Speculation on the unchained summoner


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Trogdar wrote:

That makes no sense.... Energy attacks are terrible even now. The chances that your going to actually get any of that damage through energy resists is negligible. I don't think many people think that getting a d6 energy attack is ever worth the evolution points.

I think scaling values on attacks makes some sense, but your other proposed changes suffer from similar theorycraft errors that make it seem like your only playing at low levels.

It is, in the long run, just an okay evolution. A fixed damage type means some fights invalidate the point investment. However! This is a fantastic evolution for Evolution Surge. This lets you slap on whatever damage type you need right then and there without making the commitment.

The ES spells are arguably as good as Paragon Surge. Easily accessible, powerful, and incredibly versatile.


Can you use ES to do size is increases? That would make buying stat ups cheaper and make the eidolon more flexible.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Trogdar wrote:
I think that evolution points should really focus on filling out the theme of the eidolon and most of the offensive stuff should be baked into the creature progression.

Agreed, 100%


Artanthos wrote:
Undone wrote:
Ediolons may never gain more attacks per turn than maxlisted on the table (Identical to current but for all attacks) including haste and manufactured weapons.
Mixing manufactured weapons with natural weapons looks impressive on paper but decreases DPR. You've just cut all your (huge) strength bonuses to damage in half and split your WBL among multiple weapons + an AMF. On top of already splitting WBL between the summoner and eidolon.

Except at high levels where the pet wields a few dozen guns.

Artanthos wrote:
Adding specific exclusions to Haste? If Haste is broken on the eidolon what do we call it when applied to the pouncing barbarian?

It's not broken. I just see no reason to allow a PET to come even closer to actual CLASSES.

Artanthos wrote:
Quote:
Remove the improved natural armor evolution.
Yes; we would not want a non-offensive evolution to be taken by accident.

I'd rather remove the scaling natural armor progression but I'm being realistic.

Artanthos wrote:
Quote:
The summoner must chose at creation the pet or the SLA.
Because the summoner is already using both simultaneously?

Welcome to the ability to have free options. When the pet dies he just magically superior summons an army. So killing the pet actually POWERS UP THE SUMMONER. You don't see a problem with that?

Contributor

Anzyr wrote:
There is no such thing as Immune to Magic.

Clearly your GM never uses golems.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
There is no such thing as Immune to Magic.
Clearly your GM never uses golems.

Which are still not immune to create pit.

The closest thing to immune to magic is a magic bane bandersnatch.


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Alexander Augunas wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
There is no such thing as Immune to Magic.
Clearly your GM never uses golems.

Clearly you don't realize how bad Golems are against Conjuration Magic and Summons.


Ssalarn wrote:


If you actually check YouTube, there's a video of the PaizoCon 2014 banquet where Jason Buhlman calls the Summoner something along the lines of "the most crazy broken OP thing you can have at the table".

The argument between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is basically beside the point; you're talking about the degree to which a class can break the game, not whether or not it can. Frankly though, I'm inclined to agree that Gate and Summon Monster IX as SLAs put the Summoner at Tier 1 because he really is just 1 standard action away from whatever spell he needs, and he has far more castings of those spells than any other class. A wizard can, in theory, prepare a spell for any situation if he knows what's coming. The Summoner can, without any foreknowledge, have the exact tool for the job at that exact moment he needs it.

The real issues of course are matters of degree. Tier doesn't measure power, it measures versatility. The Summoner has the versatility of a Tier 1 or Tier 2 class, but he also simultaneously has the specialized power of a Tier 4 class. Fighters hit harder than anyone else. This is supposedly the counterbalance to their lack of any other option. But there are many levels where the eidolon actually hits harder, with better AC, comparative saves, and more skill points... An eidolon can replace a Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, or other Tier 5 to Tier 3 class in a way that no animal companion...

Yeah, I've seen two summoners in action. Both were synthesists, which is admittedly a weird archetype. I LOVE the concept but, even compared to some very well optimized characters of other classes that I've seen in play, it was just crazily powerful.

The first synthesist I saw in action was walking all over encounters that would have a very high chance of killing the rest of the party. That's not how the game is supposed to play.

I allowed one more of these guys, and even though it wasn't as well optimized as the previous one, it still was walking all over things that the majority of other characters would have had a hell of a time with.

