I have alway thought that death is a bad idea. It causes alot of pain and heart ach and most people don't want to go. Even in pathfinder with a functioning afterlife it sucks. Even if you are good you loss all your memories and are merged with the stuff of the plan. really if you lose your memories can you really say you are still you?
So let's say someone in the pathfinder world says "Screw this dieing business everyone should be able to live as long as they want".
How should they go about it?
Of course I know the Inevitables are going to come and try and stop this, but well we would want to fight them off as well besides what are they going to do kill us? Mortals are already under a death sentence.
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It's not quite the same thing, but a society with salve of the second chance as it's foundation would be an interesting thought experiment.
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Setting specific?
Golarion: You need to make Asmodeus change his contract. As long as Asmodeus has the contract that will give him souls for all eternity...yeah some people can be "immortal" but eventually, you will die and your soul will most likely join the many suffering in the nine hells. Immortality wise, beside the Gods, I think Baba Yaga is the closest that we have to an immortal, since she stole her "fate".
Edit: Actually nvm with the death of Aroden...yeah even gods die.
Train everyone to be 20th level wizards.
Bribe Charon. Kill Charon. Create a Phylactery that takes the souls of all mortals that die and spits them out into new bodies, machines, constructs, or undead.
There are like....3-4....different kinds of outsider, all across the alignment spectrum, whose whole shtick is killing immortals.
Essentially, sure, you can mass produce immortality, but you can expect a whole host of inevitables, daemons, and psychopomps bursting down your door to shut you down. Throw in devils (due to aforementioned reasons, plus the fact that people signing contracts with devils definitely want a way out), and you have an entire corner of the alignment spectrum from the after life aiming for you.
Of course, you could technically say this is the modus operundi of the Whispering Way. They just believe only a few people of power an ambition should retain their free will while going on forever. Also, they don't care as much about the 'not rotting' part.
People keep breeding. The planet will overfill.
Terry Pratchett had a whole novel about a world where death wasn't operating, it wasn't pretty.
Lotta scifi out there where clinical immortality has been invented and the societal implications, Altered Carbon is the only one that springs to mind at the moment.
As for how? Mass production demands something outside the rules, like killing the god of death or hijacking Charon's boat.
Golarion is not the only world and space and dimension travel is a lot easier in pathfinder then our world. Many of the planes are infinite.
There are like....3-4....different kinds of outsider, all across the alignment spectrum, whose whole shtick is killing immortals.
Essentially, sure, you can mass produce immortality, but you can expect a whole host of inevitables, daemons, and psychopomps bursting down your door to shut you down. Throw in devils (due to aforementioned reasons, plus the fact that people signing contracts with devils definitely want a way out), and you have an entire corner of the alignment spectrum from the after life aiming for you.
Of course, you could technically say this is the modus operundi of the Whispering Way. They just believe only a few people of power an ambition should retain their free will while going on forever. Also, they don't care as much about the 'not rotting' part.
There is they spell Reincarnate of course you would need enough level 9+ witches to service the whole population and the spell and curing the negative levels is expensive, but it could become something like paying for health care. After all you can't take it with you.
Maybe you could make some magic items to cast the spell to make it more available.
As for fighting off all those outsiders than sounds like a cool campaign. Maybe I should write it up. It sounds like a decent challenge foe even a mythic level 20 party.
Mechanically speaking there are a few ways to attain immortality. Most of those options are a little on the boring side if you ask me, coming down to gaining enough levels in certain classes or changing your creature-type. These options tend to lack the suspense that'll fuel a campaign purely on their own merit. Attaining, maintaining and defending an external source of immortality is more likely to provide a satisfying story in its own right. The Sun Orchid Elixir, for instance, serves this purpose excellently precisely because it isn't a one-and-done deal, after a while you'll need a new dose, maintaining perpetual dependency. In addition its extremely famous and rare, allowing for plenty of angles to generate conflict, its process and creator are shrouded in mysteries, allowing you plenty of space for your own input. Best of all, it has so little mechanical effect for such a storied item you can actually start using it in your campaign from the word go at level 1, if you want, without disrupting the balance of the game.
The idea of being chased throughout existence by those who wish to deny you prolonging yours certainly is exciting and something you should definitely use. However, I feel you'd be missing out if you'd start the campaign off that way.
