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So I did a bit of double checking just to make sure I wasn't crazy before commenting...but in the guide in The Boss CQC build, Gunslinger is listed as the 5th Level feat but you don't actually meet the requirements for that feat AFAIK because it requires Weapon Focus. Maybe I missed something somewhere?

Okay good I'm not crazy, or I'm not the only crazy one heh. Hopefully we will get some official feedback on this.

Also another thing of note it sounds like in the blurb here the skill bonuses from studied target are intended to increase with level but in the text it only specifically calls out base attack, damage and DCs is this a mistake or just a very unnecessary and poor change.

I'm really a fan of adding reinforcements to fights definitely an interesting idea and fits well thematically thanks for the advice, I think I will run the first few encounters as written and see how I feel from there, though I will max enemy HP.

Thanks for the input the advanced simple template seems like a good plan. I'll take the PB thing into consideration. I'm trying to avoid having to do too much work manipulating encounter difficulty, but if that's what has to happen so be it.

Hi all, I will be starting the first chapter of RoW next week with a semi new group. We have 5 players 2 of which aren't very well versed in PF but are in tabletop in general. The party consists of: a gnome ranger with the beastmaster/skirmisher archetypes, a human ninja, a human paladin of abadar that is planning to go holy vindicator, an invulnerable rager barbarian, and a suli? (might be human instead) Sorceror. The party seems fairly optimized and I allowed them to use 20 point buy instead of 15 (15 feels too weak to me generally) I would like the combats to feel challenging and I have heard this AP is rock hard but I still dont hold out much hope in the encounters providing much challenge. If anyone has some suggestions of how I should tweak the encounters for this kind of party I would appreciate the input. I'm considering just giving standard encounters +2 HP per HD and giving bosses max HP not sure if that will be enough to cover it though. Thanks in advance.

MoMS benefits the most when they are paired with a couple levels of Unarmed fighter IMO, it allows you to get your style trees online early which really benefits MoMS because it is a very front loaded class from my experience or actually better put it shines the most before level 8. In my experience the Crane/Dragon/Tiger styles work together with great synergy the Crane tree+some acrobatics+deflect arrows means I'm getting a +4 dodge for a -1 to hit I block one melee and ranged attack a turn and dragon can cause shaken making me harder to hit making me tanky enough to be a frontline fighter. On the other side Dragon/Tiger+Elemental fist feat(thanks Dragon Ferocity) make you hit like a truck,especially since you can always PA for basically free (apply . It isn't very flashy but it lets you play a really rough and tumble kind of unarmed fighter that is kind of counter to the standard monk trope.

I don't mean any offense Hrothgar I know you're attempting to help the TC but if any GM actually tried to implement any of these things I would vote with my feet and most people I know (PGs or not) told me the same when I showed them this thread. This thread feels like it's about one guy throwing a tantrum instead of communicating properly with his players and asking the community to rip the game apart to suit his needs so he doesn't have to address the issue.

This whole argument is kind of silly/offensive after reading the first page or two (sorry I just don't want to sift through 12 pages of this so shoot me) I only really have this to say:
1. 3.5 was WAY WAY WAY more imbalanced so cut PF some slack man if you want a perfectly balanced game play core only DnD 4e (cause that was so popular)
2. If someone optimizing their character is such a burden on you as a DM try talking to that player don't just take a baseball bat to the system cause you don't like how one person in your group uses it.
3. If encounters are creating problems for you, you need to work on your encounter preparing skills look at what the group can do and balance your encounters with it (amount of creatures, which creatures, and most importantly the terrain where the fight happens). This will mean including times when the players are at a distinct disadvantage because of their min maxing (which as a PG I enjoy the challenge of).
4. I always take great personal offense when someone uses PG as a dirty word, yes I am a PG, yes I optimize but guess what? I still RP, I still write backgrounds for my characters, and take my RP seriously. Just because I like to take the most effective option for what my character does doesn't make me a bad or disruptive player and the fact that this thread is about controlling power gamers like we aren't people too is blatantly and unnecessarily offensive.