I think it is mostly the evolution system that needs to be fixed. I LOVE the customization it allows for, but the results can be incredibly overpowered. Plus the class is confusing for a lot of people to begin with, which means a headache trying to make sure that players aren't building their characters totally wrong. I really hope the customization stays, but is improved drastically.


Farastu wrote:


Yeah, I've seen two summoners in action. Both were synthesists, which is admittedly a weird archetype. I LOVE the concept but, even compared to some very well optimized characters of other classes that I've seen in play, it was just crazily powerful.

The first synthesist I saw in action was walking all over encounters that would have a very high chance of killing the rest of the party. That's not how the game is supposed to play.

I allowed one more of these guys, though made a point to gimp it some, and, it still was walking all over things that the majority of other...

At above average to high levels of optimization, the full casters are going to make Summoners look like a joke. Forget standard action solution to every problem (though full casters can do that to), they have swift action no save, just lose abilities. On top of knowing the future, having more self buffs then they probably need, brought a permanent army, can summon an army just as well as the summoner (though admittedly it won't last as long), and have means of battlefield control the summoner can only cry for lack of.

At those levels of optimization, it's not even a contest. The problem most people have with Summoner is that it forces low to average system mastery players into high system mastery options. Conjuration has been the strongest school in the game by a landslide since 3.5, and Summoner forces players to use it.


Anzyr wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
There is no such thing as Immune to Magic.
Clearly your GM never uses golems.
Clearly you don't realize how bad Golems are against Conjuration Magic and Summons.

I stand by my magic bane bandersnaches.


I did throw the first summoner against mages (wizards and sorcerers I mean in particular), and higher level ones with minions at that... when the character makes their saves almost every time you throw something targeting the summoner's weak points... well, there's just no hope of challenging them. The player went out of their way to build their character in such a way that their saves were ridiculous though and I should have just never allowed it. I think that making encounters just to challenge the one player whom built a way tougher character than anyone else gets stupid anyhow as well.


Undone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
There is no such thing as Immune to Magic.
Clearly your GM never uses golems.
Clearly you don't realize how bad Golems are against Conjuration Magic and Summons.
I stand by my magic bane bandersnaches.

I find their lack of flight quite fatal to their ability to be a real threat, though they are step up from the much maligned (deservedly) Tarrasque.


Farastu wrote:

I did throw the first summoner against mages (wizards and sorcerers I mean in particular), and higher level ones with minions at that... when the character makes their saves almost every time you throw something targeting the summoner's weak points... well, there's just no hope of challenging them. The player went out of their way to build their character in such a way that their saves were ridiculous though and I should have just never allowed it. I think that making encounters just to challenge the one player whom built a way tougher character than anyone else gets stupid anyhow as well.

Saves are something you worry about in average level optimization. When I said "No save, just lose" I was being literal.


Like in antimagic field? I've used it, and sure, it's effective, but, it also means I'm utterly gimping all the magic-users in the party. That's fine now and then, forces the players to get smart and figure out a way to deal with something when they can't use so many of their fancy powers against it... however:
A little part of me (and one which I won't actually take advice from) says, well, I should just do that anyways, just throw them in antimagic zones, and the player will decide it's really boring to play their character and switch to something else.

More likely though, a player will get tired of so many encounters being based around making their character utterly ineffective and not play (and I couldn't blame them really).

That's another reason why, not all encounters came stocked with wizards spamming dismissal (though I did try to use it now and then and never succeeded with the spell).

I'm going on a tangent here, but, that there's a much more limited assortment of ways to challenge this class, than there are others, really does show it needs to be redone. I really am very curious about how it will be redone and looking forward to seeing the results.


High level casters are immune to anti-magic fields (well Wizards/Sorcerers are and anyone who can hack their list, ie. Shamans).

What I mean by "No save, just lose" is stuff like Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest. There is no save, you just get mind controlled. Or Maze, where you get sent off to wait and if you don't have plane shift to return directly to a probably fatal welcome arranged just for you.


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Quote:
a comment far earlier in the thread about summoner/barb nerfs being the loss of pounce

such suggestions would go straight into the trash for me. MORE things should get pounce. being mobile AND not sucking at damage is a good thing people. fighters should get it, rogues should get it, monks should get it, swashbucklers, slayers, investigators, horseless cavaliers, even the little old lady down the freaking street should get pounce--it brings them a sliver of a step closer to the kind of absolute CRAP casters can pull by comparison. mobility in combat SHOULD be a thing, not being a tree with a sword.

