General Discussion: Mesmerist


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I have a question about the Mesmerist Misdirection ability. It states "If the Feint succeeds the target loses its Dexterity bonus to AC" (Hurray sneak attack damage) but in the next sentence it says "The Target doesnt suffer any additional effect that the mesmerist or triggering ally would cause on a normal feint" (Soooo no Sneak attack???)..... Im confused. Sneak Attack damage could be considered an additional effect of performing a feint. So would sneak attack apply or no?


Alric Rahl wrote:
I have a question about the Mesmerist Misdirection ability. It states "If the Feint succeeds the target loses its Dexterity bonus to AC" (Hurray sneak attack damage) but in the next sentence it says "The Target doesnt suffer any additional effect that the mesmerist or triggering ally would cause on a normal feint" (Soooo no Sneak attack???)..... Im confused. Sneak Attack damage could be considered an additional effect of performing a feint. So would sneak attack apply or no?

Sneak attack isn't an effect of performaing a feint. It just takes advantage and it's own mechanic. at least thats how i see it. Effects=/= damage

There are a few abilities in the game that activate when fienting that cause other debufss. Mostly feats that build off it

Not sure but kinda think thats what it was


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Is there any special reason mesmerists get so few spells?
Seems to be bard progression, but as far as i can see, there´s not much to boost combat prowess.
Overall the mesmerist could profit from more spells i think, less melee though somehow.


Probably a good idea to beef up the mesmerist spell list a bit, provided that the spells added don't run counter to the intended flavor of the class. I'm sure we'll get a more complete spell list once the book itself is released.

Sovereign Court

It has been said that every Occult class will be getting more fleshed-out spell lists, so don't worry too much about it not having anything specific, but on-theme.


Excellent.

I look forward to enthralling the minds of my enemies soon-ish.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually i meant spells per day.


It looks like it's the same progression of spells per day (and the same BAB progression) as a Bard.

So, I suppose that the Mesmerist can be looked at as sort of a psychic bard?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Seems like it. Only it doesn´t get something like bardic performance to boost attacks. I´m curious on how this will finaly develop, since the mesmerist is the most appealing concept of this book to me.
I also really liked what that one mesmerist trick did to illusions and enchantments, a good compromise to a certain (under GM´s hated) oracle revelation.


It's the most appealing concept to me, as well. I'm sure it will get other things to make itself stronger either in terms of spellcasting or making attacks.


I would love some Illusion based attack spells though. Like Illusion spears that cause damage if they aren't immune to illusions.

That would be such a unique spell styule and so cool. It would be good to work with their stare's damage boost too.. Because really... I think this class has some damaging issues, the stare certainly helps but! I really hope there is a way to make a combat mesmer, kinda like a Bard, except focusing more on the magic side rather than physical side (since the mesmer tricks are more defensive rather than buffing (like a bard's song).

I'd love a caster based mesmer, sure I'm going to play mostly debuffs.. but they should have some sort of ability finsih somethign too, just like every other similar casting class has. Other than stabbing with a stabbig or shooting w/ 30 feet. Toss in some of those neat newer psychic spells that damage mental stats for isntance.

A illusion spell "mirror strike" could make a translucent light prism spear that you fling that does actual damage as a touch attack would be great, even if it just had imprvements "mirror strike 2" etc. I just hope it has some form of it. Does damage, illusion based, with the ability to chose damage type maybe

granted they're probably more than set on what they are doing with the class already at this point

TO SUM.
I'm hoping for more unique spells, more mesmery, and some that allow for a pure casty style mesmer to do damage. Illusion based damage (still damage) that procs the painful stare ability to do normal lethal hp damage. AND i think some of those pyshcich only spells that do mental ability damage would be good.

Bard has the support caster with good physical combat abilty. Lets make the Mesmer
the debuff caster with good magic ability


That's a pretty neat idea, Zwordsman. I like it!


Thanks,

It was one i had earlier and mentioned earlier (Somewhere haha), some folks enjoyed it.
I hope that enough people enjoyed it that it had some consideration.

If it was a debuffer who also could have at least some offensive casting style.. It would basically be the only class I ever play from now on.. Well it still might be anyway, it just is a bit harder to make without a dip for the kind of hard games I tend to be involvedin. (ASSUMING it goes on the main paizo prd.. since even if we own the books my friend doesn't like using anything not on that.. like adv class origins for isntance)

Though mesmers work pretty well with guns, I've yet to actually play a game where guns are involved.. (Currently almost all my mesmers end up with that Rod of Ice, since the painful stare adds enough extra damage, until later levels anyway, but by then it's not too bad) Though it is more than possible I just suck at making melee builds.

