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I think that one thing that may allow the Mesmerist to keep up with casting without making it a full 9 level caster would be to give it some Enchantment and Illusion SLAs somewhat like the summoner's Summon Monster SLAs.
I quickly jotted down a spell from each spell level of Wizard spells, alternating Enchantment and Illusion, that I thought fit the archetype of the mesmerist the best. (Narrative archetype... not class archetype)
Having these additional options lets them feel like powerful enchanters or illusionists without pushing their spell level up.
I would suggest save for these as 10 + 1/2 Lvl + Cha since they will not get 9th Level casting. This could be modified by spell focus or other feats. (not metamagic)
Usage, much like the summon monster SLA, would be 3 + Cha / day.
The list could be tinkered with obviously, this is just a quick list of ones that popped out.
Mes Lvl - Spell
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Lvl 1 -- Charm Person
Lvl 3 -- Minor Image
Lvl 5 -- Hold Person
Lvl 7 -- Phantasmal Killer
Lvl 9 -- Dominate Person
Lvl 11 - Permanent Image
Lvl 13 - Insanity
Lvl 15 - Scintillating Pattern
Lvl 17 - Dominate Monster
Lvl 19 - Shades
Dominate Monster and Shades are both 9th level on the wizard spell list but I thought that Shades fit nicely as the Gate equivalent since it is so versatile.
Thoughts anyone?
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What's stopping you from building a casty focused Bard or Mesmerist? I've built casting focused bard builds before. You two have already noted that the Summoner does fine if they don't go Gish right? So that means the Summoner can either go Gish or just go straight caster?
I know the mesmerist I am playtesting is very caster focused.
Have a nice vacationThanks!
I just wanted to say that I think people are putting too much focus on buffing allies with this class. We don't really need a contingency bard and there are other classes in the occult book alone that make better supports. I think the focus should be shifted more to controlling the fight, as I've said previously. Keep the tricks, but rework them a bit to add status effects to enemies. That way you're as effective protecting yourself in combat as you are with a team. Maybe they require touch attacks or close range, which give the class a reason to be up close with their 3/4 BAB (as they currently have little reason to be anywhere but the back lines) I think the most effective way of supporting the team is stopping the enemies hurting them to begin with, by trying to lock down monsters rather than increase defenses. I'd at least like an archetype (if the main class can't do this) to let the Mesmerist get through combat and other situations purely through mental control and a little bit of swordplay (both solo play and with a team)We're working on some methods to increase the existing debuff abilities of the mesmerist. The tricks will probably remain more like buffs because once we do that putting even more debuffs in would be overkill and unbalance the class. :)
Honestly, I'd rather play the class as a debuffer than a buffer. Obviously, certain buffs (especially those in the manner of the false flanker trick) are welcome, but I would much rather have the Mesmerist's combat focus be on tricking enemies rather than enhancing allies via post-hypnotic suggestions.
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Honestly, I'd rather play the class as a debuffer than a buffer. Obviously, certain buffs (especially those in the manner of the false flanker trick) are welcome, but I would much rather have the Mesmerist's combat focus be on tricking enemies rather than enhancing allies via post-hypnotic suggestions.Have a nice vacationThanks!
I just wanted to say that I think people are putting too much focus on buffing allies with this class. We don't really need a contingency bard and there are other classes in the occult book alone that make better supports. I think the focus should be shifted more to controlling the fight, as I've said previously. Keep the tricks, but rework them a bit to add status effects to enemies. That way you're as effective protecting yourself in combat as you are with a team. Maybe they require touch attacks or close range, which give the class a reason to be up close with their 3/4 BAB (as they currently have little reason to be anywhere but the back lines) I think the most effective way of supporting the team is stopping the enemies hurting them to begin with, by trying to lock down monsters rather than increase defenses. I'd at least like an archetype (if the main class can't do this) to let the Mesmerist get through combat and other situations purely through mental control and a little bit of swordplay (both solo play and with a team)We're working on some methods to increase the existing debuff abilities of the mesmerist. The tricks will probably remain more like buffs because once we do that putting even more debuffs in would be overkill and unbalance the class. :)
While I agree, I think pure-debuff focus would put the Mesmerist in direct competition with the Witch... And I'm afraid the Mesmerist would have difficulty comparing to the power level of a full caster with access to several at-will debuffs (2 of which effectively remove the enemy from the fight) that can be extended almost indefinitely.
