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I am expecting that you will only lightly touch your burn for a few points for things like buffing your kinetic defense or a really clutch extension until you hit a very challenging fight. That said, if our hydrokineticist Eram is any indication, I am expecting a level 10 kineticist, even a Dex-focused one (like Eram) will probably have more than 16 Con and...Back on the topic of burn for a moment, perhaps I'm missing something.
Let's say we have a hypothetical level 10 kineticist with 16 CON, and 83 hp. This character can take a maximum of 8 burn without falling over. However, taking even a few burn drastically reduces its effective maximum hit points.
Let's say there is hard encounter one morning, and the kineticist is forced to use 4 points of burn. The rest of the day they are running about with an effective max hit points of 43. That seems a bit rough.
Proposed alternative:
What if the burn is uncurable, but the nonlethal damage can be cured normally. The catch is that each time the kineticist takes burn, they take an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their level * their new burn total.In this case, our kineticist from the earlier example will have 4 burn and full health after the first encounter (assuming he heals afterwards). In the next encounter, if he spends even 1 burn he'll take 50 points of nonlethal damage. This also gets into an interesting case where you could actually start wrapping nonlethal damage (assuming you're on good terms with your cleric). If you managed to take a total of 18 points of burn in a day, the next use will outright kill you (of course you've been KOing yourself quite a bit beforehand).
Disclaimer:
Obviously I've not played, or even properly built a kineticist yet, so perhaps the mechanic works fine, it's just a little unclear if the design intent is to actually use burn, or if it's there as a really last ditch, all-in sort of ability. So many uses of burn seemed to imply that it would see fairly regular daily use.
That's fair. It does put the kineticist in a slightly strange space of being incredibly weak (physically) after a hard fight. A wizard may blow all his high level spell slots in a fight, but he can still recover from damage, drain, negative levels and even death so that in the next fight he can use his staff and scrolls. The kineticist can put himself into a coma for a day and nothing can revive him (except miracle/wish I suppose).
So they have very high CON, but effectively run with average "effective" CON. If they choose to go for the big guns they become very weak until the next day. If I can find time during the playtest, I'll definitely be trying one of these characters out in PFS.
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Since Kinetic Blade doesn't call out an action I am assuming it is Free since you are intended to be able to attack iteratively with it.
How does this interact with traditional melee feats such as weapon focus, power attack, vital strike etc? I recognise that none of those would apply on a blast that is ranged touch to begin with since it retains that quality in melee weapon form, nor can you add strength to damage.
Quick question on the expanded element wild talent,
When you select a different element with it, it says you gain a 2nd 4th and 6th talent at respected levels from the wild talents of that element. Does this mean that these are bonus talents, or does this mean you now have the ability to choose them?
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As an important note, I LOVE the burn mechanic... It feels like the core mechanic of the class even above everything else. It is one of the true risk/reward styles, which is attractive to many types of players, and this class has enough customization (optional melee ability, differing playstyle based on chosen element) that it should be flexible enough for most.
If you really aren't interested in Burn-style mechanics, it may be a sad fact that this class isn't for you.
It's also totally possible that they will include an archetype that removes the traditional Burn in for a limited pool (1 + 1 / 4 levels or something). This would keep the base class as is but still cater to those who want a (more restricted, read: not risk/reward) style Kineticist.
Quick question on the expanded element wild talent,
When you select a different element with it, it says you gain a 2nd 4th and 6th talent at respected levels from the wild talents of that element. Does this mean that these are bonus talents, or does this mean you now have the ability to choose them?
The ability to choose 'em.
Since Kinetic Blade doesn't call out an action I am assuming it is Free since you are intended to be able to attack iteratively with it.
How does this interact with traditional melee feats such as weapon focus, power attack, vital strike etc? I recognise that none of those would apply on a blast that is ranged touch to begin with since it retains that quality in melee weapon form, nor can you add strength to damage.
You should be able to use all of those except I am uncertain of Vital Strike. Uncertain means I'm not sure which way to go in the end. You guys's math or playtests can convince me one way or the other. Eram so far does not have the melee talents, but he is considering taking them (I think he grabbed Weapon Finesse at level 5 to get himself ready), so I have less playtest data on them than the ranged ones.
Ok since this seems to be a problem. Maybe make the wording for Blasts in the first class feature more clear on the fact that Blasts are not touch attacks unless stated otherwise.
Quick question on the expanded element wild talent,
When you select a different element with it, it says you gain a 2nd 4th and 6th talent at respected levels from the wild talents of that element. Does this mean that these are bonus talents, or does this mean you now have the ability to choose them?