Plust we already have something like Shadow evocation and shadow conjuration. It would be cool with a few more attack sorta stuff for a mesmer.
Otherwise it'll be hard to put enough poitns into casting for the Debuff DC's while being able to kill things. Genreally you'll have a friend who hits harder but not always


Yeah. It would be really nice to have more (and/or better) opportunities to take advantage of painful stare.

I was actually toying with the idea of a gun-toting Mesmerist, myself, but most of my groups wouldn't allow firearms.


Yeah.. most don't allow it at all (guns i mean). At least of all the non pfs games i've played in

They don't even have shadow weapon sadly. I think theo nly HP damaging spells they have currently are shadow conju and shadow evoc (4 and 5th level) oh and vamperic touch at 3. DOn't think I noticed any others
THough lv 1 does have touch of gracelessness.. phantasmal killer too but thats not really damaging, thats one of two people die. or no one. Shades would be awesome but makes sense not to have it on a 6th level class.. but shadow conjuration/evo greater, or shadow dragon, umbral weapons, shadow barbs (or something slightly different like an improved shadow weapon. Which barbs sorta is... but not quite.. i'd drop the darkness and vicious for any weapon ability)
At the very least they should get shadow weapon! And then a better version of shadow weapon (Illusion weapon or mesmeric blade maybe sorta spell). it does base 1 daamge even if disbelieved.. which will still activate painful staire. Which means in the hands of an illusion master-aka the mesmer.. That spell is stronger. It would still do the 1/2lv and the d6 stuff. It would be pretty cool

But really I hope this class will have some form of attacks..

Shadow tendrils (ranged touch attack your shadow extends and stabs, normal shadow subschool rules) would just be awesome. Anything like that. Hell just watch Shadow Skill, or SHikimaru from Naruto, gives you some cool shadow/illusion based offensive moves
I utterly love all the debuffs they have.. but if they had any damage spells (even just one per level) would make the class perfect for me.

So far neede dips or feat uses for weapons.. Though I do love the hand crossbow with painful stare... but reloading is still a pain due to handiness (Mesmer's have not great range on spells so.. sword and gun/xbow is a good visual to me but bad mechanical)
Wouldn't be so bad if crossbows had a feat that gave dex to damage (it really should have bene part of Crossbow mastery)

Or yakno you could just have a shadow subschool archetype that is focusing on more offensive illusions in some way


I could see a shadow-based archetype being fun.

Also, if I'm understanding it correctly, psychic magic does not have verbal or somatic components, so the only casting-related issue with reloading a crossbow would be material components, which can be dealt with (at least partially) by taking Eschew Materials.


Pretty much.
I was mostly thinking about the ranges most mesmer spells are (short, so 30-50ish). So it's far enough away your not in direct melee, but close enough that you can be in melee instantly.

So most of the mesmers I've had, I've looked at using weapons that can be usuable in both cases..
repeating hand crossbow + a blade is a fun combo until I had to reload.

Thinking back on it. DAgger pistol would be awesome choice if I ever had the chance.. Wish there was crossbow bayonets that didn't block the ranged portion..

But yeah mostly, they exist in a fairly dangerous placement with regards to spell ranges and combat. Either really need good melee, or good switchhitting (my preference)


Ideally, I'd wield a pistol and sword-cane, but, barring that, I would just take a light crossbow (because reloading as a full-round action is painful, especially at low levels) and deal more damage from further away.

I guess my problem with the (non-repeating) hand crossbow is that it does not do enough to capitalize on the fact that it can be wielded in one hand, given that it needs to be reloaded after each shot. Even with rapid reload, you still need a free hand (or prehensile tail, vestigial limb, etc) to actually reload your weapon. It's pretty cool thematically, but I don't see why I would take that over a light crossbow.


Yup yup..

I honestly hope one day they'll just take the hand crossbow and repeating version and reintroduce thenm as Wrist Crossbows.

That way you could have a usuable weapon that makes sense (from a pathfinder world sorta view point). It'd be a more assassin weapon too. Just looks like a bracer, but pops out into a wrist crossbow. That way your hand is free for reloading or spells.

Actually most of the time i've seen that in things it was actually used by psychic characters..

It would be neat if they had new weapons in this and that was one of them. It would make a lot of people's concepts usuable, and amusing.

Generally though I won't be long range shooting as amesmer, so the repeating hand crossbow works just fine for me. I'm ok with smaller die for the fun of it and occasional need to hide weapons entirely on me (rather feel that fits the mesmer). Plus visually I find it much more appealing to carry a blade and a crossbow/gun. But guns are rarely valid and light crossbows look silly in my head when used by one hand (plus the negatives) if I was purely ranged i'd pick up the bigger crossbows though. But as it stands I could probably get away without having to reload very often in the kind of fights I tend to have in most games. Depending greatly on how the final mesmer is.