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Very nice changes for the most part. :)
I'm not sure how worth it Painful Stare is, though. I mean, they still have no way to improve their to-hit chances, making the 'personal use' addition a bit shaky, and +1/2 level once a turn isn't exactly a huge bonus.
A Bold Stare ability allowing the Stare to apply its penalty to AC seems like a really good, thematic, way to enable a melee Mesmerist, and make Painful Stare actually workable as a meaningful personal melee enhancement.
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A Bold Stare ability allowing the Stare to apply its penalty to AC seems like a really good, thematic, way to enable a melee Mesmerist, and make Painful stare actually workable.Not gonna happen.
Sad. :(
May I ask the logic behind why not? It's not like other Classes don't get equivalent bonuses.
If worried about other people getting the bonus, you could easily have the penalty only apply to attacks from the Mesmerist himself.
On a separate note, I also feel like Hypnotic Stare's current progression is...weird. Increasing only once at 8th level is really strange. I'd be inclined to argue it should increase once more at 15th. That's still only -4, which is nice, but not absurd, and can't be increased further, and be more on par with, say, a Court Bard's Save penalty progression.
I like painful stare a lot. However, is it not easy to worry if this class will inherit the rogue's long maligned accuracy problems?
This class is still less accurate than a bard or a skald. You could say that this is made up for with damage, but I am not sure I can buy that. Power attack is a bad bet for a class with low attack potential.
I still lobby for the removal of the martial portion of this class, but if that is what needs to be done then there should be some kind of accuracy resource (like maybe a self-only trick that lets your reroll a missed attack or grants a sudden increase in accuracy that goes to the end of the round).
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So the various stares, painful, bold etc all activate under Hypnotic stare right? That makes it worth using for sure..
Admitidly I would enjoy some bonus to hit, but hypnotic stare doesn't seem to have a range restriction right? so you could use it with xbow, in which case opens up a few targetting effects.
Unless it has been changed (which hasn't been stated), it only works within 30 feet.
One weird thing with Painful Stare: I'm level 10. I Bold Stare a target, initiative hits 0, round restarts.
Fighter attacks the target, dealing an extra 5 precision damage. On my turn (the Mesmerist), I attack and deal no additional damage from my Painful Stare.
Is that how it would work? Can it be rereaded to allow the extra d6's without making it overly complex? (Additionally, once per round when the target is hit by a character with the Bold Stare class feature,...)
Anyways, I like the changes. A great direction for the class moving it definitively towards a support and attacking fallback role.
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Really, really fantastic changes here. Now that the duration of tricks have been changed, I think they can for the most part be left alone. I'm talking about the trick style as a whole, not necessarily the individual tricks themselves. Those I haven't looked into enough to comment on.
Painful stare was really needed. Great job on it. I like that it boosts our allies so even if we miss we're still filling the support/debuff role. One thing I would change is give Mesmerists a +1 attack buff/3 levels to go with our extra d6 damage dice. That can be the attack bonus we need. Mess with the numbers if you find that too strong, but I don't think it is. It's only a +1 until level 6.
Other than that, honestly I feel the main issues with the class were taken care of. The plus to Bluff was a nice surprise. I understand that the Mesmerist is meant to be an okay skill monkey but not as good as say, the bard or investigator. So maybe a small change, such as allowing diplomacy to be used off the bluff skill? It saves us a skill point and lets us use the new bonus on the most used face skill. Just a thought. Not really needed but perhaps wanted. Likewise, the lack of rapier is killing me, but I'm a dirty dirty min/maxer that wants Fencing Grace. Still, it's thematically on point.
