons. You can take 2 Weapon, making your full round attack action Unarmed Strike/Sword. Remember Monk Unarmed Strikes count as both manufactured and Natural Weapons for the purposes of effects that enhance or improved manufactured or natural weapons, so the MUS counts as a light, manufactured weapon.
You can get a Gore attack with a Mammoth Helm, a Hair Attack with a level--I like 2--in White Haired Witch, 2 more--albeit secondary--natural attacks with a Tentacle Cloak. I can't pull off the top of my head the name of a magic item that also gives Talon attacks, but I bet there is one. If you throw in a Monk Unarmed Strike, 2 with the 2 Weapon Feat, in with all those Natural Weapons, then there are no -5 penalties because Monk Unarmed Strikes count as natural weapons for the purposes of effects that improve natural weapons. So your Natural Attacks won't get iteratives, but your Monk Unarmed Strikes still will, and they blend with your Natural weapons like peanut butter blends with jelly. And all those lovely attacks benefit from the Amulet of Mighty Fists.
I'm forgetting how to create the link. But I offered a description of my character build concept in the thread called Cinamatic Combat Maneuver Specialist Advice. It's also in the thread called WHW's Prehensile hair and Final Embrace.
I would probably try to get rage. If you want claws while not raging perhaps something like Barbarian/Slayer could work well. If you want more skill focus Ranger/Skald is much the same but with less damage/hp and more utility.
Power Attack is your best friend here. With three primary natural attacks at level 1 and a 14 or higher strength it really doesn't matter if they are d3s or d4s because they all get +4 or better in static bonuses.
I find the best thing to combine with natural attacks is a reach weapon. It makes it hard to close in on you, and it can be dropped as a free action if you are in position to get a full attack. If you can't get a full attack it does more damage than any one of your natural attacks would have.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I think iteratives are overrated. Each successive iterative is at a -5 compared with the last. Hardly worth the effort to get extra attacks if they hardly ever hit.
Rather than weep for lost iteratives, I'd get Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes via 2-4 levels in Monk Master of Many Styles and get 5 more attacks/round at the expense of 3 feats (assuming a ST of 14 and a Dex of 16, quite doable for a PFS character).
If you still can't live without your iteratives, you might play a Tengu without Claws, so you can wield a Bastard Sword as a Martial Weapon instead. Use Bastard Sword and Shield. Apply FCT and INW to your Bite Attack, and with FCT, you can make the Snake Fang Attacks of Opportunity with your Bite Attack and your regular attacks with your sword. And since AoO's happen...
OF course. There is a reason why natural attacks are viable when they have such problematic features (20/x2 crit, no special materials, no ability to two hand).
The ability to have every hit go at full BAB is comparable to a high crit weapon in TWF. It is certainly more friendly to 3/4 BAB classes. All of those iteratives mostly matter to classes with very high accuracy, such as a fighter with weapon training, weapon focus, and dueling gloves, or a ranger facing their favored enemy. Those classes tend to have enough pluses that they have a somewhat decent shot with the -7 attacks, and possibly a vague shot with the -12 attacks.
Of course, I am also wary of that whole monk kicking thing added on, since it brings a lot of problems (mostly penalties and multiclassing in a game that highly encourages staying with 1 class), brings back the need for TWF feats, and generally seems silly.
Gregory Connolly wrote: I would probably try to get rage. If you want claws while not raging perhaps something like Barbarian/Slayer could work well. If you want more skill focus Ranger/Skald is much the same but with less damage/hp and more utility.
Power Attack is your best friend here. With three primary natural attacks at level 1 and a 14 or higher strength it really doesn't matter if they are d3s or d4s because they all get +4 or better in static bonuses.
I find the best thing to combine with natural attacks is a reach weapon. It makes it hard to close in on you, and it can be dropped as a free action if you are in position to get a full attack. If you can't get a full attack it does more damage than any one of your natural attacks would have.
Ooh, Power Attack. If you have a character with lots of natural attacks that he can use with no attack penalty, then maybe you can afford to take a little attack penalty in order to reap the Power Attack damage bonus.
Good idea, Mr. Connolly!
