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My guess is that instead of the current grab-bag of evolutions, they'll have specific themed eidolons you can summon based on different creature archetypes.
On the spell front, hard to say what they'll do. Personally, I'd prefer they get rid of their Summon Monster SLA completely and then give them a very specific list of spells to draw from on a standard 9 level spread. Make the summon monster spells an automatic part of their spells known progression, like cure or inflict spells are for the Oracle.
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You know I am a little sad about that the protean nature of eidolon's was really the only truly unique thing summoners have, all casters can summon outsiders but only Summoner's get their own unique elderich abomination. The fact that the summoner will probably lose the ability to summon Rincewind's luggage or obscure tentacled horrors from Japanese folklore because they don't fit into a common archetype will be a real loss for the class.My guess is that instead of the current grab-bag of evolutions, they'll have specific themed eidolons you can summon based on different creature archetypes.
On the spell front, hard to say what they'll do. Personally, I'd prefer they get rid of their Summon Monster SLA completely and then give them a very specific list of spells to draw from on a standard 9 level spread. Make the summon monster spells an automatic part of their spells known progression, like cure or inflict spells are for the Oracle.
Hmm, well if there were several options, it seems to me like the protean nature you mention is still something cool that we would want to keep for at least one of the options. Maybe inevitables.
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Hmm, well if there were several options, it seems to me like the protean nature you mention is still something cool that we would want to keep for at least one of the options. Maybe inevitables.You know I am a little sad about that the protean nature of eidolon's was really the only truly unique thing summoners have, all casters can summon outsiders but only Summoner's get their own unique elderich abomination. The fact that the summoner will probably lose the ability to summon Rincewind's luggage or obscure tentacled horrors from Japanese folklore because they don't fit into a common archetype will be a real loss for the class.My guess is that instead of the current grab-bag of evolutions, they'll have specific themed eidolons you can summon based on different creature archetypes.
On the spell front, hard to say what they'll do. Personally, I'd prefer they get rid of their Summon Monster SLA completely and then give them a very specific list of spells to draw from on a standard 9 level spread. Make the summon monster spells an automatic part of their spells known progression, like cure or inflict spells are for the Oracle.
And on top of this you can just use the present Summoner, even after Unleashed comes out.
The spell list ended up being the biggest issue that cropped up every time I ran a game with summoners. The spells they get and more importantly, how early they got them time and again caused headaches. I have high hopes for the unchained one and am keeping my fingers crossed for something that fits my games a bit better.
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The spell list ended up being the biggest issue that cropped up every time I ran a game with summoners. The spells they get and more importantly, how early they got them time and again caused headaches. I have high hopes for the unchained one and am keeping my fingers crossed for something that fits my games a bit better.
They don't get anything that early compared to an actual full caster, they get most spells at the same class level and their list can't hope to compare to an actual full caster. Admittedly their list has spells at levels that can be taken advantage of, but most of the powerful things you can do with this comes from other classes, like Eternal Potions of Greater Invisibility on Alchemist. And admittedly "weaker then the strongest classes in the game" is a pretty low hurdle to jump over, but still anyone worried about Summoner's should have taken say Wizards and Druids out of their game way before Summoner.
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I actually pretty strongly disagree with that. They get some key spells earlier than full casters like haste and slow and enough other excellent spells that they can fairly easily keep pace with them (ex. greater Invis, heroism/greater version, teleportation/greater, black tentacles, true seeing, maze, and so on).
Why is this partial caster getting spells at a quicker or same rate despite having six levels of spell casting? Not only didn't it make sense to me it created a character that was two characters in one when you consider the eidolon and its power. I'd take a druid or wizard any day over a summoner. It's one of the extremely few things I ban in most games. Which honestly saddens me because I like the class itself and the idea behind it.
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I actually pretty strongly disagree with that. They get some key spells earlier than full casters like haste and slow and enough other excellent spells that they can fairly easily keep pace with them (ex. greater Invis, heroism/greater version, teleportation/greater, black tentacles, true seeing, maze, and so on).