But they are wants, not needs. I would roll this class happily now, especially if the bonus to attack is added (the only thing I feel the Mesmerists are at this point truly lacking). Great job.
Those changes are going in the right direction I'd say; making the Mesmerist embrace a martial mix with trickery justifies the 3/4 BAB / d8 HD. The stare front loading bonus seems a little up there, but A Spell Focus WIzard would be doing the same (assuming however that Psychics DON'T get spell-focus for some reason...)
I like the ideas so far; now the feinting abilities, and flanking tricks, etc can serve as your own buff mechanic, and your damage boost from stare is your incentive to enter combat.
Also, the trick changes are awesome; I can see their uses surging forward now.
i like the changes. any chance we'll see a feat or something to allow the precision damage more than once a round? you could (and probably should) limit it to only apply to the Mesmerist's own attacks once per round to avoid encouraging them "to make a bazillion attacks in a turn" as xevious commented.
I am still incredulous about this class being useful with martial abilities, but I guess there are always pistol builds. A pistol build would ultimately be dope.
Perhaps it would be TOO dope (even as I think it is the only reliable way to do damage with attack actions here).
And perhaps a mesmerist teamed with a bard or skald would be neat. The bard would help cover the mesmerist's accuracy problem while the mesmerist helps out with the bards increasingly measly damage at higher levels. I suppose like the skald, this class's usefulness is going to depend a lot on party composition.
now i want to put together a mesmerist with a one level dip into mysterious stranger...
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now i want to put together a mesmerist with a one level dip into mysterious stranger...
Party concept: The Gun Club
1. Gun Mesmerist
2. Gun Bard
3. Spellslinger
4. Gun Warpriest
5. Gunslinger
The Bard and the Mesmerist make guns super good for use with 3/4 attack progression--almost as good as they are for the un-buffed gunslinger--while the gunslinger himself gets to have a big goofy smile on his face for all the accuracy and extra damage coming his way. The spellslinger is also gonna be weirdly accurate and is also a wizard so he is alright, especially if he specs for using a double barreled musket and can rely on spells and magic items to do his loading for him. The warpriest is secret king though. He can further improve his accuracy and damage with a swift action buffs and has enough feats that he can easily build for guns while still getting the weapon specializations for it.
As an additional aside: there should be a gun focused war priest so I can make a character based on this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orivEatc2fw
I'd also say that painful stare should be written into hypnotic stare, rather than being a second ability. Since you get them both simultaneously, from the beginning, the hypnotic stare provides the effects of painful stare, so it seems a bit silly to have them be separate as things are now.
I'm all for keeping them separate if it means more archetype stacking. Keeping class abilities small is important in a post-archetpye world. I hate it when one large class feature is modified in one way by one archetype and then a different archetype modifies the same ability slightly but in an unrelated way and you cannot stack the two archetypes.
I can't think of an example, but I've definitely bumped into it before.
Developer
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I'd also say that painful stare should be written into hypnotic stare, rather than being a second ability. Since you get them both simultaneously, from the beginning, the hypnotic stare provides the effects of painful stare, so it seems a bit silly to have them be separate as things are now.
This is because I'm pretty sure we'll make archetypes that remove painful stare and feats that refer to painful stare, and that's easier to reference if it's its own ability.
Edit: Out of curiosity, though, is there a reason none of the new psychic spells are for the mesmerist? Many of them (particularly ego whip, id insinuation, mind thrust, psychic crush, and thought shield) seem like they would be right up the mesmerist's alley...
The spells were completed close to the end of the playtest document's design process. While we knew we wanted the psychic to have access to all of them, the mesmerist will probably pick and choose some. It was better to playtest them in a more restricted fashion in case they had weird side effects with the classes other than the psychic.
I'd also say that painful stare should be written into hypnotic stare, rather than being a second ability. Since you get them both simultaneously, from the beginning, the hypnotic stare provides the effects of painful stare, so it seems a bit silly to have them be separate as things are now.This is because I'm pretty sure we'll make archetypes that remove painful stare and feats that refer to painful stare, and that's easier to reference if it's its own ability.
