Help with magic items for a sap rogue


Advice


I'm quite new to Pathfinder and the quantity of magic items is a bit overwhelming. I'm starting a sap rogue in a new campaign and wondering what magic items I should be aiming for.

I've seen lists of 'generally good always' magic items, but I'm wondering about any niche items that are specifically good for a two weapon sap rogue. Especially anything that enhances nonlethal or sneak attacks, and things that assist in getting more consistent sneaks/flanks (particularly full round attack sneak attacks!).

I'm also not sure what I would want to magic enhancements on the saps, I'm not seeing anything that synergizes at +1 so I guess it would just be some 1d6 element damage?

Also I suppose if there are any particularly useful nonmagical items for this type of character that would be nice to know about too :)

Thanks for any ideas.


A merciful short sword does 2d6 non-lethal and can do REAL damage if you want it to. A sap has quite a few foes it just doesn't work against.

There are various rogue build threads and rogue tactics threads explaining how to get the most Sneak attack, I'm not going to try and compile them because I am lazy and because I'd get it wrong (not an A1 super rogue builder here). But here's a tip for when you're up against things immune to non-lethal damage or sneak attacks and thus giving your character the finger:

-Combat maneuvers. You're chances of success are low, but with all-too-disposable whips and similar weapons you can trip or disarm from a distance while the big melee damage-dealer doles out the hurt.

-Alchemy. The tanglefoot bag almost never stops working. The few times it does you turn to holy water, the various energy-damage alchemical items (acid, fire, ice, lightning, even RUST is an option), or slipping around with Use Magic Device and a wand of cure.

-Stealth. You're supposed to be a great sneaker, so be sneaky. Hide, scout, make sure you have darkvision so you can do it without carrying a great big "I'm here" lantern everywhere.

And you're a rogue, so you're weak coming outta the gate. So don't expect too much.

Scarab Sages

I have to advise against a merciful Shortsword. Merciful Morningstar, fine, or Light Hammer if you want to finesse it, but the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats require a bludgeoning weapon and even with a merciful enchantment, Shortsword is still piercing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

OMG three pages...and website crashes...the one time I don't use notepad first all week.

Figures. ;)

Okay this time the short version.
Welcome to Pathfinder!

Advice:
Rogue is 3/4 BAB with less mitigation and lower defenses than comparable melee classes.
Two Weapon Fighting is mechanically rougher to bring up to speed compared to a single two-hander weapon style.
You will be challenged unless the GM made allowances.

What you need:
To hit.
Non-lethal damage.
Bludgeoning damage.
Flat-footed target.

Recommended feat chain:
Build comes fully online once you have Shatter Defenses.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shatter%20Defense s

Recommended rogue archetype:
Scout.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Sco ut

Note the Scout ability requires you moving, which means only 1 attack.
Two-weapon fighting requires a full attack which limits you to a 5 foot step.

Magic item-wise you need defense and to hit.
For a Weapon Finesse or Dex-based build you should pick up a Belt of Dexterity otherwise the Strength version.
04000 for a cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone for +1 Insight to hit.
05000 for Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier for +1 Luck bonus to AC and downgrade 1 crit/day to normal hit.
22400 for Celestial Armor. (start saving)

Suggestions (you don't have to as they may affect your concept, just here for reference.):

Alternative class choice: Slayer.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Slayer
No archetype, but other abilities make this class more viable. It's still roguish with a heavier
emphasis on martial abilities.

Go with a single two-hander weapon (Earthbreaker is good) instead of sap. Merciful enchantment for non-lethal.


Yeah I think I need blunt weps. Whip is an interesting backup idea, didnt think about them as theyre exotic but seems they can use Finesse. Tanglefoot bags seem pretty cool, I guess 50g per use isn't going to be much of an expense past the very early going?

Rerednaw wrote:

OMFG three pages...and website crashes...the one time I don't use notepad first all week.

Figures.

Nooo... :(


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think a tanglefoot bag makes a target flat-footed.
Making a target flat-footed is difficult. Going first in combat works. The Scout archetype mentioned above allows
you one such strike a turn. And of course Shatter Defenses...but that won't be for a while.


Rerednaw wrote:


Okay this time the short version.

