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CQC is a real concept that predates MGS3 (Metal Gear Solid 3 I assume?) by several decades; while many readers won't be familiar with the term, it isn't a super-niche reference to a specific video game.What is CQC?Why yes, I did assume everyone played MGS3. I really should have explained this, that's my fault.
CQC is Close Quarters Combat. I should probably spell that out somewhere in the guide, but it's referencing the style of combat used in Metal Gear Solid 3 in which one uses both a gun and knife to optimize close quarters combat interaction. It's generally performed with a knife/dagger and pistol, but sadly since clip sizes are non existent in this, it's impossible except for punching.
Oh I know, I was stating what it was in context to the guide. It's actually a really interesting subject.
@Gilarius
The Bracers would be dead weight on my gunslinger. It only works for crossbows.
And I compared my suggestions with the charm bracelet he suggested. :)
? The text I read gives a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and a Perception bonus too. For a relatively cheap item, it's decent. The alternatives you suggested are more circumstantially useful and more expensive.
Eg getting a normal cloak of resistance is usually better than the limited one with a higher bonus.
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Regarding CQC gunslingers, have you seen the following build:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2otvv?Gunslinger-Monk-GunKata-build
I found this when looking for a GunKata build for one of my players. It's somewhat slow to really get going, but from level 4-5 onwards you can quite comfortably wade into (quasi-)melee and go to town.
Unrelated, I think the general trick of Unarmed Fighter 1/MoMS 2 to complete a full style chain in three levels, ignoring all prereqs, is pretty hype.
Trust me, I'm well aware of Gunkata, it's basically the coolest and stupidest fictional fighting style around, and I love it. I originally made a Zen Archer who used guns instead of bows just for this purpose.
MoMS is already listed in the multiclass section, although I try to keep the builds exclusively single classed since multiclassing is touchy for some, and I want to show what the base class can do.
New sections added to the guide, including:
-Alchemist and Paladin added to the multiclass section
-Mysterious Stranger rating altered due to learning about the errata
-Shield/Grand Marshal reviewed
-Xbow vs. Gun section
-The Fear build with Minotaur Double Crossbow section in builds
@Gilarius
It only works for bows and crossbow. So, with a firearm, it doesn't give you anything.
Whilst I am getting the feeling that I am wasting my time (and derailing the thread), here is the text of the item:
Each of these crimson leather bracers is emblazoned with the image of a soaring golden falcon scanning the ground for easy prey.
They continually grant the wearer the benefits of the aspect of the falcon spell, though without the spell’s physical transformation.
You take on an aspect of a falcon. Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head. You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks, a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon
Note that each part is separate, not being dependent on the other parts? You get a bonus to perception, and a bonus on ranged attacks, and your critical multiplier for bows and crossbows change.
I won't bother continuing. Apologies, N.Jolly, for the de-rail.
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Also of note for multiclassing, though not PFS, is the Aegis, which grants some simply spectacular combinations and utilities for a wannabe gunner. From Evasion (and its Fort/Will equivalent, Stalwart) to flight, active-camo, burrowing, vision modes, extra arms and of course holding a bigger gun and making it even bigger. Hard to say no to a 'reloading' item/climb/grapple hand, a shield hardpoint and weapons two sizes larger than you'd normally have had!
Will you be covering the Techslinger and its little wonders? Well, not that they're as dangerous as double-pistols but hey they're fun.
I'm assuming Aegis is 3rd party? I don't have anything against 3rd party, but unless I'm doing a guide for it (not likely sadly), I'd rather not include it in my guides.
And I didn't see the techslinger, looks like I'm going to have something new to put into the guide.
What errata for the Mysterious Stranger, N?
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What errata for the Mysterious Stranger, N?
That they only lose Gun Training at 5th level instead of permanently. It's an old ruling, but I didn't like Mysterious Strangers, so I never kept up with them.
Techslinger's in that numerian tech guide. I do wonder if clustered shots might help there, as several of the guns, while quite decent, there, are energy based, which could be a problem much more often than DR.
As for Aegis, yeah, it's one of DSP's psionic classes. One of the best damn martials in flavor, power and balance, but unfortunately not "pathfinder society" legal. Probably the first time I've heard someone say they allow everything but haven't had the psi classes in play! Seriously though. Excellent class. Very solid low tier 3 and a multiclassing wonder.
Oh god...I just read over advanced weapons...I'm not sure I'll be giving a huge review, since these weapons are INTENSE.
I do allow anything, but I've rarely had anyone ask to play anything from DSP, so it's not something familiar with. Like literally everyone ever, I had a bad experience with psionics. Besides, I don't review 3rd party content for people I don't work for.
Do you consider including caster-y types? Spellslinger (both straight and multiclassed with gunslinger/trench fighter for EK) and Myrmidarch (possibly blackblade) Magus have some nice options. Trying to figure out if anyything else does, but right now it's not immediately apparent.
