Lead Designer
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
This thread is for general discussion of the Mesmerist base class, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.
As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all here to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.
Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Official Changes
The following are the official changes to the mesmerist’s abilities and spells.
Consummate Liar: Add this new class feature at 1st level. The mesmerist adds 1/2 his mesmerist level (minimum 1) on all Bluff skill checks.
Hypnotic Stare: The initial penalty from hypnotic stare is –2 instead of –1, and increases to –3 at 8th level. (It no longer increases at 12th level.) The stare no longer affects two creatures at 9th level. This class feature should also state that the stare ends if the mesmerist dies or is rendered unconscious.
Mesmerist Tricks: Triggering a mesmerist trick is a free action the mesmerist can use when it isn't his turn. Instead of lasting for 1 minute per mesmerist level, a trick remains set up until the mesmerist regains his spells. If the mesmerist sets up a new trick when he is already at his maximum number of concurrent tricks, he must choose one existing trick to dismiss without effect.
False Flanker: This trick can also trigger when the subject begins its turn adjacent to an enemy.
Mesmeric Mirror: The images last for 1 minute per mesmerist level or until destroyed.
Misdirection: In the third sentence, delete “, using the mesmerist’s combat maneuver bonus (including any bonuses specific to feinting)”.
Spectral Smoke: The cloud lasts for 1 minute per mesmerist level.
Painful Stare: Add this new class feature at 1st level. Once per round when it’s hit by an attack that deals damage, the target of a mesmerist’s stare takes additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1). The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn't his turn. If the mesmerist uses this to increase his own damage, increase the damage by 1d6 for every 3 mesmerist levels. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Bold Stare: Alter the following bold stare improvements.
Disorientation: The penalty applies on attack rolls, but not damage rolls.
Timid Strike: The hypnotic stare penalty also applies on damage rolls.
Will Breaker: Remove this ability.
Mental Potency: This ability also increases the number of creatures affected by an enchantment spell or illusion spell that affects a number of creatures greater than one. This doesn’t increase the number of targets for a spell that targets one creature, but does increase the number if the spell targets one creature per level. The HD limit, number of HD affected, or number of creatures affected increases by 1 at 5th level (as the playtest document says), any by another 1 for every 4 levels the mesmerist possesses after 5th, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level.
Expedient Tricks: Remove this class feature. It's now redundant.
Spells
Change bestow curse to a 3rd-level spell and major curse to a 4th-level spell. Change phantasmal killer and telepathic bond to 4th-level spells. Add battlemind link to the 4th-level spell list.
|
Question:
Bold Stare (Su): At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare imposes a further effect upon its target. The mesmerist chooses one additional effect each time, and can’t choose the same improvement more than once unless otherwise noted. All of the mesmerist’s bold stare improvements affect the target (or targets, if the mesmerist can affect multiple creatures) as long as it’s under the mesmerist’s hypnotic stare.
Does it mean I choose an additional effect at level 3 and every 4 levels there after that would go into affect each time I use hypnotic stare or do I choose the additional effect when I use hypnotic stare, so I can switch between effects?
This one looks interesting
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love this class. It's like a beguiler-meets-bard. Illusions, Enchantments, and support, what more does a guy need.
|
This is the only way around it, however it is still very risky and chancy to even succeed, so overall I feel this class can be improved because of that flaw which is partially addressed.
Don't forget that Glamers, figments, and shadow illusions are not mind affecting plus it gets a few spells that are not enchantment or illusion. But yes it is a hinderance to the class.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Very interested in playing this class, perhaps with a whip build.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is the exact class I have tried to create multiple times as wizard, cleric, oracle, shaman, etc.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I gotta say, I'm disappointed with the Mesmerist. Was looking forward to a crowd controller, and while their gaze ability is neat, they feel far more focused on using those Tricks to set up situational buffs around the party. They don't even get Dominate Monster on the spell list, only as a capstone ability, usable on a single creature at a time, with a DC based on their expended spells and with a likely 5 point DC reduction, that the target gets immunity to if they make the save.
I do like the mesmerist but agree with you about the dominate monster spell. It really does feel like it should be in his spell list. Also a little surprised that suggestion and a few other abilities, like extra bluff intimidate or diplomacy, are not linked to his gaze
I like the class, especially that ability that allows them to cure several ailments.
|
|
The Misdirection Mesmerist Trick states: "... The
mesmerist attempts a Bluff check to feint against a single
target of that attack, using the mesmerist’s combat maneuver
bonus (including any bonuses specific to feinting). ..."
A normal Feint does not use the combat maneuver bonus in any way; it is just a Bluff check vs. target's Sense Motive or 10+HD+Wis Mod.
