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Ok, I have a Catfolk Monk with Claw Attacks. He has Feral Combat Training which states:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
There was a FAQ post also saying that you would use the unarmed damage in place of the natural attack damage.
If you then take Improved Natural Attack it would improve the damage of said attack. I understand that INA says it does not work for Unarmed Strikes, but in the case above you are not making an Unarmed Strike, you are making a Claw attack. In the case above if your UAS was 1d8, it would make the Claw attack 1d8 and then INA would make it 2d6, correct?
Hmm, that seems to be a clever way to get around the INA limitation. Not bad (with an enlarge person and INA on a 20th lvl monk, you get to do 6d8 points of damage per hit).
prototype00
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Black- no. Feral Combat training lets you use your unarmed damage as your Natural attack damage. It is mostly a matter of which stacks first. If you add INA damage first it would take the 1d6 to 1d8 and if you IUD is 1d8 it is a wash, but if you add the IUD first taking the 1d8 then add INA it would bump it to 2d6.
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Hmm. So, you're essentially trying to get Improved Natural Attack to apply to your IUS via Feral Combat Training?
Let's look at the Feats in their full quotes, and go from there.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Improved Natural Attack (Monster)
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
Now that we got that out of the way, let's pick and pry out what matters in these paragraphs of feats/abilities. For the sake of this, let's say your Bite is 1d8 and your IUS is also 1d8.
"A monk's Unarmed Strike...treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance..." That's a good sign already. That already makes it eligible for INA. Now let's look at FCT. Well.. it's pretty much the whole line after "Benefit". That's also good qualification. Now let's look at INA. "Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms(not an unarmed strike)".
That stops it right there, as that feat is majorly specific in regards to this chain working. That right there pretty much ends it. You choose what it applies to as soon as you pick up the feat, not when you're in combat about to attack. When it comes to doing damage via FCT, you either choose your IUS damage at 1d8, or your Bite damage at 1d8. INA can apply to Bite to make it 2d6... but in this case it cannot apply to IUS, and then transfer over with FCT. Since you cannot initially apply INA to IUS, you're stuck. You can apply it to bite, and bite seems like the better option dice-wise with INA.
Close, but no cigar here.
My Advice: If you're going to mostly go Druid, then stick with INA and don't bother with FCT. If you're going to go more Monk than Druid, FCT is good to have for many reasons, and INA may or may not be worth the time.
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No, close. If you are attacking with a Natural Attack (Claws) feral combat training allows you to use the damage from your IUS in place of the normal natural attack. This means you are not making an unarmed strike, you are making a natural attack.
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html# _feral-combat-training
According to the PRD, which is a much more reliable rules source and not 3rd party, you are not making a IUS, you are making a natural attack. Since you are enhancing the damage from a natural attack with IUS you would then apply the INA bonus.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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If you are attacking with a Natural Attack (Claws) feral combat training allows you to use the damage from your IUS in place of the normal natural attack. This means you are not making an unarmed strike, you are making a natural attack.
I kinda hate nettling rules hair splitting like this.
No, you can't take advantage of Improved Natural Attack Bite when replacing your INA improved Bite with Unarmed Strike damage dice.
Pick one:
Unarmed Strike damage dice
INA Bite damage dice
Not to gainsay you James, but where in the feat description does it say that your claw stops being a natural attack (and augmentable with improved natural attack) when you apply "Effects that augment an unarmed strike" to it?
prototype00
To use the faq:
The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
And the feat:
you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
This might strike as splitting hairs but the use of the word can, rules-wise, is important. Because it means an entity of the natural attack's damage still exists. Therefore the use of INA(Claws) does not interact with FCT(claws) for the purpose of your damage.
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It seem s pretty clear that INA improves your Natural attack damage and that FCT REPLACES your Natural attack damage with your monk unarmed damage. I think the part that says you may use you monk unarmed damage in place of your natural attack damage says no, you either use your improved natural attack damage or you replace it with your unarmed strike damage.
Also based on your responses, it doesn't sound like your looking for an answer of weather or not you can do this, it sounds more like you just want someone to agree with you.