Also, some more multiclass options:
- levels of bard(juggler or Dawnflover dervish) Juggler gives easy reload for TWF, dervish gives straight damage boost/hit, very nice with double barrels.
- levels of rogue/ninja. SA is also very nice with double barrel weapons, and targeting touch AC fixes the usually terrible accuracy you have
Spells are outside the scope of this guide, since they're not a gunslinger class feature. Things like that would better be pulled off by a caster x/Trench Fighter 3 unless you're in Guns Everywhere, and in which case, it'd only be a one level dip to get Gun Training.
As for other multiclass, Juggler gives less than Alchemist, as mutagen is way better than Dervish Dance and bonus arm is better than Juggler, especially since most of the time you're dumping Charisma more than Intelligence, making Alchemist casting the more useful casting feature. That and being able to pass out your buffs (basically renewable potions, including True Strike).
How on earth is Quick Clear only green?
It's a godsend for any gunslinger, unless they've got Reliable on a pistol.
It's green because it's a good 'just in case', but it's not a centerpiece of any build. It's a bandaid for an unfortunate situation. It's also not a good use of grit for the most part, and really every slinger should be saving for a Reliable weapon.
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Just so you know, the advanced weapons are easier on game balance than the ancient ones. Yes, the reason is once again them doubles and the ancient firearms ability to have free action reloading.
But they DO make for some pretty damn cool 'slinger options though, especially if refluffed to magitech or something.
Oh, I'm well aware that advanced weapons are WAY more balanced than old ones, even/especially for misfire rate and such. Ideally, you'd be using advanced firearms in your game, but they're not the default assumption.
@Gilarius
I'm not sure if you were aware of the condescending tone in your last post. Probably you were. You are right, yes, I read the spell wrong. I admit that. As said earlier, it can always be my reading competence (non-native speaker). Next time just give this argument the first time. Without being like that.With that said, the bracers sound awesome. I will get them ASAP.
Hey, you were right, I should throw in at least one other bracer that's not Garbo Charms. I honestly didn't notice it was a +1 to all ranged rolls at first either, I just love Bolt Ace.
And good on you for being multilingual, that's hard as hell and deserves respect.
Also Zen Archer, Juggler Bard, and a new 2HYPE race added to the guide.
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Sorry, when I said advanced I was actually talking about the tech ones. Though that works too.
My head's still spinning from the tech stuff, and while I'll admit some of it is better balanced, there's some things I'm not really a huge fan of. It almost feels like you're waiting for 11th so you can use one less charge a shot, making it less than ideal unless there's some way to make charges via skills (enlighten me if there is, I didn't look too deeply).
Have you considered adding inquisitors to the multiclass section? I know they aren't full BAB, but there are a few interesting synergies.
Personally, I like to just dip two levels of heretic. I lose 1 bab and an average of 2 hp to gain a bonus on my worst save (and fort, which isn't to be sneezed at), a few spells (truestrike, expeditious retreat, and longshot can all be very helpful), 1/day judgement, and add your wisdom mod to bluff, stealth, and initiative. And your domain/inquisition adds a great deal of flexibility, too.
Sanctified Slayers and Sacred Hunstmasters can be great with gunslinger, too.
Looking over both of those archetypes, I'm not seeing a huge reason to pick them if only because there's no great way to keep advancing your animal companion. Most other caster dips (Bard, Alch) have given us a way to TWF, and I don't think you could train a monkey to reload for you...yet.
It's something I'll look over though, since I do have more room in the multiclass section that's burning a hole in my guide.
What about using Dagger Pistols or Sword Cane Pistols with Gun Twirling to do CQC? They count as One Handed Firearms, so they qualify for the free sheathing of Gun Twirling, and they are also Melee Weapons that you can get your stab on with. You could even wield two of them for twice the Stabshooting!
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Yeah, for the tech weapons and techslinger you can do tons of crazy stuff, one of which is increase yourself to huge somehow+dead shot deed+Heavy Weapon Deeds+Rocket Launcher=16d6 damage/touch attack=number of BAB attacks(48d6@11, 64d6@16) you can do this to spent a grit point with charge recycling.
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What about using Dagger Pistols or Sword Cane Pistols with Gun Twirling to do CQC? They count as One Handed Firearms, so they qualify for the free sheathing of Gun Twirling, and they are also Melee Weapons that you can get your stab on with. You could even wield two of them for twice the Stabshooting!
Okay, that's pretty damn creative. There's the problem of this requiring 3 more feats to the already feat intensive TWF style though, which is a hard sell. It does help give Dagger and Sword Cane pistols a legitimate use though.
I think if you do this, you're going to HAVE to dip to get the feats, as even Human can't get this online until like 7th level. I HATE Guntwirling's requirements...
