(Sry for my bad english, im from another country!)
So guys, I'm currently gming a Rise of Runelords campaign (this is my first time as a GM) and we are in the thistletop part of the game (book 1). What i see is that the party has a lot of "minor" magic items that they don't know what the do (they have wands, +1 weapons, potions...). There is only one PC that can Detect Magic. So, the magic items are piling up.]
So in your campaigns how do you guys handle this? Do you make your PCS make a test for all items? Or only for magic items that are worth it?
|
As you said the one guy with detect magic has that job. You can detect what an item is by casting detect magic (which he has at will) then making a spell craft check. So long as there is no rush or obvious danger they can take a 10 or a 20. In downtime I generlally just tell my players what they find and what it does unless it's a cursed item. The check is pretty simple as the levels go up so its no real issue I have encountered. Others may do this differently.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I typically make them check for every item they found. Early on, they were unable to identify anything. Once they realized just how unaware they were, they hired an NPC to identify things until they next leveled, and then invested heavily in being able to properly identify their equipment. One GM I know creates index cards for every item that his party won't automatically identify, folded over and taped shut. There is a spellcraft check on the outside, and the item's description on the inside. If you can successfully roll the check, you get to break the tape and read the description. It takes more prep time, but saves time at the table.
Don't forget that failing the check by five or more can give them a false assumption. This has led to several amusing moments where the party has tried to sell and/or destroy valuable equipment because they believed it was cursed, and further amusement when they could not identify actual cursed equipment.
Some magical items actually come inscribed with identifying marks, up to and including their command word.
So if the PCs won't identify their loot, make the loot identify itself.
i liked identify when it cost more (100 gp pearl)
it kept the magic a bit more mysterious.
I think most people now a days don't take that spell because they need the slots for other things (especially sorc) and they max their spellcraft checks anyway.
Its kinda simple process that when yu are getting ready to rest, one of the things you do while eating your iron rations and settling down for the night is…."OK what did we get?"
Identify and split up the items.
to move the story and action along, we rarely ID magic right then and there (unless of course we need healing)
I personally prefer the way elrond IDs magic in fellowship of the ring… have always loved the bard legend lore for that.
in the movies it's kind of funny, you would thing the sword of the king of gondolin (orcrist) was the millennium falcon, because everyone who sees it instantaneously recognizes it for what it is (except of course Thorin… too funny)
Wow it got a lot o fast and nice posts!
Yeah i see that this will become a easy thing in the future, maybe because the PCS are low level (3) they are struggling with identifyng. What make it worse, i think, is that The only caster is a summoner so he doesn't have a good int modifier which makes his spellcraft skill fall a bit.
I'll try to remember him to make everyday the tests for the loot, maybe it can help him and the party!
Yeah, that summoner may be good at party buffs and summoning, but he really is deficient as an all-around arcanist. I've found magic identification to be a weak spot for my summoner too.
Wow it got a lot o fast and nice posts!
Yeah i see that this will become a easy thing in the future, maybe because the PCS are low level (3) they are struggling with identifyng. What make it worse, i think, is that The only caster is a summoner so he doesn't have a good int modifier which makes his spellcraft skill fall a bit.
I'll try to remember him to make everyday the tests for the loot, maybe it can help him and the party!
identify is a first level spell… scrolls or even a wand should be an relatively easy thing to get your hands on…does anyone else in the party have spell craft as a skill? can't they aid another?
You can have a +10 at level 1 in Spellcraft. Wizards are still useful. If the players do not have a Wizard, Witch or Arcanist then have one who will identify the item, for a price of course.
If the players do him a favor—Which they don't know they had to do anyway to progress the story—he will identify the items for free. Maybe even give them an item that lets him identify the item remotely!
Let him take 20 on it, unless he's in a hurry for some reason. It'll take 60 rounds (10 minutes), and since you'll already know the DC, you can just write down what he can and can't ID beforehand.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It basically just takes time. It's 3 rounds to identify an item. You can take 20 and do it in 60 rounds. A typical Wizard probably has 18 int and spellcraft is class skill so at 1st level would have +8. So 28 at 1st level gets you pretty much any minor magic item you might come across. The DC is 15 + the item caster level. So a +1 weapon would DC 18 and wizard could do it 3 rounds taking 10.