Man if a game is gun valid? I would so focus down on Dagger Pistol or Sword Cane pistol, or the axebutt. I find those weapons to be utterly amazing in concept.. Though I sometimes wish those things were fully double weapons in mechanics, or did not require double enchanting... but I quite enjoy them

anote: Melee crossbows would be a good item to bring in some day too.. the Bayoneet currrently isn't that useful since it takes so long to put on and then prevetns shoots. I'd love if they introduced the crossbow from Hunter The Reckoning video games

Honestly all things except bows are so painful to reload in this game. Unles your gm is the type who doesn't mind you using yoru mouth to hold lighter weapons while you reload.


I hope come the release, the Mesmerist's tricks are closer in function to a Witch's Hexes, but y'know, more mind-slapping.

Dark Archive

Yay for mind slapping


Weird mental image of a mind squid just pimp slapping someone with bad graphics appearing on the screen (ala 60's batman) yelling "MIND SLAP!"


Yes! I will mind slap everyone with the back of my... well, my brain, I suppose, but it will still be glorious!


I think it would be cool if the Mesmerist's Trick feature could implant certain spells in a subject's mind to be triggered later, based on a condition the player choses.

Example: The first time the subject sees a goblin, the spell "unnatural lust" is triggered towards the goblin! :)

Or: When the subject drops below a certain hit point total, "invisibility" is triggered.

I dunno, I think something like that could make Tricks more useful.


Joe Hex wrote:

I think it would be cool if the Mesmerist's Trick feature could implant certain spells in a subject's mind to be triggered later, based on a condition the player choses.

Example: The first time the subject sees a goblin, the spell "unnatural lust" is triggered towards the goblin! :)

Or: When the subject drops below a certain hit point total, "invisibility" is triggered.

I dunno, I think something like that could make Tricks more useful.

Not sure about that. It would be cool, but contingency is a 6th level spell for a reason...

On the other hand, as a higher-level ability, that might not be too bad.


Arctic Sphinx wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:

I think it would be cool if the Mesmerist's Trick feature could implant certain spells in a subject's mind to be triggered later, based on a condition the player choses.

Example: The first time the subject sees a goblin, the spell "unnatural lust" is triggered towards the goblin! :)

Or: When the subject drops below a certain hit point total, "invisibility" is triggered.

I dunno, I think something like that could make Tricks more useful.

Not sure about that. It would be cool, but contingency is a 6th level spell for a reason...

On the other hand, as a higher-level ability, that might not be too bad.

It is an idea, that would need to be seriously balanced, and certainly not all spells would work. I think if they changed it, so you're not actually implanting a spell, but an affect in the right ballpark power-wise. Sorta like, how some Witch Hexes, mimic spells, but are balanced for the class feature.


Are the changes at the beginning of this thread legal in PFS?


Jiraiya22 wrote:
Are the changes at the beginning of this thread legal in PFS?

I think they will be, if they stay the same, once the book comes out.


I don't think they are currently pfs set no.


After taking a close look at the two Mesmerist archetypes previewed, on the Occult Adventure discussion, it looks like "Master Tricks" are apart of the post-playtest Mesmerist... Seems like a category of higher level Tricks.


I also noticed that Joe Hex. Makes wonder what new stuff the other classes got as well.

Sovereign Court

"Masterful Tricks" are a part of the playtest Mesmerist, accessible at level 12. ...They aren't that good, especially since they require two uses of tricks to implant.


Lukas Stariha wrote:
"Masterful Tricks" are a part of the playtest Mesmerist, accessible at level 12. ...They aren't that good, especially since they require two uses of tricks to implant.

They must not have been very memorable, in the playtest, since I completely forgot about them. :)

Let's hope, the Tricks feature will get a major makeover!

EDIT: The ones for the new "Cult Master" archetype, are pretty cool- that's a good sign for the class overall.


Cult Master, you say?

This is relevant to my interests...

I'm excited to see it!


I totally missed this preview thing.... must hunt it down I guess


Just go to the product discussion and enjoy! :)


hrm. i can't find it.. gonna keep looking i guess. I think I'm justn ot sure where product discussion for it is.. Not where I thought of it haha


Here you go.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Here you go.

thank you terribly. I'm not sure why I still couldn't find it


Hmm... The archetypes look neat. Not sure if I would really end up using cult master though, having taken a look at it. Mostly because Leadership is rarely a thing that my groups allow. Definitely interesting, nonetheless.


Arctic Sphinx wrote:
Hmm... The archetypes look neat. Not sure if I would really end up using cult master though, having taken a look at it. Mostly because Leadership is rarely a thing that my groups allow. Definitely interesting, nonetheless.