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Juggler bard and Feral Gnasher are good alternatives to gun twirling
Feral Gnasher is race exclusive, and doesn't provide any other benefits since Rage that's not Urban or Tech Scav doesn't help out a slinger. Juggler's a better call for that as well as giving some casting and helping out a bad save, and Alch gives you Mr. 3rd arm to scare children at parties and dual wield like a monster.
Gun Twirling shouldn't have prereqs, we just shouldn't have double barreled guns that screw over the damage curve.
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Hey Jolly;
What is your take on the Blunderbuss?
I super hate the blunderbuss. It has less range than the dragon pistol which does the same thing with one less hand for a little less damage. If you want something like this and it's not PFS, ask your GM to let you use a shotgun.
Amusing fact, the original guns ranges from the campaign setting are:
Blunderbuss: 20 ft Crit: x2
Musket: 90 ft Crit: x3
Pistol: 60 ft Crit: x2
Revolver: 60 ft Crit: x2
Rifle: 150 ft Crit: x3, 19-20
Scattergun/Shotgun: 30 ft Crit: x2
If you can let your GM use these original stats, do it. Rifle and Pistol especially really benefit from this, since pistols aren't freaking melee weapons.
Well goblin is not a bad race for gunslinger tough, rage does not help (although Con could help) but on the other hand you are not losing BAB if you are concerned about that.
I agree on gun twirling, but also I'm on the "we should have quick sheath/holstear feat" team already
Losing one BAB isn't the end of the world for everything that Juggler gives you, which is some form of healing/utility, a +3 to Will saves, and a few weird weapon profs.
I honestly think quick sheathe should be in Quick Draw, there's no reason why not to include it, and it's just...why? Maybe some cheap 20 GP item that lets you quick sheathe, but I don't want to see it being ANOTHER feat to throw on the stack when Quick Draw is already meh.
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Losing one BAB isn't the end of the world for everything that Juggler gives you, which is some form of healing/utility, a +3 to Will saves, and a few weird weapon profs.
No its not, however some important feats require it, such as improved precise shot. Due to how feats appear by level you may be delaying a feat by 2 or three levels, it all comes to personal preference really.
I honestly think quick sheathe should be in Quick Draw, there's no reason why not to include it, and it's just...why? Maybe some cheap 20 GP item that lets you quick sheathe, but I don't want to see it being ANOTHER feat to throw on the stack when Quick Draw is already meh.
I dont see it happening as a mundane item, just remember weapon cords, and quickdraw wont be changed at this point (I would love they do it tought). Anyway there are some third party options thought which add quicksheath + other minor things, dreamscarred is basically core in my games.
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Far Strike Monk in the ranged tactics toolbox is great for a dip. It has most of the same bonus feats that Zen Archer gets (no point blank master though), but gets free quick draw as well.
Is that out yet? Or is it just in snippets? I'd like to see it myself before adding it, as well as just seeing the base premise behind it.
No its not, however some important feats require it, such as improved precise shot. Due to how feats appear by level you may be delaying a feat by 2 or three levels, it all comes to personal preference really.
It's a slight bonus, but I'd rather delay feats for the ability to heal myself, especially since some still have placement figured into Fighter Progression (like ones that require BAB +6 or Improved Critical at BAB +8), so while BAB is helpful, I'd rather have some neat little benefits.
I dont see it happening as a mundane item, just remember weapon cords, and quickdraw wont be changed at this point (I would love they do it tought). Anyway there are some third party options thought which add quicksheath + other minor things, dreamscarred is basically core in my games.
I stand by that Weapon Cords weren't broken, but they saw double barreled weapons were brutal and instead nerfed something else that made them good instead of just removing or altering DB pistols.
More and more people are trying to point me to DSP, if this keeps up I may have to check them out.
Nothing new as of late, dragging my feat on reviewing Tech Slinger, might add Wizard as a RED option to multiclassing since people keep mentioning the spell slinger, and it's not good.
The one sad thing about both those classes is how they give up Still Mind :(
Monastic Legacy would be too good I guess.
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So a few times I've tried to make a character as a crossbow wielding ranged attacker and always got frustrated with the slower capability. Bolt Ace is promising, I just wished they'd stripped the rest of the gun stuff off of it.
That said, I don't think I want to deal with the whole Double crossbow thing. Is going light/heavy crossbow still viable? Strip out the EWP and the build the same? Or does Ranger still do it better?
Am I reading this right, I still get a gun at creation for the Bolt Ace, which I can the sell?
Also, Never Stop Shooting seems to apply to firearms only?
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The one sad thing about both those classes is how they give up Still Mind :(
Monastic Legacy would be too good I guess.
