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I think at this point, I'm confused about what the class, in terms of its flavor, is trying to accomplish.
Are we looking at an illusion-based spellcaster like the Guild Wars Mesmer? A psychic version of a support/hybrid class like the bard? A master manipulator who uses charm and compulsion effects (at which the psychic is currently superior)? I get the sense that the answer to all of these is "yes" and that these specific concepts may be better illustrated as archetypes. Still...I'm not sure about what direction the class should move in right now to both find its niche and remain competitive with the existing classes.
The only thing that I am certain of at the moment is that tricks as they stand need to be overhauled or dropped for something else.
The only thing that I am certain of at the moment is that tricks as they stand need to be overhauled or dropped for something else.Agreed. The tricks, to me, feel like something fitting for a tactician sort of class, while the name Mesmerist conjures up images of mind control, both subtle and blatant. As others have said, it would be nice to implant negative Tricks into those you target with the Stare, but even that feels like a weak option, given that the tricks themselves are generally minor, or if they added damage according to recent suggestions, would scale with the penalty on Will saves to +3. Perhaps AC and damage abilities might have their own scale?
I don't expect the Mesmerist to change much, but an archetype that could use more Enchantment effects through the Stare would be most welcome. Maybe something with Hexes so they can get a Slumber effect?
Well, that is one thing that a lot of people bring up; they don't think the buffs fit. I don't mind the buffs. The buffs are just so situational that they are kind of like a non-ability to me. You are either wasting standard actions in combat or throwing your trick charges into the pit of uncertainty.
Depressingly, I also don't expect it to change that much beyond the possibility of the precision damage thing.
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playing my first playtest session with a mesmerist tonight, and was curious on the spell list. I know mesmerists aren't intended to be healers, but they are support and having the ability to use a cure light or infernal healing wand reliably would nice. I've got my UMD up to +9 at level 1 and I'm still not comfortable with the idea of having to roll to save someone who is bleeding out.
I did notice healing thief was listed as a 1st level spell. is this a typo? it's a 3rd level wizard and witch spell. not that it's that great or anything, especially at really low levels, but that struck me as odd.
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The only thing that I am certain of at the moment is that tricks as they stand need to be overhauled or dropped for something else.Agreed. The tricks, to me, feel like something fitting for a tactician sort of class, while the name Mesmerist conjures up images of mind control, both subtle and blatant. As others have said, it would be nice to implant negative Tricks into those you target with the Stare, but even that feels like a weak option, given that the tricks themselves are generally minor, or if they added damage according to recent suggestions, would scale with the penalty on Will saves to +3. Perhaps AC and damage abilities might have their own scale?
I don't expect the Mesmerist to change much, but an archetype that could use more Enchantment effects through the Stare would be most welcome. Maybe something with Hexes so they can get a Slumber effect?
Well, that is one thing that a lot of people bring up; they don't think the buffs fit. I don't mind the buffs. The buffs are just so situational that they are kind of like a non-ability to me. You are either wasting standard actions in combat or throwing your trick charges into the pit of uncertainty.
Depressingly, I also don't expect it to change that much beyond the possibility of the precision damage thing.
I really like the tricks. Yeah, they're situational, but you can generally expect that a melee party member is going to get attacked and so mirror images are good. And you can expect that casters and ranged attackers might need to get away from enemies and rogues need to outflank and so alacrity for free movement is good. In the playtesting I've done so far tricks have been super effective. You just have to think ahead a couple steps. I'd rather not have another witch variant that puts hexes on enemies. If I would change anything about tricks it would be to extend the implant duration to permanent until discharged or overridden. Or at the very least 10 minutes per level so you can push through an area to try to keep from wasting a pre-combat buff.
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I agree with Selsenay, the tricks themselves are not bad and it isn't that difficult to figure out where each trick belongs at. My biggest concerns has been the 1 min/level time limit, the number of tricks a mesmerist can have implanted at a time, the touch to implant, and how well the player of the mesmerist will be able to remember which of his allies have what tricks.
On point 1. Logan kinda has indicated that the tricks will likely receive a time extension so that problem will likely be fixed.
