I've got the impression that archetypes that give a non-Gunslinger class guns can be pretty underwhelming. What is the root of this issue?
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The fact that you don't get dex-to-damage with the non-Gunslingers seems to sum it up to me. It's also why I never go past 5th with Gunslingers most of the time.
Yeah, any gun using archetype that doesn't get dex to damage is terrible. Since the only one I know of that gets Dex to damage is the Trench Fighter (and I believe they get it earlier than the Gunslinger, in fact), I think all but that one is pretty bad.
I know Holy Gun can do some neat things, I'm just unsure how.
Theoretically, Picaroon is AMAZING because at 7th level it provides you with a free Improved Two Weapon Feint usable with GUNS so you remove their Dex to ac...unfortunately no Dex to damage.
5 Slinger into 7 Picaroon allows you to deny the enemy dex to AC with a weapon that normally hits touch...
Trophy hunter is pretty terrible considering it doesn't even give it a gun by RAW, unless they errata'd it.
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Holy crap, you're right. In fact, a simple one-level dip in gunslinger fixes both those issues, boring7. Seems to me a Trench FighterX/Gunslinger1 is better than a gunslinger X (unless that 'slinger is a Musket Master, then you need enough to get reloading down to a free action, which I think is three levels). But it may just be the only way to pull off two-weapon gun fighting at a decent level, given the crapton of feats gun twirling requires.
Yeah, it is pretty cool. Also, I am quite glad that my duel-wielding guns thing took off ^_^ that was a fun bit of feat-mingling to pull off
Yeah, basically the problem is that grit/deeds aren't as big a deal as some designers think. Hence, archetypes which focus on them tend to be poor trades.
The only two that really matter are Quick Clear and Fast Musket
Hey, DEX-to-damage is overrated. There are lots of other ways to enhance static damage using magic, with the side benefit of having magic.
It's subject to the nebulous "buff time" vs. always-on damage argument, but give adventurers some credit, they're usually pretty good at judging the door covered in Abyssal scrawlings and weeping blood as the "boss door."
Going all-out, the Gun Priest I've been working on for PFS can meet and exceed a comparable full 'slinger in terms of raw boring DPS, with the perks of Resist Energy, Invisibility Purge, Air Walk and other divine goodies.
Basically any non-Gunslinger class that can snag static bonuses (paladin, bard, warpriest, etc) should be able to do the archetype proud in my opinion.
I thought the non-Gunslinger Gun-Slinging class archetypes were not PFS kosher.
A couple have snuck in, such as the Spellscar Drifter and I believe a Swashbuckler archetype. They're not very impressive unfortunately.
Gunslinger 1 / Something Cooler X is alive and well though.
A grab-bag of fun Gunslinger-dipping builds, in no particular order:
- Gunslinger 1 / Bard X
* Arcane Duelist for an awesome bonded gun
* Dawnflower Dervish for doubled bardic bonuses
* Archaeologist for some rogue-esque goodies and bonus feats
- Gunslinger 1 / Warpriest X
* Take the Destruction blessing, enjoy bonus feats
* If you can swing the point buy and don't mind more threadbare feat selection, grab Champion of the Faith and enjoy Gun Smites
- Gunslinger 1 / Alchemist X
* Grab more arms, do fun things with many arms
* Fly around with extracts or Beastmorph and rain death from above
- Gunslinger 1 / Investigator X
* Empiricist for an almost completely INT-SAD experience
* Some Alchemist goodies aren't available, but Mutagen and extracts are still on the table and just as sweet
- Gunslinger 1 / Wizard 1 / Eldritch Knight X
* Spellslinger might not be available, but rockin' Gun Knights are still a thing!
* Named Bullet is radical
Meh, just one more reason I loathe PFS. Add it to the pile, over there.
The only two that really matter are Quick Clear and Fast Musket
At least for general fundamentals of the style.
Some of the deeds are nice, particularly with signature deed. Up close and deadly gives +3d6-5d6 of extra damage per hit that is rather nice. Especially since it lacks the strings attached seen with sneak attack- once this gets signature deed, it is just pure GM tears from there
- Gunslinger 1 / Wizard 1 / Eldritch Knight X
* Spellslinger might not be available, but rockin' Gun Knights are still a thing!
* Named Bullet is radical
This is a better way to do a gun mage than the Spellslinger anyways, IMO. The Spellslinger just has way too many downsides and too few class features. The base attack bonus from EK is pretty much more valuable than everything this archetype has to offer, and the gunslinger dip picks up the rest of the slack. Sure you're a caster level behind, but you get to specialize, you'll have more class features, and fewer opposition schools.
This is a better way to do a gun mage than the Spellslinger anyways, IMO. The Spellslinger just has way too many downsides and too few class features. The base attack bonus from EK is pretty much more valuable than everything this archetype has to offer, and the gunslinger dip picks up the rest of the slack. Sure you're a caster level behind, but you get to specialize, you'll have more class features, and fewer opposition schools.
- Gunslinger 1 / Wizard 1 / Eldritch Knight X
* Spellslinger might not be available, but rockin' Gun Knights are still a thing!
* Named Bullet is radical
Spellslinger 1/Sorcerer or Arcanist 19 works fantastically as a spellslinger.
The mistake is to think a spellslinger will ever be making attack rolls with the gun. They don't: they use it purely to buff save DCs. +5 at higher levels is very significant. Not really worth a caster level, but it isn't awful.
You know, half the wizard list with a healthy save DC bonus is perfectly viable. Spellslingers are fine as is. It may be a little rocky at character level 1-3 due to not having the school spells & so running out of spells easily, but at those levels actually shooting someone with the gun might be a worthwhile action.
Illusion, Evocation, Transmutation and Conjuration wizard spells (for example) is a better spell list than any non-sorc/wizard in the game and will not often cause regret.
You know, half the wizard list with a healthy save DC bonus is perfectly viable. Spellslingers are fine as is. It may be a little rocky at character level 1-3 due to not having the school spells & so running out of spells easily, but at those levels actually shooting someone with the gun might be a worthwhile action.
Illusion, Evocation, Transmutation and Conjuration wizard spells (for example) is a better spell list than any non-sorc/wizard in the game and will not often cause regret.
As you know, there are only a few spells that get the bonus to DC.
The spellslinger isn't bad compared to other gun archetypes: it's bad compared to a full wizard!
Is gun-saint paladin with a divine bond (gun) viable?
You mean Holy Gun? It's not great, especially with the fact that they lose Detect Evil as an SLA and have to prepare it as a spell.
As you know, there are only a few spells that get the bonus to DC.
The spellslinger isn't bad compared to other gun archetypes: it's bad compared to a full wizard!
Yeah, but that list that gets the bonus starts with Color Spray and goes on to include enough to work with until rather high levels. Add metamagic (e.g. Dazing Spell) and you can remove the qualifier.
There is a difference in power level, but it's more like the difference between a sorcerer and a normal wizard than anything actually 'bad'.
Holy Gun is significantly worse than a normal paladin that picks up the firearm feats.
Holy Gun is significantly worse than a normal paladin that picks up the firearm feats.
Yerp.
A Paladin using guns is still awesome though.
The problem is that unless you're a Gunslinger (or Trench Fighter), firearms are the worst weapons in the game. They make crossbows look good!