This is pretty much why I have never really been a fan of PFS, If there is a game i want to play in I don't want to trudge through stuff I'm not interested in just so I can have a "legal" character, the game is supposed to be about fun but in my experience with PFS its kind of the opposite.

I have never seen so much butthurt in one topic. This is stupid and quite frankly the whole thing is a wash. I really had hoped the community at large was above this...

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ImperatorK wrote:


You can choose or randomly generate your character's age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character's race and class. Alternatively, roll the dice indicated for your class on Table: Random Starting Ages and add the result to the minimum age of adulthood for your race to determine how old your character is.

I can choose my characters age. So say the rules.

Just stop please it is painfully obvious most of the board disagrees with you. You will not change anyone's mind so just drop it, I (much like many others I'm sure) am tired of reading you post the same justifications over and over. Agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Morris Chan wrote:
we are talking about one vs one besides a rogue can't sneak attack a person who is grappled, they are not flat footed or denied their dexterity they just get a -4 dex and -2 to attack rolls.

A couple quick things:

One. towards the beginning of this thread it was supposed that neither rogue or monk could win alone but together stood a chance so that's where I was coming from there...
Two. The condition I was thinking of was Pinned not Grappled which does indeed work. However all things considered I would still say a grapple monk (perhaps Tetori archetype)could likely win one vs one with a fighter.

ImperatorK wrote:

It's a viable argument. You dismissing it as semantics is sad.

The Vital Statistics section is talking about starting characters. 20th level is hardly starting.




You can choose or randomly generate your character's age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character's race and class. Alternatively, roll the dice indicated for your class on Table: Random Starting Ages and add the result to the minimum age of adulthood for your race to determine how old your character is.

Based on you're quote I will concede its viable but your argument previously about starting at anything but first doesn't make it a starting level character is completely a semantics argument and doesn't hold any weight or relevance, you have to at least admit that.

Ok so have we addressed what actually gives the monk a chance and what guarantees the monk/rogue combo wins vs fighter yet? (sorry didn't read the whole thin so if this was mentioned feel free to call me lazy/stupid/etc etc) By that of course I mean a pure grapple monk, If a monk can initiate a grapple successfully on a fight he will be able to hold him there while the rogue sneak attacks him and the monk takes iteratives. Maybe it's just me but the seems like the first logical step to how the monk wins this. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or show me the math of it...(sorry I would do it myself but its been a long night...)

ImperatorK wrote:
I'll say this: Once we agree that the characters are higher than 1st level, any "rules" governing starting characters are irrelevant, because they're not starting characters anymore.

C'mon now that's just a semantic argument to bend the rules to your favor... Be realistic.

I feel like this is just WAY too vindictive, it sounds like OP is upset about out of game stuff and is really punishing her players too much. Also if I read correctly OP this is your first time as GM? I don't think it would be wise to be overly harsh like that on your players it sets a bad precedent and will likely discourage them from playing in any game you would want to GM after this.

That aside you did say they fail at basic preparedness (skipping mundane items really?) and party composition so I feel it is fit to punish them. I would say choose a couple of those diseases (3 at most) with a more modest save DC and have them roll for just those. You accomplish the goal of giving them a scare and to take the game more seriously and think more about what their characters do without making yourself look bad.

Well now that I finally have stats I have done some work and come up with this:

Vanara MoMS:

Vanara Unarmed Fighter 1/Master of Many Styles 3
Cha:6 nobody likes me :(

F=Fighter Bonus C=Character M=Monk Bonus
C1:Deflect Arrows
F1:Crane Style
M1:Crane Wing
C3:Snake Style
M2:Snake Fang
C5:Weapon Focus (tradeable but with the defensive fighting my to hit is poor at best)
C7:Panther Style
M6: Panther Claw

Raje wrote:
Build 3: You forgot to take Tiger Style at some point. Not sure how I feel about Monkey Style.