"i see you still cant move and swing your sword more than once--i'll be enjoying my vacation in my own personal heaven with gated in nymphs. you just... keep trying, little guy."


Again... nothing in this book is nerfs. You can always use the "Chained" Barbarian or Summoner if the Unchained version is not to your liking. This book can only bring buffs, not nerfs, at least that was my understanding. If the book can bring nerfs, then excuse me a moment while I gather up some torches and pitchforks.


9 level casters might be better than summoners at the very high levels of play, but summoners are better at levels 1-12 or so where most Pathfinder is actually played.


Anzyr wrote:
Again... nothing in this book is nerfs. You can always use the "Chained" Barbarian or Summoner if the Unchained version is not to your liking. This book can only bring buffs, not nerfs, at least that was my understanding. If the book can bring nerfs, then excuse me a moment while I gather up some torches and pitchforks.

oh certainly. i'm just raising the point that who in their right mind would pass up one of the only Good Things(tm) for martials. even suggesting it's removal is just silly.

i mean, i'm all for non cookie-cutter builds, but when everything else pales in comparison in basic SCOPE, why would you subject yourself to something else?


Celanian wrote:
9 level casters might be better than summoners at the very high levels of play, but summoners are better at levels 1-12 or so where most Pathfinder is actually played.

No, full casters are better there to except at the earliest levels. Once 3rd level spells come online for full casters, the balance tilts dramatically in their favor and by 5th level spells, the gap is probably insurmountable.

It's not really an issue of high level versus low level play. It's an issue of high optimization versus low optimization play. In high optimization play, the summoner is nothing but a weaker caster. In low optimization the Summoner may very well be stronger. The reason for this is that the Summoner class forces people with low optimization play into higher levels of optimization.


Anzyr wrote:
Celanian wrote:
9 level casters might be better than summoners at the very high levels of play, but summoners are better at levels 1-12 or so where most Pathfinder is actually played.

No, full casters are better there to except at the earliest levels. Once 3rd level spells come online for full casters, the balance tilts dramatically in their favor and by 5th level spells, the gap is probably insurmountable.

It's not really an issue of high level versus low level play. It's an issue of high optimization versus low optimization play. In high optimization play, the summoner is nothing but a weaker caster. In low optimization the Summoner may very well be stronger. The reason for this is that the Summoner class forces people with low optimization play into higher levels of optimization.

I'm very skeptical about this. How is a level 5 wizard or cleric going to end encounters nearly as well as a 5th level summoner?


"I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. And the morning before that. And the morning before that. And the..."

"Did you know that Command Undead (the spell) lasts for days per level? My completely free undead army that's over 100 HD strong knows that."

For starters.


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Anzyr wrote:

"I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. And the morning before that. And the morning before that. And the..."

"Did you know that Command Undead (the spell) lasts for days per level? My completely free undead army that's over 100 HD strong knows that."

For starters.

I don't think it's very easy to use explosive runes in an actual combat. And command undead has some very large logistical issues that you seem to be glossing over.


It is very easy to use Explosive Runes in actual combat. And I'm very curious what those "logistical issues" are. Remember to cast Command Undead every 3 days or so (you are extending it so you get 10 days at level 5 right)?

Sorry Summoner just isn't going to win this fight.


you beat me to the issues with both of those Celanian... having an army of undead is very, situational. For NPC villains, having them have an army of undead is just a classic trope, but, players more often than not in my experience tend to make characters that are anti-undead (often passionately anti-undead).

Plus, I don't like resorting to casters that have access to a certain very narrow list of spells all the time (and I don't), variety is the spice of life. But, this leads into another can of worms.

My way of dealing with this for now, is just to not allow things that require such a narrow number of things be thrown against them to be a sufficient challenge. Since most of my players have gotten really worn out on worrying too much about optimizing builds at this point, and will just complain if I let something significantly more powerful than they in the group now, it suits them just fine that I've started doing this.


How are you going to get that ogre barbarian to read some runes when he's trying to bash in your face? Especially since he's probably illiterate.

As for the undead army, where are you going to find enough worthwhile undead to follow you around? Skeletons and zombies at this level are pretty worthless even if you have a lot of them.