Yeah, the Cult Master is very cool, but Big Bad NPC, is what comes to mind.


In case anyone missed it, there is a link to an incredible OA preview, in the product discussion as well. (I'd post a direct link, but I'm not sure how.) It went up earlier today.


It's quite a nice preview. I am sure the finished Mesmerist is just as well-thought-out.


I just want to say that I am now playing a Mesmerist as it is currently written along with the "Official Changes" at the fore of this thread and I have to say that while I agree with almost all of the changes to tricks people have suggested, I was able to effectively use and play with them. I have a 1st Level Gnome Mesmerist with no weapons, and we are playing a quick one-shot (to break the new GM into GMing) before getting into Second Darkness. the first encounter was a "Dragon" (not actually thats just what the circus folk were calling it) that got loose from its cage. I used my Stare and cast command on it and told it to sit, it failed its will save and so it sat. The rest of the party then took the rest of the round to coax it back into the cage, thus our combat only lasted 1 round. During the next big encounter, we faced 4 thugs, I had already planted False Flanker on the rogue and at the first opportunity activated it, worked like a charm, rogue got her sneak attack and almost killed the thug. the next round I set it up on her again, and then stared at another so that our other caster could use an illusion to stall another thug for a round. Unfortunately the thug the rogue was fighting managed to crit her and take her out so I wasnt able to use the second trick for that combat. I used my mage hand to pick up a cue ball and took the thug out. the combat ended a couple rounds later but suffice to say I did not feel like I was useless or wasting actions in combat.

Outside of combat I was particularly useful as the face of the party. We found a couple of skulks that had broke into a store but got trapped, found out they were hired to do it and wanted them to lead us back to the source, unfortunately there was a guard blocking the exit, he was friendly to us but would have taken the skulks in. I used Command and told him to take a walk which he did and we were able to get them out.

Im enjoying the class alot and feel that its pretty good. Its not too underpowered.

I would also like to see tricks be allowed to setup on Multiple people at 1st level, say be able to setup at least 1 trick per person at 1st and then with manifold allow 2+, and make the number you can activate a round the same. So at 1st level you can only activate 1 per round not on your turn and cant activate another until after your turn has come around again, and with manifold this allows you to do 2+ per round at the given levels.


Might be interesting to note- The sneak peak of Ultimate Intrigue, lists the Mesmerist, as one of the skill-based classes.

I didn't get that impression of them from the playtest. However, "intrigue", seems to fit well.


Alric Rahl wrote:

I just want to say that I am now playing a Mesmerist as it is currently written along with the "Official Changes" at the fore of this thread and I have to say that while I agree with almost all of the changes to tricks people have suggested, I was able to effectively use and play with them. I have a 1st Level Gnome Mesmerist with no weapons, and we are playing a quick one-shot (to break the new GM into GMing) before getting into Second Darkness. the first encounter was a "Dragon" (not actually thats just what the circus folk were calling it) that got loose from its cage. I used my Stare and cast command on it and told it to sit, it failed its will save and so it sat. The rest of the party then took the rest of the round to coax it back into the cage, thus our combat only lasted 1 round. During the next big encounter, we faced 4 thugs, I had already planted False Flanker on the rogue and at the first opportunity activated it, worked like a charm, rogue got her sneak attack and almost killed the thug. the next round I set it up on her again, and then stared at another so that our other caster could use an illusion to stall another thug for a round. Unfortunately the thug the rogue was fighting managed to crit her and take her out so I wasnt able to use the second trick for that combat. I used my mage hand to pick up a cue ball and took the thug out. the combat ended a couple rounds later but suffice to say I did not feel like I was useless or wasting actions in combat.

Outside of combat I was particularly useful as the face of the party. We found a couple of skulks that had broke into a store but got trapped, found out they were hired to do it and wanted them to lead us back to the source, unfortunately there was a guard blocking the exit, he was friendly to us but would have taken the skulks in. I used Command and told him to take a walk which he did and we were able to get them out.

Im enjoying the class alot and feel that its pretty good. Its not too underpowered.

I would also like to see tricks...

Glad to hear that the Mes played well.


Joe Hex wrote:

Might be interesting to note- The sneak peak of Ultimate Intrigue, lists the Mesmerist, as one of the skill-based classes.

I didn't get that impression of them from the playtest. However, "intrigue", seems to fit well.

It also lists the Inquisitor, which is similar. Both get half their level to a social skill or two, good skill points, and 6/9 magic progression.


If any class has a social combat up their sleeve, it would be the Mesmerist. Looking forward to Ultimate Intrigue.


TheDisgaean wrote:
Does the "Hypnotic Stare" ability require some kind of action to maintain?

Any official answer on this?

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