Yeah at the last minute when deciding between styles I felt like Dragon would be better than Tiger and forgot to remove tiger pounce since monkey shine's bonus makes up for my loss in to hit,that would likely become elemental fist since dragon ferocity lets me use it like a monk of the four winds. Also I'm not sure I see where you are coming from with only having so many stunning fists if I'm not retarded (this is a possibility)I should have 4 at the start(since we start at 4th level) sure I cant use it every round but since I stun them and use monkey shine the most often I would have to use it is every other round. The real benefit behind monkey style is the +2 vs ranged for no penalty and Monkey shine the +4 to hit says I PA for free so I get the equivalent of tiger pounce without the AC loss.

pobbes wrote:
So, here are my 2cp, lose crane style altogether for the opening build. Take snake style and snake fang. It will still net you one blocked attack a round with your sense motive and get you that counter attack, I might even skip combat reflexes depending on how you build your stats. If you find you are getting clobbered then pick up crane later. Take dragon up to ferocity for that str boost to damage. As your third style, I would take tiger style. Plain and simple, you don't have flurry. At level ten, you have an ok main attack and a crappy second attack. Tiger claw lets you have a worthwhile full attack option which can be very devastating with the dragon style feats. Obviously for this build, strength is key as you will be adding it four times on a successful power attack with tiger claw.

I actually will agree with you on this having the ability to do decent damage is pretty much a must with the loss of flurry otherwise I might as well play a maneuver master since it would be more useful.

I will say I am absolutely married to the idea of being a MoMS just because it is different and the style feats are interesting, I am less concerned about power balance since I am likely the most power gamey of my entire group so if I optimize too much I leave them all behind and that's not fun for any of us.

pobbes wrote:
Wait... I just realized you can be both a hungry ghost and a master of many styles. I think I just nerdgasmed.

Yeah hungry ghost could be really really good to add to MoMS I'll look into it.

After doing plenty of reading and rereading and building a few different characters I've come up with a few feat builds. They are all up to level 10 since I don't expect us to get much higher than that but I am unsure which one is going to be the most effective... so I thought I would post them here and see what people think of them...

Build 1:

H=Human C=Character M=Monk Bonus

C1:Crane Style
M1:Snake Style
M2:Snake Fang
C3:Combat Reflexes
C5:Crane Wing
M6:Panther Style
C7:Panther Claw
C9:Deflect Arrows
M10:Panther Parry

This is I believe the most defensive of the builds and takes the most advantage of extra attacks from Snake and Panther styles.

Build 2:

H=Human C=Character M=Monk Bonus

C1:Crane Style
M1:Snake Style
M2:Snake Fang
C3:Power Attack
c5:Crane Wing
M6:Dragon Style
C7:Dragon Ferocity
C9:Deflect Arrows
M10: Elemental Fist

This is the more middle ground defensive build though with dragon style I should be pouring out a lot more damage I see my to hit possibly being a problem especially if using PA.

Build 3:

H=Human C=Character M=Monk Bonus

H:Combat Reflexes
C1:Panther Style
M1:Monkey Style
M2:Monkey Shine
C3:Dragon Style
C5:Dragon Ferocity
M6:Panther Claw
C7:Power Attack
C9:Panther Parry
M10:Tiger Pounce

This is more of an all out offensive style I can use my stunning fist with panther claw attacks to monkey shine into their square then hit them hard with PA at basically no penalty.

Edit: Also after thinking about it I am not married to the idea of using Drunken master and doubt it would work effectively with anything but build 1.

Raje wrote:
Here's one.

That actually looks rather interesting! Thanks.

On another note after looking over a lot of style feats I was wondering how well combining dragon and tiger style would be to make a really hard hitting vital striker using Tiger claws/Dragon ferocity/PA? any ideas?

So I will soon be starting an Underdark campaign and since we are all prisoners sentenced to life in the underdark I figured anything equipment heavy would be just asking to get my ass kicked. So I decided on playing a monk, besides I haven't played a monk in PF yet and Master of Many Styles looks really fun. So I was hoping people could give me some insight into what styles are worth taking (so far crane panther snake and dragon all look interesting)and what feats are best to accompany them, keep in mind we will be in the underdark all campaign and we are starting at lvl 4 with rolled stats (haven't rolled them up yet)though considering this GM's trends (he likes to keep us in a particular over bonus bracket) we will likely have stats similar to 25 point buy. Thanks a lot for the help in advance.

