Anti-magic army design


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Hello folks,

So, for a campaign I'm playing I'm trying to create a "special forces" unit specialized in countering magical threats. This can include:

-Casters (both divine & arcane)
-Constructs
-Magical Artillery

Now, there are a few limits I'm posing on myself:

-The members of the army cannot be casters
-They can use magical items/swords

I've started collecting a few classes that can work with these themes:

-Purity Legion Enforcer (to fight divine casters)
-Superstitious spell sunder barbarian
-"Disruptive" fighter
-Martial artist monk (can ignore DR/Hardness of constructs)
-Untouchable bloodrager (arcane bloodline)

I'm looking for specialized archetypes that could work for such an antimagic army. I'm curious of what you folks think.

Sovereign Court

Skirmisher Ranger archetype comes to mind, basically spell less ranger, with favored enemies, they can be quite efficient in specialized groups, bounty hunters etc...

Lore Warden Fighter, going to need some people to roll these knowledge checks.

Alchemist, are technically not magic, on the fluff side of things, since they are using alchemy but well if you are adamant about not any kind of magic...well nvm then.

Brawler and the various archetypes could be quite efficient, A group of mutagenic maulers brutes for example could be a strong force against magical opponents.

If you want to consider the technology guide, you could include cyber soldiers and the likes.


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An entire troop of Steel Soul/Glory of Old Dwarven Tetori Monks with a lot of their money put towards being undetectable.


Eltacolibre wrote:

Skirmisher Ranger archetype comes to mind, basically spell less ranger, with favored enemies, they can be quite efficient in specialized groups, bounty hunters etc...

Lore Warden Fighter, going to need some people to roll these knowledge checks.

Alchemist, are technically not magic, on the fluff side of things, since they are using alchemy but well if you are adamant about not any kind of magic...well nvm then.

Brawler and the various archetypes could be quite efficient, A group of mutagenic maulers brutes for example could be a strong force against magical opponents.

If you want to consider the technology guide, you could include cyber soldiers and the likes.

Some good ideas there. Tech is acceptable (it's part of the setting I created). While the ideas arent bad, there isnt anything that specifically anti-magic (they are generally good ideas).


I think the problem with the bloodrager is they're supposed to be reasonably rare...certainly not common enough to fill out a country's regiment, I think.

They'd make sweet officers, IMO. Specifically, arcane bloodline primalist untouchable bloodragers. They're built for mage slaying.

Unfortunately, they would all almost by necessity be magically equipped. There really is no way to fight fire without fire when it comes to magic, especially when you get mid level and above.

By the way, it would be very nice to mix those martial artists WITH the barbarians, if you actually are making characters of high enough level to both grab spell sunder AND fit in five levels of monk. You can then rage-cycle and get a crapton of spell sunders in a single fight.


Bloodragers are as rare as you make them.

It sounds like everything you face can be defeated through sound though - shatter for the constructs and artillery, plus cacophony to prevent the casters from concentrating (deafening even?).

It would need high Will saves too, and good armor and weapon abilities to withstand a 1 on 1 fight with constructs.

Say it with me: Belzken Mother-f~#%ing War Drummer.

PS: Add some Spell Warrior Skalds for fuz-roh-dah counterspells.

Sovereign Court

Well in the case of brawlers, they have their knockout punch, which should disable spellcasters if they get close enough.

Without spellcasters, it's a little difficult to make an antimagic unit, unless they get access to exotic animals/monsters to help them in their jobs. A disenchanter for example is an excellent creature to send somewhere to hunt for magic.


Um...skalds are casters.

He requested non-casters. The untouchable bloodrager gives up spellcasting, the others mentioned are non-casters.

Also, I always envisioned bloodragers like sorcerers...and to me, naturally occurring magic and other power manifestation is not something that happens commonly.


thegreenteagamer wrote:

Um...skalds are casters.

He requested non-casters. The untouchable bloodrager gives up spellcasting, the others mentioned are non-casters.

Also, I always envisioned bloodragers like sorcerers...and to me, naturally occurring magic and other power manifestation is not something that happens commonly.

In my case it's pretty arbitrary; in my own setting, all casters are Nobility (so they are fairly rare). You could never make a whole army of them. However, since the untouchable doesnt actually cast, I dont mind too much myself. Again, unlikely to make a whole army but...

And yeah, I know the lack of any casters is a significant weakness, which is why I am looking for specific anti-magic archetypes/abilities (I know I am missing some).

I think I may also create a custom PrC (based on the purity legion enforcer) called the "anti-mage".

Note: The "army" wou;dnt be too huge; maybe 2-3 100 soldier units. They would be more "special unit" than army.


Mmh... I never really considered Skalds and Bards to be casters, but so be it.

I'd make a custom Thrumming Monk archetype, which can send shockwaves through constructs and siege weapons as the shatter spell, plus chant a humming anthem that deafens casters and provokes concentration checks.

Plus, give it scrying immunity.


williamoak wrote:
I think I may also create a custom PrC (based on the purity legion enforcer) called the "anti-mage".

"The fun ends here!"