Why is this partial caster getting spells at a quicker or same rate despite having six levels of spell casting? Not only didn't it make sense to me it created a character that was two characters in one when you consider the eidolon and its power. I'd take a druid or wizard any day over a summoner. It's one of the extremely few things I ban in most games. Which honestly saddens me because I like the class itself and the idea behind it.
They get haste and slow... one level earlier than a full caster. It isn't the end of the world, seriously.
OP: Whatever they do to the summoner, it isn't likely to be a direct nerf. The classes still need to be attractive when compared to their core counterparts, or noone will bother to play them. My guess is an unchanged spellbook (possibly with the option of defaulting to the wiz/sorc list instead) and a set of locked-in eidolon progressions. If you want the more fluid, customisable summoner set you just go with the original class.
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Yeah, Summoner is like a full caster that someone tried to sneak in disguised as a 2/3 caster. And a lot of spells are obtained before even full casters get them, which is definitely annoying. I've often played the Summoner as a full caster, only bringing in my eidolon with the summon eidolon spell unless I had a specific purpose I needed him out for an extended period of time for, and he's a better Conjurer than any other class, with a murderbeast win card in his pocket.
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So I was wondering what people think unchained will do the the summoner obviously they intend to nurf both the eidolon and probably the spell list. So assuming they do bring summoners spellcasting in line with other 2/3 casters what would people think would be the right power level for an eidolon.
In my mind the power level aught to be higher than an equivalent level summoned creature or animal companion, otherwise the summoner will end up just being an inferior sorcerer (who can get summons and animal companions and full casting).
The perfect power level would be something that is stronger than an equivalent levelled summoned monster and weaker than an equivalently level rogue. So I was wandering what would actually fit into that particular power niche?
My prediction:
Both the summoner and barbarian will be nerfed. The summoner nerfs will be wildly embraced by most people not playing a summoner. The barbarian nerfs will be reviled and rejected in most games.
Completely ignoring the fact that barbarian is currently a stronger class than summoner.
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So I was wondering what people think unchained will do the the summoner obviously they intend to nurf both the eidolon and probably the spell list. So assuming they do bring summoners spellcasting in line with other 2/3 casters what would people think would be the right power level for an eidolon.
In my mind the power level aught to be higher than an equivalent level summoned creature or animal companion, otherwise the summoner will end up just being an inferior sorcerer (who can get summons and animal companions and full casting).
The perfect power level would be something that is stronger than an equivalent levelled summoned monster and weaker than an equivalently level rogue. So I was wandering what would actually fit into that particular power niche?
My prediction:
Both the summoner and barbarian will be nerfed. The summoner nerfs will be wildly embraced by most people not playing a summoner. The barbarian nerfs will be reviled and rejected in most games.
Completely ignoring the fact that barbarian is currently a stronger class than summoner.
Ok, look... the Barbarian is good. No really it is. But as good as the Summoner? I must have missed the Rage Power that lets them call outsiders to aid them. Because the Planar Binding line, Simulacrum, Maze, Create Demiplane line, on top of a capable melee beast and 3+CHA Gates per day pretty much guarantees the Summoner comes out on top. Barbarian has literally nothing that comes close being as powerful as *any* of that.
And Unleashed can't actually nerf anything, since you can always use the original class as the unchained versions are not replacements.
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I actually pretty strongly disagree with that. They get some key spells earlier than full casters like haste and slow and enough other excellent spells that they can fairly easily keep pace with them (ex. greater Invis, heroism/greater version, teleportation/greater, black tentacles, true seeing, maze, and so on).
Why is this partial caster getting spells at a quicker or same rate despite having six levels of spell casting? Not only didn't it make sense to me it created a character that was two characters in one when you consider the eidolon and its power. I'd take a druid or wizard any day over a summoner. It's one of the extremely few things I ban in most games. Which honestly saddens me because I like the class itself and the idea behind it.