It seem s pretty clear that INA improves your Natural attack damage and that FCT REPLACES your Natural attack damage with your monk unarmed damage. I think the part that says you may use you monk unarmed damage in place of your natural attack damage says no, you either use your improved natural attack damage or you replace it with your unarmed strike damage.
The problem I see is that there's nothing in the feat or the FAQs on Feral Combat Training that specifies that it's a replacement. To quote the relevant FAQ.
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
It's still a natural attack, you're just applying an effects that augment unarmed strikes to said natural attack. At no point does it state that the natural attack is being replaced. It's possible that was the intent of the design team, but I'm not seeing anything in the rules that spells it out.
Might be worth FAQing, so I'll pose the question in a separate post for convenience.
| 11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Question: Does using the Feral Combat Training feat to increase a natural weapon's damage using effects that apply to unarmed strikes mean that the natural weapon can no longer be effected by the Improved Natural Attack feat?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm with MrTheThird. Feral Combat Training effectively allows you to replace the damage of your natural attacks with the damage of your unarmed strike. However, no one uses it for that. They use it because you can flurry with with your high damage bite that you gained from wildshaping into a hippo which is has greater damage than your unarmed strike. Or to allow you to apply rider effects from poison or similar things.
Improved Natural Attack would not increase the damage dealt while using Feral Combt Training to Flurry.
Not to gainsay you James, but where in the feat description does it say that your claw stops being a natural attackNo where, but improving your Claws and replacing your Claws with unarmed damage dice are two separate things.
... does it say anywhere in the rules that they are? I mean, fair enough if it does, but...?
prototype00
Not to gainsay you James, but where in the feat description does it say that your claw stops being a natural attackNo where, but improving your Claws and replacing your Claws with unarmed damage dice are two separate things.
... does it say anywhere in the rules that they are? I mean, fair enough if it does, but...?
prototype00
Seconding this point. Despite the all-caps "REPLACE" people keep yelling about in this thread, I don't see the word replace or any synonym thereof anywhere in the rules or relevant FAQs.
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Here is where I am coming from. I am the GM in the game. The player in my game is, right now, Catfolk Rogue (Scout) 5/ Monk 5. When using his claws to attack and he gains the benefit of 1d8 sneak attack vs the normal 1d6. His Unarmed Damage is currently 1d8, so it is better than his 1d6 claws. His damage output is way below the rest of the party, and when he came to me it seemed reasonable that they should stack, but, and yes I know herolab isn't always right, herolab doesn't stack them. I have house ruled that the damage will stack in this instance. The reason I made this thread was to really find out if my interpretation is correct or not. I honestly see both sides of the argument. Feral Combat training had a recent errata that allows the unarmed damage to enhance the damage to a natural weapon. I know before that errata there were people on both sides of that argument just as there are 2 sides to this one.
The thing is wether a rule is correct or not is not good to base on a specific character. Wether you allow a rules exception for a specific character to make your game more fun is a different issue.
Im of the view point, that you can take improved natural attack claws all you want. But the pre-defined UAS damage from monk doesnt change. Because ultimately that is the source of the Damage.
And the game rules wise is clear that you cant modify UAS with imp natural attack.
That said, when a player takes two 3/4 Bab Classes and multiclasses into them i dont think Imp natural attack will unbalance things if that specific char is given a rules exception.
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Spaarky, the answer is yes.
Feral combat monks can let everything stack between their unarmed strike class feature improvement and their natural attacks that they pick for feral combat.
Dash and Red Rage made an epically long post that spanned for almost a month for over 1000 replies till, I cant remember if it was Mike Brock or Sean K Reynolds made a final ruling on it.
go look up that post and you will find your answer, they used a teifling as the beginning race, but the end result is the same.
The thing is wether a rule is correct or not is not good to base on a specific character. Wether you allow a rules exception for a specific character to make your game more fun is a different issue.
Im of the view point, that you can take improved natural attack claws all you want. But the pre-defined UAS damage from monk doesnt change. Because ultimately that is the source of the Damage.
But where in the rules does it say that? There is nothing in the faq, or either feat description that says that once you use unarmed strike damage with your natural attack, you can't then apply feats that affect the natural attack to it.
In a home game, yes, you can limit it if you feel that it is too good, but the rationale isn't there in the rules.