Secret Wizard wrote:
Mmh... I never really considered Skalds and Bards to be casters, but so be it.

What threw you off, the spells class feature?


Secret Wizard wrote:
Mmh... I never really considered Skalds and Bards to be casters, but so be it.

*blank stare of amazement* Really?

What about hunters, inquisitors, magi, warpriests, and summoners? Same amount of spells, them...

To the OP: take a look at the 3.5 PRCs: occult slayer, forsaker, and...crap...I don't remember the other one, but it's a monk-ish one, and I read about it in a book...starts with a J, I think...dangit...can't remember it...

But those first two are pretty sweet...since you're creating custom stuff, anyway, might as well dabble in the ol 3.5. (I usually don't do the 3.5 thing anymore, but I don't do custom stuff too much either, so, in for a penny, in for a pound, eh?)


My immediate question: when you say you're looking to create a "unit", just what does that entail, size-wise?

It's much easier to use some of these "rare" troops for, say, a company-sized force than a full army. Conversely, a smaller unit would almost certainly be less diverse, which makes your planning easier.


Oh, it's just that to me, when I think casters, I think prepared casters -- learned mages. Skalds, Bloodragers, Bards, Sorcerers, those are more like magical beings, rather than magical users in my mind.

Quote:
I don't remember the other one, but it's a monk-ish one, and I read about it in a book...starts with a J, I think...dangit...can't remember it...

Brother of the Seal is good for fighting casters a bit, staying with PF material.


Witch Hunter Inquisitor fits "anti-magic" conceptually with some defenses and detection of arcane casters, to at least aid a party of anti-magic commandos - yeah I know he's a caster.

Cavalier, Order of the First Law is anti-divine (even protects athiests!)

I've been dabbling with ideas for a commando unit type game, even looking at using gun tech. Archetypes like Battlescout Ranger and Sniper Slayer fit well as non-caster commando type motif, though doesn't necessarily have anti-magic capability. Of course my commandos aren't for an anti-magic theme, so I've got magus, inquisitor and an "oradin" as applicable other members of the commando squad.

I'm also looking at developing a homebrew sci-fi setting where magic is tech (EN Publishing Santiago setting style) where Untouchable Rager fit as genetically engineered super soldiers who can defy arcane-tech defenses on raids, and really fit that concept well.


It seems a bit odd that you have no casters in your anti-casting unit. That's like having a bomb-detection squad with no explosives specialist.

1) Your unit needs a way to defeat divination spells. At the moment, any caster capable of scrying and/or asking divination questions can avoid you very easily.

2) Your unit needs a way to consistently fly, presumably using magic items but preferrably via something that can't be dispelled.

3) Your unit needs a way of getting arcane sight to spot mind blank invisible mages. I don't think you can actually do this so you may instead need someone with tremorsense or blindsight.

4) Your unit needs some way to chase burrowing polymorphed opponents. Not sure if this is even possible: if not, druids are beyond your reach unless you can kill them in the surprise round.

Ultimately it is very difficult to impossible to construct a non-spellcasting team capable of defeating spellcasters beyond ~level 5 unless you deliberately optimise the team and deliberately sub optimise the casters. The problem is, if you are standing next to a full caster with no good defenses up (so your amazing anti-caster abilities kick in), you may as well just kill them with a full attack anyway. .


Don't shackle yourself to just classes, consider using unusual races, even monster races. Elementals aren't bright, but they're smart enough to take orders. An earth elemental with a couple class levels can hunt down your burrowing druid foes, etc. You're the GM, you don't need to stick to PC races.


Another concept is that you might consider sorcerers as legal spellcasters since they are born to it rather than corrupting their minds by learning it. Those born to it, form the noble class of society since noble blood is the key for that social caste. As the nobility than are abhorrent to spellcasters who are of noble blood. This way you could allow at least a young noble sorcerer to join your party of anti-magic commandos to support the state doctrine that only legal sorcerers are allowed to cast magic.


So first let's look at what you need to fight (and a rage power to fight it if I can find it).


So that list also suggests Blind-Fight, ranged attackers, some way to crank saves (Steel Soul Glory of Old Dwarf), some way to negate movement (Tetori, also does polymorph), and some way to hide from divination. Also Blindsense item, only way I know to fight daze, and double save on dominate. I recommend every squad have one ranged person with maxed spellcraft for every melee guy whose sole job it is is to ready an action to shoot someone in the face if they try to cast.

Actually, I just found the best anti-divination item ever but you need to be using the mythic book. It doesn't require mythic and it's expensive as hell, but say hello to (can't link directly, it's on this page) The Gun with No Name.


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I find the most quick and effective way to spike a character's saving throws is through multiclassing. I multiclass a lot, and my characters' saves get wicked high wicked fast.

My first thought for an army of low-level mage hunters is ranged weapons and ranged threats, so they can get ranged attacks of opportunity against spellcasters.

A lot of them could be armed with something like shield and spear, some of them could be bowmen, and lots of them adopt the tactic of holding their action until they see a spellcaster casting, then they let their arrows fly and disrupt the spells at just the right time.

