Speculation on the unchained summoner


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Aroden's Spellbane is fantastically strong (to the point that it's arguably too good to be a 9th level spell) but it's also from a splatbook, Inner Sea Magic. The spell is very much subject to a GM saying "nah, not in my game."

(Should it rear its head in a game I'm running, I'm probably changing its duration to 1 round/level - making it an "oh crap" spell rather than something that's up the entire day. That and/or making it cost 10,000 or 25,000 a pop, since it's easily on par with wish for sheer power.)

Re: Explosives Runes - yes, what Anzyr's describing works. Yes, it's also an exercise in rules abuse, and if your GM has a brain he's going to tell you "No, knock that crap off."

And I have no idea how it would go over if you tried an explosive runes suitcase nuke in a PFS game. Heh.

Hmmm... Being a half-elf summoner gives your eidolon one more evolution point every 4 levels, and gives you access to paragon surge, which is pretty good. Which is a bit better than what any other races gets, but you have reach a high level for it to amount to a real edge. Certainly nice, but not "all summoners MUST be half-elves" nice.

Trying to get back on track...

I won't be surprised if the Unchained Summoner has their spell list redone, possibly in exchange for some of their other abilities that interact with the eidolon improved. Again, see the Spiritualist, which is the Occult Adventures 1-6 pet class, and which has only a few "early access" buff spells.

Personally, I've always been bugged by summoners getting barkskin - barkskin's very much a "ties to nature" spell, and summoners are tied to forces that are profoundly unnatural =P


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Zhangar wrote:


Re: Explosives Runes - yes, what Anzyr's describing works. Yes, it's also an exercise in rules abuse, and if your GM has a brain he's going to tell you "No, knock that crap off."

And I have no idea how it would go over if you tried an explosive runes suitcase nuke in a PFS game. Heh.

It's a terrible tactic that depends on lousy strategy and dubious house rules and interpretations to succeed.

1) Anzyr described using Mirror Images *and* summon monster in the same round. Sorry, but no 5th level wizard has anywhere near enough wealth to buy a quicken rod.

2) He assumes the opponent 100% of the time hits a mirror image and doesn't hit the wizard, disrupting the summons spell.

3) He assumes that a random 4 int elemental is automatically 100% literate. In fact, he assumes a random toddler speaking his first words is 100% automatically literate.

4) He assumes that reading a rune is a free action and doesn't trigger an AoO. Nowhere in the rules does it state that this is the case. In fact, if you treat it as reading a scroll, it's a standard action and triggers AoO.

5) Even if reading a rune is a free action, it wouldn't be simultaneous. Free actions still happen in succession. So after reading the first rune, the elemental kills himself and since the rest fo the runes are unpossessed, they get nuked by the blast as well.

6) Even if all goes to plan, the wizard has burned 2 spells plus a lot of prep time to do a lousy 6d6 damage to the enemy. An eidolon can possibly match that damage with a single attack at this level and it has 4 attacks.

And this is supposed to be the super tactic that puts a 5th level wizard over a 5th level summoner???? Simply laughable.


Zhangar wrote:

Re: Explosives Runes - yes, what Anzyr's describing works. Yes, it's also an exercise in rules abuse, and if your GM has a brain he's going to tell you "No, knock that crap off."

And I have no idea how it would go over if you tried an explosive runes suitcase nuke in a PFS game. Heh.

I suggest someone attempt it and tell us the results.

#1 the rules aren't unclear: they work exactly as intended here
#2 The DM would be overstepping his boundaries in PFS if he banned them.

So really, what would the GM say other than, "well played, player".

Scarab Sages

Zhangar wrote:
And I have no idea how it would go over if you tried an explosive runes suitcase nuke in a PFS game. Heh.

No persistent spells in PFS. If you want to use Explosive Runes within a scenario, it is coming from that day's prepared spells.

Fireball deals more damage, is easier to deliver and is more reliable.


Artanthos wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
And I have no idea how it would go over if you tried an explosive runes suitcase nuke in a PFS game. Heh.
No persistent spells in PFS. If you want to use Explosive Runes within a scenario, it is coming from that day's prepared spells.

Heh, that's simple enough. Thank you.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
shroudb wrote:

i remember reading about a pirate summoner whose eidolon was a minature pirate ship that flew beside him.

he had breath weapon (cannons) he had claw attacks (a host of mini-pirates slashing through from the masts and the deck at nearby oppoenents) and etc.

it was a beautiful sight, and something that cannot be recreated if they go with standarizing summoner "packets"

this is just the coolest and most amazing thing! and exactly why I enjoy the summoner class so much. right now my First World summoner's skilldolon is his fey twin brother (summoner himself has fey-blood eldritch heritages), with slight moderation of the "eidolons can't look like specific people" (the DM knows that it's just for flavor purposes). I also grouped one time with a tiefling summoner whose eidolon was his demonic shadow, acting on his subconscious desires. I just love the incredibly original ideas people come up with for the eidolon. it would really be a shame to lose this sheer wonder and imagination that can shine through with the eidolon class feature.

for the other debate going on in the thread, I'm a little confused as to how the "sleep is a level 1 spell" doesn't end the debate about power? sleep immediately banishes the eidolon (unless using 3rd party summoner stuff), and it's a very ubiquitous spell. I mean, it's on the bard, wizard/sorc, witch, and even adept spell lists. witches even get it as a hex that has no HD cap. even a magic-talented rogue (who for some reason chose to take terrible, terrible talents) could cast it 2/day without having to rely on Use Magic Device. is there something I don't understand or am missing?