On point 2. My opinion is that it would be nice to start off with the ability to have 2 tricks in play at a time and maybe start off with 2 different tricks to begin with so the Mesmerist can have a little versatility in their tricks from the beginning. No word yet on that front from Logan.
On point 3. No guarantee on whether this will change or not. I think maybe it should stay touch for the lower levels but maybe eventually gain the ability to placed on an ally within close range.
On point 4. At a table, a Mesmerist will likely be able to just place a marker down by the PCs he has tricks implanted on. And it's not like players haven't had to remember different immediate actions to begin with so I don't think this will really be that big an issue but I haven't gotten to play the class yet.
In addition, I think tricks offer a new venue of customization and interplay design space. New feats, spells, and magic items could be designed that augment, change, or counter tricks. There could be a spell that places a second trick on a target, another that makes the trick have a second use after it's first trigger. Still other spells could be augmented while a trick is placed on the target of the spell. I think there is a lot of cool design space that could be used with Tricks and I don't think they need to be taken out of the class.
I really like the tricks. Yeah, they're situational, but you can generally expect that a melee party member is going to get attacked and so mirror images are good. And you can expect that casters and ranged attackers might need to get away from enemies and rogues need to outflank and so alacrity for free movement is good. In the playtesting I've done so far tricks have been super effective. You just have to think ahead a couple steps. I'd rather not have another witch variant that puts hexes on enemies. If I would change anything about tricks it would be to extend the implant duration to permanent until discharged or overridden. Or...
Agreed. Tricks should have less restrictive mechanics, as others have said, but I like that they require some tactical thinking. As with all class features, some are more useful than others. Mesmeric Mirror and Compel Alacrity are really good, as is Spectral Smoke (not a lot of possibilities to penetrate smoke). Gift of Will is helpful when you know you are going to smoke out a lair of intellect devourers. Others are too specific, in my opinion (Reflection of Weakness, Slip Free, Surprising Switch). Psychosomatic Surge does not scale well.
Has anyone else noticed how a lot of these tricks relate to the mesmerist's class skills? If you feel that specific tricks are too weak (I am not talking about the general mechanics here), do you have better ideas for tricks with a thematic focus on specific skills, like Disguise or Intimidate? Or some ideas for more offensive tricks (those presented here focus primarily on defense)?
I agree with Selsenay, the tricks themselves are not bad and it isn't that difficult to figure out where each trick belongs at. My biggest concerns has been the 1 min/level time limit, the number of tricks a mesmerist can have implanted at a time, the touch to implant, and how well the player of the mesmerist will be able to remember which of his allies have what tricks.
On point 1. Logan kinda has indicated that the tricks will likely receive a time extension so that problem will likely be fixed.
On point 2. My opinion is that it would be nice to start off with the ability to have 2 tricks in play at a time and maybe start off with 2 different tricks to begin with so the Mesmerist can have a little versatility in their tricks from the beginning. No word yet on that front from Logan.
On point 3. No guarantee on whether this will change or not. I think maybe it should stay touch for the lower levels but maybe eventually gain the ability to placed on an ally within close range.
On point 4. At a table, a Mesmerist will likely be able to just place a marker down by the PCs he has tricks implanted on. And it's not like players haven't had to remember different immediate actions to begin with so I don't think this will really be that big an issue but I haven't gotten to play the class yet.
In addition, I think tricks offer a new venue of customization and interplay design space. New feats, spells, and magic items could be designed that augment, change, or counter tricks. There could be a spell that places a second trick on a target, another that makes the trick have a second use after it's first trigger. Still other spells could be augmented while a trick is placed on the target of the spell. I think there is a lot of cool design space that could be used with Tricks and I don't think they need to be taken out of the class.
These points cover my concerns about mesmerist tricks to a T. If the mesmerist is going to cover a support class role, staying back and puppeteering, it should certainly get a way to have some wiggle room in trick implanting. Distance is key, here. Like I said before, it doesn't make sense that a mesmerist can use Bold Stare to manipulate minds at range, but needs to touch allies for tricks. I would think that it would even be less of an issue to spend standard actions to implant tricks in combat when you didn't have to make your way into a monster's reach in order to do it.