It gets one companion. A Wizard should be able to hit 30 easily with just Animate Dead and Command Undead. The Druid is actually two combat beasts on top a full caster. Both of those are much much scarier then some early spells. Clerics, Oracles, Shamans, Sorcerers, Witches... all of them are far far superior to the summoner in terms of both versatility and power.
The reason that Summoner gets called out for being so powerful I believe is that it forces people with average or low system mastery into the strongest magic school. When you can't pick throw away spells and freely given and expected to use the ultimate swiss army knife spell that is the Summon Monster line, it's natural that players who would otherwise make less then optimal choices end up looking strong.
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So I was wondering what people think unchained will do the the summoner obviously they intend to nurf both the eidolon and probably the spell list. So assuming they do bring summoners spellcasting in line with other 2/3 casters what would people think would be the right power level for an eidolon.
In my mind the power level aught to be higher than an equivalent level summoned creature or animal companion, otherwise the summoner will end up just being an inferior sorcerer (who can get summons and animal companions and full casting).
The perfect power level would be something that is stronger than an equivalent levelled summoned monster and weaker than an equivalently level rogue. So I was wandering what would actually fit into that particular power niche?
My prediction:
Both the summoner and barbarian will be nerfed. The summoner nerfs will be wildly embraced by most people not playing a summoner. The barbarian nerfs will be reviled and rejected in most games.
Completely ignoring the fact that barbarian is currently a stronger class than summoner.
Ok, look... the Barbarian is good. No really it is. But as good as the Summoner? I must have missed the Rage Power that lets them call outsiders to aid them. Because the Planar Binding line, Simulacrum, Maze, Create Demiplane line, on top of a capable melee beast and 3+CHA Gates per day pretty much guarantees the Summoner comes out on top. Barbarian has literally nothing that comes close being as powerful as *any* of that.
And Unleashed can't actually nerf anything, since you can always use the original class as the unchained versions are not replacements.
You mean the rage powers that render them all but immune to magic while playing rage cycle rocket tag?
And my prediction was; the nerfs in unchained will be forced on the summoners but not the barbarians.
There is no such thing as Immune to Magic. Amazing saves won't help you when there isn't one (like say... Maze). Saves won't help against you Simulacrums of powerful outsiders. Saves won't help against gated in powerful outsiders. The Barbarian simply has to look at the vast army that is the Summoner and go "Ogg screwed." Remember:
Jackie! Listen to Uncle! Magic must fight Magic.
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There is no such thing as Immune to Magic. Amazing saves won't help you when there isn't one (like say... Maze). Saves won't help against you Simulacrums of powerful outsiders. Saves won't help against gated in powerful outsiders. The Barbarian simply has to look at the vast army that is the Summoner and go "Ogg screwed." Remember:
Jackie! Listen to Uncle! Magic must fight Magic.
Thus the inclusion of the word "nearly".
And yes, a combination of godly saves and godly DPR will stop powerful outsider. In a single round.
Edit: please point out to me where Maze and Simulacrum are located on the summoner spell list.
The perfect power level would be something that is stronger than an equivalent levelled summoned monster and weaker than an equivalently level rogue.
To hear people around here, the summoned monster is stronger than the rogue. :P
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My guess, per dev's saying they don't like complicated math during combat that rage will change to be a bit easier for non-math types to handle. That there is a need for this makes me sad, but that is another discussion.
Summoner will be less munchkin-able and more standard options. I can see the need, if you don't have the average player read the summoner 2 to 5 times to get how they work it is easy to build a broken eidolon.
Hope they adjust master summoner and synthesist as they sound fun but bring a whole new level of problems.
But this is just my opinion, take it for what you will.
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My guess, per dev's saying they don't like complicated math during combat that rage will change to be a bit easier for non-math types to handle. That there is a need for this makes me sad, but that is another discussion.
Eh, it's not that surprising, really. People have the same issues with the Barbarian for the same reason high level can have math that's really frustrating. It's not that the math is difficult: it's that the math can be very time consuming. Death by a thousand cuts and all that.