From the PDF:
If your chosen element is different than your primary
element, you can learn 1st-level wild talents from that
element. At 10th level, you can learn 4th-level wild talents
from that element. At 16th level, you can learn 6th-level wild
talents from that element.
It doesn't say you get talents, just says you have the ability to learn from those elements with a different level requirement.
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Put me in for changing Terrakenisis to Geokenisis, too. Geo just plain sounds better.
If you take 1 HP per level every time you use burn then your getting a class ability that doesn't really increase much in uses per level. It is completely reliant on HP and since you roll for HP, you can roll bad. I would much rather have a point system maybe like ki or grit but with status ailments when you reach 0 or if you spend beyond your level. Also I much rather spend my favored class bonus on skill points. In fact a psychic rage mechanic would fit this class very well but instead of an increase to Str/Con you get Int/Cha. You also get bonuses on damage, number of targets effected, combat maneuver checks, etc. When you stop the rage you might get effects like confusion, daze, fatigue, staggered, sickened, exhausted, etc.
In that case would it be better for the ward to be one point/round rather than one point/minute? Without being able to reup it like I had originally thought, it feels a bit unbalanced compared to the terrakineticist's straight DR, even if it's a larger ward and would work against magic.I had a quick comment about the Aetherkineticist. I like the idea of the force ward defensive power as temporary hit points, as opposed to a force armor effect, such as Mage Armor. Thematically, I like the idea of the shield buckling under assaults. The regeneration effect feels a little awkward to me. Regenerating at a rate of 1 point per minute means that it's only going to be good for one or maybe two CR appropriate hits in an entire fight unless you spend several actions dismissing and re-upping it. It feels it would be a bit unwieldy during play to be doing that, especially compared to the relatively straightforward defensive powers of the other elements, particularly terrakineticist's straight Damage Reduction. Perhaps if it could be 'recharged' with an immediate action rather than dismissed and subsequently reapplied? It's still a weak enough shield to take a hit or two at a cost of full-round actions, with a little less to keep track of.Reupping it should not give those hit points back (the immediate action part of all the defenses to turn them on and off was added later, as I initially conceived of them as constant until I got some feedback that they needed to be toggleable, and I didn't realize the implication that people might think they can refresh it that way). Good catch! I will get that as an official clarification in the first post.
It also scales really well with burn compared to the terra (+1/2 level instead of +1). Also, since the terrakineticists are more of the turtley defensive sorts, it fits if they have something more long-lasting for enduring physical attacks and the telekineticist is more universally applicable, but not as enduring.
When I think about this class, I want to play a quarterstaff wielding monk who can manipulate the elements. I also want to play a dragon disciple. Also an ice make wizard straight out of Fairy Tail.
Does kinetic blade use the critical threat range of the weapon you create? Since it says you actually create a weapon, I would expect yes.
It should say it keeps the blast's crit range somewhere in that second-to-last sentence. But you should be able to do things like Weapon Focus or (possibly if you aren't using a touch one) Power Attack.
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As the Aerokineticist (they often specialize in mobility and range over raw power.) and Hydrokineticist (they are known for their versatility and flowing forms, like the everchanging currents.) describe in there short descriptions should they not get Acrobatics as a skill?
In terms of the Burn system I would actually suggest a mechanic similar to Grit but based on Con. The ability to earn Burn could be based on situations similar to gaining a second wind. But the penalties for having 0 burn could be like your character is exhausted until they have had a full nights rest. so the benefit of having at least one burn is that you don't end up exhausted.
Metakineses
- At 17th level, you actually have a cap of 5 burn/round, with a hard cap of 6 burn/round at 18th. The example of combining Quicken + Twin, using 7 burn, is not achievable unless there are feats/other that increases burn/round cap, or you select one of the 2...
Burn ability include option of spending one move action to reduce burn of kinetic blast by 1. So practically you can spend a move and a swift action to fire two kinetic blasts at 18th level and retain standard action to do something that does not require any burn.
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When I think about this class, I want to play a quarterstaff wielding monk who can manipulate the elements. I also want to play a dragon disciple. Also an ice make wizard straight out of Fairy Tail.
Also swashbuckling wind mages, elemental fistfighters, volcano mages, thundermages, and stormcallers. Should have kineticists that manipulate bodies (necromancer types) and plants.
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Just started reading, and had the visceral reaction that the term infusion isn't the right one for wild talents that alter the blast. Infusions are already a game term for alchemists using a discovery to allow their extracts to be used by others. If there's an option to not have overlapping game terms that have completely different meanings, that will lead to less confusion in game as well as for new players figuring out the rules.I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of a better potential word than 'infusion', even though it is already in use. Enhancement is already taken for magical improvements. Augments/Augmentation? There are a few feats and features that use it, but not any class features that I can recall right off.