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hell, you can get an explosive runes going by putting it on a post-it note and using mage hand to show it to people. or having an unseen servant carry them around, or sticking them to your undead minions' foreheads. or handing them to conjured creatures (communal mount gets you loads of carriers for cheap).

scrawl them in chalk as you make your way out of a dungeon to harry anything that might give chase. combine with sepia snake sigil for other hilarious antics.

also for undead animation: with necromancy focus stuff, you can get a few 7-8 HD things fairly easily with just animate dead. bloody skeleton gorillas are nice for the early game (and then moving up to hill giants), or so i hear.

command undead is just gravy.


1. You don't have the Barbarian read them. You never even get near them. You have a bunch of Elemental (small) read them right next to the enemy you want dead (one at a time obviously). Of course, Bloody Skeletons make for great deliverers of Explosive Runes. Though you'll have to get a party member to read those once it's in range.

2. The fun thing about being an adventurer is that you get to kill a lot of CR appropriate things. Oh and animals make great skeletons at low levels and there's usually plenty of those around and no one cares as much if you kill them.

Edit: Ninja'd by AndIMustMask. Quite handily to.


At 5th level, you're taking a full round action to summon the elemental. Then you're giving the sheet to it and then having it move next to the enemy and then read. That's at least 2 full rounds or possibly 3 to get off a 6d6 attack. In the meantime, the ogre probably has hit you a couple of times and bashed your brain in. That's assuming you have the scroll written in whatever language elementals use and that the elemental you summon is literate.

Skeletons can't read, so they can't be used as a delivery system.

How are you animating any skeletons at 5th level? Animate dead is a 4th level wiz/sorc spell. At 5th level, you're going to have to find the skeletons on your own.


Anzyr wrote:
Again... nothing in this book is nerfs. You can always use the "Chained" Barbarian or Summoner if the Unchained version is not to your liking. This book can only bring buffs, not nerfs, at least that was my understanding. If the book can bring nerfs, then excuse me a moment while I gather up some torches and pitchforks.

This may not be the caase in PFS.


Celanian wrote:

At 5th level, you're taking a full round action to summon the elemental. Then you're giving the sheet to it and then having it move next to the enemy and then read. That's at least 2 full rounds or possibly 3 to get off a 6d6 attack. In the meantime, the ogre probably has hit you a couple of times and bashed your brain in. That's assuming you have the scroll written in whatever language elementals use and that the elemental you summon is literate.

Skeletons can't read, so they can't be used as a delivery system.

How are you animating any skeletons at 5th level? Animate dead is a 4th level wiz/sorc spell. At 5th level, you're going to have to find the skeletons on your own.

The skeleton can be used as a delivery system (ie getting the runes there) and if you read my post, you would see I even spell out that a party member has to read it since you yourself cannot. And the damage is actually 6d6 *per* rune. And lets not get into the truly scary tactic of applying metamagic, say with the 900 GP Book of Harms. And you'd be surprised how those pile up. Don't forget that if the deliverer is within reading range of the creature, there is no save and it's force damage making it very very effective.

Clerics get Animate Dead at 5th level. They also get Command Undead (the spell) with the Inevitable Domain. The first tactic was for Wizard/Sorcerers, the second was for Clerics. See I covered both your requested classes that way.


The description of explosive runes says that the reader has to be next to the rune to be "close enough to read them". Good luck getting a suicidal PC to kamikaze himself with this tactic.

Skeletons and zombies simply aren't threatening at level 5. A single lantern archon summons can wipe out the whole horde with no risk to itself.


I think you keep missing the Elemental (smalls) in this discussion. Yes if you use a PC they will take some damage. Luckily, you can patch them cheaply with Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing, provided they don't go overboard. And if you use the maximized runes, you know exactly how much damage will be dealt. Of course at higher levels this tactic becomes even more effective thanks to guaranteed to fail greater dispel magics.

And a Summoner could blow his entire Summon Monster SLA and never ever come even close to downing that many HD of undead. Especially since the bloody skeletons are just going to reform anyway.


Anzyr wrote:

I think you keep missing the Elemental (smalls) in this discussion. Yes if you use a PC they will take some damage. Luckily, you can patch them cheaply with Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing, provided they don't go overboard. And if you use the maximized runes, you know exactly how much damage will be dealt. Of course at higher levels this tactic becomes even more effective thanks to guaranteed to fail greater dispel magics.