Ha, ha! How about being a Halfling gathering up natural attacks with Feral Mutagen for starters? Then he can not only take Power Attack, but Risky Striker too! I think the damage penalty for being small is partially offset by the attack bonus, but it will be well-offset by the Risky Striker Feat.
With a even 1 level in Alchemist, you may eventually be able to purchase a Wand of Monstrous Physique and Polymorph into a 4-Armed Sahaugin with 4 claw attacks.
And--I have to say it--how about Druids? Have you heard of the Monktopus?
In my opinion, these are the three best class options for fighting with natural weapons.
Alchemist
Barbarian/Bloodrager
Druid
All of these can be very powerful. The first step is deciding what else you want your character to be able to do besides fighting with natural weapons.
Natural weapon fighting is, however, weakened slightly in PFS because of the lack of Vivisectionist and the difficulty of getting Improved Natural Attack.
Best natural attacker is a boar shifter, which I believe requires a boon for PFS. Gore hoof hoof, trait for the adopted orc bite, slayer for the nat wpn style for claw claw.
I guess tiefling requires a boon now, too. They could get to claw claw bite with the adopted orc thing too.. Guess tengu is the way to go now if you're not a shifter, don't have or want the orcs of golarion bite trait, and don't want to be limited by rage or bloodline rounds..
Avoron wrote: In my opinion, these are the three best class options for fighting with natural weapons.
Alchemist
Barbarian/Bloodrager
Druid
All of these can be very powerful. The first step is deciding what else you want your character to be able to do besides fighting with natural weapons.
Natural weapon fighting is, however, weakened slightly in PFS because of the lack of Vivisectionist and the difficulty of getting Improved Natural Attack.
I definitely like taking a few levels in Alchemist. I've never tried Barbarian or Bloodrager builds. Some of them look promising. Although I must admit to a personal prejudice against Barbarians on philosophical grounds. Actually, I've been grumpy about the existence of the Barbarian character class ever since it first appeared in Unearthed Acrana in the 80s.
I like Vivisectionist, too, but there are ways around the problem. And the difficulty in getting INA in PFS does complicate the build, but it can be done.
Also, there are other ways to get super damage without Sneak Attacks. I've demonstrated a few on the threads I've referenced.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Actually there was a related post on Sap Master...there are several advantages to the Tengu option.
For bypassing mundane type (bludgeon/slash/pierce) DR claws are slash/bludgeon and bite are all 3...which means skeletons and zombies are no problem...well except for the taste.
FYI I posted a suggested Sap build that uses the Tengu and Slayer. But there's no reason why you couldn't drop the Sap Master entirely and just go all in with the Tengu attacks.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rt7n?Help-with-magic-items-for-a-sap-rogue#9
The -2 con doesn't hurt quite as much since you have d10 hit dice plus decent armor options. The adds for favored target and sneak alone come to +2+3d6 per strike by 9th level. Or +6+9d6 if your full attack hits. +54+18d6 for my Sappy build...and oh yeah the 1d3/1d4/1d4.
That's not too shabby at 9th.
FYI a 9th level Tengu Slayer Sap Master build snapshot full attack is:
Plus you are a full BAB martial class so when your natural attacks don't suit, you pick up a handy backup weapon. Or a bow.
I also had a druid hippo build but I don't think this is what the OP was looking for (+15 vs. AC, 16d8+15 Vital Bite at 9th)
EDIT: I should add my builds may not quite have the numbers of others because I prefer single class no dipping. But then you keep access to your full class abilities as a bonus...plus less time trying to explain the combinations every session.
If you are going for a natural attacker my advice would be a skinwalker of some flavor or another. The best for what you are trying to accomplish would be either A: Wereboar kin or B: Werebat kin. Wereboar kin Barbs can at second level have 5 natural attacks. Two hoof, two claw (via ragepower) and a gore attack. Now The reason I mentioned werebatkin is their ability to eventually turn into a dire bat at will. This nets them large size, bite attack, fly speed, +4 STR, and +4 natural armor. Not to mention the utility of being a normal diminutive bat at will as well which is great for not getting hit and hiding and such.
The best way I've found to do a Sap Master natural attack build is to go Catfolk Master of Many Styles 1/Scout 4/Vivisectionist X. I made the build for level 10.