Barbarian Rage effects your, Strength (attacks and saving throws), Constitution (hit points and fort saves), your armor class, and your will saves. In short: Rage effects every aspect of a character except for skills. That is a pain in the ass to recalculate multiple times a session. I have seen people suggest that a player should bring a second character sheet with the benefits of rage and commons buffs already applied, and just switch to that when they activate rage. That is an absurd amount of work for what should be a relatively simple class to play.
Edit: please point out to me where Maze and Simulacrum are located on the summoner spell list.I believe it's under the gated in solar's miracle spell but I might be wrong.
Maze is a 6th level summoner spell. Simulacrum is a 5th level summoner spell.
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There is no such thing as Immune to Magic. Amazing saves won't help you when there isn't one (like say... Maze). Saves won't help against you Simulacrums of powerful outsiders. Saves won't help against gated in powerful outsiders. The Barbarian simply has to look at the vast army that is the Summoner and go "Ogg screwed." Remember:
Jackie! Listen to Uncle! Magic must fight Magic.
Thus the inclusion of the word "nearly".
And yes, a combination of godly saves and godly DPR will stop powerful outsider. In a single round.
Edit: please point out to me where Maze and Simulacrum are located on the summoner spell list.
The funny thing is that maze and simulacrum ARE on the summoner spell list. So.... what is your point exactly?
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For the love of all that is good, I hope the new barbarian isn't a watered down nerf. Rage powers are literally the best thing to happen to martial characters in Pathfinder.
As for the summoner, I hope something billed as "Pathfinder Unleashed" will not be just watered down nerfs of old classes. What I see the summoner being is completely eidolon-less. No synthesist, no pouncing nightmare of doom, no ridiculous AC. Instead, the class will focus on the summon monster ability. You know, the actual summoning spells that are generally neglected in favor of the eidolon.
What I'd like to see: scaling summoner monster similar to what we have now, with options to expand and customize the class such as adding creatures to your summon list, buffing summons in various ways, and access perhaps to things like summon nature's ally.
No eidolon, and I suspect the spell list will take a nerf bat to the face as well. Given the Paizo design team's stance on new spell lists as of the ACG, I think the sorcerer/wizard list (up to six levels) is a more likely choice than hacking and adapting the summoner list.
That would still be a powerful class and not just a terrible version of the present summoner, given the focus on summon monster over the eidolon.
I agree that these unchained classes will be more broadly different from the originals.
I think summon monster could be charisma times per day, but if your eidolon gets removed and can't be resummoned for 24 hours then you immediately get 3 more summons. That way you have summons as a fall back if your eidolon dies but you can't simply dismiss him to cast as many summon monsters.
Some evolutions should have increasing costs to balance abomination builds against standard monster builds. For example, every extra limbs evolution past your base form should cost a cumulative amount, so having a 6 armed quadraped won't be so tempting.
Summoner stats need to matter more. A charisma of 16 is too acceptable of a place to stop raising that score. The maximum number of attacks your eidolon can use could be based on your charisma bonus rather than a table value.
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It gets one companion. A Wizard should be able to hit 30 easily with just Animate Dead and Command Undead. The Druid is actually two combat beasts on top a full caster. Both of those are much much scarier then some early spells. Clerics, Oracles, Shamans, Sorcerers, Witches... all of them are far far superior to the summoner in terms of both versatility and power.The reason that Summoner gets called out for being so powerful I believe is that it forces people with average or low system mastery into the strongest magic school. When you can't pick throw away spells and freely given and expected to use the ultimate swiss army knife spell that is the Summon Monster line, it's natural that players who would otherwise make less then optimal choices end up looking strong.
This all day long. A summoner after 13 falls behind quickly to all you mentioned. I'm about to start a high level game and I had 2 characters build one summoner and one druid, the druid hands down was twice the character the summoner was. Main issue being I couldn't have everything at once like I could with the druid and I had to share magic items with the eidolon.