And a Summoner could blow his entire Summon Monster SLA and never ever come even close to downing that many HD of undead. Especially since the bloody skeletons are just going to reform anyway.

just a thing: if they're killed in a consecrated area (or by positive energy iirc) they're perma-dead, so the lantern archon's holy beam might do the trick in that sense.

it's still a lot of HD to wade through


Again, how are you getting the small elementals into the battle? It takes a full round casting to summon them in the first place and you need time to hand them the sheets and the sheets have to be written in whatever language they use and with 4 int, they're bloody not likely to be literate. The elementals don't last long so you can't have them pre-summoned for most fights.

As for the PC, it doesn't seem like an efficient tactic to take 6d6 damage just to inflict 6d6 damage.

A 5th level summoner's lantern archons last 5 minutes or 50 rounds. That's 100 attacks that do 1d6 damage that's not stopped by any DR. You can kill quite a few skeletons with a single summons and the average summoner at that level will probably have at least 7-8 of them. Or maybe a few air elementals whirlwinding them.


4 Int is literate. Sure the elementals take a turn to summon. And? Reading is a free action, so the Elementals can take the explosive runes, move and detonate all in a single round (the same round they are summoned, provided you have the runes on hand). Yes, the sheets have to be written in their language, but your a Wizard for a magic's sake. It is an efficient tactic for the PC because it reduces the fight time significantly. Damage is cheap to remove.

And again, killing the skeletons does very little to help. Bloody skeletons are very specific about how they don't reform. The archon's light ray isn't positive energy, so the Summoner is again out of luck. It'll take many rounds for the Archon to kill a single bloody skeleton since they have fast healing 1 and the average damage it deals is 3.5 and Bloody Skeletons get a CHA bump that gives them even more hit points, on top of the fact that they were created in the area of a Desecrate with an altar dedicated to evil deity. So even if you are master summoner and blow lets say 9 Summons, the undead horde is going to kill you long before you have to worry about the skeletons that are killed coming back to life.

I'm sorry but the Summoner is not winning this. And keep in mind, this just gets worse and worse for the summoner every level after this.


Anzyr wrote:


I'm sorry but the Summoner is not winning this. And keep in mind, this just gets worse and worse for the summoner every level after this.

The summoner doesn't have to win. It is enough that he destroys other player's fun.

Others have said it but the easiest way to make them less of a problem would be to disallow summoning multiples lower level summons for the SLA and to give the eidolon some fixed forms with some utility/fluff evolutions to customize them.
Cherry picking evolution combos of broken-ness is the problem.


I think you're making a lot of dubious assumptions.

Where does it say that int 4 elementals are literate? Even if they were, you just blew your first round doing essentially nothing. The enemy clobbers you now. Even if the elemental gets off the attack, it will be a single rune. Nowhere does it say that someone can read multiple runes at the same time. It's like reading a post on the message board. You read one sentence at a time. As soon as one is read, it explodes and destroys the rest unless they're written on adamantine. And where does it say that reading a rune is a free action?

For the skeletons, it takes 2 hits to put one down on average. 9 archons out at once can get 18 attacks which is 11 hits on average per round. That's 5.5 dead skeletons every round for 50 rounds. After the skeletons are gone, the invisible summoner sics his eidolon on the cleric which should be a very easy fight. Or he could skip this step and have all his lanterns focus fire on the cleric to begin with. No 5th level cleric can survive volley fire for long from massed lanterns.

Sorry, the wiz/cleric is not winning this.


Umbranus wrote:
Anzyr wrote:


I'm sorry but the Summoner is not winning this. And keep in mind, this just gets worse and worse for the summoner every level after this.

The summoner doesn't have to win. It is enough that he destroys other player's fun.

Others have said it but the easiest way to make them less of a problem would be to disallow summoning multiples lower level summons for the SLA and to give the eidolon some fixed forms with some utility/fluff evolutions to customize them.
Cherry picking evolution combos of broken-ness is the problem.

Ok, see here's the thing though. The Druid can destroy peoples fun. Easily. Has been since 3.5. The other Full casters? They can also wreck peoples fun. Not quite as much at low level, but even then. And these classes. So, it seems silly to people like me to nerf the Summoner before touching any of the classes that are vastly superior to it. Again the only reason the Summoner looks OP is because it literally shoves the best school of magic and some of the best spells down the player's throat.