I have more to say on this very interesting subject but, alas, I must go!
Oddly enough, undoing death seems to require fewer (and lower-level) resources than preventing it. But as for immortality: my favourite scheme remains Binding: Minimus Containment. Stack up on items to cast Magic Jar from, and you can even remain part of society.
This could be done on a level 1 Commoner if need be, provided someone forks over the dough...
isnt there the immortality wizard discovery and the philosopher's stone alchemist discovery to add to the list?
admittedly they come in late, but the alchemist can crank out stones every month.
The purpose of a Binding is to keep you confined The inside of a Minimus is pratically it's own little demi-plane. I would not allow someone to Magic Jar from the inside of it.Oddly enough, undoing death seems to require fewer (and lower-level) resources than preventing it. But as for immortality: my favourite scheme remains Binding: Minimus Containment. Stack up on items to cast Magic Jar from, and you can even remain part of society.
This could be done on a level 1 Commoner if need be, provided someone forks over the dough...
Sounds like a house rule to me. There's nothing anywhere in the rules that says it creates a demi-plane, anything similar to one, or that the captive is even unable to take actions from within his/her confinement (though I do believe it would break line of effect, and possibly line of sight*, to the outside world).
* Depending on which object you are held in.
The purpose of a Binding is to keep you confined The inside of a Minimus is pratically it's own little demi-plane. I would not allow someone to Magic Jar from the inside of it.Oddly enough, undoing death seems to require fewer (and lower-level) resources than preventing it. But as for immortality: my favourite scheme remains Binding: Minimus Containment. Stack up on items to cast Magic Jar from, and you can even remain part of society.
This could be done on a level 1 Commoner if need be, provided someone forks over the dough...
Sounds like a house rule to me. There's nothing anywhere in the rules that says it creates a demi-plane, anything similar to one, or that the captive is even unable to take actions from within his/her confinement (though I do believe it would break line of effect, and possibly line of sight*, to the outside world).
* Depending on which object you are held in.
Basically you're 1 inch tall and inside a jar. I can see a lot of ways one could continue to interact with the world. SLA's not being least among them. Just nothing that requires line of effect.
SOrcerer casts unseen servant to carry him around. Summons creatures, telekinesis, etc. Just cant use anything that requires LOE or material components.
Edit: Do you think you could open the jar and drop things inside?
You're not inside a jar. You're inside a hedged prison. the binding spells are there to confine an entity, not enable it to interact with the outside world. Spells, nor speech, can cross it. Nor can it be "opened" unless broken first.
There are different ways you can use this spell. One of them is a hedge prison and another is minimus containment. You might want to reread the spell description. Linked above by VRMH.
Minimus Containment: The subject is shrunk to a height of 1 inch or less and held within some gem, jar, or similar object. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while contained, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.
WITHIN A GEM/JAR/OBJECT. Which means that you have no line of effect to anything outside it.You're not inside a jar. You're inside a hedged prison. the binding spells are there to confine an entity, not enable it to interact with the outside world. Spells, nor speech, can cross it. Nor can it be "opened" unless broken first.There are different ways you can use this spell. One of them is a hedge prison and another is minimus containment. You might want to reread the spell description. Linked above by VRMH.
Minimus Containment: The subject is shrunk to a height of 1 inch or less and held within some gem, jar, or similar object. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while contained, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.
I can read. Also I said a couple of times that you'd need to use things without line of effect. Careful with the caps lock. Wouldn't want to break the community guidelines.
Edit: interacting with the outside world would require some creativity. As stated.
Edit2: Spell intent and spells as written are not the same thing. Clearly this is an attempt to bypass intent and work with as written.
Bear in mind that Immortality doesn't equate to Invulnerabilty, death is still going to happen but at a slightly reduced rate, in fact very few people die of old age, it's usually just a contributing factor. It would certainly destabilize everything though if it got distributed everywhere.
Demiplanes are the way to do this, but after a lifetime you're then trapped in the demiplane. I like the thought of people going to 'upload' themselves into the Minimus. Or a villain forcibly 'saving' people from death.
Lich or Vampire are definitely the ways to go.
Reincarnation or getting everyone over to a timeless plane is probably easiest.