Is this an error or, how is CMB to be used?
|
|
Question:
Bold Stare (Su): At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare imposes a further effect upon its target. The mesmerist chooses one additional effect each time, and can’t choose the same improvement more than once unless otherwise noted. All of the mesmerist’s bold stare improvements affect the target (or targets, if the mesmerist can affect multiple creatures) as long as it’s under the mesmerist’s hypnotic stare.Does it mean I choose an additional effect at level 3 and every 4 levels there after that would go into affect each time I use hypnotic stare or do I choose the additional effect when I use hypnotic stare, so I can switch between effects?
I take it that you can pick a new bold stare ability at the levels, so at third you choose allure and at 7th you choose psychic inception. The next time you use hypnotic stare it has the affects of both psychic inception and allure. Each time you get a new Bold Stare it stacks with the ones you already got.
So, uh... Where's the dev lead on this?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, this is the psychic trickster.
Surprisingly, the mesmerist can not cause creatures to become fascinated with his hypnotic stare. I would like this class feature to be expanded to something similar to a gaze attack.
I like that tricks can be set up before combat and triggered as an immediate action. The mechanics for tricks are somewhat restrictive at the beginning. You only get 1/2 level + Cha per day, they only last for 1 minute, only one can be active at the same time and it takes an immediate action to trigger them. I see no harm in allowing the mesmerist to set up one trick per person at the same time (since there is still a restriction for triggering them action-economy-wise, until you get expedient tricks at 7th level). I would change this to allow more tricks being set up (which opens up tactical options) and add the option to trigger more than one of them as the mesmerist advances.
I wonder if expedient tricks works as intended (free actions can only be taken on your turn).
I like the tricks that rely on the use of skills, like vanish arrow - this is a design space that deserves to be explored further.
The spell list has a lot of enchantment spells that do similar things. That is not a feature of the mesmerist per se, but for a spontaneous caster with a limited amount of spells known, this becomes a problem. Most players would choose suggestion over reckless infatuation most of the time, because it is a lot more versatile. Divination spells, which are also prominent on the spell list, have the same problem - they are very situational in their applicability.
To address this, I suggest giving the mesmerist a class feature similar to the magus' knowledge pool (since the spell list is rather focused, that shouldn't be a problem, despite the mesmerist being a spontaneous caster).
Overall, the mesmerist seems to be less versatile than the bard (by which it will be measured), but it doesn't have enough focus to set it apart - yet.
A gish archetype would be nice.
Rule Minds is by far the most powerful and GM-annoying (in a high number of ways) capstone ability I've seen...
With no HD limit or some other rule to contain it, a Mesmerist can have any uber-powerful (both mechanically and in fluff) creature permanently enslaved, as long as it isn't immune to mind-affecting effects.
While the DC may be low for high-tier creatures, natural 1s are still a threat.
How is that different from Dominate Monster-spamming casters? Well, apart from the permanency and the fact that, as long as you don't have a powerful thrall you want to keep, you can spam it on lower creatures, it isn't different, but is a further unnecessary way to perpetrate potential game-breaking to which legitimateness is given.
Why not call this one 'hypnotist'? I think it's easier to understand the general concept than the term 'mesmerist.'
|
Developer
|
Does it mean I choose an additional effect at level 3 and every 4 levels there after that would go into affect each time I use hypnotic stare or do I choose the additional effect when I use hypnotic stare, so I can switch between effects?
You choose which effects your stare has once. You don't get to change it each time you use the ability.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thematically, I think the Mesmerist is really cool class, but mechanically it still feels a little clunky. It definitely takes a while to come into its own, being weak in the early levels when it can only toss out one trick at a time. I wouldn't mind them being able to implant maybe a couple more at these early levels, since Tricks appear to be their bread and butter and you have to predict for the conditions that will trigger them.
Additionally, I wouldn't mind some Tricks being more offensive in nature (especially since others have already expressed a desire for more CC build options) and allowing you to implant them in an enemy, which I think fits the concept fine (implanting subconscious debuffs in your foes seems pretty hypnotist-like). Heck, Vanish Arrow seems like a good example of that; I think it would make more sense to implant it on an enemy rather than a specific ally.
That said, I think the Tricks themselves look nice, being decently powerful. The Mesmerist just needs a bit more general applicability, I feel.
|
Developer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wonder if expedient tricks works as intended (free actions can only be taken on your turn).
It should say you can trigger tricks as a free action, even when it isn't your turn.
The spell list has a lot of enchantment spells that do similar things.
Some of these options will be worse than others or almost redundant, but are included so that appropriately themed spells appear on the mesmerist's spell list for activating spell trigger items and the like.
|
Developer
|
Is Mental Potency intended to scale? It seems like it's intended to otherwise I don't really see the point of it being a class ability.