This is a very solid tactic, and probably good vs. a lot of casters, but not specifically an anti caster tactic. Make sure everyone in the troop has Scent, and teach them Blind Fighting, then 1 member of the formation carries an eversmoking bottle. Orogs (a kind of orc) all have Scent. So do Bugbears. Many attack spells: rays, magic missile and other things, require sight. It would be an expensive item, but a special forces unit might include 1 magic item like that.

Somebody mentioned Grapplers. A good grappler is devastating against a spellcaster. My favorite grappling combo is Greater Grapple and Expert Captor. Expert Captor is an ability granted to level 2 Cavaliers who join the Order of the Penitent. It lets you Tie Up your Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent as part of the Maintain the Grapple Check. If you begin your round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action and Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action. Good luck casting a spell bound hand and foot.

Greater Grapple requires a grappler of like level 6 at least, so it might be unreasonable to field an army of them. But an army might have 1 or 2 of them. But a company of Cavaliers from the Order of the Penitent might well have several level 2 grapplers amongst them combined with some archers with Blunt or Tanglefoot arrows who adopt the tactic of holding their fire the first round to finesse the spellcasters to give themselves away. The level 2 grapplers could Initiate the Grapple the first round then Tie Up their opponents the 2nd. Spellcasting while Grappled requires a concentration check overcoming the Grapplers Grapple CMD.


Hmm... maybe I should put a little more on the subject. There are some good ideas here, though I will admit the challenge seems big.

1-This will be a small-ish military unit (about 300 soldiers at most)

2-"Casters" in my setting are all nobles, who are opposed to the leaders of the unit (called the Lord-Protector). (There are a few "traitor" casters who serve the lord protector, but not enough to use in active military situations)

2.1- 95% of casters would be below level 10, 80% below level 5

3-I dont treat alchemists & investigators as casters, so they could be usable.

3.2 Psychonaut alchemist could be great for anti-divination

4-All members of this squad would be "elite", so level 5+ (their leader would be level 15)

So, some notes on what others have said:

thegreanteagamer: Ah, I would love to adapt 3.5 PrCs, but with dndtools down, I have no way of accessing these (which I imagine are spread across several books). I'll have to create my own.

secret-wizard: Brother of the seal could be interesting, I shall reflect on it.

Blakmane: I'm well aware of the difficulties (and story-wise, it's why the casters have dominated for so long). I'm just looking for alternatives to just "more casters".

Zaboom: Unfortunately, I kinda shackled myself with a setting with very few unusual races.

Gamer-printer; letting a sorcerer enter wouldnt work; it's not a "corruption" issue, more of a "casters are an upper class of douchebags we dont trust" issue.

Bob bob bob: I LOVE YOU! Great stuff you came up with. You have confirmed that barbarians will be an integral part of the unit.

Numerous mentions of grappling: that is something I hadnt thought of, but a grappling tetori could be great to shut down casters.

Conclusions:

1) There will be a lot of barbarians in the group (for spell sunder, superstition, eater of magic, etc...)

2) Alchemist infusions will be important (to transfer effects like see invis, arcane sight,etc.). Alchemists will be essential support.

3) Monks will be useful, in that they have high mobility (so can reach the casters quick) & have a bunch of useful archetypes (tetori & the archer one come to mind)

4) There are a bunch of conditions we will need unusual creature support for; dogs for scent, maybe giant leeches for blindsight & more?

Anyway, thanks for everyone's help. I have a lot to think about.


I don't understand why you feel the need to stay in the rules framework. Unless the party is going to be part of this group, there's no reason for them to understand how any of there stuff works. So long as it behaves consistently, they probably won't ask questions.

I suppose if you're absolutely determined not to just make it up, there was a class feature in 3.5 called Mettle. It was Evasion for Fortitude and Will. Part of the package for being trained by this group could be gaining Mettle.


Remember, also, that dwarves are the only common race with access to Spell Resistance from 1st level.


Neurophage wrote:

I don't understand why you feel the need to stay in the rules framework. Unless the party is going to be part of this group, there's no reason for them to understand how any of there stuff works. So long as it behaves consistently, they probably won't ask questions.

I suppose if you're absolutely determined not to just make it up, there was a class feature in 3.5 called Mettle. It was Evasion for Fortitude and Will. Part of the package for being trained by this group could be gaining Mettle.

I feel the need to stay within a rules framework (as much as possible) because the possibility exists that the PCs might be able to join. With monsters, you can do anything, but with humanoids, I'd rather not putting anything the PCs couldnt have.

True, dwarven spell resistance could be useful.


I Think the important thing to get clear is if it is units made to figth things far above their own level? Or if it is High level heroes that plan to figth high level Challenges? In my World most PC classes are rare and vanilla figthers are just as rare as exploitet wizards, Master summoners, Dual cursed oracles and ninjas. So army units are made up of warriors, experts, aristocrats and adepts mostly.
And battels are often heroes figthing it out. The army is used to deal with the normal population and occupation.
I suggest a stealth based sabouteur unit as the Best anti magic thing if they are to deal with stuff above there own paygrade.