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xeose4 wrote:
shroudb wrote:

i remember reading about a pirate summoner whose eidolon was a minature pirate ship that flew beside him.

he had breath weapon (cannons) he had claw attacks (a host of mini-pirates slashing through from the masts and the deck at nearby oppoenents) and etc.

it was a beautiful sight, and something that cannot be recreated if they go with standarizing summoner "packets"

this is just the coolest and most amazing thing! and exactly why I enjoy the summoner class so much. right now my First World summoner's skilldolon is his fey twin brother (summoner himself has fey-blood eldritch heritages), with slight moderation of the "eidolons can't look like specific people" (the DM knows that it's just for flavor purposes). I also grouped one time with a tiefling summoner whose eidolon was his demonic shadow, acting on his subconscious desires. I just love the incredibly original ideas people come up with for the eidolon. it would really be a shame to lose this sheer wonder and imagination that can shine through with the eidolon class feature.

for the other debate going on in the thread, I'm a little confused as to how the "sleep is a level 1 spell" doesn't end the debate about power? sleep immediately banishes the eidolon (unless using 3rd party summoner stuff), and it's a very ubiquitous spell. I mean, it's on the bard, wizard/sorc, witch, and even adept spell lists. witches even get it as a hex that has no HD cap. even a magic-talented rogue (who for some reason chose to take terrible, terrible talents) could cast it 2/day without having to rely on Use Magic Device. is there something I don't understand or am missing?

a ton of summoners play halfelf for the amazing alternate favored class bonus, and half elves are immune to sleep ^^


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shroudb wrote:
a ton of summoners play halfelf for the amazing alternate favored class bonus, and half elves are immune to sleep ^^

Some racial powers work a little too well with certain classes. What's odd is that the race existed first, so the designers of the Summoner should have considered that they added an in-built weakness that could be completely ignored by some. It's bad design really.

Although giving an entire race complete immunity to a theme of magic is also pretty bad design.


Celanian wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Re: Explosives Runes - yes, what Anzyr's describing works. Yes, it's also an exercise in rules abuse, and if your GM has a brain he's going to tell you "No, knock that crap off."

And I have no idea how it would go over if you tried an explosive runes suitcase nuke in a PFS game. Heh.

It's a terrible tactic that depends on lousy strategy and dubious house rules and interpretations to succeed.

1) Anzyr described using Mirror Images *and* summon monster in the same round. Sorry, but no 5th level wizard has anywhere near enough wealth to buy a quicken rod.

2) He assumes the opponent 100% of the time hits a mirror image and doesn't hit the wizard, disrupting the summons spell.

3) He assumes that a random 4 int elemental is automatically 100% literate. In fact, he assumes a random toddler speaking his first words is 100% automatically literate.

4) He assumes that reading a rune is a free action and doesn't trigger an AoO. Nowhere in the rules does it state that this is the case. In fact, if you treat it as reading a scroll, it's a standard action and triggers AoO.

5) Even if reading a rune is a free action, it wouldn't be simultaneous. Free actions still happen in succession. So after reading the first rune, the elemental kills himself and since the rest fo the runes are unpossessed, they get nuked by the blast as well.

6) Even if all goes to plan, the wizard has burned 2 spells plus a lot of prep time to do a lousy 6d6 damage to the enemy. An eidolon can possibly match that damage with a single attack at this level and it has 4 attacks.

And this is supposed to be the super tactic that puts a 5th level wizard over a 5th level summoner???? Simply laughable.

1. Reread you missed the context of the reply or are deliberately changing it.

2. It is a very low chance to successfully hit a Wizard with Mirror Image up. Also you are assuming that you are in range, which is an odd assumption.

3. The rules say it is. I'm sorry you don't like that, but an 4 INT air elemental is a character and thus the rules say it literate. Anything else is a houserule.

4. If talking is a free action, I think it's safe to assume reading is. Unless it takes you longer to speak a sentence then to read one. Reading a Scroll is not what takes a standard action. It is activating it, which involves more then merely reading it.

5. There is more then one elemental. They go in separately and each is only carrying 1 Maximized Rune each. 72 Guaranteed damage out of a 3rd level slot from last week seems good to me. Summoner can't do that.

6. It only takes a Standard Action summon time with Acadamae Graduate and a move action to hand out the runes. And the Wizard is almost certainly going to beat the Summoner in Initiative. The Eidolon is not going to match 6d6 *guaranteed* no save damage. It has to deal with annoyances like AC, miss chance and mirror images. Explosive Runes just works.

"Suitcase nukes" explosive runes is vastly superior to having an Eidolon and will scale absurdly well, especially once you can summon creatures with guaranteed to fail greater dispel magic.

Artanthos wrote:

Always assuming all possible spells and class abilities are always available to all wizards is no comparison at all. Choices made define the wizard and what he is capable of.