So take your summoner, assuming 10 int. Spellcraft is a class skill so at level 3 assuming they put skill points to Spellcraft the should +6. So take 20 still should identify most everything. They just have to do it in down time. They could take chance a roll, you get 1 roll per day to identify a specific item. If it's CL 3 item they just need to roll a 12 or higher.
You can't take 20 on identifying magic items. Well, I mean, you can, but it takes 20 days since you have to wait a day between retry attempts.
That's why I said 'just let him'. Hassling over ID'ing magic items isn't worth the effort, IMHO.
In our last campaign, we just were told what they were, assuming the items are bog-standard. The fun parts of the game aren't identifying the items but instead using them. The odds and ends we took time to identify, because those usually came with unusual abilities. But really, you're all there to have fun, whether through slaughtering the bad guys or political intrigue, so let them know what they've got and go back to the real fun :)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Gandaff the Wizard that exists in every single town ever can identify items for you. He has a cousin named Deckard Cain.
Maybe I'm a jerk when I GM, but if the party has four or more members, and they can't do something between the four of them, I don't reward them for not covering their bases. If nobody can use spellcraft sufficiently, has identify as a spell, or can afford a scroll of it between four people...well...sucks for them, really.
I have the same approach to any role, really. Didn't have anyone ready to stop traps between the four of you? Gonna hurt when you open that chest, then. Nobody can cast spells, not ANY of you? You're gonna hate when the wraith shows up. And so on.
It's the players' responsibility to cooperatively approach character creation and the roles/needs associated with it IMO.
I do make allowances for smaller groups.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I consider taking the PC's abilities (and inadequacies) into account in adventure design as a basic responsibility of being a GM; in other words, it's your job. You're supposed to provide a challenge, yes? "You have no trapfinder, so here's a bunch of debilitating and lethal traps" is not a challenge. It's the same reason you don't throw a Balor against a level 1 party.
Honestly, I personally find identifying magic items somewhat tedious and slows the game down because I often haven't got the patience to look up the DC to identify every magic item.
So I just made Identify a 0 level spell.
I don't design games to purposefully gimp players inadequacies; however, neither am I going to coddle them if they don't cover their bases.
I have never run a game with a party of entirely newbies. There has always been, at most, one, whom is usually under the tutoring of a more experienced player during creation time and through the game most of the time. Most of my players when I GM have been, however, veterans of at least two games.
Furthermore, APs exist. Lot of people run them out-of-the-box. It's actually how Paizo makes a lot of money, I hear....some GMs don't want to change everything within to cater to the whims of a group that doesn't feel like covering all their bases.
Grinding the game to a halt so we can roll to identify all the loot found (perhaps involving rolls from everyone at the table, one by one, if the designated identifier fails) is an exercise in tedium and time wasting, and frankly we have better things we could be doing in the session. I play it as unless the item in question has something special about it, i.e. it's unique, extremely rare, or has some sinister downside to it, the characters can just figure it out with a little bit of trying.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fun story, I was in a group where we played D&D 3.5. We found some magic loot and wanted it identified. The DM said it would cost like 1,200 GP for five magic items. We as players said it costs 100 GP per spell so it should be 500. The DM said that's the wholesale cost, but there was only one wizard in town and there was a big mark-up. The party wizard player said "fine, I'll buy a scroll of identify, put it in my spellbook, and identify the items." The DM was pissed and said the scroll would cost way above the normal price, but it was less than doing all five items so we paid for it. This exchange took up most of a three hour session as we just wanted to know what we had and the DM thought we were trying to pull something.
That DM moves away, the group stays together, but we switch to Pathfinder. The next time there are magic items, someone makes a spellcraft check, and the DM says, "It's a +1 sword," and we move on with the damn game. Beautiful new rule there.