I think what happens is on average people play low power, low level, and low stats games with people who don't care to optimize then they cry foul because the eidolon shows them up. Yet I see no reason in banning them and not druids, hunters, sylvan sorcerers, nature shamans, nature clerics, and others I've missed.
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Maze is a 6th level summoner spell. Simulacrum is a 5th level summoner spell.
As per the PRD:
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 8
School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
and to address Undone using Gate to get a Miracle
School conjuration (creation or calling); Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
None of those spells are on the summoner spell list.
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Maze is a 6th level summoner spell. Simulacrum is a 5th level summoner spell.As per the PRD:
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 8School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7and to address Undone using Gate to get a Miracle
School conjuration (creation or calling); Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9None of those spells are on the summoner spell list.
Per the PRD: (Summoner)
5th-Level Summoner Spells—banishment, creeping doom, dispel magic (greater) ethereal jaunt, heroism (greater), hungry pit*, invisibility (mass), planar adaptation*, planar binding, plane shift, repulsion, rejuvenate eidolon (greater)*, sequester, , spell turning, summon monster VII, teleport (greater), true seeing, wall of iron.
6th-Level Summoner Spells—antipathy, binding, charm monster (mass), dimensional lock, discern location, dominate monster, incendiary cloud, , planar adaptation (mass)*, planar binding (greater), protection from spells, summon monster VIII, sympathy, teleportation circle.
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Maze is a 6th level summoner spell. Simulacrum is a 5th level summoner spell.As per the PRD:
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 8School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7and to address Undone using Gate to get a Miracle
School conjuration (creation or calling); Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9None of those spells are on the summoner spell list.
For the record this is why I use d20pfsrd, since it actually updates the level section of old spells. Give it a try. Now if they would just get around to some of the newer classes...
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Maze is a 6th level summoner spell. Simulacrum is a 5th level summoner spell.As per the PRD:
I'll let you in on a little secret: when you are looking at the rules text for a specific spell, you aren't seeing the total rules text for that spell. You're seeing the rules text as it is printed in the book it's from, so of course the text for spells in the Core Rulebook won't include that the spell is on the summoner spell list. The same can be said for the witch and inquisitor spell lists, and the alchemist formulae list. You could also note that haste and summon monster I-IX aren't on the summoner spell list, that divine favor isn't on the inquisitor spell list, and that witches don't get detect magic according to their rules text on the PRD
As for Gate. Summoner's gain it as an SLA (with the spelled out exception that they must still pay material costs) as part of their summon monster ability progression at level 19.
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The prd never updates the core spells to state if the new classes get them or not. It can make things confusing.
While I was aware of them on the list (I've read it before) I thought it would be more appropriate to comment on why in the ever loving hell they get gate 10+ times per day as an SLA.
Eh, Gate is prohibitively expensive to cost ten times per day (they do still pay the 50k GP), and it uses up their resource pool of summon monster VII and IX SLAs. They only get summon monster VII as a spell.
It's absurd power with a very tiny cost, which sound about average for 19th level in Pathfinder.
While I was aware of them on the list (I've read it before) I thought it would be more appropriate to comment on why in the ever loving hell they get gate 10+ times per day as an SLA.Eh, Gate is prohibitively expensive to cost ten times per day (they do still pay the 50k GP), and it uses up their resource pool of summon monster VII and IX SLAs. They only get summon monster VII as a spell.
It's absurd power with a very tiny cost, which sound about average for 19th level in Pathfinder.
Well it's only 10k per casting and you only have to pay the creature for extended service which shouldn't be necessary. And you can control anything that isn't unique and has less HD then your Caster Level, which allows you to summon a ton of very scary monsters.
While I was aware of them on the list (I've read it before) I thought it would be more appropriate to comment on why in the ever loving hell they get gate 10+ times per day as an SLA.Eh, Gate is prohibitively expensive to cost ten times per day (they do still pay the 50k GP), and it uses up their resource pool of summon monster VII and IX SLAs. They only get summon monster VII as a spell.