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Brainstorming some ideas for additional tricks, based on the idea of tricks being based on skills:
- Appraise: Implant strong feelings of envy or greed in attacker (lesser form of envious urge)
- Bluff: Taunt opponent into attacking subject
- Diplomacy: Prevent opponent from attacking subject (similar to sanctuary)
- Disguise: Make attacker unable to distinguish between friends and foes or make subject appear like a relative/friend/ally to its foes
- Intimidate: Make attacker believe it is a chicken
- Knowledge: subject gains combat bonuses if it manages to identify creature, using mesmerist's knowledge check
- Linguistics: Create a babylonian confusion (minor confusion effect)
- Perception: Force attacker to avert eyes from subject
- Perform: Control opponents movement (similar to command, or maybe causing some penalties)
Brainstorming some ideas for additional tricks, based on the idea of tricks being based on skills:
- Appraise: Implant strong feelings of envy or greed in attacker (lesser form of envious urge)
- Bluff: Taunt opponent into attacking subject
- Diplomacy: Prevent opponent from attacking subject (similar to sanctuary)
- Disguise: Make attacker unable to distinguish between friends and foes or make subject appear like a relative/friend/ally to its foes
- Intimidate: Make attacker believe it is a chicken
- Knowledge: subject gains combat bonuses if it manages to identify creature, using mesmerist's knowledge check
- Linguistics: Create a babylonian confusion (minor confusion effect)
- Perception: Force attacker to avert eyes from subject
- Perform: Control opponents movement (similar to command, or maybe causing some penalties)
This. Is. AWESOME!
Mesmerism being equal parts know-how and a touch of actual magic opens up a ton of doors. Hell, it would more than make up for their spell list. And what could be more thematically appropriate than making 'magic' from the mundane?
No. You can only place one trick on a person at a time until level 5, at which point you can place two, and then again at the indicated levels.
Source: He can have only one trick active at a given time, and setting up a new trick ends the previous one (and he still loses the use he spent on the previous trick)
You may place a trick on someone a number of times equal to 1/2 level + Char mod per day.
Source: He can implant a number of these tricks per day equal to 1/2 his mesmerist level (minimum 1) plus his Charisma modifier.
So, if you have a charisma of 12, you can place one trick on someone twice per day, but only one at a time. At level five you could plant a trick on one person twice in the adventuring day, OR on two different persons at the same time.
Source: At 5th level, the mesmerist can have two tricks implanted at a time. The number of concurrent tricks increases by one for every 4 mesmerist levels he
possesses beyond 5th. Each creature can still be the subject of only one trick at a time.
Specific trumps general in Pathfinder, so the general rules for tricks are established at level one and then you gain specific exceptions to those rules as you level up.
Those lines are quotes from the book, if slightly out of order. Seems clear enough to me, what parts of it are causing confusion? Perhaps I'm skipping over something without realizing it?
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Beguiler was one of my favorite classes from 3.5, thereby causing the Mesmerist to instantly catch my attention. Unfortunately the Mesmerist seems a little... off-focus right now.
To reiterate some concerns stated earlier in the thread, the tricks appear to be horrifically restrictive in terms of their timing restrictions. None of them appear to be powerful enough to warrant the minutes-per-level duration they can be triggered in, and since they can't be reset efficiently in-combat, I'd like to see the minutes-per-level duration removed entirely.
Additionally, if the Mesmerist is to be a 3/4 BAB d8 HD 6th-level caster instead of a full 9th-level caster like the Beguiler, I feel they should have some way to contribute more ably to combat. It has been mentioned that they might be able to use their stare to decrease enemy AC or add extra precision damage-- I have an alternate proposal: I'd like to see the Mesmerist gain some sort of Autohypnosis option with their stare. I.e., a way to hypnotize themselves in order to bypass their normal physical limitations, perhaps templated similarly to an Alchemist's mutagen.
Thoughts on this approach?
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Honestly, why not drop the mesmerist down to d6 and 1/2 BaB? Use the extra design space to buff up those tricks.Screw that! I'm playing a melee mesmerist - don't touch my HP and BAB! There's plenty of boring back-line support classes who can let the real adventurers do the fighting - the mesmerist is able to handle the front lines if built for it with the right feats and abilities (he has no need to be a primary melee, that's what his spells and powers are for).
