Will there possibly be a way to do the painful stare damage more than once per round?
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I am underwhelmed by the damage increase. Bardic music gives bonus damage to every attack that hits (4 to every hit at level 17 while the mesmerist is adding 6 to only one hit).
And if we think about the accuracy bonus as well, painful stare comparatively has little going for it. Maybe bold stare and the tricks will be enough, but all excitement for painful stare has left me.
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How do you feel about losing out on the d6s precision damage due to an ally attacking before you? Is that a tactic with tradeoffs (having ally delay for the potential of you hitting for a bit more) you want to keep in?I'm going to clarify that you can wait to trigger the ability rather than having it trigger the first time the enemy's hit. I want the trade-off to typically be "Do I attack or do I cast a spell and let someone else get the bonus damage"? Depending how you build your mesmerist, you might pretty much pick one of those exclusively. :)
Am I correct in believing that Painful Stare can be triggered on the attack roll of a non-damaging spell such as Ray of Exhaustion?
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Am I correct in believing that Painful Stare can be triggered on the attack roll of a non-damaging spell such as Ray of Exhaustion?
Not anymore... the changes listed here weren't fully written out as complete rules, so I've missed a couple bits. I've changed the wording for this bit as well.
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Am I correct in believing that Painful Stare can be triggered on the attack roll of a non-damaging spell such as Ray of Exhaustion?Not anymore... the changes listed here weren't fully written out as complete rules, so I've missed a couple bits. I've changed the wording for this bit as well.
Ah, that's unfortunate. I was hoping for some fun causing phantom pain with spells.
Greetings Logan,
I really like the class as it stands post revision. I agree with concerns that setting up tricks needs a bit of fiddling with. Perhaps the utility of hypnotic gaze could be increased in order to address some of the concerns playtesters are expressing.
What if the Mesmerist could end his stare to plant a post-hypnotic suggestion on an enemy, as the spell Hypnotism, Command or Suggestion?
What if he could focus his stare on an ally to implant a post hypnotic suggestion and bolster their mental faculties? For example,on an ally , the hypnotic stare could provide a +2 morale bonus to will saves and painful strike could give temporary HP that apply to the first attack taken each round. Applying tricks or the effects of "touch treatment" to an ally you turned you focus onto would address some of the action economy and having to be right next to all the party members concerns that have been brought up.
As far as action economy is concerned I think that whether you up the utility of hypnotic gaze or not, a class that uses so many immediate actions would benefit from having the gaze be usable as a "move or swift" action rather than being swift exclusively. Instead of spending move actions trying to dodge and weave around the battlefield the Mesmerist could let his subtle psychic influence do the walking.
Wouldn't it be an iconic and flavorful ability for all Mesmerists to be able to enthrall an audience, as the spell Enthrall a number of times per day or at will, preferably from level 1 onward?
I really like painful strike. I hope it will be amended so that the mesmerist personally deals an extra 1d6 damage at level 1 and an additional 1d6 damage every 3 levels thereafter, specifically because the mesmerist does not seem to get a way to lower AC or boost his own attack outside of turning invisible, as I look through his spell selection. I appreciate the subtle choices you've made to make this class not scale up to hit bonuses or scale down enemy AC in order to force it to make other choices but when a focused Mesmerist's blows do connect I feel it should have quite a bit of impact. Maybe scaling up the damage could be a bold stare improvement?
Speaking of spell selection I echo the concern that dominate monster is not on the mesmerist spell list but is on the Summoner spell list. I also think that Astral Projection would make sense for a class that draws their magic from the Astral Plane.
I like what you've come up with initially and I'm floored in a good way by how the class has improved with your first pass at revisions,
-Jason Williams
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As far as action economy is concerned I think that whether you up the utility of hypnotic gaze or not, a class that uses so many immediate actions would benefit from having the gaze be usable as a "move or swift" action rather than being swift exclusively. Instead of spending move actions trying to dodge and weave around the battlefield the Mesmerist could let his subtle psychic influence do the walking.
You have a good point. I think there's a potentially interesting give-and-take between establishing a stare and triggering your tricks on a turn, but it's not really worth having to track your actions like that when you're already looking for action triggers. I'm changing the first post to reflect a new version. The stare will remain a swift, but tricks start out as a free action you can use when it isn't your turn.
Is Consummate Liar meant to replace Glib Tongue? If not, hooo bluff baby.
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Is Consummate Liar meant to replace Glib Tongue? If not, hooo bluff baby.