All possible spells? I assume only the most important ones that every Wizard should have and can easily get, since they are the class that can add more spells to their spells known with a pitiful gold cost. It's not like I ever say "Oh ya well the Wizard has Ooze Pupper prepared." I stick to only the best spells and honestly rarely bring up more then a handful of them. Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest, isn't some rare high opportunity cost spell like Ooze Puppet.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
shroudb wrote:
a ton of summoners play halfelf for the amazing alternate favored class bonus, and half elves are immune to sleep ^^

haha oh gosh I hadn't realized! I saw the comment about that earlier in the thread but thought it was referencing the human +1 spell known to sorcerers favored class for some reason (well people were talking about spells!). I also thought that half-elves just got a +2 save versus sleep or something. that is definitely goofy-strong, because yeah even I struggle with NOT playing a half-elf summoner!


Anzyr wrote:
Celanian wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


Re: Explosives Runes - yes, what Anzyr's describing works. Yes, it's also an exercise in rules abuse, and if your GM has a brain he's going to tell you "No, knock that crap off."

And I have no idea how it would go over if you tried an explosive runes suitcase nuke in a PFS game. Heh.

It's a terrible tactic that depends on lousy strategy and dubious house rules and interpretations to succeed.

1) Anzyr described using Mirror Images *and* summon monster in the same round. Sorry, but no 5th level wizard has anywhere near enough wealth to buy a quicken rod.

2) He assumes the opponent 100% of the time hits a mirror image and doesn't hit the wizard, disrupting the summons spell.

3) He assumes that a random 4 int elemental is automatically 100% literate. In fact, he assumes a random toddler speaking his first words is 100% automatically literate.

4) He assumes that reading a rune is a free action and doesn't trigger an AoO. Nowhere in the rules does it state that this is the case. In fact, if you treat it as reading a scroll, it's a standard action and triggers AoO.

5) Even if reading a rune is a free action, it wouldn't be simultaneous. Free actions still happen in succession. So after reading the first rune, the elemental kills himself and since the rest fo the runes are unpossessed, they get nuked by the blast as well.

6) Even if all goes to plan, the wizard has burned 2 spells plus a lot of prep time to do a lousy 6d6 damage to the enemy. An eidolon can possibly match that damage with a single attack at this level and it has 4 attacks.

And this is supposed to be the super tactic that puts a 5th level wizard over a 5th level summoner???? Simply laughable.

1. Reread you missed the context of the reply or are deliberately changing it.

2. It is a very low chance to successfully hit a Wizard with Mirror Image up. Also you are assuming that you are in range, which is an odd assumption.

3. The rules say it is....

1) You had a mirror image up in the same round as a summon elemental. Your own words.

2) There are 2-5 images for a 5th level wizard. That's anywhere from 17 to 33% chance of a hit. That's not insignificant. And a charging monster has a pretty good range of attack..

3) Your house rules say that the elemental is literate. The specific rule in the bestiary says that it only has spoken language. Don't try and pass off your house rule that toddlers are literate as the actual rules. I'm sorry you don't like it and prefer a world where all toddlers are literate, but rules are rules.

4) You just admitted that you made an assumption. Now support it with an actual rules cite.

5) Multiple elementals with maximized runes as a 5th level wizard?

6) 6d6 is only 21 average damage. That's completely trivial for an eidolon at 5th level. The calculations are earlier in this very thread. And you're assuming the elemental is already summoned when handing out the rune. In an actual fight with a 5 round duration, you have to take a full round casting to get the elementals at all.


If the Spiritualist is a sneak peek at the new Summoner, it's interesting to see that Haste was moved to 3rd level for the Spiritualist.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The spiritualist keeps getting mentioned - can somebody explain what it is? I don't know anything about it and there is a LOT of spiritualist-related stuff that comes up in google searches...

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

It's one of the Occult Adventures playtest classes.


Cheapy wrote:
If the Spiritualist is a sneak peek at the new Summoner, it's interesting to see that Haste was moved to 3rd level for the Spiritualist.

I hope the spiritualist is closer to the direction they are going with the redone summoner (though I'd like the summoner to have more customization options for their pet than the spiritualist does at present). The spiritualist is definitely a better balanced class as far as I can tell by just looking at it than the summoner.


If you say so. The spirit is pretty budget as far as I can see.


Celanian wrote:

1) You had a mirror image up in the same round as a summon elemental. Your own words.

2) There are 2-5 images for a 5th level wizard. That's anywhere from 17 to 33% chance of a hit. That's not insignificant. And a charging monster has a pretty good range of attack..

3) Your house rules say that the elemental is literate. The specific rule in the bestiary says that it only has spoken language. Don't try and pass off your house rule that toddlers are literate as the actual rules. I'm sorry you don't like it and prefer a world where all toddlers are literate, but rules are rules.

4) You just admitted that you made an assumption. Now support it with an actual rules cite.

5) Multiple elementals with maximized runes as a 5th level wizard?

6) 6d6 is only 21 average damage. That's completely trivial for an eidolon at 5th level. The calculations are earlier in this very thread. And you're assuming the elemental is already summoned when handing out the rune. In an actual fight with a 5 round duration, you have to take a full round casting to get the elementals at all.

1) Mirror Image lasts minutes/level. Having it up before a fight is perfectly reasonable most of the time.

2) I wouldn't call a 33% chance to hit significant either.

3) Stop bringing up toddlers. You're the only one bringing them up, and only in an effort to make Anzyr's position look ridiculous. It's damn near the definition of a strawman. There's a huge difference between a 2 year old human reading common and a 30 year old Air Elemental reading Auran.