And the game rules wise is clear that you cant modify UAS with imp natural attack.
This on the other hand is abundantly clear, but has no bearing on the natural attack.
prototype00
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Spaarky, the answer is yes.
Feral combat monks can let everything stack between their unarmed strike class feature improvement and their natural attacks that they pick for feral combat.Dash and Red Rage made an epically long post that spanned for almost a month for over 1000 replies till, I cant remember if it was Mike Brock or Sean K Reynolds made a final ruling on it.
go look up that post and you will find your answer, they used a teifling as the beginning race, but the end result is the same.
Can you narrow the field for us a bit?
Can you narrow the field for us a bit?Spaarky, the answer is yes.
Feral combat monks can let everything stack between their unarmed strike class feature improvement and their natural attacks that they pick for feral combat.Dash and Red Rage made an epically long post that spanned for almost a month for over 1000 replies till, I cant remember if it was Mike Brock or Sean K Reynolds made a final ruling on it.
go look up that post and you will find your answer, they used a teifling as the beginning race, but the end result is the same.
It only ran for some 173 and ended with the FAQ saying.
"Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/29/13"
And i am sure we can agree that it have no bering on the current subject.
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I am with Coraith. I would like to see a source and see the discussion. Sorry, I would like to take your word for it, but I just can't. I can honestly see both sides of the discussion as being valid sides, but this, to me at least and to some others, seems to be a grey area.
Cap Darling- I am aware of the FAQ but do you have a link to that thread?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7fk?Advice-Feral-Combat-Training#1
Here is the URL to it
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im not saying take my word for it, I said go search the forums for it.
do actual homework.
I told you who the two major players were in the discussion.
why not try looking them up, track down where they have posted, and find it.
quit trying to have someone else give you instant gratification, go do some work.
the fact that I even took the time to click on your question and respond to you should be enough.
im not saying take my word for it, I said go search the forums for it.
do actual homework.
I told you who the two major players were in the discussion.
why not try looking them up, track down where they have posted, and find it.quit trying to have someone else give you instant gratification, go do some work.
the fact that I even took the time to click on your question and respond to you should be enough.
the URL, to the thread in question, is a bit above this and it is not really relevant.
And the names you gave were incomplete.Homework?
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Dysfunction- I did a search of both names you provided and came up with nothing, before that I had looked at SKR's posting history and found nothing there either. I understand doing something for yourself and learning from it, in fact I am a huge fan of suggesting the same that you suggested. I just came up with nothing. That is why I sent you a PM asking where you had read this, because I am looking for something more than opinion's which we all have. I know we all have opinions and I wanted something more than that. Now after reading the above thread I disagree that it works that way.
Jadeite- the character in question cannot take that feat as it requires both human and being a fighter. I also do not think it works in the way you suggest it does.
This might be a bit nit-picky, but Improved Natural Attack says to choose a natural attack to increase by one die category.
The natural attack cannot be an unarmed strike.
Feral Combat Training says Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Improved Natural Attack sounds like it's augmenting an Unarmed Strike in this case.
Improved Natural Attack cannot be used on an unarmed strike.
Your claws count as Unarmed Strikes for the purpose of feats that have improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite and/or effects that augment an unarmed strike.
I would think that the "can" option listed in the feat means you can either gain the benefits, or not, but I don't think you can pick and choose which parts of the feat best benefit you.
The thing is wether a rule is correct or not is not good to base on a specific character. Wether you allow a rules exception for a specific character to make your game more fun is a different issue.
Im of the view point, that you can take improved natural attack claws all you want. But the pre-defined UAS damage from monk doesnt change. Because ultimately that is the source of the Damage.
But where in the rules does it say that? There is nothing in the faq, or either feat description that says that once you use unarmed strike damage with your natural attack, you can't then apply feats that affect the natural attack to it.
In a home game, yes, you can limit it if you feel that it is too good, but the rationale isn't there in the rules.
And the game rules wise is clear that you cant modify UAS with imp natural attack.This on the other hand is abundantly clear, but has no bearing on the natural attack.
prototype00
You can still apply effects to a natural attack if you use unarmed strike damage, Weapon Focus, Rend, Eldritch Claws, 2x power attack (if applicable), etc. but effects that augment natural attack base damage (ex. INA) wouldn't be relevant if you're not using the base damage from the natural attack.