You can use Vestigial Arms to trade out your iterative unarmed strikes for two more claw attacks from Feral Mutagen.
You can use Feral Combat Training and Pummeling Charge to attack with all four of your claws on a charge, and all of those attacks are sneak attacks because of your scout ability.
And, because of Vicious Claws and Sap Master, each of your claw attacks deals 10d8+10 sneak attack damage.
All of that at level 10. The DPR comes out to over 200, using the guidelines from the DPR Olympics thread.
Oh, and if you want to go the Vital Strike route, bloodrager can do that a bit better than druid can. But wild shape lasts longer, so there's that.
I'll look for your Druid hippo build. Here's a Druid build based on a character build proposed by Lord Markov in the thread "Most Powerful Monk." I put in some of my own flavor, and I made it PFS Legal.
Oh, yeah. It's a Monktopus
I envision her as being a suntanned blonde elven surfer girl named Hana Dory
1 Ranger1: Freebooter, Improved Grapple
2R1Druid1: Flotsam Domain
3R1D2: Combat Reflexes
4R1D3
5R1D4: Shaping Focus
So far this character is pretty mundane, maybe even a little underpowered, but as a Druid, she will still be helpful to the party.
6R1D4Fighter1 Weapon Focus Tentacle
7R1D4F1Monk1 Stunning Fist, Monk Weapons, Unarmed Damage 1d6, Wis Mod to AC, Snake Style, Feral Combat Training Tentacle
Now, she has become the party Tank. She will use her Wild Shape Ability to transform into a Giant Octopus. With Feral Combat Training, she will be able to treat her tentacle attacks as primary natural weapons, get her full Strength Mod. She will do her Monk Unarmed Damage instead of the 1d4 that Large Octupus Tentacles normally do. The base Unarmed Damage will be 1d6, but since she is Large, it goes up to 1d8. Giant Octopi have Grab and Constrict, so each tentacle strike can also be converted into a Grapple and do the 1d8 damage again. I'd have armor made for this character: octopus-shaped armor. Spiked, leather lamellar armor. Armor Spikes do bonus damage whenever the wearer scores a Grapple, normally 1d6, but again 1d8 because she is large.
8R1D4F1M2: Evasion, Snake Fang
I envision Hanna with a Dex of 16. She already has Combat Reflexes. So that may translate into an additional 4 more attacks/round. With FCT, her unarmed attacks of opportunity can be Tentacle attacks, again with Grab, Constrict, and Armor Spike Damage.
9R1D4F1M3: Still Mind, Maneuver Training, Monastic Legacy
With half her nonmonk levels counting as monk levels for the purposes of raising her MUS damage, her base damage goes from 1d6 to 1d8, 2d6 when she is large.
10R2D4F1M3: Improved Natural Attack
When she is large, her tentacle slap and subsequent constrict attacks were doing 2d6, now with Improved Natural Attack, it raises to 3d6.
11R2D4F1M3Alchemist1: Extracts, Mutagen, Bombs, Extra Bombs, Greater Grapple
By raising her Dex with the Mutagen, she can get an extra 2 AoO's/round. Greater Grapple improves her chances of scoring that Constrict.
12R2D4F1M4A1 Ki Pool Unarmed Damage1d10
Raised to 3d8 per tentacle slap and Constrict.
Rerednaw wrote: Actually there was a related post on Sap Master...there are several advantages to the Tengu option.
For bypassing mundane type (bludgeon/slash/pierce) DR claws are slash/bludgeon and bite are all 3...which means skeletons and zombies are no problem...well except for the taste.
FYI I posted a suggested Sap build that uses the Tengu and Slayer. But there's no reason why you couldn't drop the Sap Master entirely and just go all in with the Tengu attacks.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rt7n?Help-with-magic-items-for-a-sap-rogue#9
The -2 con doesn't hurt quite as much since you have d10 hit dice plus decent armor options. The adds for favored target and sneak alone come to +2+3d6 per strike by 9th level. Or +6+9d6 if your full attack hits. +54+18d6 for my Sappy build...and oh yeah the 1d3/1d4/1d4.
That's not too shabby at 9th.