If you want cheap blindsense, bats are only 5 gp and have blindsense 20 feet. Dire Riding Bats are Large, 300 gp (450 gp for combat trained), and come with blindsense 40 ft. and fly 40 ft. (good). So anti-invisible cavalry, but only 4 HD and 13 Con so the first fireball would destroy them. From this list of purchaseable animals. Dire Bat is also an option for animal companions except you need to hit level 7 before it can grow to large. So any small race or a medium race that's level 7+. You can also get an animal companion through Animal Ally and boost it with Boon Companion.

You know, come to think of it, animal companions are probably a good thing to try to work in. Pouncing grappling tigers, naturally flying creatures, natural climb speeds, and free evasion at level 3.


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Monks with amulets of anti magic shell.

Silver Crusade

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Check out the book series Chronicle of the Black Company by Glen Cook. It's about the members of a tough-as-nails mercenary company (mostly Lawful Evil at start) in a strong-magic high fantasy world. It's a high fantasy caster-dominant world in which no warrior, no matter how strong, is a match for a competent mage. The Company has a few sorcerers of its own, but strictly 2nd stringers. The Narrator is the Company Doctor, Croaker, who also writes the Company Chronicles. Healing magic exists, but is relatively rare.

The Company can't stand up to high-powered magic, and they know it. That's why they initially work for a lich. The Company eventually falls in with a Null, an anti-sorcerer who constantly projects a huge (eventually grows to 1 mile radius) anti-magic shell. The power of the Null gives Martials a chance against Casters. The Company exploits this to the maximum, and attempts to overthrow the ruling consortium of mighty mages, archmages, and liches. Of greatest import is that magical scrying doesn't work inside the Null.

The books do a great job of showing how magical foes adapt to facing anti-magic foes (the Null) with an unstoppable meat shield (the Company). E.g. Load up your flying carpet up with Alchemist Fire, fly above the Null, then bombs away. E.g. They add 'glide wings' to their magic carpets to so they can glide inside the anti-magic shell. Stuff like that.

This book is full of inspiration for this thread title. The entire book series is basically about a very elite special forces team that hunts magical foes, sometimes with the help of an anti-magic shell. All very epic, of course.


What about the Alchemist archtype "Scientific Innovator?" it's an antimagic alchemist. Search for the PDF on this site, too lazy to look it up right now...


Magda Luckbender wrote:

Check out the book series Chronicle of the Black Company by Glen Cook. It's about the members of a tough-as-nails mercenary company (mostly Lawful Evil at start) in a strong-magic high fantasy world. It's a high fantasy caster-dominant world in which no warrior, no matter how strong, is a match for a competent mage. The Company has a few sorcerers of its own, but strictly 2nd stringers. The Narrator is the Company Doctor, Croaker, who also writes the Company Chronicles. Healing magic exists, but is relatively rare.

The Company can't stand up to high-powered magic, and they know it. That's why they initially work for a lich. The Company eventually falls in with a Null, an anti-sorcerer who constantly projects a huge (eventually grows to 1 mile radius) anti-magic shell. The power of the Null gives Martials a chance against Casters. The Company exploits this to the maximum, and attempts to overthrow the ruling consortium of mighty mages, archmages, and liches. Of greatest import is that magical scrying doesn't work inside the Null.

The books do a great job of showing how magical foes adapt to facing anti-magic foes (the Null) with an unstoppable meat shield (the Company). E.g. Load up your flying carpet up with Alchemist Fire, fly above the Null, then bombs away. E.g. They add 'glide wings' to their magic carpets to so they can glide inside the anti-magic shell. Stuff like that.

This book is full of inspiration for this thread title. The entire book series is basically about a very elite special forces team that hunts magical foes, sometimes with the help of an anti-magic shell. All very epic, of course.

Thank you Magda! I had heard about the series before, but never thought about it seriously. I will need to check it out.


With the idea that your army will have some high level characters, I'd float the idea of multiclassing again. I have a character build that by level 6 will be a

level3 Monk
Level 2 ranger
level 1 fighter

So, the Monk levels will give him +3Fort/+3Reflex/+3Will
the Ranger levels will give +3Fort/+3Reflex
and the Fighter level will give +2 fort

So the base total will be +8 Fort/+6 Reflex/+3 Will. By way of Comparison, a level 6 Barbarian would have a +5 base Fort. A level 6 Rogue would have a +5 base Reflex. Will is getting slightly short shrift, but it is higher than any other class with a poor Will Save. In addition, this character will have Evasion. So this will be a pretty magic resistant character just because of Saves.

Somebody mentioned the Dwarven Spell Resistance racial trait. Dwarves are a solid choice as part of a nonmagical, anti-wizard, combat unit but I think Dwarven saving throws are even better than the spell resistance.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

With the idea that your army will have some high level characters, I'd float the idea of multiclassing again. I have a character build that by level 6 will be a

level3 Monk
Level 2 ranger
level 1 fighter

So, the Monk levels will give him +3Fort/+3Reflex/+3Will
the Ranger levels will give +3Fort/+3Reflex
and the Fighter level will give +2 fort

So the base total will be +8 Fort/+6 Reflex/+3 Will. By way of Comparison, a level 6 Barbarian would have a +5 base Fort. A level 6 Rogue would have a +5 base Reflex. Will is getting slightly short shrift, but it is higher than any other class with a poor Will Save. In addition, this character will have Evasion. So this will be a pretty magic resistant character just because of Saves.