It's absurd power with a very tiny cost, which sound about average for 19th level in Pathfinder.
The problem is gating in an army of solars to destroy fortresses of hell yields more gold than it costs and no reasonable individual would let a small army of solar angels pass up a viable shot at taking out major fortresses in hell. There's also nearly no significant chance of failure due to Solars being that badass.
That said I don't see why a class which is intended to have 6 levels of spell casting get's 9.
Yeah mean like bards? That are you know in the core book?
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That said I don't see why a class which is intended to have 6 levels of spell casting get's 9.
Oh it's dumb. It's just hard for me to be shocked about the design team making a caster class overpowered, especially at that level of play.
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eidolons should have a distinct vulnerability that comes online much earlier than dismisal.
p.e. removing the clause that they can harm creatures protected from protection from X.
if someone is protected from X, it should be the summoners duty to dispel it.
another option would be to be actually harmful to have your eidolon die. like requiring some gold or more time than simply 1 day to resummon and etc.
lastly, i think their summon X ability needs to be nerfed a LOT.
the thing is, that they get what pure conjurers build around (standard action summoning, long duration, etc) for free, and castable at it's highest level an ungodly amount of times.
Maybe limiting it to like summon monster 7 instead of 9 at max (and appropriate scaling) or maybe, to keep the flexible nature of summoners, make the pool something like lvl+cha but each spell lvl consumes 1 charge. so p.e. instead of having at p.e. lvl 12, something like 11 summon monster 6, he now has a pool of 20 summon monster, with summon monster 6 costing 6, summon monster 3 costing 3 and etc
Why? Animal companions don't why should eidolons?
Why? Only a master summoner can have both out which means the eidolon isn't a combat beast. Druids get both at all times, don't see you crying about them.
Summoners are over rated and over cried about on here. I see complaints about the eidolon and the summons yet in most cases you can't use both at the same time. I'd just love to play a druid in the games these people play and show them what a real codzilla is and see if they complain about a meer summoner again.
I would agree, the spell list is not a problem.
While they are still discounted for the summoner, they are still getting them at relatively the same time as full casters. It is only a handfull of spells too, albeit very useful and powerful ones. I would not expect any less from a class that is a conjuration specialist.
The ONLY time their spell list is a significant threat over other classes that are capable of the same is when you use things such as a Mystic Past Life Samsaran to pick of their discounted list for a full caster.
Either they will remove the early access to those spells, or they will make it a full caster and give it to them at the normal levels. Those spells are the point of the class, its silly to deny them access to them.
They are more than likely, in my opinion, going to touch the summon monster SLA uses, and redo how the eidolon works. Mayby drop it entirely and make it a full caster?
None of the features are inherently broken or challenging over what other classes can do.
The Animal Companion is a weaker combatant then the Eidolon. However, a Druid is a much stronger combatant then a Summoner.
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The Animal Companion is a weaker combatant then the Eidolon. However, a Druid is a much stronger combatant then a Summoner.
Undoubtedly true. However, a summoner casting spells is far superior to a druid attacking, because of the same reason a wizard is superior to a fighter. Casting summoner to casting druid is more interesting, but even then the summoner has a lot of aces the druid can't easily match: haste, slow, invisibility and greater, dimension door... and that's just the first few levels.
I was not talking about errors. I was talking about the fact that the d20pfsrd updates it's materials to include new information, faqs, and dev comments.
I personally strongly disagree that a summoner and his pet trump a well played druid with pet. Druids have a ton of spells to truly buff up his AC, summoner has a few. That and the druid is a full 9th caster, the summoner is a semi 9th caster, even by spells per day I prefer the druid.
Most of the OP Eidolon builds I have seen have been breaking more then one rule or another. I stand by the thing takes a rules lawyer to interpret well.
Not saying the summoner is weak, far from it, but bashing the druid is not true to my mind. YMMV