FYI a 9th level Tengu Slayer Sap Master build snapshot full attack is:
** spoiler omitted **
Plus you are a full BAB martial class so when your natural attacks don't suit, you pick up a handy backup weapon. Or a bow.
I also had a druid hippo build but I don't think this is what the OP was looking for (+15 vs. AC, 16d8+15 Vital Bite at 9th)
EDIT: I should add my builds may not quite have the numbers of others because I prefer single class no...
I like Sap Master and Tengu.
I was looking at hippos in the Bestiary. They look pretty cool, but I didn't see the awesome you must have seen. Show us your build.
Pretty please!
If you're using your unarmed damage instead of your natural weapon damage, Improved Natural Attack won't help you. Other than that, looks nice.
Also, I believe Rerednaw was referring to Behemoth Hippopotamuses, which get the best natural weapon damage for a Huge animal wild shape/beast shape.
Avoron wrote: The best way I've found to do a Sap Master natural attack build is to go Catfolk Master of Many Styles 1/Scout 4/Vivisectionist X. I made the build for level 10.
You can use Vestigial Arms to trade out your iterative unarmed strikes for two more claw attacks from Feral Mutagen.
You can use Feral Combat Training and Pummeling Charge to attack with all four of your claws on a charge, and all of those attacks are sneak attacks because of your scout ability.
And, because of Vicious Claws and Sap Master, each of your claw attacks deals 10d8+10 sneak attack damage.
All of that at level 10. The DPR comes out to over 200, using the guidelines from the DPR Olympics thread.
Oh, and if you want to go the Vital Strike route, bloodrager can do that a bit better than druid can. But wild shape lasts longer, so there's that.
Ooh, you're not saying that the Vestigial Arms Alchemal Discovery gives you an extra attack, are you? It's been FAQ'd, and it doesn't.
You could get 1 Vestigial Arm and have it use a shield, giving you both hands free to Claw with and raising your AC at the same time. That's been mostly adjudicated to be kosher. Game Designers have said on these forums that If you have 2 Weapon, have Improved Unarmed Strike, and are using another weapon and shield, you can make a weapon attack, an unarmed attack, and still gain the benefit of your shield bonus to AC.
If you take 5 levels in a Psionic Class called Aegis, you can get 2 more arms that you can make extra attacks with. Or you might acquire a Wand of monstrous Physique and Polymorph into a 4 armed sahaugin. There is a Magical Beast that Druids might Wild Shape into, called something like an Auvimorax. They get 4 Claw attacks.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I'll look for your Druid hippo build. Here's a Druid build based on a character build proposed by Lord
...
Yes Avoron was correct, the Hippo of choice was the Behemoth model.
Requires Wildshape for Huge.
Didn't think anyone would want to see it, but here's my build thread for your reference:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rrvc?PFS-Druid-big-single-attack#1
Note I had +17 as his attack, forgot the -2 for size. Downside is that the build does require buffing with Strong Jaw (damage dice drops to 8d8 without). Upside is that it is a standard attack so you can do it every round. Another upside (for me) is that the math is easy. No rolling a handful of d20's and then applying situational mods on the fly...and finally, it's a single class build. No dump stats, dips, archetypes, artificial colors, flavors or additives.
And oh yeah, you can go with an animal companion or domain. I didn't factor that in at all. If an AC, your DPR probably gets a boost. (Hippo pet of course). With domains you get more options as well.
And his DPR is not in the Olympic realms. DPR only comes to around 60's or so. Which I figure is fine for PFS.
Plus you get to chomp on the bad guys as a Hippo! How cool is that?
EDIT: He had 2 feat slots open...you could take Power Attack and Furious Focus for a slight DPR bump if needed. Or add some flavor/fluff instead.
Avoron wrote: If you're using your unarmed damage instead of your natural weapon damage, Improved Natural Attack won't help you. Other than that, looks nice. How come's that? Has there been a ruling? Feral Combat Training doesn't make the Natural Attack not a Natural Attack. It lets you use the Monk Unarmed Damage as the Base Damage instead of the other. Improved Natural Weapon lets your Weapon inflict damage as if you were 1 size bigger. I've checked the rules and the forums for reasons why these 2 feats shouldn't stack, and I haven't found any. If you have, please give me chapter and verse.