I've gone with the Thug archetype as it fit the story of the character better, and it sort of fits with the whole feat line. Slayer is probably just a better class overall but I really want to get off a 30d6 nonlethal sneak attack round at lvl 9 :D

Rerednaw wrote:


Magic item-wise you need defense and to hit.
For a Weapon Finesse or Dex-based build you should pick up a Belt of Dexterity otherwise the Strength version.
04000 for a cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone for +1 Insight to hit.
05000 for Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier for +1 Luck bonus to AC and downgrade 1 crit/day to normal hit.
22400 for Celestial Armor. (start saving)

So really there are no awesome special niche items for the build? Just stack as much attack and defense as possible? :(


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
aimlessgun wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:


Okay this time the short version.

I've gone with the Thug archetype as it fit the story of the character better, and it sort of fits with the whole feat line. Slayer is probably just a better class overall but I really want to get off a 30d6 nonlethal sneak attack round at lvl 9 :D

Rerednaw wrote:


Magic item-wise you need defense and to hit.
For a Weapon Finesse or Dex-based build you should pick up a Belt of Dexterity otherwise the Strength version.
04000 for a cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone for +1 Insight to hit.
05000 for Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier for +1 Luck bonus to AC and downgrade 1 crit/day to normal hit.
22400 for Celestial Armor. (start saving)
So really there are no awesome special niche items for the build? Just stack as much attack and defense as possible? :(

There are several threads that bring up the mechanical issues inherent with the rogue class. So yes straight offense and defense are a priority.

Granted, in a home game with an understanding GM this may not be an issue. What setting are you playing in?

If it's Society...I'd actually consider a Tengu and focus on natural weapon attacks (Claw Attack alternate racial trait)...no TWF attack penalty and you're a three weapon fighter with claw/claw/bite. And as a nice kicker...bite and claw also count as bludgeoning attacks so they work with Sap Master...and you always have these weapons ready.

Here's kind of a roguey-item. The Spring-loaded wrist sheath. Makes drawing a weapon or item such as a wand a swift action. Useful in a surprise round or to help your actions economy.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wrist%20 sheath%20%28spring%20loaded%29

Gloves of Reconnaissance are nice.
Snakeskin Tunic if you want to have your belt slot used for something else...like a belt of con.
Eyes of the Eagle to help your Perception skill.
Ring of the Knight-Inheritor. +1 Protection and 1/day Bless Weapon to help bypass that tricksy alignment damage reduction.

If you have the funds, A Goz Mask in conjunction with an Eversmoking Bottle won't make the target flat-footed...but it will allow you to sneak attack all day long.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh I also forgot, Enforcer is a pretty much a must-have feat.

BTW if you went Slayer your progression would be something like this.

feat progression, Slayer, dex-based:

01-Enforcer
02-Weapon Training(WFocus)
03-DD
04-Finesse Rogue(Weapon Finesse)
05-Sap Adept
06-Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
07-Toughness or Iron Will
08-Trapfinding (why not)
09-Sap Master

A Tengu dex claw build with a 15(17) dex to start and +1 either 4th or 8th for an 18 dex at 9th, and wielding an agile, merciful amulet (18k gack) you'd be at:

KFCv2 build. Attack sequence and maths:

Swift Studied Target.
Full Attack. Use Enforcer after first hit.
atk: +9(bab)+4(dx)+1(wf-claw only)+2(studied) hit: 1d4(claw) or 1d3(bite)+4(dx)+3d6(sna)+3d6(sap master)+12(sap adept)+2(studied)

+15(+16 if claw) vs. AC, 1d3(1d4 if claw)+12+6d6 1 bite, 2 claws.
+15 vs. AC, 1d3+18+6d6 bite
+16 vs. AC, 1d4+18+6d6 claw
+16 vs. AC, 1d4+18+6d6 claw

(requires flat-footed foe)
First attack (before making them flat-footed) or if immune to non-lethal
1d3(1d4)+6+3d6
If immune to non-lethal and sneak attack
1d3(1d4)+6


Granted there are a lot of things this won't work on, but for valid targets, it's a fair amount of DPR.

Grand Lodge

A vicious merciful sap gets in an extra 3d6 nonlethal with only 1d6 nonlethal back at yourself.

Other then that, get the big 5 and you will be fine (armor shadowed asap, +1 mericful vicious sap, belt of probally dex but depends on rest of build, headband of your choice not that a rouge really needs it, cloak) of resistance


Haha Vicious is an interesting idea, I guess nonlethal damage heals easy.