For the record, I don't think the Glib Tongue ability is meant to give you the +20 on bluff checks. "Merely" the not-quite-spell-resistance against detect lies and zone of truth and other effects. Admittedly it isn't perfectly clear since it mentions the actual spell in the description but I am fairly certain it isn't meant to give the big numerical bonus to bluff. I don't think the Consummate Liar is going to displace the utility of Glib Tongue but rather work hand-in-hand with it.
The stare will remain a swift, but tricks start out as a free action you can use when it isn't your turn.
I am loving this more and more. :D
Haven't playtested this yet, but I think the new version is much improved and I look forward to road-testing it.
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I certainly love the changes to the class, but I have 2 concerns at the moment that I think should be thought upon for the final class.
1) Psychic Inception is almost always the "right choice" for Bold Stare at level 3
-It may sound hyperbolic, but in almost every campaign (and certainly in PFS), it will be true. Mind-affecting-immune enemies are too prevalent (with several entire creature types being wholesale immune) for virtually every offensive class feature of the Mesmerist to be shut down against them. You're going to lose out on any bold stare options you choose, painful stare and about half your spell list against these enemies, leaving you with tricks and perhaps some supportive illusion or necromancy spells (though many of the aforementioned creature types share an immunity to many of the latter.) I would really consider Psychic Inception being baked into the standard class features at level 3 and adjusting Bold Stare to begin at 4 and every 4 levels after
2) Dominate Monster should be added to the spell list
-While I think the capstone is neat, it has both advantages and disadvantages to the traditional form of the spell. The fact Rule Minds is consigned to the DC of the triggering of the spell, the DC decrease for non-humanoids and the important factor that it is a capstone (and I've played far more games that go to 16 than do to 20) all contribute to making the traditional spell version an important missing piece of the Mesmerist's arsenal. And let's not even get into the fact that the Summoner would get his own Dominate Monster 4 levels before the master of minds would, and at a more effective DC than him...
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Is Consummate Liar meant to replace Glib Tongue? If not, hooo bluff baby.For the record, I don't think the Glib Tongue ability is meant to give you the +20 on bluff checks. "Merely" the not-quite-spell-resistance against detect lies and zone of truth and other effects. Admittedly it isn't perfectly clear since it mentions the actual spell in the description but I am fairly certain it isn't meant to give the big numerical bonus to bluff. I don't think the Consummate Liar is going to displace the utility of Glib Tongue but rather work hand-in-hand with it.
That's correct. The glib tongue feature gives you only the ability to lie without being detected, NOT the bonus on Bluff checks.
Ah, my mistake. That's where my confusion came from. Thanks to both of you.
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Hey, Logan.
I was curious if you would consider making Threnodic Spell from Ultimate Magic either a bonus feat that you get if you take the Psychic Inception bold stare OR if not a bonus feat, would atleast add in a line to Psychic Inception that says "You may take the Threnodic Spell feat as though you met its prerequisitites." or something like that.
Having to put 6 ranks in Knowledge(Religion) and take Spell Focus(Necromancy) is harsh for the Mesmerist (and admittedly most other casters).
Just a thought.
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How do you feel about losing out on the d6s precision damage due to an ally attacking before you? Is that a tactic with tradeoffs (having ally delay for the potential of you hitting for a bit more) you want to keep in?I'm going to clarify that you can wait to trigger the ability rather than having it trigger the first time the enemy's hit. I want the trade-off to typically be "Do I attack or do I cast a spell and let someone else get the bonus damage"? Depending how you build your mesmerist, you might pretty much pick one of those exclusively. :)
I had misunderstood what this ability had done. The way it is actually set up, I'm not sure it's giving enough of a bonus. I would recommend changing the ability to "once per round per character". An extra amount damage equal to half your level at any point per round is not overly substantial. Also, it is my understanding that the goal of the mesmerist is to be a skirmishing caster. I feel as though forcing one to choose between the bonus to damage to an ally and choosing the d6 for yourself is not playing into that, but further dividing the mesmerist.
If you must keep it to only a single attack per round, I would recommend that you make it something like, "all allies gain an attack bonus on stared creature equal to your mesmerist level/3 (minimum 1). Whenever an ally hits the creature, you may expend this as an immediate action to give a damage bonus equal to half your mesmerist level. If you expend this on yourself (d6 rule here)".