Celanian wrote:

I think you're making a lot of dubious assumptions.

Where does it say that int 4 elementals are literate? Even if they were, you just blew your first round doing essentially nothing. The enemy clobbers you now. Even if the elemental gets off the attack, it will be a single rune. Nowhere does it say that someone can read multiple runes at the same time. It's like reading a post on the message board. You read one sentence at a time. As soon as one is read, it explodes and destroys the rest unless they're written on adamantine. And where does it say that reading a rune is a free action?

For the skeletons, it takes 2 hits to put one down on average. 9 archons out at once can get 18 attacks which is 11 hits on average per round. That's 5.5 dead skeletons every round for 50 rounds. After the skeletons are gone, the invisible summoner sics his eidolon on the cleric which should be a very easy fight. Or he could skip this step and have all his lanterns focus fire on the cleric to begin with. No 5th level cleric can survive volley fire for long from massed lanterns.

Sorry, the wiz/cleric is not winning this.

Where does it say that? The fact that Air Elementals have Auran as a language says that. If the enemy attacks a Wizard, they shrug, laugh as their Mirror Image takes the hit and then laugh again when the enemy is annihilated by explosions. You can read multiple ones. RAW it won't damage the other ones because they are objects in your possession. Objects in your possession have 0 chance of being damaged unless you roll a 1 on a saving throw (guess what... there isn't one so that's a literal 0% chance).

2 hits on Average? What kind of skeletons are you using. Even bad Skeletons easily have 30+ HP. That's 10~ rounds. Again, animals tend to have lots of HD and make great Skeletons. As do your CR appropriate enemies. Don't forget to add in the Desecrate Bonuses, those +hit and damage make a huge difference at this level. You are making some very odd assumptions to get 2 hits which makes your entire argument look very bad.


Sorry, show me where knowing a language automatically gives literacy in that language. They can speak it, but show me where they can read it. And where does it say you can read multiple runes? Show me.

The small elemental will probably get nuked by 6d6. And the now unpossessed additional runes gets nuked as well. By the way, how are you getting both mirror image AND summon monster off in the same round?

9 lantern archons vs 12 touch AC is 60% chance of a hit. So 900 attacks would be 540 hits which is 1890 damage. That's a lot of 30 hp skeletons nuked. Not to mention volley fire on the cleric which I notice you ignored.

I'm going to sleep now. Gotta work in the morning. I'll pick this up again tomorrow.


Well, this has turned into a debate addressing a really specific encounter that simply won't be like the vast majority of ones that players find themselves having to deal with. It is an interesting one, and there's elements of it that might be fun to use once in game, but, seems like, an encounter that is deserving of its own thread perhaps?

Druid, wizard, and other full caster classes have tons of potential, and can do spectacular things, that I won't argue against. They have potential to break fun for others sure, but, thing is, in reality, so far every single time I've seen the summoner in play, there's been glaring issues, in actual practice it's been more problematic than those classes.

I have heard from numerous sources about summoners (both vanilla, and of various archetypes) being a problem in a way that makes it sound to me like it isn't just me, or my player group, but that there's some serious issues with the class that need to be addressed to an extent that is much greater than it is with wizards, druids (which are MUCH less problematic than they were in 3.5 anyhow) and other full casters.


The special thing about the summoner is that he starts out with a companion, that is intelligent, doesn't need to be handled and is better than every martial at level 1.
The full casters can be build to be good at level 1 but then they are wasting high level potential.
The druid companion can be good at low levels but it is an animal with animal intellect and by that just can't do some kind of things.

The druid can exchange his AC at different levels to always have the best one. But it comes at some fluff and RP price. The summoner can just rebuild the eidolon.
If the druid companion dies it is dead. If the eidolon is dead it returns to it's plane and comes back a little later. Plus it can be summoned with a spell. In real play I have had much more problems with the summoner than with any other class.

And it is not silly to take off some of the summoner's worst sharp edges even is other classes still have potential to be a problem.

As is I will refuse to again play in a game with a summoner. It is an interesting class and because of that I would like a version that is not horribly, ridiculously broken (in a game hurting not only overpoweredness way).

The eidolon can not only out-damage a fighter it can instead out-skill a rogue. And it can switch between both modes at each level.