I would suggest matrix/pattern/lens.
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Does kinetic blade use the critical threat range of the weapon you create? Since it says you actually create a weapon, I would expect yes.It should say it keeps the blast's crit range somewhere in that second-to-last sentence. But you should be able to do things like Weapon Focus or (possibly if you aren't using a touch one) Power Attack.
So the ability creates a weapon made of your element, but uses neither the damage, nor threat range of the weapon you choose. So the choice of creating any one handed or light weapon is really just for cool points then? Does it affect the weapons finessability? Can it be used to trip or sunder like a normal weapon? Does it gain the normal weapon's special features (like trip, disarm or deadly)?
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Why should the attack rolls for the blast be dex based, it could easily be int based since this is a mental attack. This is especially true for the telekinesis spell wich uses mental stats for attack rolls and CMB checks. If your using int instead of dex then you would get better skill points.
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So the ability creates a weapon made of your element, but uses neither the damage, nor threat range of the weapon you choose. So the choice of creating any one handed or light weapon is really just for cool points then? Does it affect the weapons finessability? Can it be used to trip or sunder like a normal weapon? Does it gain the normal weapon's special features (like trip, disarm or deadly)?Does kinetic blade use the critical threat range of the weapon you create? Since it says you actually create a weapon, I would expect yes.It should say it keeps the blast's crit range somewhere in that second-to-last sentence. But you should be able to do things like Weapon Focus or (possibly if you aren't using a touch one) Power Attack.
It can definitely be used to trip or sunder, and if you make it light, you can finesse with it but not wield it in two hands. It doesn't grant any proficiencies, so the shape is mostly for cool factor. That said, this is a neat idea! I am strongly considering something special in there that lets you alter your kinetic blade to add weapon special qualities to it (like maybe adding a curving hook to add the disarm quality)
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I've looked it over a few times and have this question.
I am a Fire Kineticist and I encounter a lot of Fire Immune/resistant monsters. What are my options?
So far it seems to be "Pick up Expanded Element" for Air (Not lightning), Earth, Aether, or Water (not ice) if I am reading correctly?
From a character concept standpoint though if someone really wanted to JUST be fire, ice, or lightning they wouldn't have any method of overcoming resistance or immunities.
I just noticed that, despite what the class table says, the kineticist gets single wild talent. Period. The wild talent ability grants one wild talent at 1st level and nothing more - and the general convention is that written text trumps the table. Obviously the text should contain information about gaining more talents.
Also, the wild talent feature allows exchanging talents at 6th, 10th and 16th levels for talents of the same level... Does it refer to the same required level? To effective spell level? It will be hurtful for those that picked lower level abilities than the maximum level because as written they will be stuck with the level of the talent exchanged. For example 8th level telekineticist picked Light Touch because he knew he will need it... At 10th level he wants to exchange it for something else but is forced to pick 1st level talent.
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You can shoot fire out of your feet like rocket boots.
This class wins one entire internet.
I haven't thought about shooting fire out of your feet when I read that talent...
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I've looked it over a few times and have this question.
I am a Fire Kineticist and I encounter a lot of Fire Immune/resistant monsters. What are my options?
So far it seems to be "Pick up Expanded Element" for Air (Not lightning), Earth, Aether, or Water (not ice) if I am reading correctly?
From a character concept standpoint though if someone really wanted to JUST be fire, ice, or lightning they wouldn't have any method of overcoming resistance or immunities.
Going full fire is a powerful option in that blue flame has access to the pure flame infusion, the only way to ignore SR with a touch attack blast, and explosion, the highest-damage AoE substance infusion. The opportunity cost if you stay all fire is that some foes will have fire immunity. If they just have resistance, like say a demon's resist fire 10, you can probably make focused blasts (like with blue flame and maybe empower) and just not care too much. If they have immunity, you've met your opportunity cost. The good news is a lot of things immune to fire (though not all) have the fire subtype, which means you'll be able to mess with them by combining some form of concealment with your firesight.
Back to telekinetic blast. It should be able to use unattached items that are in your possession - as written you cannot use use it to throw stone that lies on your palm because it isn't unattended object.
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Just wondering... Would pushing HD to 1d10 and increasing the base attack bonus of kineticist make it too powerful? It feels incomplete with so many d8/3-4 BAB psychic classes, d6/1-2 BAB psychic class, but no d10/1 BAB class...