How do you feel about losing out on the d6s precision damage due to an ally attacking before you? Is that a tactic with tradeoffs (having ally delay for the potential of you hitting for a bit more) you want to keep in?I'm going to clarify that you can wait to trigger the ability rather than having it trigger the first time the enemy's hit. I want the trade-off to typically be "Do I attack or do I cast a spell and let someone else get the bonus damage"? Depending how you build your mesmerist, you might pretty much pick one of those exclusively. :)I had misunderstood what this ability had done. The way it is actually set up, I'm not sure it's giving enough of a bonus. I would recommend changing the ability to "once per round per character". An extra amount damage equal to half your level at any point per round is not overly substantial. Also, it is my understanding that the goal of the mesmerist is to be a skirmishing caster. I feel as though forcing one to choose between the bonus to damage to an ally and choosing the d6 for yourself is not playing into that, but further dividing the mesmerist.
If you must keep it to only a single attack per round, I would recommend that you make it something like, "all allies gain an attack bonus on stared creature equal to your mesmerist level/3 (minimum 1). Whenever an ally hits the creature, you may expend this as an immediate action to give a damage bonus equal to half your mesmerist level. If you expend this on yourself (d6 rule here)".
I think an attack bonus is mechanically way better than one to damage for the most part. Frankly, I wish that the damage could be used for one attack per ally. Or maybe it could do an increasing amount of damage.
Like: the first ally to do damage deals 1 extra damage, then the second attack deals 2 extra, then 3, etc. (up to 1/2 your level which every ally does when they take an attack past that). However, the mesmerist can end this ongoing effect by "exploiting" the enemy as a swift action. This is sort of like investigator's studied strike.
"Exploit Pain" will let the mesmerist deal 1d6 extra damage (per each point of painful stare bonus damage) on each of her attacks that round but this resets the "counter" on that bonus damage to 0. The counter also resets to 0 if the mesmerist focus's his painful stare on a new target.
This lets the mesmerist play a fun little betting game where she tries to decide if she can kill that given enemy on her turn or would she rather not exploit the enemy's pain to keep the damage bonus going. I think it is also flavorful in the the "phantom pain" of painful stare intensifies with each new injury.
Hey, Logan.
I was curious if you would consider making Threnodic Spell from Ultimate Magic either a bonus feat that you get if you take the Psychic Inception bold stare OR if not a bonus feat, would atleast add in a line to Psychic Inception that says "You may take the Threnodic Spell feat as though you met its prerequisitites." or something like that.
Having to put 6 ranks in Knowledge(Religion) and take Spell Focus(Necromancy) is harsh for the Mesmerist (and admittedly most other casters).
Just a thought.
Do you just want this so it always works?
caues the current mesmer build can pick this up. So the only reason to get threndonic spell is because you don't want ot risk the 50% ? or am I missing adetail?
Cause i'm pretty sure this gives you the ability mind effect anything in the game, but possibly at 50% rate of working.
In general between the two I'd rather be ableo affect anything 50% of the time rather than only undead 100% of the time** spoiler omitted **
I like painful stare set up. Though maybe at higher levels the bonus damage isn't much over all but it's pretty solid. Even if it's only once a turn. Having everyone get to use it once can get pretty big.. like a team of 4 mesmers would be adding just a ton of extra damage. (SEE QUESTION BELOW).
The only change I would have liked would be that it could apply more openly for the mesmer only. I.e. I would love if it applied the extra damage for more spells. Like spells that...
At level 4, it is either 2 or 5.5 extra damage around (if you don't accidentally waste it when all your attacks miss). Color me unimpressed by painful stare. People who are happy with it are not really thinking hard about it, imo.
As for thredonic spell: maybe there could be a mesmer-specific metamagic feat that raises that % to 100% when they cast a spell in a slot one level higher.
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This class seems way better with the changes. Even still, I don't think mental potency does anything. It scales up at just the right speed to make sure your spells with HD caps never quite work against opponents of an appropriate CR.
Tricks are really the big draw of the class for me, but even with the changes (which, don't get me wrong, are a huge improvement) it seems like the mesmerist will never have enough of them, or be able to have enough of them active simultaneously, given how situational and short-lasting the effects are. I like the effects, but knowing when to implant which trick in advance and in whom to most effectively implant it sounds nearly impossible since the effects are so situational. And most of the tricks have such short-lasting effects, implanting them in combat will rarely be able to compete with spells for reasonable usages of standard actions.
As written, these effects would be perfect if the mesmerist had at least twice as many daily usages (or better, they were just at will) and could have one active on each ally simultaneously right from level one. The effects would still be minor, but they'd have much better odds of ever being useful. Right now the mesmerist doesn't have the coverage or quantity to set up enough reasonable contingencies.