You can still apply effects to a natural attack if you use unarmed strike damage, Weapon Focus, Rend, Eldritch Claws, 2x power attack (if applicable), etc. but effects that augment natural attack base damage (ex. INA) wouldn't be relevant if you're not using the base damage from the natural attack.The thing is wether a rule is correct or not is not good to base on a specific character. Wether you allow a rules exception for a specific character to make your game more fun is a different issue.
Im of the view point, that you can take improved natural attack claws all you want. But the pre-defined UAS damage from monk doesnt change. Because ultimately that is the source of the Damage.
But where in the rules does it say that? There is nothing in the faq, or either feat description that says that once you use unarmed strike damage with your natural attack, you can't then apply feats that affect the natural attack to it.
In a home game, yes, you can limit it if you feel that it is too good, but the rationale isn't there in the rules.
And the game rules wise is clear that you cant modify UAS with imp natural attack.This on the other hand is abundantly clear, but has no bearing on the natural attack.
prototype00
Sure! That sounds correct. If you could only point out the rule that you are quoting when you say that? Or the faq that has cleared this up? :)
I really don't mean to be contrary here, but trying say that one subset of natural attack altering feats work and another doesn't is really pointless when nothing in the feat description backs you up.
prototype00
Sure! That sounds correct. If you could only point out the rule that you are quoting when you say that?
Gladly.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
*emphasis mine
As you can see, the damage for the natural attack increases by one step, not the damage for an unarmed strike or the damage for a great sword.
Sure! That sounds correct. If you could only point out the rule that you are quoting when you say that?
Gladly.
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
*emphasis mine
As you can see, the damage for the natural attack increases by one step, not the damage for an unarmed strike or the damage for a great sword.
And with FCT the natural attack damage dice = unarmed damage dice at this point. So... why wouldn't INA work? I see nothing in the feat description (emphasis or no) that precludes this?
Perhaps I am not looking hard enough. You will have to try harder to point it out to me.
prototype00
And with FCT the natural attack damage dice = unarmed damage dice at this point.
Could you point out the rule or FAQ that you are quoting when you say that?
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
Seems obvious to me, but I suspect you will not agree with me on that.
How about you faq the OP's query and we can both get an answer eventually? :)
prototype00
Could you point out the rule or FAQ that you are quoting when you say that?And with FCT the natural attack damage dice = unarmed damage dice at this point.
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/29/13
[Edit] Ninja'd
So, basically, the Feral Combat Training allows you to use the Monk's Unarmed Damage Dice as his natural attack damage dice. Improved Natural Attack increases the damage dice by one step.
Question for those who say that Unarmed Damage Dice and INA don't stack: Do you allow Enlarge Person to increase the damage dice of the natural attack or unarmed strike? What about Lead Blades? Or Strong Jaw?
You claim that INA and Monk Damage don't stack because you think one replaces the other, but the same would apply with the above spells. If you cast Strong Jaw on a catfolk's claws, they increase in damage by two steps. If the Catfolk is a monk with Feral Combat Training, which damage dice do they use? The Strong Jaw Claws, or the Unarmed Damage Dice? Or do they combine, making it a Strong Jaw Unarmed Damage Dice?
My opinion is that they do stack. I mean really, is allowing INA and Monk damage dice to stack really going to break anything? The best I can think of is two very specific Monk builds (one a Monk/Druid and the other a Captain Falcon build I made awhile ago), both of which only really come into their own at high levels.
Catfolk (Human with racial heritage: Catfolk) nimble guardian. About on par (ish) with the monk/druid (though the Dire Tiger is no Allosaurus), straight monk for the goodies.
Other than that, nope, not really anything.
prototype00
So, basically, the Feral Combat Training allows you to use the Monk's Unarmed Damage Dice as his natural attack damage dice.
That's not what the FAQ says.
The FAQ says the Monk can "use [his] monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack.[/i]
There's no equivocation, it's simply "monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack."
If the Catfolk is a monk with Feral Combat Training, which damage dice do they use? The Strong Jaw Claws, or the Unarmed Damage Dice? Or do they combine, making it a Strong Jaw Unarmed Damage Dice?