Is there a way to get the other blast from the elements like air and water?
Expanded Element wild talent on page 14.
Pure Flame Infusion is a 16th level talent 0_0 It comes online so late that it would barely make a difference.
Good point though on just going for tons of damage to overcome Fire Resist. Blue Flame Blast does a pretty good job of that.
Some sadness that fully immune creatures can just hand wave you. This is of course offset by the fact that a Kineticist can easily be packing two Elemental Foci by level 7, so it's a case of "character fluff" vs "optimization."
If there are any plans to make a single Elemental Focus archetype though I would request some extra thought go into questions like immunity and resistance.
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Fire so hot even immunity can't save you? Every substance has its limits.
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Yes, it's part of the cost of the blast. Of course by then, you could have enough form specializations to make it free.Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.
Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?
I see where burn comes into play for blast and defense wild talents, but what about the rest?
For example, what does it mean that the explosion infusion wild talent has a burn of 4? Every time the kineticist uses it?
I also agree that the wording in the burn section is confusing. I can find no reference in the talents or the infusions about the actual cost to infuse.
I am assuming that in order to use a infusion it is suppose to add the burn cost to your base power. For example I think to add a level 1 burning infusion to your blast costs 1 burn to your simple blast. Though it doesn't actually spell this out anywhere.
Perhaps change, "Infusions allow a kineticist to alter her kinetic blast to suit her whims. " to "Infusions allow a kineticist to alter her kinetic blast to suit her whims, by accepting the listed burn cost."
Burn ability include option of spending one move action to reduce burn of kinetic blast by 1. So practically you can spend a move and a swift action to fire two kinetic blasts at 18th level and retain standard action to do something that does not require any burn.Metakineses
- At 17th level, you actually have a cap of 5 burn/round, with a hard cap of 6 burn/round at 18th. The example of combining Quicken + Twin, using 7 burn, is not achievable unless there are feats/other that increases burn/round cap, or you select one of the 2...
Does this action reduce the total cost of all effects applied to your blast? Or is Metakinesis off-limits for this reduction. I can see it being off limits, otherwise at 5 you get a huge power jump (although I suppose that is par for the course with other classes)
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I'm looking at Foe Throw (p8; I keep losing it), and something is not quite right about it - the fortitude negates save.
I'm thinking that if this were to be used with say, a zombie, who has the undead trait of nothing that has a fortitude save affects them, they can just shrug off being telekinetically thrown.
Really? That doesn't sound right. If anything, they should be more vulnerable to being thrown around.
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Pure Flame Infusion is a 16th level talent 0_0 It comes online so late that it would barely make a difference.
Good point though on just going for tons of damage to overcome Fire Resist. Blue Flame Blast does a pretty good job of that.
Some sadness that fully immune creatures can just hand wave you. This is of course offset by the fact that a Kineticist can easily be packing two Elemental Foci by level 7, so it's a case of "character fluff" vs "optimization."
If there are any plans to make a single Elemental Focus archetype though I would request some extra thought go into questions like immunity and resistance.
Fire is the only one that is actually fully affected by the resistance too. If you go Terrakinetic then your damage is bludgeoning or Aerokinetic you can choose either bludgeoning or electricity.
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I'm looking at Foe Throw (p8; I keep losing it), and something is not quite right about it - the fortitude negates save.
I'm thinking that if this were to be used with say, a zombie, who has the undead trait of nothing that has a fortitude save affects them, they can just shrug off being telekinetically thrown.
Really? That doesn't sound right. If anything, they should be more vulnerable to being thrown around.
Hmm, I think it should have some phrasing indicating that it can affect critters like undead and constructs that are normally only affected if objects can be affected. Because totally!
I just want to clarify that the blasts count as magic for overcoming DR. Does that mean they're considered spells and just ignore DR or for instance a blast does 1d6+1 bludgeoning it overcomes DR/Magic and DR/Bludgeoning but not like DR/- or DR/Slashing.
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It can definitely be used to trip or sunder, and if you make it light, you can finesse with it but not wield it in two hands. It doesn't grant any proficiencies, so the shape is mostly for cool factor. That said, this is a neat idea! I am strongly considering something special in there that lets you alter your kinetic blade to add weapon special qualities to it (like maybe adding a curving hook to add the disarm quality)So the ability creates a weapon made of your element, but uses neither the damage, nor threat range of the weapon you choose. So the choice of creating any one handed or light weapon is really just for cool points then? Does it affect the weapons finessability? Can it be used to trip or sunder like a normal weapon? Does it gain the normal weapon's special features (like trip, disarm or deadly)?Does kinetic blade use the critical threat range of the weapon you create? Since it says you actually create a weapon, I would expect yes.It should say it keeps the blast's crit range somewhere in that second-to-last sentence. But you should be able to do things like Weapon Focus or (possibly if you aren't using a touch one) Power Attack.