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Apologies if this has been suggested before, but what if Tricks functioned similar to Hexes? You can implant them in as many people as you want, but each person can only benefit from a specific trick once per day.
Then Manifold tricks becomes the number of tricks each person can have implanted at a time.
Or would that just be a nightmare of bookkeeping?
Or would that just be a nightmare of bookkeeping?
Bookkeeping Nightmare (Su): As a standard action, the mesmerist can attempt to make a creature currently affected by his hypnotic stare suffer a sympathetic bookkeeping nightmare. On a failed Will save, the affected creature is sickened for a number of rounds equal to the number of tricks currently implanted in other creatures by the mesmerist. If the mesmerist also has the manifold tricks ability, the creature takes a -4 penalty on its save against this effect. Contract devils, wordcasters, and other creatures similarly accustomed to bureaucracy and/or micromanagement are immune.
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Actually note: Can multiple painful stares apply? Hypnotic stare specifically mentions multiple does not work. but painful stare is a different mechanic right?
That's a good question! With the wording as it is now, it's a little vague. My initial thought is that the wording of hypnotic stare should change so that the *penalties* don't stack rather than the "effects." That way, if you have two mesmerists and one enemy, they can both cause extra damage but only the worse penalty applies. Since evil eye is a similar effect, those penalties probably won't stack either.
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Odd question, which probably applies to most of the psychic classes:
I was playing an adventure the other day and we got grappled by n entangle spell. One of our party members escaped with a gaseous form potion, but of course, couldn't take any real actions beyond moving, because gaseous. However, while gaseous, you're still able to look and to think, so here's my question: can a mesmerist still use the stare effects and cast spells (since they're psychic) while in gaseous form?
You could still cast psychic spells because they don't require the restricted components. Currently, you'd still lose the stare since it's a supernatural ability. We don't currently give "psychic effects" any kind of blanket exception from that rule, and there's no specific wording in the ability to that end.
In the long run, we might, but I'm not sure how well the star works when you don't have eyes...
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As written, these effects would be perfect if the mesmerist had at least twice as many daily usages (or better, they were just at will) and could have one active on each ally simultaneously right from level one. The effects would still be minor, but they'd have much better odds of ever being useful. Right now the mesmerist doesn't have the coverage or quantity to set up enough reasonable contingencies.
The tricks will be getting an overhaul to be easier to use, but that's a larger and more comprehensive change than we're going to roll out during the playtest.
Odd question, which probably applies to most of the psychic classes:
I was playing an adventure the other day and we got grappled by n entangle spell. One of our party members escaped with a gaseous form potion, but of course, couldn't take any real actions beyond moving, because gaseous. However, while gaseous, you're still able to look and to think, so here's my question: can a mesmerist still use the stare effects and cast spells (since they're psychic) while in gaseous form?
You could still cast psychic spells because they don't require the restricted components. Currently, you'd still lose the stare since it's a supernatural ability. We don't currently give "psychic effects" any kind of blanket exception from that rule, and there's no specific wording in the ability to that end.
In the long run, we might, but I'm not sure how well the star works when you don't have eyes...
The stare works so long as you make a DC 20 concentration check. It's in the rules you wrote. Thus a gaseous mesmerist could use his stare, theoretically. I believe in gaseous form you lose supernatural abilities. The mesmerist stare could be an exception? Also, please consider if the stare is useable while in another form.
I'd like to make a druid/mesmerist who transforms into a bear. :)
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I am somewhat confused on how painful stair works. Does it not get a 1d6 added to the mesmerist's damage until level 3, meaning at level 1 all your adding is a pitiful 1 point of damage, or do you in fact get 1d6 at level 1? Any clarification on this would be grateful as I want to test out this class!
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Yeah, that seems kinda a strange way to handle it, TBH. You start off adding so few damage points that it doesn't make any significant difference only to see a massive growth in damage as soon as you hit level 3. The current way just seems....odd....though I suppose it is somewhat similar to the magus in that they also get a massive damage spike at level 3 with dervish dance, but prior to that they at least still have other ways of reliably dealing good damage, such as spellstrike, while the mesmerist has pretty much no way of dealing reliably good damage until level 3, as it stands.
Correct.so.. i' m lv 10 staring at someone, a fighter attacks him. They do an extra 10 precision damage
but if I myself attack, I do 10damage+3d6?
Should that be 5 damage at lvl 10? Or is the ability supposed to be full level? I'm rather in favor of full level since it only applies for one attack a round.