Creating enough rods of security would work.
Willing creatures could join with a tear of burning flame for immortality(until they explode and become a shining child).
I'd probably just create a major artifact based on an argental font that causes those who drink from it to cease aging for a year.
Timeless plane + astral projection is a good way to go.
Two words: Soulbound Mannequin
True beauty is this only uses part of the soul, so you're less likely to have an army of psychopomps and inevitables coming down on you.
Admittedly at 8500gp (cost) each it's expensive.
Even the (lesser) Dolls cost 2300gp.
On the other hand this would be a scary army to fight, you might actually stand a chance if the various afterlives decide to launch an attack.
And, given time, they could eventually pay it off. Heck, with 10HD and a craft skill they'd be better than they were. They don't need to sleep or eat, so if they earned 20gp a week they could pay it off in about 8 years if there was no interest. with 5% about 12 years. With 10% 21 years; so a bit like a home loan.
Hmmm - arguably you could say the Soul Focus (500gp) is the necessary bit. That could allow you to 'store' souls until you can upgrade them.
Edit: Damn. Now I have a character concept.
Obviously these schemes only hold up as long as your DM is willing to hold back the Inevitable/Psychopomp Army, but the implications are not really what's being discussed here.
The topic is asking for ways to mass produce the immortality, and nothing else. What kind of PCs would we be if we actually considered the consequences of our actions?
As with all good plots, it starts with a mad scientist.
"Eureka!" he cries, having been brilliant and tenacious enough to discover a cure for mortality.
Unfortunately, unlike his predecessors who also walked the path of chymically augmented power, he dumped Wisdom had not the common sense to keep it to himself.
He found the cure, and he taught it to others. And made more. And those people taught it to others (aside: can make for a great side-plot/source of recurring creatures and enemies where some less scrupulous Alchemists are creating the Immortality Elixir equivalent of moonshine. It works...side effects may vary), and also made more, and taught it others after them.
Soon the cure for death spread...but the rest of humanity's ills stayed, and the rest of the cosmology were at best looking upon the scene in exasperation, and at worst plotting to end this rime against nature, by force if necessary.
Of course, perhaps give it a few hundred years to really set in before the gods and such notice it and start mobilizing armies to make it work.
Because after a few centuries of no longer having to worry about death, other great discoveries were made, great heroes continued to be born, hone their skills, and stop aging in the prime of their lives, benefiting from both experience and youth.
Everybody from the past 4-5 generations have got a few class levels under their belt, or better.
The gods are coming to correct a mistake, but humanity won't be so ready to go back to the Dark Ages of dying after a set period of years.
Obviously these schemes only hold up as long as your DM is willing to hold back the Inevitable/Psychopomp Army, but the implications are not really what's being discussed here.
The topic is asking for ways to mass produce the immortality, and nothing else. What kind of PCs would we be if we actually considered the consequences of our actions?
If I understand my planer cosmology correctly they are not actually endless. The materials or middles planes are formed from the raw essences derived from the inner planes or elemental planes.
Theses essences are refined in mortal to produce souls and when the moral dies this refined essence is absorbed into one of the heavens or hells otherwise known as the outer planes.
So therefor the Outer planes are not in fact endless they are simply the accumulated essence of mortals dieng since the formation of the material plane. The material planes has been around for a very long time so that is quite alot, but no unlimited and if people stop dieing then the flow would be cut off.
in D&D 3.5's Van richtens arsenal (a ravenloft side guide 'which i have in hardcopy) there is the higher alchemy path. among other things that it let you do should you invest in them, you could create an alchemical child (based on the original person race) or enlightend child (same as above only with added powers such as acid blood and ability to morph). they would be constract clones of some1. and if you also add a difrent alchmical proses that drain the soul from a body. you can inject it into the alchemical clone to make an ever "living" person. the draining of the soul would lose a level like normal resoraction. but besidethat 1 alchemist with enough resourcers could make a hole vilige of clones that might not eve nbe aware that they are not the same as ther were before. (i belive also that some other alchemical discovery alowed for a nondetaction efet to be added - for them pesky invatables etc.
It seems like the core mechanic's very well support a rage against the outer plans stop people from dieing sort of game. It's a shame I am having a hard time thinking of high level game ideas.