Somebody mentioned the Dwarven Spell Resistance racial trait. Dwarves are a solid choice as part of a nonmagical, anti-wizard, combat unit but I think Dwarven saving throws are even better than the spell resistance.

Why didn't you just go straight Dwarf Monk if you were after saves...


Surprised how few archers are brought up. Several archers holding to disrupt spellcasting and with decent stealth checks can be quite the pickle for a caster.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
boring7 wrote:
Surprised how few archers are brought up. Several archers holding to disrupt spellcasting and with decent stealth checks can be quite the pickle for a caster.

Archers also eliminate the need for the army to fly, at least for the most part. A well trained archer has a LOT of range.


So, a proper mage hunting party so far should be:

  • A few Archers. Probably Trapper Rangers for stealth, traps and a suitable favored terrain (different for each company)
  • Some Tetori Steel Soul Glory of Old Dwarves if the mage is dumb enough to get close, or sends some dominated/summoned brutes out to fight.
  • Flight-mounted Cavaliers and other tactician-esque classes for teamwork feats and group synergy.
  • A fair number of non-humanoid members to avoid nasty spells that even the Dwarves might succumb to. Wyrwoods (Constructs) were originally enslaved by mages and have taken great pains to hide the secret of their creation so as to never serve mages again. They'd be all over this. Ghorans (Plants) were originally raised as food by magic users of some kind, so I don't think they'd be entirely opposed to some revenge.

Anything past that is gonna be magical.


Any animal has scent, and it's a great way to beat invisibility. You therefore want some well trained animals (maybe animal companions; several non-casters can get them) and maybe a gnome or two to use their speak with animals SLA.


Another point is when you say "army" you imply massed combat rules, large numbers, and generally lower levels/NPC classes.


LazarX wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Surprised how few archers are brought up. Several archers holding to disrupt spellcasting and with decent stealth checks can be quite the pickle for a caster.
Archers also eliminate the need for the army to fly, at least for the most part. A well trained archer has a LOT of range.

I mentioned archers in a post on this thread about a week ago.

Grand Lodge

Custom Magic Item, the Anti Magic Stone.

These stones create a small sphere of antimagic. Typically worn as amulets, they can also be fashioned into rings, brooches etc. Basically anything you can place a gem in can hold an Antimagic Stone.

Price: 198000gp

Pricy, but since they are not spending money on magic items, at all, they have some cash to burn. The field is not exactly personal either, so the team could pool their WBL to make it "cheaper"


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

With the idea that your army will have some high level characters, I'd float the idea of multiclassing again. I have a character build that by level 6 will be a

level3 Monk
Level 2 ranger
level 1 fighter

So, the Monk levels will give him +3Fort/+3Reflex/+3Will
the Ranger levels will give +3Fort/+3Reflex
and the Fighter level will give +2 fort

So the base total will be +8 Fort/+6 Reflex/+3 Will. By way of Comparison, a level 6 Barbarian would have a +5 base Fort. A level 6 Rogue would have a +5 base Reflex. Will is getting slightly short shrift, but it is higher than any other class with a poor Will Save. In addition, this character will have Evasion. So this will be a pretty magic resistant character just because of Saves.

Somebody mentioned the Dwarven Spell Resistance racial trait. Dwarves are a solid choice as part of a nonmagical, anti-wizard, combat unit but I think Dwarven saving throws are even better than the spell resistance.

Why didn't you just go straight Dwarf Monk if you were after saves...

The base saves for a level 6 Monk would be +5/+5/+5 as opposed to my +8/+6/+3. Which is better is a matter of opinion. Your opinion is solid.

The build I am referring to was not actually made specifically to spike the saving throws. I had other reasons for doing the multiclassing. This character will be a Tengu with Claws, Feral Combat Training, and Improved Natural Weapon. The levels in Monk will be for increasing the Claw Damage, Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes which FCT will allow the Claws for. Between FCT, Monastic Legacy, and Improved Natural Weapon (via the 2 levels in Ranger: the only way to get that in PFS), the character will have 6 attacks/round that all do a base of 2d6.


You might want to put some thought into how this unit is going to handle casters that get annoyed at them and decide to take the offensive.

The thing is that the real power of a caster is not that they can beat you at your own game. It is that they can make you play theirs, which for martial types is pretty much a guaranteed losing situation.

Here are a few avenues of attack a mid-highish level caster (or, more likely, a small group of casters) could use if they really wanted to take the kids gloves off. These are all designed to grind the unit down and weaken them instead of obliterating them outright.

Lots of text:

- Ambush members of the unit that are separated. Unless the entire unit stays together forever, some of them will be vulnerable eventually e.g. a couple of people head to a nearby inn for some r&r. An excellent time to be jumped by some undead/planar bound minions/hirelings/dominated guards etc.