There are a few oddities, but usually someone will roll up a Wizard, Witch, Magus or other character with decent spellcraft. I have found the only item that people can't identify on a regular basis is a first level pearl of power. The DC is 32 and that takes until 4th level to beat for most. I think it was word count or something but all pearls of power have a CL of 17 even though it seems to me it should be spell level x 2 -1.
I just have to ask, Zhayne, if you have four people who make four martial characters without a skilled role...say, I don't know, fighter, barbarian, paladin, and cavalier...and you were planning on running an AP...do you just go, "Well, they didn't plan at all what they were doing as a group, but you know what, why not completely edit the entirety of this thing and run with it as is?"
Shoehorn an NPC or three in there to cover the bases maybe?
Sorry, but I'm of the belief that it's a collaborative game. Part of that collaboration includes collaboration of character creation on part of the players.
More crazy fun has been had by PCs trying to use un-identified magic items than almost anything else I can think of.
Back in the day, I can't tell you how many times we got hit with the belt of gender swapping. Everyone wants the belt of giant strength, then they end up the wrong gender and we all laugh at them. Happened at least once to everyone in the gaming group. Now it is much easier to figure out and cursed items don't show up very often, I haven't encountered one since 3.0.
You cannot "take a 20" on spellcraft Identify rolls because there is a consequence for failure: not identifying, which means you can't try again until the following day.
Taking a 20 infers all possible results of the roll, which means inferred failed rolls as well as success rolls. A failed roll means you can't try again until the next day.
"Taking a 20" for spellcraft checks to identify magic items is expressly against the rules as written.
You cannot "take a 20" on spellcraft Identify rolls because there is a consequence for failure: not identifying, which means you can't try again until the following day.
Taking a 20 infers all possible results of the roll, which means inferred failed rolls as well as success rolls. A failed roll means you can't try again until the next day.
"Taking a 20" for spellcraft checks to identify magic items is expressly against the rules as written.
Huh.
What do you know, you learn something every day.Thanks!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know what?
I just tell them what the items are when they find them.
Life's too short for the paperwork.
The sense of wonder is much easier to achieve when they first pick up the weapon than sorting it out of a pile later on.
One method evokes that gleaming sword atop the dragon's hoard, the other requires a damned ledger and an accountant.
It ain't RAW, but the RAW is not what I want to play in this case. If your group is still committing valuable session time to this (and enjoying it) more power to you, but it is not for me. Maybe it would be appropriate in a setting that was vastly less magic-rich than Pathfinder tends to be.
|
Back in the day, I can't tell you how many times we got hit with the belt of gender swapping. Everyone wants the belt of giant strength, then they end up the wrong gender and we all laugh at them. Happened at least once to everyone in the gaming group. Now it is much easier to figure out and cursed items don't show up very often, I haven't encountered one since 3.0.
It's tempting to throw in a cursed item at my players, but they are all fairly low-level, so they're still scrambling for magic equipment of any kind and masterwork equipment. They're just starting to broach the point where such items might come up in chests, and they're facing ludicrous amounts of magic cultists in the near future. I think I may roll on the table to see what they get. If it's something benign enough I may slap it on a level before they get "break enchantment".
Come to think of it I really should start teaching the value of the "Remove X" line of spells. I need to look up charisma and wisdom poisons.
One method evokes that gleaming sword atop the dragon's hoard, the other requires a damned ledger and an accountant.
I hear ya. I do however like the identifying mechanic for what it is, but some items I simply have them identify themselves to the wielder for exactly the reasons you cite above. It can be more dramatic and exciting to pick up that sword from the treasure trove and know immediately that it is up your alley.
|
I personally think Knowledge: Arcana should be used to identify magic items, as there is little way of knowing what spells went into creating an item after it has been created.
That being said, I don't inflict my thoughts on any of the games I run, I simply allow spellcraft checks as per the core books.
|
|
Identify is your friend.
Remember that, stupid as it sounds, it is a DC 32 Spellcraft check to ID a level 1 Pearl of Power. Seriously.