If you really were set up for melee, the at most, 2 less hp/HD and -5 attack wouldn't really damage your build.
Hearing that there is some sort of ability in the works to make the mesmerist more of a hybrid is heartening however. Currently, there is no more reason to have a mesmerist with 3/4 and d8 than there is for a wizard.
My confusion comes from one section saying "can implant a number of tricks equal to half level per day" then an ability that says "can implant two (or more at higher levels) tricks per day."
I suspect this means "per subject" now - so if you're sixth level, you can implant up to three+Cha modifier "Tricks" per day but only one (well, OK,you get Manifold Tricks at either 5 or 6 so actually two) Trick(s) per subject?
Or is this saying that you can only have one (or two or whatever your Manifold value is) on a subject but you can plant more once those are gone? But... don't you have to implant all Tricks at the start of the day or did I misread that section?
As an aside - I've only read the first three classes. Though I conceptually love the Medium, this is really the only one of them I'd really want to PLAY (as a player... as DM/GM, I think I'd prefer to toss Kinetecists around, and have a really good player or two running Mediums)
No you don't have to use all your tricks at once, I was using that time frame for the sake of simplicity. As for the other confusion you're not reading the entire section. The complete section you're looking at is:
He can implant a number of these tricks per day equal to 1/2 his mesmerist level (minimum 1) plus his Charisma modifier. He can have only one trick active at a given time, and setting up a new trick ends the previous one (and he still loses the use he spent on the previous trick) (Bold me.)
The tricks are meant to be used like Bardic Performance or Rage. You have a number of uses per day, and the possibility of different effects. However, until higher levels you can not have multiple effects ready to go at once. That's what Manifold tricks is supposed to do. Manifold Tricks is giving a higher level mesmer the ability to have multiple tricks active at the same time; however they must still be all on different subjects.
Manifold Tricks (Su): At 5th level, the mesmerist can have two tricks implanted at a time. The number of concurrent tricks increases by one for every 4 mesmerist levels he possesses beyond 5th. Each creature can still be the subject of only one trick at a time. (Bold me again.)
Why is mesmerist so limited on spell usuage per day, I am reading that can get at least 6 spells per day, but only can cast 1 per day?Folks, I'm Logan, and I'm the design lead for the mesmerist. Now you know who that guy was answering those questions earlier! I got a late start since I was out of the office for the start of the playtest.
I'll be following this thread the most closely of the design team.
Where are you getting that, Serchn4? Mesmerist has essentially the same spell progression as a bard. So only at level one do you cast a single spell per day and that is assuming you only have an 11 Charisma.
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How can one use psychic magic and abilities to affect a swarm? There is really very little that can affect a swarm of creatures which by nature is kind of like a psychic network (more literally if it possesses hive mind). Could mesmerist be adapted so her charms can affect swarms? Perhaps a Mesmerist Trick or one of her Bold Stare affects?
How can one use psychic magic and abilities to affect a swarm? There is really very little that can affect a swarm of creatures which by nature is kind of like a psychic network (more literally if it possesses hive mind). Could mesmerist be adapted so her charms can affect swarms? Perhaps a Mesmerist Trick or one of her Bold Stare affects?
Page 30, Left Column, halfway down.
Psychic Inception: The hypnotic stare and its penalty canaffect creatures that are mindless or immune to mind affecting effects (such as an undead or vermin). The mesmerist can also partially affect such a creature with his mind-affecting spells and abilities if it’s under his hypnotic stare; it gains a +2 bonus on its saving throw (if any), and if affected it still has a 50% chance each round of ignoring the effect. Ignoring the effect doesn't end the effect, but allows the creature to act normally for that round.
While that is a cool idea, swarms are immune to any effect which targets a single creature - which means they're immune to the stare.
Somehow I always forget that they're immune to single target things. Probably because I'm used to thinking of them as a single entity for initiative, hit points, etc. >.<
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Depressingly, I also don't expect it to change that much beyond the possibility of the precision damage thing.Since about 80% of people commenting on the class really dislike it, I think you can expect significant changes.
Really dislike it is perhaps too strong a phrase, but it's not coincidence that it's the one I haven't built a playtest character for...