- Infiltrate the unit's camp and do horrible things. Between shapeshifting, illusionary disguises, mundane disguises, invisibility, etherealness, teleportation, burrowing, enchantment magic and flying there should be *something* that can get someone into the camp without raising an alert. From here, kill soldiers (preferably in their sleep), steal or destroy equipment (preferably expensive magical gear that protects them from other avenues of attack), or whatever other unpleasant things come to mind. Since this should be done with minions, it doesn't actually matter if some of the attempts fail.

- Harrass them with occasional magic attacks. Let off a fireball from max distance. Leave. Repeat several times a day. Bind some outsiders with long range slas and a method to evade retaliation (teleportation or a good fly speed would be enough) and have them attack the unit non stop. This won't kill many people, but it will drain resources (don't forget that some aoe attacks will destroy equipment) and will make members of the unit hate their existence (fun fact - most 0hd creatures need to sleep, and most outsiders do not). Mix this up with a few lightning fast raids every now and again so that the unit has to treat every piddly acid arrow as a full scale attack.

- Tamper with their sources of food and drink. Unless the unit has dozens of sustaining spoons (or even more costly alternatives), they will need to get their supplies from somewhere. Infect the food with some diseases, or just ruin it.

- Abuse dominate hard. Really hard. Find some low level vampires to control so it can be spammed. The DCs might suck but that isn't the point. Don't point the vampires at the unit. Point them at the villagers they will interact with. At this point every average Joe the unit sees could try to do them in. Bonus points for, through careful planning, illusions or enchantments, making the unit appear to be slaughtering innocent villagers.

- Contact disease. Mix some plague zombie blood (or whatever else tickles your fancy) with some sand and cover the unit with it by dropping it from 10km up in the air on a windless day. While invisible. Repeat each day, because there is pretty much nothing the unit can do about it (assuming they need to travel above ground between cities). Healing magic can remove disease, but unless they have an unlimited source of it, this will make them bleed resources non-stop.


Note that every one of the above tactics can be done without getting within 100 miles of the unit. Yay for minions.


But the point of all this is an Anti-Caster Army. Having a bunch of natural attacks doesn't benefit the army or specifically counter a caster. We have archers for a ton of attacks per round, and they can do it from 100 ft. away. Heck, we could make them Zen Archers for good saves and a Stunning Fist that targets the caster's bad save.

I'm not saying your build isn't cool, I like Natural Attacks, but they do nothing for the army.


DominusMegadeus wrote:

But the point of all this is an Anti-Caster Army. Having a bunch of natural attacks doesn't benefit the army or specifically counter a caster. We have archers for a ton of attacks per round, and they can do it from 100 ft. away. Heck, we could make them Zen Archers for good saves and a Stunning Fist that targets the caster's bad save.

I'm not saying your build isn't cool, I like Natural Attacks, but they do nothing for the army.

If you have a army of level 17 zen archers for your anti magic unit. I agree they Will beat most other options presentet here:)


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Check out this excellent old ENWorld thread: The Curious Case of Sir Phineas Aldman (scrolld down or CTRL-F search for Phineas Aldman), presenting the tale of Sir Phineas leader of a mage slayer unit in great detail and with a few custom items (3.5).

an excerpt:
[...]
Some of the conceits we explored during that period were as follows:

- Magic doesn’t necessarily break the laws and theories of science, but rather operates in a higher realm of understanding of such.
- Magic is a codified practice of creating results, similar to any other science, and should be treated as such in any world.
- Magic can benefit from the addition of technology.
On the other hand, a society of magicians would seek out ways to weaken or disable the ability to perform magic, in any way possible.
- Magic relies on belief that the effect will work, concentration, a strong force of will, and unique sympathetic objects (expressed in D&D by Concentration, Level, and material components/foci.)
- It is a logical fallacy that one must ‘fight fire with fire’ when it comes to magic; though a good offense is the best defense (mage v. mage), there would logically be some development of ‘common’ materials which could affect magic.
- Those who have a natural tolerance or ability to be unaffected by magic would survive longer in a society which is reliant on magic, and pass on these traits (expressed as Spell Resistance observable in Drow, certain Outsiders, etc.)

B and I came to the conclusion that the best ‘common’ materials to deal with a mage would be something to affect his concentration. Phineas began to look for possible materials to perform this task which would be usable by the masses, and not rely on the ability to hit and damage to trigger a Concentration check. The character was relentless; using his natural talents in Gather Information, Diplomacy, and Knowledge of the Art, along with a cohort who enjoyed using his talents in Alchemy and a stipend afforded him by the Grouse (and later, though finagling, the College Imperial) he (and we) finally found the answer.