After reading this and the thread that spawned it I have to say I don't see how you and your players could ever game in the same group. These players either need to not play at all cause frankly just reading this makes me want to slap them, on the other hand I can't see how you would allow someone to walk on you like that I personally would be telling people to either abide by my decisions or don't play in my games. Truth is players are easily replaced, a GM who isn't lazy or a tyrant and is capable of creating an entertaining story is hard to find.

I predict this game makes it about an hour in before all hell breaks loose and someone flips the table.

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Hooray for lost posts!! sorry this looks so sloppy...

So without min maxing, without using anything that isn't APG/Core with a 20 point buy and average wealth per level let me present to you a switch hitter inquisitor still standing at a solid amount of skill point and solid OOC abilities:

Half-Elf Inquisitor 11
Str 20 (14+2 racial+4 enhancement)
Dex 20 (15+1 at 4th +4 enhancement)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 20 (15 +1 8th +4 enhancement)
Cha 9

HP = (assuming average) 64
Saves: Fort = 7+1+2 = 10 Ref = 3+5+2 = 10 Will = 7+3+2 = 12
Attacks: BAB = 8/3
Ranged (with divine power/judgement/Bane) 18(x2)/18/13/8 1d8+13+2d6 (more with deadly aim)
Melee (same as above) 20/20/15 1d10+15+2d6 (much much more with power attack)
AC = 10+5+7 =22
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Power attack, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot
Equipment: cloak of resistance +2, Mithril breastplate +1, Elven curveblade (or other good 2 hander)+2, Composite longbow (str 20) +2, +4 belt of physical perfection (Str+Dex), Headband of Wisdom +4.

Using the half-elf alternate racial feature gives the proficiency, taking the skill point for each favored class level you still have 8 skill points per level, and 3 teamwork feats and 4 levels of spells with a decent save DC. Plus with your bonuses to track, monster lore for your knowledges, and stern gaze for your intimidate/sense motive you will have plenty to do outside of combat. plus at 11th level your also getting stalwart which is a pretty solid ability and you have discern lies (rounds per day) and the detect spells at will.

Why has no one mentioned inquisitor? They get some great self buffs + judgement so you are always hitting for decent damage. I am playing an inquisitor right now with a 14 str 16 dex switch hitter and with a turn or two to buff I'm hitting at a +8 for 1d8+8 with a composite longbow. I can switch to melee if needed and still do good damage with a 2-hander and my 6+int skills and other class abilities ensure that I am relevant beyond being a walking hail of arrows.

Wow, this is just a complete fustercluck as was already said do they think they are playing GTA the PnP?

It sounds like your GM doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on the rules if he constantly gets rules questions by multiple players there is an obvious problem there. However, from what I'm seeing it sounds like this other player runs his game by the book has a similar expectation here and can't seem to relax and just let things play out. It is critical that your GM and this player have a serious discussion about how by the book this game is and what house rules are being used. Another thing that will relax this situation considerably is make sure everyone is held to the same rules GM included, players are just a responsible for keeping the GM honest as he/she is to keep the players honest. It does sound like this player has some serious control issues regardless of circumstance.

As for the hoarding of loot and not healing of characters sometimes a character you roleplay isn't gonna win friends by nature of his personality (play a kender rogue and you'll know what I mean, I had a blast and still managed to make it entertaining for others even though they hated my character). However, from what I've seen (only know 2 alignments CN and LE) it sound to me like this game leans toward being an evil campaign, with that said honestly, just what did you expect? If your all evil you wont be getting help from him he wont give away his loot if he doesn't have to and honestly I'm surprised he doesn't charge for healing. If it isn't an evil game and you are one of or the only evil character I could justify him not healing your little scaly evil #$%. I personally don't like the idea of a player gimping his teammates regardless of circumstance but it is something that is pretty common in an evil game.