CRB PG 17 Under Intelligence wrote:

If you have a penalty, you

can still read and speak your racial languages unless your
Intelligence is lower than 3.

I showed you. Honestly you're really being intentionally Obtuse.

How is he having the Summons up in one round as a SUMMONER WHO SUMMONS CREATURES FOR A MINUTE PER LEVEL. He's had those elementals primed and ready for 3 minutes now.


Insain Dragoon wrote:


CRB PG 17 Under Intelligence wrote:

If you have a penalty, you

can still read and speak your racial languages unless your
Intelligence is lower than 3.

I showed you. Honestly you're really being intentionally Obtuse.

How is he having the Summons up in one round as a SUMMONER WHO SUMMONS CREATURES FOR A MINUTE PER LEVEL. He's had those elementals primed and ready for 3 minutes now.

1) The CRB passage is for PCs only.

2) The bestiary passage trumps it since "Languages: The languages most commonly spoken by the creature are listed here"

3) These statements have to have GM judgement. Obviously a 1 year old has an int at least 3 but it clearly can't read or write and unless he/she is a very unusual 1 year old, can't speak more than a few nonsense words either. Golarion does not have a 100% literacy rate. A 4 int elemental is barely sentient and should not be able to read or write. It's basically a baby version of the elemental.

4) You clearly did not read the exchange closely. He was talking about a WIZARD summoning the elemental and then having the elemental deliver the rune.

Perhaps it would help for you to actually read the exchange before jumping in.


I admit I didn't read the summoner fully, but as I understand one of the things is, you can put all of your evolution points into offense? Could one of the solutions be that you have something similar to Diablo 3 paragon levels (you must spend points in equal amounts between general/offense/defense/utility)?


Celanian wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:


CRB PG 17 Under Intelligence wrote:

If you have a penalty, you

can still read and speak your racial languages unless your
Intelligence is lower than 3.

I showed you. Honestly you're really being intentionally Obtuse.

How is he having the Summons up in one round as a SUMMONER WHO SUMMONS CREATURES FOR A MINUTE PER LEVEL. He's had those elementals primed and ready for 3 minutes now.

1) The CRB passage is for PCs only.

2) The bestiary passage trumps it since "Languages: The languages most commonly spoken by the creature are listed here"

3) These statements have to have GM judgement. Obviously a 1 year old has an int at least 3 but it clearly can't read or write and unless he/she is a very unusual 1 year old, can't speak more than a few nonsense words either. Golarion does not have a 100% literacy rate. A 4 int elemental is barely sentient and should not be able to read or write. It's basically a baby version of the elemental.

4) You clearly did not read the exchange closely. He was talking about a WIZARD summoning the elemental and then having the elemental deliver the rune.

Perhaps it would help for you to actually read the exchange before jumping in.

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding something about how the rules works, since stuff that is in the CRB does not apply only to PCs. And stuff that is in the Bestiary does not apply only to monsters (like say feats). A summoned monster has the stastics listed in it's bestiary entry. Therefore, because the Air Elemental has Auran in it's entry you will always summon an Air Elemental that speaks Auran. And since the elemental's intelligence isn't lower then 3 it can read it. That's how the rules work. It requires absolutely no GM judgment because RAW there is only way it works.


The bestiary entry is specific that monsters in the book only gets speaking for free. It trumps core rulebook mechanics since specific trumps general.

Maybe you play in your world that every single 1 year old child, child raised by wolves, barbarian ogre, dretch, etc has 100% literacy with no issues whatsoever (the real world doesn't even have close to 100% literacy even with schools vastly superior to what most of Golarion has), but actual game worlds have a mix of literacy and illiteracy.

PCs get literacy for free because they are special snowflakes and can always write it into their background, but everyone else is a GM judgement call.

Scarab Sages

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shroudb wrote:

eidolons should have a distinct vulnerability that comes online much earlier than dismisal.

p.e. removing the clause that they can harm creatures protected from protection from X.

It's a good thing that they can bypass Prot/X, because the Prot/X spells are ridiculous spells, that completely trivialise encounters with many iconic folkloric creatures, shutting down two schools of magic.

Hey! CR3000 Giant-Sized Brain Hive from Dimension X!
The one who has every telepathic ability in the book, and sank all its feats into Ability Focuses and controlling multiple creatures as free actions?
F*&! you. We got 1st-level spells!
So pffffffttttthhhhh!

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