4) Care to do the same for your assumption that reading the letter "A" on a sheet of paper takes a Standard?

5) I'll leave Anzyr to explain that one, because I don't know either. :P

6) It's 21 damage that is getting through basically all damage mitigators (DR, Energy Resistance, etc.), with a 100% chance to hit. Regarding handing out the Runes, read Anzyr's post again. He's making no such assumptions and is summoning them the round the explosion happens. He's using Acadamae Graduate to summon as a Standard, then handing the Runes as a Move, so the Elemental can Move up and read as a Free.


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Cheapy wrote:
If the Spiritualist is a sneak peek at the new Summoner, it's interesting to see that Haste was moved to 3rd level for the Spiritualist.

Was it? Have to look for a revised playtest document. Because in my document it's still 2nd level.


The spiritualist is a medium BAB, medium casting (1-6) progression class from the Occult Adventures playtest that gets an outsider companion called a phantom. The phantoms have a base template and progression and that get pre-package sets of powers based on the phantom's type, much like an animal companion.

Now, a phantom isn't as strong as an eidolon (not NEARLY as strong offensively), and a lot of the spiritualist abilities involve the phantom buffing the spiritualist in some way.

The spiritualist has a similar spell list to the summoner, except that (a) the spiritualist gets far more divine spells and can heal people that aren't the phantom and (b) most spells a summoner gets "early" a spiritualist gets at the "normal" level - i.e., when a 1 to 9 caster would get it.

Haste, slow, and phantom steed are notable exceptions, all being 2nd level spells for a spiritualist - just like they are for a summoner.

Other spells, like heroism and dimension door, are showing up at the normal spell levels.

Edit: A playtest correction moves haste to 3rd level, but slow and phantom steed are still at 2nd level. I'm guessing they'll be moved to 3rd level during another pass.


Johnico wrote:
Celanian wrote:

1) You had a mirror image up in the same round as a summon elemental. Your own words.

2) There are 2-5 images for a 5th level wizard. That's anywhere from 17 to 33% chance of a hit. That's not insignificant. And a charging monster has a pretty good range of attack..

3) Your house rules say that the elemental is literate. The specific rule in the bestiary says that it only has spoken language. Don't try and pass off your house rule that toddlers are literate as the actual rules. I'm sorry you don't like it and prefer a world where all toddlers are literate, but rules are rules.

4) You just admitted that you made an assumption. Now support it with an actual rules cite.

5) Multiple elementals with maximized runes as a 5th level wizard?

6) 6d6 is only 21 average damage. That's completely trivial for an eidolon at 5th level. The calculations are earlier in this very thread. And you're assuming the elemental is already summoned when handing out the rune. In an actual fight with a 5 round duration, you have to take a full round casting to get the elementals at all.

1) Mirror Image lasts minutes/level. Having it up before a fight is perfectly reasonable most of the time.

2) I wouldn't call a 33% chance to hit significant either.

3) Stop bringing up toddlers. You're the only one bringing them up, and only in an effort to make Anzyr's position look ridiculous. It's damn near the definition of a strawman. There's a huge difference between a 2 year old human reading common and a 30 year old Air Elemental reading Auran.

4) Care to do the same for your assumption that reading the letter "A" on a sheet of paper takes a Standard?

5) I'll leave Anzyr to explain that one, because I don't know either. :P

6) It's 21 damage that is getting through basically all damage mitigators (DR, Energy Resistance, etc.), with a 100% chance to hit. Regarding handing out the Runes, read Anzyr's post again. He's making no such assumptions and is summoning them the round the...

1) With only 3 2nd level spells, having 5 minute spells up all the time is not feasible.

2) 33% chance to hit is very significant. A few of those and your adventuring life ends.

3) Toddlers reading is exactly what Anzyr has said in this thread. And he's completely ignoring the specific text of the bestiary. The fact is that Anzyr has to stick to toddlers reading even though it makes him look completely ridiculous since once it is agreed that not everything gets literacy for free, once you agree that exceptions must be made, then the idea of a 3 int tarrasque or 4 int elemental being literate suddenly doesn't look so plausible anymore.

4) Yeah. In a fight, you have to keep your eye on your enemy at all times. Speaking doesn't take your eye off an enemy. What do you think would happen to a boxer or a fencer if he had a sheet of paper in one hand and looked down at it? He'd get his clock ringed or a sword through his chest when he looks away from the enemy.

5) That was completely bizarre.

6) 21 guaranteed DPR is laughable in the context of declaring a 5th level wizard to be above a 5th level summoner. That's like using a magic missile to say that a 5th level wizard is better than a 5th level barbarian because guaranteed damage even though it's trivial damage compared to what a barbarian outputs.

And the feat he's referring to is specific to Curse of the Crimson Thrones. It's not a general feat that anyone can take.

Scarab Sages

As I stated earlier, arguing the Anzyr is pointless. His rules interpretations are so skewed he may as well be playing a different game.


Artanthos wrote:
As I stated earlier, arguing the Anzyr is pointless. His rules interpretations are so skewed he may as well be playing a different game.

What rules are he interpreting incorrectly?