Legacy would be nice, but it's not worth the bonuses either of these classes get normally. I actually really like Martial classes that don't really get anything worth caring about at later levels (Sig Deed aside), since it makes multiclassing lots of fun.
So a few times I've tried to make a character as a crossbow wielding ranged attacker and always got frustrated with the slower capability. Bolt Ace is promising, I just wished they'd stripped the rest of the gun stuff off of it.
That said, I don't think I want to deal with the whole Double crossbow thing. Is going light/heavy crossbow still viable? Strip out the EWP and the build the same? Or does Ranger still do it better?
Am I reading this right, I still get a gun at creation for the Bolt Ace, which I can the sell?
Also, Never Stop Shooting seems to apply to firearms only?
Yeah, Bolt Ace still has some gun left in it, and you still get that starting gun...for some reason. And yeah, Never Stop Shooting is firearm exclusive.
As for B. Ace vs Ranger, B. Ace will ALWAYS make crossbows a better choice than Ranger would, dex to damage is that important, even if Ranger does get other fun stuff. In straight damage, B. Ace rules the roost, although Ranger is probably more versatile.
So I did a bit of double checking just to make sure I wasn't crazy before commenting...but in the guide in The Boss CQC build, Gunslinger is listed as the 5th Level feat but you don't actually meet the requirements for that feat AFAIK because it requires Weapon Focus. Maybe I missed something somewhere?
Yeah, you were right there, fixed it. Everyday of my life, I grow to hate Weapon Focus as a generic 'prereq' feat thrown in for the hell of it. Human gunslingers may be purple just due to how many feats it takes to do anything more complicated than 'basic ranged combat', especially cool stuff like The Boss.
Could you riddle me this: I really wanna build "The Boss", but what is the purpose of TWF here when reloading guns provokes AoO? Wouldn't it be better to just have that Agile Cestus for Close Combat and use the Pistol when out of melee range? Is it really woth the AoO to have one/two additional attacks? Am I not seeing something?
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Quick question. For the Buccaneer. If you were able to get your dm to let you switch the exotic pet to lvl 13 so instead of gun training at 13 you got it at 5 would the archetype be more valuable?
It really, really would. Gun Training is what makes the class by far, a familiar doesn't.
Could you riddle me this: I really wanna build "The Boss", but what is the purpose of TWF here when reloading guns provokes AoO? Wouldn't it be better to just have that Agile Cestus for Close Combat and use the Pistol when out of melee range? Is it really woth the AoO to have one/two additional attacks? Am I not seeing something?
The Boss build isn't for the most 'optimized' which is funny since it's an optimization guide. Technically with Lightning Reload (lvl 11) this isn't an issue, but if we're being honest 99% of enemies aren't going to have combat reflexes, so you're eating 1 AOO to do this. I recognize it's not super great, but it's something that's cool to me, and extra attacks are solid. Most Slingers are going to have pretty great AC, so I don't mind taking 1 attack unless it's against something like a T-Rex or other big 1 hit monsters.
Nice guide, thank you.
Thanks, it's always nice seeing people enjoy my guides.
Glad to see the Juggler dip mentioned. (: What spells would you recommend for cantrip and 1st level selection?
Personally, I'd go for utility stuff, like presty and mage hand for cantrips, and cure light wounds/disguise self for 1st level spells.
All that aside, has anything come out that should be added? I just removed all the SLA references (don't know how I missed these in my first sweep), possibly something to make The Boss style more viable?
So with the changes to Bolt Ace, any different thoughts on the Archtype? I feel like the nerf to Sharp Shot was undeserved.
Could you riddle me this: I really wanna build "The Boss", but what is the purpose of TWF here when reloading guns provokes AoO? Wouldn't it be better to just have that Agile Cestus for Close Combat and use the Pistol when out of melee range? Is it really woth the AoO to have one/two additional attacks? Am I not seeing something?
You can take your Cestus attacks and then 5ft step and fire your pistol. If they don't step in next round, fire your pistol again and then 5ft step in to take the cestus attacks. Once you hit level 11 and things start commonly having reach, you have lightning reload.
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So with the changes to Bolt Ace, any different thoughts on the Archtype? I feel like the nerf to Sharp Shot was undeserved.Wha changes?
I swear I can never find any of those listed changes
The ONLY thing the nerf to Sharp Shoot does is promises there's no reason past 5th level to take this class. I'm not joking, Sig Deed was the only reason to stay past 5th level.
Personally I like all the changes, and with the reasoning above, I like that Sharp Shoot was changed. It makes that 1 level dip in UC Rogue easier to get to, making The Boss style of play viable around level 6, although you could take the UC Rogue dip earlier to be more of a melee fighter first.
These changes basically clinch Bolt Ace as the preeminent Gunslinger, which is kind of hilarious to me. Aside from double pistol abuse, I would always rather use a crossbow.