Bottom line: it sounds like your GM needs to clarify his rules and be kept in check for honest play, sounds like your player needs to leave his life issues at the door and learn to have some fun.

also after looking at it I can manage to alter my stat array as many people suggested to look something more like this:

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 10

Does this seem like it would be preferable compared to the other way. I can definitely see the justification for dropping the Wis considering most inquisitor spells seems to be self buffing even though it does change how effective the spells i might choose for RP purposes are (Interrogate for example and a few others)but I don't think it would hurt me too much, beneficially I could have a +2 compound longbow and my sword would sure hit harder and I could likely forego having to take weapon finesse giving me a feat for something else...

Thanks for all the great suggestions guys I'm planning to take the Heresy Inquisition to make up for the low charisma and to give my character more to do out of combat, I have a deity chosen but I need to hammer out what I will get since it is a homebrew pantheon of gods. As for the 2 handed thing I will definitely be taking the suggestion of the Elven curveblade a 2 hander i can finesse that maintains the flavor of the character seems fitting (she is very attached to her elven heritage)and even without the extra strength right now i can stack something like +6 or +8 damage to my atttacks so i don't feel like i'll be left wanting. I scoured the books a bit after I read this and I wondered what are people's thoughts on the Manacles of cooperation? I don't see them as particularly good RAW but if they would be growing with me I could see some serious benefits coming from them.

Hey there folks So I'm playing an inquisitor, starting level 4, for a newly started campaign, I'm a half-elf with these stats:
Str 10
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 14
WIs 18
Cha 10

That's after racial modifier, I'm planning to focus on archery but have decided to take the half-elf alternate racial feature ancestral arms to give me proficiency in a melee weapon (likely a two hander since my low strength seem negligible with all the damage/to hit bonuses inquisitor can stack). My question is this:

My gm has told us that at character creation we can have 1 magic item that will be linked to our character and grow in power with us it has to be a magic item from one of the core books, it can't cost more than 2,250g and cannot be a magical weapon or armor. My concern is I have absolutely no idea what item I would choose for this considering the limitations basically mean it has to be a wondrous item or maybe a ring so any advice would be great, thanks in advance guys.

also I'm fairly certain that eventually the item will leave the realm of core and move very quickly into homebrew, however for the first few levels I would like it to be relevant to my character and the type of item it is will likely never change.

So after thoroughly reading through the class, I can say I love the idea of the alchemist and I'll be playing one starting this week. However, the more I read the class the more I see some glaring problems which I have to say is discouraging.

1. The discoveries well....they would be amazing if you got enough of them as it is now there are 24 discoveries (not including grand discoveries) and I get to pick 6? Only 4 before 20th level and to be honest you're really limited by the pre-reqs. I would say making it bombs every odd level and discoveries every third level starting at 1st would make them a lot better.

2. Bombs are well once again they would be good except its a full round, move to mix standard to throw... to begin with it's worse than swinging a short sword, and as things progress it really just doesn't catch up in power level even with its great damage progression. If you could prepare them as a swift action then sure they would be useful or if you could prepare them at the beginning of the day and then have them ready for use all day that would help too.

3. Extracts seem to me like they could be better, and I mean that I don't like taking a round or two so I can be useful, that seems unnecessarily limiting to the alchemist. Why not instead make it quicker to quaff a potion then I buff the first round then get to participate in the battle starting in round 2 much like other spellcasters who buff the first round then start to do things.

4. Mutagens I really can't complain about these they have good flavor and let you become a combat monster for a fight which is interesting, I really like the flavor of a self serving caster hybrid.

Ultimately, I think you could fix this class just by making swift alchemy apply to the creation of bombs (so they become a swift action), make discoveries a 1,4,7....progression adding more poisons and alchemical items and make alchemist be able to quaff a potion as a move action or a swift (wishful thinking). I'll try the class as it is for now and then try it with these fixes and I'll be sure to let everyone know pros and cons.

Maybe I'm a little out of the loop so if this was brought somewhere else my apologies, also let me say ahead of time that i really like about 95% of what you guys have done with pathfinder but I do have a question. I know the spiked chain was cheese but I was curious with the other options available to fix the spiked chain cheese (like perhaps standing up not provoking Attacks of Opp) what made you guys decide to drop reach from the chain over other fixes? I only ask because it actually leaves open a niche that the spiked chain filled that wasn't cheese.