It's not intended to scale. This feature lets you use a spell like sleep for a slightly longer time, but isn't intended to let a 10th-level mesmerist put 10 HD worth of creatures to sleep by casting a single 1st-level spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not call this one 'hypnotist'? I think it's easier to understand the general concept than the term 'mesmerist.'Eh, really? Hypnotists hypnotize, mesmerists mesmerize, about the same, isn't it?
Not quite. I've not heard of mesmerists before (and apparently neither has the spell checker here), but hypnotists, yes.
So while it's easy to understand what each one does, one is a well-known term that conjures ideas for most people while the other one is more obscure that might make people ask 'what's that exactly?' instead.
I mean, I've seen hypnotism itself used as a term in lots of fiction quite often, but I don't see its practitioners referred to as hypnotists.
You've not been to Vegas then? :)
|
|
As Mesmerist actually means Hypnotist it is not that big of a deal. I have heard of people referred to as mesmerists but it was from long time ago. You can look at Frank Mesmer for more info but that was in the 1800's. It is now known more as hypnosis but it was originally mesmerism. As they are trying to be more "occult" I think mesmerist is better for the name as it is more obscure and old fashioned.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you do your research on Vegas, you will find Mesmerists. To be honest, I really like mesmerists because their history is supposed to be mysterious, hypnotism is supposed to be scientific.
It's like comparing wizards to scientists. The both do research, they are both smart, but they are really worlds apart.
|
Developer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Folks, I'm Logan, and I'm the design lead for the mesmerist. Now you know who that guy was answering those questions earlier! I got a late start since I was out of the office for the start of the playtest.
I'll be following this thread the most closely of the design team.
|
Developer
|
I realize that at-will abilities need to be balanced in their power levels, but Stare in its current form feels very lack-luster.
Getting the power level right for this ability is really tough. I agree that it currently looks weak compared to evil eye (even as a swift action instead of a standard). Evil eye is exceptionally strong, though, and stacking penalties can make for really lopsided fights. The playtest version of the stare is pretty conservative, so we're going to watch how it works in play and bump it up in power level if we can.
I've just read over the mesmerist and while I'm going to have to wait to be able to actually try it first hand, here's my current concern(s) (that may be changed once I finally get to try it again).
I feel like a mesmerist only having one trick up at a time until 5th level is a touch on the weak side, but what really kind of puts me back is the 1 minute time limit (per level) for a trick that is up. I think the 1 minute time limit might be ok if one didn't have to stand right next to the ally that one is intending to buff or debuff. I'm imagining a mesmerist running around playing tag with his allies, tricking them out and while the image is amusing, the thought of playing it as such seems tedious (again before being able to try it).
Otherwise, I like the tricks, like the capstone ability even though I never get to play 20 lv. games, and I like the flavor most of all. Reminds me of a mentalist actually, which is probably how I'll play him / her when I can.
Interesting stuff.
Edit: Also just curious, will we be seeing a trick meant more for ranged allies (archers, gunslingers, etc...) in the future?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I like the idea of the Mesmerist, but I hate the timer on tricks. It really means you either have to know what you'll need or just never take cool niche tricks. You'll want something you know you can trigger in a combat or you'll save it to hopefully Apply then Trigger mid combat which just doesn't feel right. Mid combat I implant a hypnotic trick to turn around and trigger all within 6 seconds? Just feels out of sorts for me. Would it terribly unbalance it to remove the minutes/level duration of an Implanted but untriggered trick?
I feel it would be more thematic. You're doing your daily prep and Mesmo the Mesmerist is taking party members aside and being all "Let's have a chat ::hypnotoad:: cool see you in a bit" or "I'm just gonna tamper with your mind a little bit, no really don't be alarmed it'll just let your reflexes kick faster in certain events subconsciously" and implanting triggers during their conversation.
Self tricking in combat doesn't feel as weird to me as it's almost like they're refreshing a self hypnotism, kinda refocusing their center or just re aligning their perceptions to what they were when they tricked themselves the first time.
One thing I noticed while reading over the class was something I found mildly confusing, or at least in need to be worded better in the final printing.
In the initial description of the tricks, it says the mesmerist can implant tricks and activate them later. This reads (to me at least) as implanted tricks are not active. This leads a following sentence, the one saying that a mesmerist can only have one trick active at a time, to imply that they can have more than one trick implanted in people, but only have one 'turned on' at a time.
Now once you get down to the level 5 ability Manifold Tricks it says a second trick can be implanted, implying that only one could be implanted before. The wording on the initial description of tricks could be better to prevent confusion.
Or the wording on Manifold Tricks could be changed to says a second trick can be ACTIVE, which would mean the mesmerists could implant as many tricks as they wanted and then have TWO active at the same time, buffing the tricks ability somewhat. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When I read this class I couldn't help but imagine James Earl Jones as the mesmerist.
At what level does the mesmerist get a cult with harem? ;)