Glad to read you are designing with this in mind.
How do you feel about losing out on the d6s precision damage due to an ally attacking before you? Is that a tactic with tradeoffs (having ally delay for the potential of you hitting for a bit more) you want to keep in?
So the painful stare only does an extra 1d6 damage when you get to 3rd level? Or should it be 1d6 for every 3 levels (minimum 1d6)?
A quick comparison shows that painful stare is only slightly worse than the rogue's sneak attack at most levels (assuming the mesmerist is the one who hits for extra precision damage). painful stare is easier to pull off than sneak attack, but on the other hand, it can only be exploited once per round. Seems reasonable.
If one were to optimize for damage, then using a reach weapon with power attack and vital strike might be the way to go (just imagine whacking your opponent with a giant maul that was hidden behind your back, like a cartoon character).
I think that one thing that may allow the Mesmerist to keep up with casting without making it a full 9 level caster would be to give it some Enchantment and Illusion SLAs somewhat like the summoner's Summon Monster SLAs.
I quickly jotted down a spell from each spell level of Wizard spells, alternating Enchantment and Illusion, that I thought fit the archetype of the mesmerist the best. (Narrative archetype... not class archetype)
Having these additional options lets them feel like powerful enchanters or illusionists without pushing their spell level up.
I would suggest save for these as 10 + 1/2 Lvl + Cha since they will not get 9th Level casting. This could be modified by spell focus or other feats. (not metamagic)
Usage, much like the summon monster SLA, would be 3 + Cha / day.
The list could be tinkered with obviously, this is just a quick list of ones that popped out.
Mes Lvl - Spell
---------------------------------------------
Lvl 1 -- Charm Person
Lvl 3 -- Minor Image
Lvl 5 -- Hold Person
Lvl 7 -- Phantasmal Killer
Lvl 9 -- Dominate Person
Lvl 11 - Permanent Image
Lvl 13 - Insanity
Lvl 15 - Scintillating Pattern
Lvl 17 - Dominate Monster
Lvl 19 - ShadesDominate Monster and Shades are both 9th level on the wizard spell list but I thought that Shades fit nicely as the Gate equivalent since it is so versatile.
Thoughts anyone?
Cool idea Telziri! I'm digging the idea and the spell list!
Instead of lasting for 1 minute per mesmerist level, a trick remains set up until the mesmerist regains his spells. If the mesmerist sets up a new trick when he is already at his maximum number of concurrent tricks, he must choose one existing trick to dismiss without effect.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
You could actually get gunslinger and or swashbuckler and have both hands full of a weapon and a gun/xbow/etc and still cast spells no?
Why yes, you can. My PFS character does this exact thing.
The Mesmerist should get a small scaling bonus to hit the target of their stare. That would go a long way towards making them more effective melee combatants without breaking anything.
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How do you feel about losing out on the d6s precision damage due to an ally attacking before you? Is that a tactic with tradeoffs (having ally delay for the potential of you hitting for a bit more) you want to keep in?
I'm going to clarify that you can wait to trigger the ability rather than having it trigger the first time the enemy's hit. I want the trade-off to typically be "Do I attack or do I cast a spell and let someone else get the bonus damage"? Depending how you build your mesmerist, you might pretty much pick one of those exclusively. :)
Thanks for that clarification! I was wondering that myself.
Awesome. Thanks!
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I like painful stare a lot. However, is it not easy to worry if this class will inherit the rogue's long maligned accuracy problems?
This class is still less accurate than a bard or a skald. You could say that this is made up for with damage, but I am not sure I can buy that. Power attack is a bad bet for a class with low attack potential.
I still lobby for the removal of the martial portion of this class, but if that is what needs to be done then there should be some kind of accuracy resource (like maybe a self-only trick that lets your reroll a missed attack or grants a sudden increase in accuracy that goes to the end of the round).
I can see any future Mesmerist I build going the same route as my investigator.
1 level dip into a gunslinger archetype.