Definitely make outside resources available to the party for IDing the stuff they found, probably just costing it as spellcaster services, Identify is SL1, CL variable,, times 10 gp depends on how much you want the NPC able to ID for the party.
I would tend to make the NPC Wizard the same CL as the APL, so 30 gp for an ID for each item.
Remember that potions can be IDed with Perception checks, or, if the party has an alchemist, with a Craft (Alchemy) check.
A summoner can just build his eidolon for IDing stuff. Give it spellcraft as class skill, minor magic for detect magic and skilled spellcraft. With just one rank in it its at +10.
A summoner can just build his eidolon for IDing stuff. Give it spellcraft as class skill, minor magic for detect magic and skilled spellcraft. With just one rank in it its at +10.
I hope you are suggesting that as a "good" and/or "cost effective" idea ironically.
@ Kinevon: sorry, but it's a DC 18 check to identify a L1 pearl. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ouz
Using detect magic, an INT based caster, and spellcraft is nearly automatic magic item ID. +8 at first level is very reasonable, and taking 10 will get most stuff you'll find. If taking 10 doesn't cut it, that adds to the mystery for the PCs but shouldn't become the purpose of the campaign.
If you want them to burn a little effort and some resources, that's fine. Most NPC casters will have more than enough spellcraft to identify the basic goods, and anything fancy may create intrigue or plot. If you want an item to be a plot element, that's fun, but only if that's your purpose. If item research takes away from the story, you're now playing "guess that item" and not adventuring.
I'm in RotRL right now, and my crafting L9 Wizard has a +25 spellcraft and +20 UMD. Also, if you have more than 1 PC with Detect Magic, the odds of identifying basic items is very, very good.
When I GM, I agree with most of the posters:
- Wasting inordinate time or turning games into tedium is miserable. If I want to track groceries and balance a checkbook, I have a real life. I play games for fantasy, adventure, and a break from reality.
- When a GM claims they run a "gritty" game, I've found they are mostly just jerks trying to exert power or control. Having a 5th level character track trail rations to avoid starvation is miserable. I assume PCs are somewhat capable of living. I've had GMs force-march 12th level characters without gear across a desert, leading to a TPK via thirst. What a horrible session!
- I also employ the concept used by pennywit where I hint or give partial explanations. However, when I GM I do that with magic items, plot, locations, or just about everything. I try to keep an element of translucency to the game, despite the rules.
@ Kinevon: sorry, but it's a DC 18 check to identify a L1 pearl. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ouz
You might want to re-read that FAQ, it says nothing of the kind. At best it says that a Pearl of Power 1st could be crafted as CL 1.
Also as was pointed out up-thread, you can't take 10 on identifying, as you're 'distracted' by maintaining concentration on the spell.
Many items don't even really need an identify or spellcraft check to simply *use* them. Magic weapons, shields and armor are a case in point. PCs can see they are masterwork, so whether somebody has detected them as magic or not, it's a good bet that it is beneficial to use them. I figure that after a battle or two the PCs figure out the numericalvalue behind the magic, just to simplify things for the DM.
As long as they remain unidentified, it's up to the DM to make the necessary adjustments. When a player says "I got a 17 with that glowing masterwork longsword we found" and the DM knows their adversary has a 18 AC, then he knows to declare a successful hit.
Aside from that, making a spellcraft roll with that unlimited-use detect magic cantrip really doesn't take much time. Other magic items can have a clue to their function or an actual command word inscribed on them, at DM discretion.
Finally there is always the UMD "use blindly" entry.
If some items remain unidentified for a while, it's not a major big deal, either - if the players are so ill-prepared that they didn't bother to have one of them play a wizard (like my current group: fighter, barbarian, paladin and alchemist), then they surely have pals back in town who can identify items in exchange for a small favor (or a few dusty Thassolonian parchments).
I view the detection phase as a DM opportunity for more roleplay, when some cool item is involved. Otherwise the PCs can usually just swing it unidentified.