Perhaps text like this could help clarify this ability then:
You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a unique non-reach one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure energy or elemental matter, or for telekineticists, you transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand. This ability counts as a weapon for the purposes of feats, such as Weapon Focus. Use this form infusion as part of an attack action or full-attack action to make melee attacks with this weapon, which deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast’s damage, including your Constitution modifier or half your Constitution modifier as normal, but not your Strength modifier), and disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist’s blast damage.
What happens if you wield a 1 handed Kinetic Blade in 2 hands? 1.5 CON modifier? What about Power Attack?
If wielding it 2 handed changes the damage, then why restrict it to only light or one handed weapons?
If wielding it 2 handed doesn't change the damage, then the light weapon is always superior (the only difference is finesse).
And "finally", can you mix Kinetic Blade with Two-Weapon Fighting?
1. 2 Kinetic blades?
2. 1 Kinetic Blade + Kinetic Fist?
3. 1 Kinetic Blade + 1 regular weapon?
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still a bit worried about the Burn thing, at lv 20 your dealing 20 damage to yourself each time you take a burn, that can really add up fast, if it was changed to like normal non-lethal damage that goes away in a hour after taking it, but keeping the burn points racked up would be pretty cool, then again could also go and give them d12 hit-dice for hp to make a balance to it instead of a D8, lol but either way awsome class, cant wait to see if there is like a darkness element in the final lol
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Wielding two-handed only changes Power Attack, as per Power Attack. That said, light weapon is always better for touch attacks, yes.
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I just want to clarify that the blasts count as magic for overcoming DR. Does that mean they're considered spells and just ignore DR or for instance a blast does 1d6+1 bludgeoning it overcomes DR/Magic and DR/Bludgeoning but not like DR/- or DR/Slashing.
They are spell-like abilities, and those bludgeoning ones do ignore SR. The example you gave of overcoming DR/Magic and DR/Bludgeoning but not slashing or — is exactly right.
still a bit worried about the Burn thing, at lv 20 your dealing 20 damage to yourself each time you take a burn, that can really add up fast, if it was changed to like normal non-lethal damage that goes away in a hour after taking it, but keeping the burn points racked up would be pretty cool, then again could also go and give them d12 hit-dice for hp to make a balance to it instead of a D8, lol but either way awsome class, cant wait to see if there is like a darkness element in the final lol
I'm waiting to see how this plays out in a game.
It could be fine, or the cost might be too steep, or maybe the Kineticist doesn't have enough HP?
If it's fine then just wording clarifications would be needed.
If the cost is too steep it could be reevaluated to half your level or something else.
If the problem is simply Kineticists not having enough HP then it could be approached with an upping in hit die to either D10 or D12 or Toughness as a bonus feat (probably at level 2-3 to avoid dippers)
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The Kineticist seems really good, mechanics, theme, all.
I would like to point though, some ideas:
1-Basic manipulation
The kineticist is taxed in a wild talent for basic element manipulation. He can fight with his element but can't move it. Those basic manipulations should be free, as they do not increase combat power very much and add enormously to the flavor.
2-Recovering from burn
The burn mechanic seems to be going on the right track, however, it should be recoverable. Not in a single combat, but within some minutes afterwards. In most fictions the character need just some moments of peace to recover from intense use of his powers.
3-Force blast
I would like to see the option of a direct force blast as a simple blast for the Telekineticist.
4-Utility
The class seems to be lacking skill points. This could be balanced with more utility from element manipulation.
5-Themes
I am hoping for unarmed combat, sword wielding, archetypes that could fit the theme for avatar, star wars, and other sources.
I've looked it over a few times and have this question.
I am a Fire Kineticist and I encounter a lot of Fire Immune/resistant monsters. What are my options?
So far it seems to be "Pick up Expanded Element" for Air (Not lightning), Earth, Aether, or Water (not ice) if I am reading correctly?
From a character concept standpoint though if someone really wanted to JUST be fire, ice, or lightning they wouldn't have any method of overcoming resistance or immunities.
Something to remember is that a good GM tailors encounters to her players. Using fire immune creatures as an occasional curve ball is understandable, but doing it with any sort of frequency is problematic. You don't commonly throw out stuff a party member can't hurt well. It ruins their fun.