If what you are saying is right, then the characters I'm proposing would have to acquire Wands of Strong Jaw, which will let their natural attacks inflict damage as if they were 2 sizes bigger. There is a weapon enchantment that also makes the weapon damage 1 size up. I forget what it's called. I think Bashing or Impact. That would go on an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Scott: You can't use Vestigial Arm to get more attacks, but you can use it to switch out Attack A for Attack B as long as you have the same number.
Here's a post confirming that you can easily switch out manufactured attacks (your iterative unarmed strikes, in this case) for natural attacks on your Vestigial Arms. If you want more information, you can just read the whole thread, but I wouldn't recommend it. It's not very pleasant.
Anyway, I believe it is legal to exchange one attack for another with Vestigial Arms. What do you think of the rest of the concept?
And I've created a bloodrager build also based off of the Behemoth Hippo concept, but it's a bit more specialized for extreme damage, and much less versatile and reasonable.
The Core Rulebook has clearcut rules for Armor for Unusual Creatures. the PFS rules about not customizing magic items refers to special enchantments or special combinations of enchantments, putting Shatterspike on a +1 adamantine greatsword, for example. It doesn't refer to having armor made for you so your character can wear it. +2, spiked Hide Hippo Barding is still just +2 Hide armor as far as magic items rules go.
My first thought about your Hungry, Hungry Hippo Druid are the Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Great Cleave. Maybe work in an AoO build, too like Broken Wing Gambit with a level in Cavalier or 3 levels in Inquisitor. Did you have those already, and I just missed them?
Scott: Feral Combat Training lets you use either
a. your base natural weapon damage
or
b. your base unarmed strike damage
Improved Natural Attack increases a, but specifically has no effect on b. So if you use a, you get the benefits, but if you use b, it doesn't effect you at all. I'll look for other threads on this topic, but it seems sort of self-explanatory.
Wands of Strong Jaw are definitely your best bet. The Bashing enchantment is only for shields, and the Impact enchantment doesn't work on light weapons, which natural attacks are.
Oops, I just found Furious Focus
Avoron wrote: Scott: You can't use Vestigial Arm to get more attacks, but you can use it to switch out Attack A for Attack B as long as you have the same number. Yes. I agree with that.
Avoron wrote: Scott: Feral Combat Training lets you use either
a. your base natural weapon damage
or
b. your base unarmed strike damage
Improved Natural Attack increases a, but specifically has no effect on b.... I'll look for other threads on this topic, but it seems sort of self-explanatory.
Please do look for other threads on this topic, because I think it is oppositely self-explanatory.
paizo.com pathfinder PRD, Bestiaries, Monster Feats wrote: Improved Natural Attack... Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Monster Feats
If I were a Monk with Natural Attacks and Feral Combat Training, and my Base Damage for Unarmed Strikes were 1d8, if I then were the target of an Enlarge Person, my MUS damage would increase to 2d6.
So absent a special ruling, this feat can be used precisely the way an Enlarge Person Spell can be, letting you inflict your FCT-enhanced Hippo-bite damage as if you were 1 size bigger. It may be unpopular with some player-contributors to other threads, but I think the RAW is clear.
It seemed to be clear, but apparently there is some disagreement among the masses.
In my opinion, you just said the key phrase, "if I then were the target of an Enlarge Person, my MUS damage would increase to 2d6."
Enlarge Person increases your monk unarmed strike damage. Improved Natural Attack does not increase your monk unarmed strike damage. It increases your natural weapon damage.
If you aren't using your natural weapon damage and are instead using a specific number provided to you by a table, then whatever your natural weapon damage was doesn't matter. You use a different number instead, and that number is unaffected by Improved Natural Attack.
It's similar to how a warpriest's sacred weapon damage is unaffected by using an Impact weapon, because they choose between the weapon's normal damage and their sacred weapon damage.
At least, that's how I see it. Evidently other people disagree, and it doesn't matter all that much.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Oops, I just found Furious Focus FYI I knew there was a reason I didn't take Furious Focus in my original build...I thought I read somewhere you cannot FF with natural weapons, even when it is a single attack only.