Rerednaw wrote:


There are several threads that bring up the mechanical issues inherent with the rogue class. So yes straight offense and defense are a priority.

Granted, in a home game with an understanding GM this may not be an issue. What setting are you playing in?

I doubt it's going to be too punishing as pretty much everyone in the game is rather new :)

I was hoping there were items that overcame limitations in cooler ways I guess. Like only being able to attack once if you move during your turn sucks, was hoping for items like:

"Cloak of Shadowblink, 3/day as a swift action teleport next to an enemy within 50ft, your new position must cause the enemy to be flanked. This does not cause AoOp"

Spring sheath is pretty cool, and if I ever want to take that rogue talent which gives full stealth dmg (underhanded?) it would be great.

Quote:
Oh I also forgot, Enforcer is a pretty much a must-have feat.

Yeah I'm getting that at lvl 3, along with the Thug ability I'll at least be somewhat useful for debuffing things with Shaken and Sickened (those stack right?)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well it's a home game so there's no reason why custom magic items could not be invented. It's difficult to sneak in extra actions though there are a few methods. This is one of the reasons why someone who say focuses on a 2hander weapon tends to perform better than a two weapon style.

Simple math, two guys each with same stats and level.:
THF uses a greatsword. He has an 18 Str.
He has a +4 to hit from strength and does 2d6+6 on a hit.

TWF uses two short swords. He also has an 18 Str.
He has +4 to hit from strength, a -2 for TWF and does 1d6+3 with each sword. If both hit, 2d6+6 (see how that works?.) One advantage is he gets two chances to crit on a full attack. Also riders that are based per attack can trigger twice (such as sneak attack.) The downside is TWF gives penalties.

Where the difference really kicks in is when both characters MOVE and swing.

THF takes a move action and swings, he still gets +4 to hit and does 2d6+6
TWF takes a move action and swings, he gets a +4 to hit, but only does 1d6+3.

Add in the difference between a 3/4 BAB and a full BAB class and the disparity increases.

If you want extra attacks...haste via spell or boots of speed. You could take the speed enchantment on weapons but you are paying twice and it's a hefty cost.
Generally the only way to get extra attacks is with a full attack action. Well there's also Combat Reflexes and AoO's...but I don't think that's the path the OP is looking for.

If you are interested in the numbers, there is an average AC by level chart. Use that to see as a guide on how often your character will hit.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html#table-1-1- monster-statistics-by-cr

Hope this helps.


My Sap Master had a pair of Gloves of TrueStrike made...
1/day, but when you HAVE to hit!...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
NOLA Chris wrote:

My Sap Master had a pair of Gloves of TrueStrike made...

1/day, but when you HAVE to hit!...

Ring of Serene Contortions.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicRingsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ring%20of% 20Serene%20Contortions
Downside is that True Strike is your standard action.


Check out Improving Your Class With Items.

The Guide to the Guides! has 7 rogue guides listed (and 2 ninja).

A note about Shatter Defenses, it does not work as well for a 3/4 BAB character. If you go TWF, you take another hit to BAB. Be sure this is what you want. It is covered in one of the guides.

Vicious does damage to you, and since your AC and Con is likely not stellar, you don't have the HP buffer a high Con fighter in high AC has. However, if you have a DR vs. non-leathal, it can be great.

/cevah


Rerednaw wrote:


If you are interested in the numbers, there is an average AC by level chart. Use that to see as a guide on how often your character will hit.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html#table-1-1- monster-statistics-by-cr

So what is considered a decent hit chance? Looking at this, when the Enforcer/Shatter/Sap Master combo comes online at lvl 8 (though Greater TWF isn't until 9), enemies will average 21 AC. With +6 BAB, and let's assume I get a +2 dex belt so +6 from dex, and then weapon enhance and cracked green ioun stone is +2, then flanking and TWF penalty cancels out, so that's +14 on attacks? So around a 2/3rds chance to hit AC21.

Doesn't sound terrible? Or is that terrible compared to most melee characters? And I guess as Cevah says the Shatter Defense combo might be inconsistent.

On another note, heard about an item that is a crappier version of the dream item I made up earlier
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/boots -jaunt
Guess you'd have to give up Boots of Speed though.

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