I"ll give you that he might be assuming too much free time for the wizard, and probably too great an access to spells, but I don't see the rules interpretation problems.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zhangar wrote:

Other spells, like heroism and dimension door, are showing up at the normal spell levels.

Edit: A playtest correction moves haste to 3rd level, but slow and phantom steed are still at 2nd level. I'm guessing they'll be moved to 3rd level during another pass.

So the spiritualist needs to wait until 7th level to cast haste and that makes everything fine?

Dimension door at 10th level would be quite a bit delayed.

It sounds like the spiritualist is a bit different than the Summoner, but if it is using Bard progression that is going to cause problems.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks for clarifying the Spiritualist. After looking at it though, I was kind of surprised. It struck me as really bland compared to the summoner. It seems really ironic, to me, that they'd make "Summoner Unchained" and essentially pull all its teeth out.

Also I'm not sure what budget means - does that mean cheap? Stingy? Hah, because I felt like the spiritualist was pretty sparse with anything interesting, save perhaps the flavor or super specific story purposes that couldn't be served as simply as just playing the new shaman, a summoner with an undead eidolon, or one of the variant archetypes that give a ghostly (familar/companion/mount) instead of the normal creature. I'm basically just not sure how a whole new class is warranted by what feels like "eidolon lite".

Melkiador wrote:
shroudb wrote:
a ton of summoners play halfelf for the amazing alternate favored class bonus, and half elves are immune to sleep ^^

Some racial powers work a little too well with certain classes. What's odd is that the race existed first, so the designers of the Summoner should have considered that they added an in-built weakness that could be completely ignored by some. It's bad design really.

Although giving an entire race complete immunity to a theme of magic is also pretty bad design.

Well I feel like it must have been, at least partially, in response to the fact that half-elves are pretty routinely on the "less favorable" favored-race option for most optimization guides. Still, I think you're definitely right on point - if anything, I think there should be a clause that sleep magic can affect summoners (for whatever reason), regardless of half-elf/elf bonuses, since that at least would be pretty reasonable justification for the extra boost that half-elves get to their eidolon. if it's a matter of flavor, just have a line that says "because of the dual bond, sleep magic actually affects summoners because magic." I mean, if that were the case, answers to summoners would actually be pretty easy, right? Like, assuming that no summoner was auto-immune to sleep, could they be beat pretty easily?

I was also thinking about overall class design, direction, and specific races, and it also occurred to me that the Wildcaller - half-elf archetype - is even more strict about turning the eidolon into a slaughterbeast. I mean it straight-up bans the point-sinks that don't go anywhere. Between that and how much I personally loathe First Worlder (I feel like you give up quite a few significant points in order to gain a specific creature type for flavor purposes alone), I feel like the archetypes should be looked at too. Is there any talk about or motion towards that? Do other people dislike particular archetypes? I've seen synthesist mentioned a lot, but tbh my only experience of one is through the Count Jagare and Radovan books...


RE:xeose4
The master summoner and broodmaster can be a problem simply because they involve so many things to track and have the potential to really slow down encounters, though, that potentially is a problem with other classes as well.

I really prefer players to not have more than one pet around for this reason, unless they are just exceptionally good at keeping track of everything and not bogging down encounters a whole lot (especially compared to other players because I prefer that everyone gets a fairly even amount of "screentime"). Most players, just don't succeed at this in my experience however, and it especially is a problem if you have multiple characters with a pets to deal with.

Classes that function like those archetypes can be awesome for in video games, where the computer handles all the numbers and keeps track of things for you (I love playing such classes in video games) but in tabletop games they can be a real problem.

Scarab Sages

Farastu wrote:

RE:xeose4

The master summoner and broodmaster can be a problem simply because they involve so many things to track and have the potential to really slow down encounters, though, that potentially is a problem with other classes as well.

I really prefer players to not have more than one pet around for this reason, unless they are just exceptionally good at keeping track of everything and not bogging down encounters a whole lot (especially compared to other players because I prefer that everyone gets a fairly even amount of "screentime"). Most players, just don't succeed at this in my experience however, and it especially is a problem if you have multiple characters with a pets to deal with.

Classes that function like those archetypes can be awesome for in video games, where the computer handles all the numbers and keeps track of things for you (I love playing such classes in video games) but in tabletop games they can be a real problem.

I really enjoyed the Mastermind in CoH. I hope the CoT crew manages to finish negotiations with NCSoft for the binary code so they can put a few servers back online.


BretI wrote:


So the spiritualist needs to wait until 7th level to cast haste and that makes everything fine?

If the only thing you can do at level 4 is cast haste you're the most powerful character at the entire table.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Undone wrote:
BretI wrote:


So the spiritualist needs to wait until 7th level to cast haste and that makes everything fine?
If the only thing you can do at level 4 is cast haste you're the most powerful character at the entire table.

No, the martial characters around you are the most powerful, for four rounds. Better finish it fast.


Johnico wrote:


1) Mirror Image lasts minutes/level. Having it up before a fight is perfectly reasonable most of the time.

2) I wouldn't call a 33% chance to hit significant either.

3) Stop bringing up toddlers. You're the only one bringing them up, and only in an effort to make Anzyr's position look ridiculous. It's damn near the definition of a strawman. There's a huge difference between a 2 year old human reading common and a 30 year old Air Elemental reading Auran.