So don't take it. :) Power attack is marginal with a single attack 3/4 BAB build. So you may want to fit in something else with those two feats. Personally I like Wild Speech (talking hippo) or even Eldritch Claws for an always-on while wildshaped DR Magic/Silver bypass.
Rerednaw wrote: Personally I like Wild Speech (talking hippo) or even Eldritch Claws for an always-on while wildshaped DR Magic/Silver bypass. Get a cheap intelligent item with the ability to talk, saves a feat slot.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
EgakuDrew wrote: Rerednaw wrote: Personally I like Wild Speech (talking hippo) or even Eldritch Claws for an always-on while wildshaped DR Magic/Silver bypass. Get a cheap intelligent item with the ability to talk, saves a feat slot. In a home game that works. My build was for PFS though (no Improved Natural Attack for example) which means you're broke and intelligent items are very hard to obtain (no custom items or intelligent items by default.)
Rerednaw wrote:
In a home game that works. My build was for PFS though (no Improved Natural Attack for example) which means you're broke and intelligent items are very hard to obtain (no custom items or intelligent items by default.)
I just noticed that Wild Speech is level 6 minimum, theres a spell from the Advanced Class Guide called Beastspeak, level 2 druid spell which does the same thing for the purposes of communication, quicker and cheaper.
I've seen alot of people try to get around these limits, I just remember the intelligent item being the most flavorful. I've had players utilize drow sign language, mage hand to write with, I had a gnome try and use haunted fey aspect and prestidigitation and ghost sound to try and communicate, but since none of these actually allow intelligible speech it was usually the players having a laugh trying to interpret what he wanted to say.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
EgakuDrew wrote: Rerednaw wrote:
In a home game that works. My build was for PFS though (no Improved Natural Attack for example) which means you're broke and intelligent items are very hard to obtain (no custom items or intelligent items by default.)
I just noticed that Wild Speech is level 6 minimum, theres a spell from the Advanced Class Guide called Beastspeak, level 2 druid spell which does the same thing for the purposes of communication, quicker and cheaper.
I've seen alot of people try to get around these limits, I just remember the intelligent item being the most flavorful. I've had players utilize drow sign language, mage hand to write with, I had a gnome try and use haunted fey aspect and prestidigitation and ghost sound to try and communicate, but since none of these actually allow intelligible speech it was usually the players having a laugh trying to interpret what he wanted to say. Yes...another example of spell > feat. Still 10 min/lvl is nice...and you get this before you even learn Wildshape at 4th and Natural Spell at 5th, Wild Speech at 6th (really 7th) so pretty spiffy. As long as it isn't an ambush situation.
Ranger 10/MoMS 2
Half-Orc (toothy)
It comes together late for a PFS game as 'Multiattack' does not become available until Ranger 10. But it has 3 primary natural attacks from level 2 onwards that give it decent DPR at low to mid game.
The key points are Feral Combat Training (Claws), Power Attack, Dragon Style/Ferocity, Power Attack. Supplement with TWF/ITWF if you'd like.
FCT allows your claws to use your 1d6 UAS damage.
With the new FAQ on Dragon Style/Ferocity your Claws should get 3:1 Power Attack ratio, your Unarmed Strikes get 2:1 and your Bite gets 1:1.
At level 12 your full-attack routine (just using BAB +/- TWF/Multiattack penalties) is;
Claws: +9/+9 (1.5 x STR & 3:1 Power attack)
UAS: +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (1.5 x STR & 2:1 Power Attack)
Bite: +9 (.5 x STR & 1:1 Power Attack)
Keep in mind that your first UAS or Claw attack of each round gets 2x STR.
An amulet of mighty fists powers all of your natural attacks so is actually very cheap.
I agree with Avoron, both on #1 Vestigial Arm and trading attacks, and #2 Improved Natural Attack not doing anything to improve your unarmed damage replacement from Feral Combat.
My go to:
4 Druid
2 Ranger (Natural combat style for Improved Natural Attack Gore)
2 Fighter Weapon Focus Gore
Shaping Focus
Large Arsinotherium
then
+2 Druid
Retrain into Cave Druid
Retrin Ranger INA Gore to INA Slam and Fighter Weapon Focus Gore to Slam
Medium Carnivorous Crystal or Immortal Ichor
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