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Brainstorming some ideas for additional tricks, based on the idea of tricks being based on skills:
- Appraise: Implant strong feelings of envy or greed in attacker (lesser form of envious urge)
- Bluff: Taunt opponent into attacking subject
- Diplomacy: Prevent opponent from attacking subject (similar to sanctuary)
- Disguise: Make attacker unable to distinguish between friends and foes or make subject appear like a relative/friend/ally to its foes
- Intimidate: Make attacker believe it is a chicken
- Knowledge: subject gains combat bonuses if it manages to identify creature, using mesmerist's knowledge check
- Linguistics: Create a babylonian confusion (minor confusion effect)
- Perception: Force attacker to avert eyes from subject
- Perform: Control opponents movement (similar to command, or maybe causing some penalties)
Great suggestions!
While a lot of the current tricks work with the mesmerist's skills, it's likely that the final versions will have more automatic effects since the tricks are situational. Still, having them themed around the skills creates a nice connection.
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Somehow I always forget that they're immune to single target things. Probably because I'm used to thinking of them as a single entity for initiative, hit points, etc. >.<
Swarms... are weird. With psychic inception, the mesmerist can affect *some* of them, but only if they have a hive mind and an Intelligence score. So in most cases, the mesmerist will just need to trick someone into giving him an alchemist fire. :)
Depressingly, I also don't expect it to change that much beyond the possibility of the precision damage thing.Since about 80% of people commenting on the class really dislike it, I think you can expect significant changes.
I sincerely look forward to what direction you are going to take things. Honestly, I don't think the precision damage is a bad way to go if you want to push this class into having a more martial direction. That is simply not the direction I would want to take it.
I am kind of worried by the "significant changes" phrasing. I hope the class still feels the same afterwards! I completely agree it needs to be more powerful - the tricks are so cool but ultimately hard to use. The spell list is really fun.
I think the class should have some answer to mind-immune foes, but should definitely have them as a weak point. I'd like to see them switch into more of a support role when going up against undead - start leveraging their defensive tricks, and casting some buff spells (which don't yet exist on its spell list).
I dislike the "50% chance to ignore the effect each round" thing. It adds too much chaos to a class that is an analytical master of the mind.
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From the 6+ skill points per level, I assume that the mesmerist is meant to be at least somewhat of a skill monkey, especially when drawing parallels to the bard. With the idea of tying tricks to skills, what about literally tying a skill to each trick, and adding a passive bonus equal to your charisma modifier to the skill when you select a trick? Or getting a free rank in the skill (giving the +3 trained bonus) when you pick that trick? The thing is, in its current state the mesmerist is sort of MAD, and there's no reason to go into INT outside of skill points. Where the bard has versatile performance to cope with this, I think the mesmerist could benefit from a similar buff, especially with the main shtick of the class being utility in buffing and debuffing.
I am kind of worried by the "significant changes" phrasing. I hope the class still feels the same afterwards! I completely agree it needs to be more powerful - the tricks are so cool but ultimately hard to use. The spell list is really fun.
I think the class should have some answer to mind-immune foes, but should definitely have them as a weak point. I'd like to see them switch into more of a support role when going up against undead - start leveraging their defensive tricks, and casting some buff spells (which don't yet exist on its spell list).
I dislike the "50% chance to ignore the effect each round" thing. It adds too much chaos to a class that is an analytical master of the mind.
I think throwing the class some of those good bard spells (like Good Hope or gallant inspiration) would potentially help a lot when the presence of many zombies means it is time to buff folks.
I am more of an advocate for their ability to overcome immunity to mind affecting. There are so many fun spells that are rarely used because of how often it shows up. The 50% chance to ignore is a bit much for me to think that it's ability is really usefull,but I would pretty much take what I could get to ignore immunity to mind affecting.
I agree that it is too chaotic.
May by replace it with something that they can actually increase if they wanted to?
I understand being wary of making the ability too powerful, but may by write it in a Wayne that they can get better at it?
I also would rather it not go too far down the party support role, I do not want it to feel TOO much like a bard.
How bout some serious auto-hypnosis buffing? (please ignore this if I missed it in my read-through of the class)
Athletes use hypnosis to get over their failures--I could see the Mesmerist providing buffs to improve their companions abilities (like bardic inspire courage).