4) Care to do the same for your assumption that reading the letter "A" on a sheet of paper takes a Standard?

5) I'll leave Anzyr to explain that one, because I don't know either. :P

6) It's 21 damage that is getting through basically all damage mitigators (DR, Energy Resistance, etc.), with a 100% chance to hit. Regarding handing out the Runes, read Anzyr's post again. He's making no such assumptions and is summoning them the round the...

Yeah, this is all pretty much all exactly how I'd respond, so I'll just cover point #5 real quick (busy weekend).

5. Maximized Explosive Runes are easy at level 5 thanks to the Book of Harms I mentioned above. It's a solid item that I recommend for any Wizard since for 900 GP it gets you some spells known and the ability to maximize one spell a day. So every day you are not adventuring you can get 1 maximized Explosive Runes to use later, in addition to the 2 normal ones you can get regardless of what specialization you take. So in a week you'll have 7 maximized explosive runes and 14 normal ones. Of course on adventuring days you can use the maximize from Book of Harms to ensure that you have a full 3 earth elementals to work with. Assuming each takes 1 maximized Explosive Rune, that is 108 virtually guaranteed damage. That can be done twice a week using only a single 3rd level slot (that day).


Anzyr wrote:


5. Maximized Explosive Runes are easy at level 5 thanks to the Book of Harms I mentioned above. It's a solid item that I recommend for any Wizard since for 900 GP it gets you some spells known and the ability to maximize one spell a day. So every day you are not adventuring you can get 1 maximized Explosive Runes to use later, in addition to the 2 normal ones you can get regardless of what specialization you take. So in a week you'll have 7 maximized explosive runes and 14 normal ones. Of course on adventuring days you can use the maximize from Book of Harms to ensure that you have a full 3 earth elementals to work with. Assuming each takes 1 maximized Explosive Rune, that is 108 virtually guaranteed damage. That can be done twice a week using only a single 3rd level slot (that day).

In other words you'd be cheating again. Book of Harms is only with an evocation spell. Explosive Runes is an abjuration spell and summon monster is a conjuration spell.


Celanian wrote:
Anzyr wrote:


5. Maximized Explosive Runes are easy at level 5 thanks to the Book of Harms I mentioned above. It's a solid item that I recommend for any Wizard since for 900 GP it gets you some spells known and the ability to maximize one spell a day. So every day you are not adventuring you can get 1 maximized Explosive Runes to use later, in addition to the 2 normal ones you can get regardless of what specialization you take. So in a week you'll have 7 maximized explosive runes and 14 normal ones. Of course on adventuring days you can use the maximize from Book of Harms to ensure that you have a full 3 earth elementals to work with. Assuming each takes 1 maximized Explosive Rune, that is 108 virtually guaranteed damage. That can be done twice a week using only a single 3rd level slot (that day).
In other words you'd be cheating again. Book of Harms is only with an evocation spell. Explosive Runes is an abjuration spell.

This is correct. Still a very good item though. Still 63~ average damage that is virtually guaranteed is much better then anything the Summoner can pull off.


Anzyr wrote:
Celanian wrote:
Anzyr wrote:


5. Maximized Explosive Runes are easy at level 5 thanks to the Book of Harms I mentioned above. It's a solid item that I recommend for any Wizard since for 900 GP it gets you some spells known and the ability to maximize one spell a day. So every day you are not adventuring you can get 1 maximized Explosive Runes to use later, in addition to the 2 normal ones you can get regardless of what specialization you take. So in a week you'll have 7 maximized explosive runes and 14 normal ones. Of course on adventuring days you can use the maximize from Book of Harms to ensure that you have a full 3 earth elementals to work with. Assuming each takes 1 maximized Explosive Rune, that is 108 virtually guaranteed damage. That can be done twice a week using only a single 3rd level slot (that day).
In other words you'd be cheating again. Book of Harms is only with an evocation spell. Explosive Runes is an abjuration spell.
This is correct. Still a very good item though. Still 63~ average damage that is virtually guaranteed is much better then anything the Summoner can pull off.

Asserting that it's 63 guaranteed damage doesn't make it so. It's only that much damage using your personal house rules and bizarre interpretations.


No house rules or bizarre interpretations, just the RAW of explosive runes.


Let's relist the questionable assumptions you put down again:

1) You are assuming minute per level spells are up all the time, or a quicken rod

2) You are assuming 100% of all incoming attacks hit a mirror image instead of you

3) You ignore the wording of the bestiary and assume all 4 int elementals are literate using a bizarre interpretation of the rules that would make all toddlers literate

4) You assume that reading an explosive rune is a free action despite multiple requests for a rules cite that you haven't responded to

5) You assume the wizard is allowed to pick an adventure path specific feat since otherwise this plan would be stopped dead in its tracks

6) You assume that you either automatically get 3 elementals from a single casting of summon monster or you're cheating by using the book of harms to maximize summon monster.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Celanian wrote:


4) You assume that reading an explosive rune is a free action despite multiple requests for a rules cite that you haven't responded to

I'd also like to note that you have yet to make a rules cite for your assumption that reading an explosive rune isn't a free action, either.


Minute per spells should always be up before entering an area where combat is likely.

A 33% at best chance to hit is extraordinarly low. It hitting is by definition, not likely.

The wording in the Bestiary says that they know a language. The core rules say that all characters with 3+ INT that know a language are literate. This is RAW.