Teargas. It seems extremely simple, but of course in-game it was revelation. For six months of in-game seeking during a lull in our campaign (the winter months are unkind to marching armies, and a plague swept the cities surrounding making for poor conditions for large traveling groups of militia) Phineas, his cohort, and the party Loremaster hit pay dirt. A combination of agents, including alchemical processes, and a small alchemical ‘charge’ (similar to a tindertwig or controlled powder burn) could cause the dispersal from a grenade of a noxious cloud, which would irritate the mucous membranes to a point of agony. Most effective against mages, it could easily affect other targets too. We could create a version which would cause a Concentration check to maintain casting potential, around the levels of a good hit from a weapon (DC: 15-20, 14 + 1d6 [the d6 for potency of the specific grenade at dispersal). The tear gas would not be overpowering but definitely a surprise (gusts of wind would become a battlefield necessity, for instance).

However, it would be prohibitively expensive due to the amount of alchemical items involved (we came out at a cost approaching 160-200 gp/unit, market price of 320-400 gp) to issue them to every soldier. Therefore, elite soldiers expecting contact with the enemy’s spellcasters would be outfitted, along with any nobleman. The devices were considered contraband for anyone who was not part of the Imperial Guard, with strict penalties for carriage of the weapons . . . of course, the group was allowed to purchase them at a slight markup from the master-of-arms until a point where they arose to a status in the Peerage.

Now, this doesn’t tip the scales against mages. In fact, there are plenty of easy solutions to the issue that a group of individuals boasting genius IQs should be able to puzzle through in a few hours (theoretically) and have finished in a few weeks. The first battle using the magebane prototypes was a rout when it came to the casters; several failed their saves outright, while others failed in intervening rounds. Thus was born the tradition of Gust of Wind being an important enough spell for land AND sea casters to keep in their spellbook for further use. Technology trumped magic, but magic advanced faster.

Later, there were additional inventions; a slow-burning narcotic haze which would reduce Intelligence, in essence ‘locking out’ mages from using spells in social situations while heightening the enjoyment of revels by the Empress’s courtiers. Then came the possibilities implied by acids and other irritating and damaging liquids to force Concentration checks. The cohort, Phineas, and his group of R&D minions advanced the cause of anti-mage warfare over the next 5 in-game years to a point where, with the proper equipment, mages could be counteracted on the battlefield handsomely. A new player, obsessed with constructs and grafting, began performing research into grafting armored plating to soldiers… culminating in the first appearances of ‘living construct’ analogues in the setting. Short-term spell-resistance in tattoo/etching forms, cribbed from the use of tattoos as use-activated magic items in a primitive culture outside of the Imperium’s holdings, became de rigueur amongst noblemen.

All of these ideas were filtered, altered, and became a sort of technological Renaissance for the game. Thousands of years of magical and anti-magical researches came to the fore. Spellcasters began researching long-range spells, curses, and other non-artillery spells to bring the fight to these Young Turks. Phineas took some real damage (suffering a fearsome Heartclutch at Crosstree Manor, and having his left arm torn off by the demon assistant of a mastermind demonbinder who had hired on to train the Lesser Crown’s sorcerers in the arts of Summoning at Lichenstone) but he’s still pounding it out in the setting.

I talked to B a few nights ago about how I should frame this article. He agreed that it would be easier to present the narrative, along with our asides, and explain some of the interesting things which pop up when you actively develop your further thoughts on magic. In twenty years, perhaps the Lesser Crown or the newly-crowned Empress Deliah IV will have new methods of construction and warfare built from these simple sciences. I do not advocate that all of the ideas present in this setting would work for all settings; however, this is an exploration through one DM’s eyes of items which could assist you. Below, I’ve placed some simple write-ups for some of the items listed above, or given current analogues in published materials (with citation). If anything, this will give your fighters something to lob at the local mages. However, maybe I’ve helped to open your eyes to some unique tools for fighting mages.

[...]

Sir Phineas Aldman (Rough 3.5 Compatible Build) Old Human Fighter 3 (Thug Variant)/Rogue 4/Occult Slayer 5 with Able Learner and Mage Slayer Feats. Phineas has the Heart of Steel (Faiths of Eberron p. 157) and Mighty Arm (Faiths of Eberron p. 158). Phineas has taken the Slow Flaw (due to the weightiness of his arm and the strain on the body of his mechanical heart, Unearthed Arcana p. 91 ) to grant himself an additional feat. This flaw has been subsumed by his later acquisition of a magic item to boost his base speed. His normal armor is a mithral (or similar material) breastplate which has Spell Resistance properties. He also carries a blade known as the Coldiron Cleaver (a uniquely-crafted +2 greater spell-storing longsword with a Greater Dispel placed into it upon request and payment of ½ the normal cost) and the Magister’s Mallet (a +1 Disrupting Warhammer). His wealth is unusually high due to his connections in the Imperial Court.

His cohort (Bryce Stallingsworth) is a courtier (Bard 6/Rogue 2) with an extensive knowledge of magic and alchemical processes.

Magebane Grenades (current) are as listed in the article. The current schematic is derived from the Teargas Grenade description (d20 Modern P. 105) with adjustments as noted in the article.