For example:
-skill/attack/damage/physical attribute bonus
-amp up spellcasters DC's or affects...like granting metamagic feats
-tricks that provide situational class features like trapfinding, evasion, flurry of blows, rage, or bonus feats.
That can get meta-gamey, but I see the mesmerist filling the bard's place as a good at support (and illusion). Why not the ultimate 5th party member by replicating skills as needed?
I really like it, though like all playtest classes it still needs some work.
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Somehow I always forget that they're immune to single target things. Probably because I'm used to thinking of them as a single entity for initiative, hit points, etc. >.<Swarms... are weird. With psychic inception, the mesmerist can affect *some* of them, but only if they have a hive mind and an Intelligence score. So in most cases, the mesmerist will just need to trick someone into giving him an alchemist fire. :)
Sure, the alchemist fire is all well and good if I want dead bees. But what if I want honey?
Mostly, it's that the mechanics could use some help. I love the idea of Rule Minds, but it could use a boost as a capstone. If I could say what I like, at least, I love the Towering Ego and Glib Tongue abilities. Very flavorful and it'd be amazing to build a mesmerist who's cocky, overconfident, and a fantastic liar.
A class based around deception, guile and mind tricks?
THAT IS MINDBLOWING! (Pun intended)
I will give some opinions, after all, this is a playtest.
Tricks: I really like those. But having to touch your friends to implant the tricks on them in the middle of the combat is a huge problem, also having to spend a standard action to implant ONE trick. I would suggest a move action to implant tricks at a distance, or stronger tricks so that it be worth losing your standard action.
Hypnotic Stare and Bold stare: I can begin to mindrape people only by looking at them? Can I get a Hell Yes? This is really cool, and to be able to do this and cast mind spells on constructs and undeads is great. No complaints about this.
Towering Ego: The ability is great, and the flavor is top notch. I can believe a mesmerist, something like Patrick Jane, not being affect by spells because of the biggest organ in his body, i.e his ego.
Mental Potency: Only 1 more HD? Really? This is not going to make a lot of difference. This is a class that inhales awesome and exhales debuffs. It should be something like the awesome display ability from the Oracle's Heaven Mystery:
Glib Tongue: I am in love with this feature. I will never speak the truth now, and nobody will know! I just have one doubt, is this supposed to be a lv 9 feature, or lv 12?
Like aceDiamond said, some mechanics could use a overhaul.
I will give my feedback of the other abilities other time, but I hope this is useful to any of you.
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In conjunction with towering ego, the mesmerist could have a will affecting evasion.
There are several mind affecting effects that have secondary effects that he could avoid.
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I have a suggestion here, in order to have his tricks on friends at a distance, have the Mesmerist have to focus his Stare on the person he wants to give the trick to.
That way, he can use tricks on his friends, but only at the cost of reducing his effect on his enemies.
That is a pretty excellent suggestion! I second this.
I have a suggestion here, in order to have his tricks on friends at a distance, have the Mesmerist have to focus his Stare on the person he wants to give the trick to.
That way, he can use tricks on his friends, but only at the cost of reducing his effect on his enemies.
I think this is a potentially pretty interesting game mechanic. Like: the mesmerist can have an offensive support mode and a defensive support mode.
I only worry that the offensive support mode would only be the only one seeing use as I think a strong offense tends to be the best defense in pathfinder when the dragon's full attack pretty much spells death either way.
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Glib Tongue: I am in love with this feature. I will never speak the truth now, and nobody will know! I just have one doubt, is this supposed to be a lv 9 feature, or lv 12?
The table is correct; it should be level 11.
I will give my feedback of the other abilities other time, but I hope this is useful to any of you.
Very! Thank you.
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Logan Bonner:
Any comment on my suggestion?
It's an interesting idea. My inclination is to make the effects of tricks stronger and their durations longer to make them a more appealing pre-combat buff than make them more effective as an in-combat ability. I think this could interesting as part of a feat, though.
All I can say is that sword-cane proficiency was love at first sight.
I'd love some more mucking about people's memories. Forgetting the hypnotic stare is a great start! If nothing else, I can always do a Fetchling with the Memory Lapse alternate racial option.