Reading is not defined in the rules, however reading is an activity which

"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below."

Note that the actions are not exhaustive and one of them is talking. If talking does not "take any time at all" then certainly reading a single word also does.

Unless you want to tell me reading a single word takes more time then moving 30 ft. or swinging a sword.

I assume some Wizards can select that yes and that others may have to wait.

You will get 2+ Elementals 66% of the time.


1) There will often be fights when you're not expecting combat. And if you cast it everytime you enter an area you're expecting combat, you'll run out of spells very quickly since some of those areas won't actually lead to combat.

2) 33% is not extraordinarily low. It is 1 in 3. If you depend on all 1 in 3 chances not hitting you, you'd never even make it to 5th level.

3) The Bestiary specifically states "spoken" language. You are merely using your own house rules to give more than that.

4) You still haven't given a rules cite. You are merely giving me your interpretation. My interpretation is that in combat, you have to keep your eye on your opponent at all times. A boxer or fencer who looks away from his opponent at a sheet of paper in his hands will most likely get crushed immediately in a boxing or fencing match.

For someone who keeps claiming RAW, I'd like to see the actual RAW that allows this rather than your interpretation.

5) This blows your tactic completely dead by itself. If it's something that only a small subset of wizards can do, it's not applicable to a general wiz vs summoner comparison. Thanks for conceding this.

6) 2+ elementals 66% of the time isn't 63 guaranteed damage like you're claiming.

I have to add that I'm very amused that you're trying to use common sense as an argument for reading as a free action, and you also ignore common sense in proclaiming that all toddlers on Golarion are literate. Heh.


No the bestiary does not specify that it is only spoken. To quote

"The languages most commonly spoken by the creature are listed here. For unusual creatures, you can swap out the languages known for other choices as needed. A creature with a higher-than-normal Intelligence score receives the appropriate number of bonus languages."

It does not say that they only know a spoken language like Awaken Animal.

If you interpretation of reading is correct, it would be impossible to drive while reading road signs. The actual RAW is comparison here. Speaking takes "no time at all". Thus reading being more similar to talking then moving or attacking in terms of time usage makes the most sense in that category.

The tactic can be used by anyone. It will just take some longer then others.

The damage is guaranteed provided you have 3 elementals.


Your quote specifically says "spoken".

Driving isn't combat. My interpretation says that if you attempt to read in combat, the other fighter gets an AoO on you. Your interpretation says that a boxer can read a sheet of paper in one hand while the other boxer is attempting to punch him out with no consequences whatsoever.

If it takes longer before a wizard can do this, then it is no longer valid in a 5th level comparison. Thanks for conceding and destroying your own argument.

Saying the damage is guaranteed provided you have 3 elementals is like saying a barbarian with a scythe is guaranteed 100+ damage if he gets a critical hit. The statement may be technically true, but there's a big massive conditional on it.

It's funny that earlier you were making the comment that 33% was extraordinarily low chance, but now you're acting as if it were almost guaranteed and assuming the 33% chance in your calculations. Heh

Scarab Sages

If I wanted to hear a debate on child literacy, I'd go work for OFSTED.

But if it helps to put the point to bed, once and for all;

The Core rules state literacy in spoken languages for creatures with Int 3+.
The Bestiary advises which languages are spoken.
These are not mutually contradictory statements.

"Bears are omnivorous."

"Bears eat the following kinds of plant matter."

"AHA! Bears are vegetarian! They only eat plants! Look! Look! It says they eat these kinds of plants! That's all they eat! They don't eat meat! So there!"

Scarab Sages

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And on 'reading is a standard action':

If that were the case, it would make most runes, glyphs and symbol spells obsolete.
All one has to do, is stay active, while raiding an enemy territory, and you'll never have a standard action spare, to need to worry about such hazards.

Wizard: (pulls cover from ancient stone pillar) "Behold your DOOM! This site is protected by The Dread Sign of Azhogomemnon! It will drain your SOUL! Bwahahaha!"

Big Dumb Fighter: "Sorry, cant stop. Too long, didn't read. Take that"
(decapitates wizard)

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:
BretI wrote:


So the spiritualist needs to wait until 7th level to cast haste and that makes everything fine?
If the only thing you can do at level 4 is cast haste you're the most powerful character at the entire table.

My wizard was casting Haste just fine at 4th level.

All he had to do was roll a 2+ to use the scrolls he purchased.


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Artanthos wrote:
Undone wrote:
BretI wrote:


So the spiritualist needs to wait until 7th level to cast haste and that makes everything fine?
If the only thing you can do at level 4 is cast haste you're the most powerful character at the entire table.

My wizard was casting Haste just fine at 4th level.

All he had to do was roll a 2+ to use the scrolls he purchased.

How many 375 gold (or 200 if bought from one of those oh so common Summoner scroll merchants) per use Hastes did he buy with his 6000 gold level 4 wealth by level?


Snorter wrote:

And on 'reading is a standard action':

If that were the case, it would make most runes, glyphs and symbol spells obsolete.
All one has to do, is stay active, while raiding an enemy territory, and you'll never have a standard action spare, to need to worry about such hazards.

Wizard: (pulls cover from ancient stone pillar) "Behold your DOOM! This site is protected by The Dread Sign of Azhogomemnon! It will drain your SOUL! Bwahahaha!"