If Strong Jaw is applied to his Unarmed Strike, the Monk has a choice between Natural Attack Damage, or Strong Jaw Unarmed Damage.
If Strong Jaw is applied to his Natural Attack, the Monk has the choice between Strong Jaw Natural Attack Damage or Unarmed Damage.If, and only if, Strong Jaw is applied to both his Unarmed Strike and his Natural Attack (i.e. two castings) does the Monk get the choice between Strong Jaw Natural Attack Damage and Strong Jaw Unarmed Damage.
Errrm, Strong Jaws applies to all natural weapons (and unarmed strike as it counts as both a manufactured and a natural weapon) with one casting.
Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is.
Not that I necessarily agree with your other assertions, but this one seemed like a simple enough rules misunderstanding.
prototype00
all in good time...
and that time can be right now...Dash...waiting on you.
too bad you cant /Tag someone on these posts...
The Dash you are waiting for is Dash Lestowe yes? I left the URL for that thread a bit up in this one.
Edit: and the Red Rage i belive is Red Ramage, yes?
So, basically, the Feral Combat Training allows you to use the Monk's Unarmed Damage Dice as his natural attack damage dice.That's not what the FAQ says.
The FAQ says the Monk can "use [his] monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack.[/i]
There's no equivocation, it's simply "monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack."
Except it doesn't say what you're claiming. The text you have in quote marks appears nowhere in the FAQ. Which, considering the fact that the FAQ was quoted in full just a few posts above yours, is a pretty astounding level of blatant dishonesty. Did you really think nobody would notice when the full FAQ text was put up three posts above yours?
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/29/13
Errrm, Strong Jaws applies to all natural weapons (and unarmed strike as it counts as both a manufactured and a natural weapon) with one casting.
Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is.Not that I necessarily agree with your other assertions, but this one seemed like a simple enough rules misunderstanding.
prototype00
My mistake. Since it applies to all attacks, it would be the 3rd option I presented.
That's not what the FAQ says.The FAQ says the Monk can "use [his] monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack."[/i]
There's no equivocation, it's simply "monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack."Except it doesn't say what you're claiming. The text you have in quote marks appears nowhere in the FAQ. Which, considering the fact that the FAQ was quoted in full just a few posts above yours, is a pretty astounding level of blatant dishonesty. Did you really think nobody would notice when the full FAQ text was put up three posts above yours?
Huh?
I said:
the Monk can "use [his] monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack.
Using quotation marks designating the quoted text and brackets around an altered pronoun that did not affect the meaning.
The FAQ says:
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to ?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/29/13
It's right there. The Design Team replied: "Yes." That's the way it works.
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all in good time...
and that time can be right now...Dash...waiting on you.
too bad you cant /Tag someone on these posts...
The Dash you are waiting for is Dash Lestowe yes? I left the URL for that thread a bit up in this one.
Edit: and the Red Rage i belive is Red Ramage, yes?
yup. those would be the two.
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Ok, I have a Catfolk Monk with Claw Attacks. He has Feral Combat Training which states:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
There was a FAQ post also saying that you would use the unarmed damage in place of the natural attack damage.
If you then take Improved Natural Attack it would improve the damage of said attack. I understand that INA says it does not work for Unarmed Strikes, but in the case above you are not making an Unarmed Strike, you are making a Claw attack. In the case above if your UAS was 1d8, it would make the Claw attack 1d8 and then INA would make it 2d6, correct?
Yes. INA would change a 1d8 normal damage of a natural attack (improved from feral combat training, with levels of monk) into a 2d8 attack.
These two feats do not limit each other in any way.
INA improves a natural attack. (changes the size of the weapon)
FCT improves a natural attack. (with levels of monk, changes the base damage of the weapon)
Neither say that you cannot apply the other.
Neither apply the "same bonus".
When you make an Unarmed Strike, it's a D8.
When you make a Claw attack, it's 2d6.
When you flurry, you can use either.
also, it was this post:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q94l?Monk-unarmed-damage-natural-weapons-and-F eral
not the one you linked.
That thread came from the one i linked. And this one is only 67 long you have yet to show the more than 1000 replies you asked folks to find when you gave us homework.