Qishi, a extract incense derived from a plant found in the province of Qishin, has properties of a mildly (low) addictive drug (for addiction stats/fort saves see Unearthed Arcana p. 203-204). When burned and inhaled, Qishi causes mild euphoria and a tingling, pleasant sensation which makes focusing on spellcasting difficult; a spellcaster must make a Concentration check (DC: 15 + spell level + 2*(hrs. of exposure)) to successfully perform a spell while under the effects of Qishi. This effect dissipates after an hour without exposure to the drug. The overdose for Qishi is 5 hours of exposure in a 48 hr. period. Standard Fortitude Save rules apply, and upon failure the exposed individual suffers 1d8 temporary ability damage to a random mental score. Common Qishi costs 25 gp/dose if available.

Royal Qishi, a more refined form of the drug, can be burned; this drug causes a greater level of euphoria, along with a mild hallucinatory side effect. The effects of Qishi last longer in the system (6 hrs. from exposure), and its effect is stronger (DC: 20 spell level + 3*(hrs. of exposure). Royal Qishi is a highly addictive drug. The exposure overdose is the same as Common Qishi, however, the ability damage is 1d8 to two mental stats. Royal Qishi is prohibitively expensive, at 250 gp/dose if available.


Dot for future follows.


Also +1 on the reading recommendation. Glen Cook's Black Company is an amazing read.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DominusMegadeus wrote:

But the point of all this is an Anti-Caster Army. Having a bunch of natural attacks doesn't benefit the army or specifically counter a caster. We have archers for a ton of attacks per round, and they can do it from 100 ft. away. Heck, we could make them Zen Archers for good saves and a Stunning Fist that targets the caster's bad save.

I'm not saying your build isn't cool, I like Natural Attacks, but they do nothing for the army.

Ultimate campaign does have mechanics for bulding armies with both spellcasting and armies with properties that work against said armies.

You use army mechanics against other armies, not individuals.


DominusMegadeus wrote:

But the point of all this is an Anti-Caster Army. Having a bunch of natural attacks doesn't benefit the army or specifically counter a caster. We have archers for a ton of attacks per round, and they can do it from 100 ft. away. Heck, we could make them Zen Archers for good saves and a Stunning Fist that targets the caster's bad save.

I'm not saying your build isn't cool, I like Natural Attacks, but they do nothing for the army.

I wasn't selling my build for the anti-caster army. I only brought it up because multiclassing is a way to bring up a character's saving throws very quickly over just a few levels, and that build has that.

I only went into detail about how the build worked to answer your question.

That being said, I do believe the build I was referring to would make a fine addition to the anticaster force. Maybe not so much for the natural attacks, but for it being an Attack of Opportunity build. Having an AoO melee character in a wizard's face can really wreck his day. It would be more optimized for the antimagic army with some other features instead, like maybe the Step Up (and Strike) feats, Disruptive, and things like that.

Archers are good, and I proposed archers, but I think a mixed core with some melee, some horse, some foot, and some bowmen in all combinations is sound tactical doctrine.

Sovereign Court

If you want to have anti-magic troopers in addition to the special forces - a phalanx style unit works pretty well against mid level casters.

Just take a bunch of human warrior level 2's. Give them four mirror armor, tower shields, small lucrene hammers, and 10 javilins each. From a fluff perspective - it makes them cheap to equip. (only 100gp each)

Feats: Shield Wall/Saving Shield.

Str:12
Dex:15
Con:11
Int:9
Wis:10
Cha:8

HP:11
AC:22
Fort:+3
Will:+0
Ref:+2

Put a group of 25 or so in there to coordinate with your special forces - and they can be a constant annoyance. Their effective AC is 26. As they move up the battlefield, they can make a single move, and each ready an action to use their shields for full cover against arrows or AOEs.

Sure - other spells work on them no problem - but AOEs are the only way to get rid of them quickly. Once within 30-50 feet, they can basically shut down a spellcaster or two for the special forces team by readying actions with javilins to hit them if they cast a spell. Sure, they only have a +2 to hit, but with 25 of them, until higher levels a few of them are sure to hit, forcing a pretty decent concentration check out of them. (If only 3 hit, the average damage would be 14.175, forcing a concentration check in the high 20's. Even a level 8-9 caster would have less than a 50/50 of still pulling it off.)

In melee, the front two ranks draw their lucrene hammers while keeping their shields out. Their accuracy is pretty bad at a total of -1, but they use aid another out the wazoo. And their reach/brace can make that first round if someone charges them potentially very rough. Plus the back ranks keep chucking javilins.

Again - they're not much of a real threat, but they can be a huge hassle in combo with an elite group. (Technically 24 of of them would be a CR 8, though I don't think they'd deserve quite that on their own. But in combo with something else - they probably do.)

Of course - the other option would just be to dop the whole formation thing and use basically the same build, only with longbows and stealth (you don't need to be very stealthy if you stay 200ft or so away) and ready actions to plug the spellcasters whenever they cast while the elite unit deals with the group.

In that case they'd cost 101 gold each (longbow/studded leather/arrows) - and you might as well switch their strength & con scores around.

Feats: Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot

+4 to hit at long range for d8 damage each. Again - not much, but two dozen bows readying to hit your wizard every round can be rough when you're dealing with a couple of the aforementioned elite troops at the same time.

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