Big Dumb Fighter: "Sorry, cant stop. Too long, didn't read. Take that"
(decapitates wizard)

Show me how a boxer is supposed to read a sheet of paper in his hand in a boxing match without the other boxer smacking him.

Ali: "Sorry Frazier, I need to read a text from my BFF for a moment"

Frazier: Punches out Ali when he looks down at his Ipad.

As for the literacy issue, do you believe that all toddlers are literate? Because that would be exactly what your interpretation states. I don't care if you don't want to hear the debate on child literacy. If you are advocating a literal interpretation of the CRB and ignoring other statements elsewhere, that is exactly what you have to believe.

After all, a toddler is a creature with 3+ int who has a spoken language.

Scarab Sages

chaoseffect wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Undone wrote:
BretI wrote:


So the spiritualist needs to wait until 7th level to cast haste and that makes everything fine?
If the only thing you can do at level 4 is cast haste you're the most powerful character at the entire table.

My wizard was casting Haste just fine at 4th level.

All he had to do was roll a 2+ to use the scrolls he purchased.

How many 375 gold (or 200 if bought from one of those oh so common Summoner scroll merchants) per use Hastes did he buy with his 6000 gold level 4 wealth by level?

1. He had two, more than sufficient for the City of Golden Death.

2. They were wizard scrolls (PFS always assumes wizard/cleric.)
3. TI have no clue if his WBL was exactly 6000. There tends to be some variation when you play the game instead of just theorycrafting.

Scarab Sages

I could read when I was three.
But it's besides the point.

The summoned creatures aren't children, they're adult creatures, who could easily be decades, even centuries, old.

A Small, 2HD elemental isn't a 'baby elemental'; it doesn't arrive wearing a diaper, and suckling a pacifier, and cling to the summoner's leg, wanting to be read a bedtime story.


Celanian wrote:
Snorter wrote:

And on 'reading is a standard action':

If that were the case, it would make most runes, glyphs and symbol spells obsolete.
All one has to do, is stay active, while raiding an enemy territory, and you'll never have a standard action spare, to need to worry about such hazards.

Wizard: (pulls cover from ancient stone pillar) "Behold your DOOM! This site is protected by The Dread Sign of Azhogomemnon! It will drain your SOUL! Bwahahaha!"

Big Dumb Fighter: "Sorry, cant stop. Too long, didn't read. Take that"
(decapitates wizard)

Show me how a boxer is supposed to read a sheet of paper in his hand in a boxing match without the other boxer smacking him.

Ali: "Sorry Frazier, I need to read a text from my BFF for a moment"

Frazier: Punches out Ali when he looks down at his Ipad.

I keep coming back to this. You ask for rules cites and then never give one yourself. So, tell me where exactly the action required to read something is described? I don't care about your explanation for your assumption. Give a page number.


Snorter wrote:

I could read when I was three.

But it's besides the point.

The summoned creatures aren't children, they're adult creatures, who could easily be decades, even centuries, old.

A Small, 2HD elemental isn't a 'baby elemental'; it doesn't arrive wearing a diaper, and suckling a pacifier, and cling to the summoner's leg, wanting to be read a bedtime story.

IOW, you agree that not all 3+ int creatures with a spoken language get literacy for free. So a literal reading of the CRB is wrong. It would've saved a lot of time if you acknowledged that from the beginning.


Johnico wrote:
Celanian wrote:
Snorter wrote:

And on 'reading is a standard action':

If that were the case, it would make most runes, glyphs and symbol spells obsolete.
All one has to do, is stay active, while raiding an enemy territory, and you'll never have a standard action spare, to need to worry about such hazards.

Wizard: (pulls cover from ancient stone pillar) "Behold your DOOM! This site is protected by The Dread Sign of Azhogomemnon! It will drain your SOUL! Bwahahaha!"

Big Dumb Fighter: "Sorry, cant stop. Too long, didn't read. Take that"
(decapitates wizard)

Show me how a boxer is supposed to read a sheet of paper in his hand in a boxing match without the other boxer smacking him.

Ali: "Sorry Frazier, I need to read a text from my BFF for a moment"

Frazier: Punches out Ali when he looks down at his Ipad.

I keep coming back to this. You ask for rules cites and then never give one yourself. So, tell me where exactly the action required to read something is described? I don't care about your explanation for your assumption. Give a page number.

It's up to the advocate of the tactic to prove it's legal. I'm waiting for the rules cite. Please give a page number and title.

Scarab Sages

Celanian wrote:
IOW, you agree that not all 3+ int creatures with a spoken language get literacy for free. So a literal reading of the CRB is wrong. It would've saved a lot of time if you acknowledged that from the beginning.

Where do you get that, from what I wrote?

'I could read when I was three.'

Nope, nothing there. Quite the opposite, in fact.

'The summoned creatures aren't children, they're adult creatures, who could easily be decades, even centuries, old.'

Nope, still nothing. Just refuting your increasingly desperate attempts to bring children into the argument.

'A Small, 2HD elemental isn't a 'baby elemental'; it doesn't arrive wearing a diaper, and suckling a pacifier, and cling to the summoner's leg, wanting to be read a bedtime story.'

And...still nothing. Humour, used to deflate the tension.
Obviously wasted.

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