Sources: Core and APG only. No free traits.
In Runelords, my cleric (Iomedae, Heroism/Tactics, melee focus) was the group's healer and tank. She died during the fight with "Big M" at the end of part one. Rest of the group are:
Gnome Sorc - Elemental (Fire)
Elf Alchemist - Archer/Bomber
Elf Ranger - Archer
Dwarf Barbarian - SMASH
As you can see, the group lacks two things: Healing and enough melee guys to protect the archers/caster. My cleric covered both good enough, but now she's quite dead and I need a new character. Preferably one, who can do the same without feeling too similar. So I'd like to avoid another battle cleric or a melee Oracle.
Any ideas?
When you say healer. Do you meen someone to hold the wands, some one to take Care of conditions or in combat healing?
I suggest summoner and some wands. Dont get Hung up on the party needing some special roles filled.
Paladins work well in this campaign and can do healing (there are guides for optimizing healing for Paladins), there are also a lot of evil things to smite.
Warpriest can also do healing and fight melee, I quite like warpriest of Pharasma with duel wielded daggers.
Both of these are weaker healers than clerics particularly at higher levels but can handle out of combat healing with wands of CLW.
Druids can also heal , slightly worse than clerics and with their animal companion and shapeshifting can handle melee as well.
Shamen may be able to heal but I have not looked closely at the class.
Having just read your original post properly forget Warpriest you really have choice of Oracle, Paladin, Druid or another cleric. Druid and Paladin will play differently than cleric but are weaker healers
EDIT
My players got through this campaign up to about level 13 with all healing via wands and no cleric so you can manage without a specialist healer
(2 Paladins, Synthesist summoner, Wizard, Slayer)
Don't really care about roles. But the group in its current form falls apart quickly when the barb goes down and the enemies get too close to the ranged guys.
A "healer" is someone who can heal hit point damage and conditions. Preferably also ability damage/drain and negative levels. So access to (Lesser) Restoration is a big plus. Wouldn't hurt if that access comes before level 13 (looking at the paladin).
Wands are a nice addition, but if you really need healing in combat, they just don't cut it. Also, even CLW gets expensive quickly when everyone starts to have more maximum HP and needs more and more healing. not to mention healing per wands takes forever.
Summoner is more or less banned in our group.
Never played a Paladin. As far as I cna tell, they are great at tanking but barely have enough healing for what I want to do. Mercies cover some conditions but restoration comes VERY late.
Oath of Vengeance and Infernal Healing are not available. Neither is Summoner.
As for what I enjoy most: Versatile characters. Hybrids like battle clerics/oracles, Eldritch Knights and the like. I wouldn't play a pure fighter or rogue if I can avoid it. Pure casters are good, too, but I tend to be overly stingy with limited resources like spells so having an alternative option (like a pointy stick) is good for me.
Paladins might have just enough options to be enjoyable. Still not sure they have enough healing.
How about a bad touch cleric? Heavily armored so I can stand on the frontline. Would still be a cleric, but different.
Let me suggest an Oracle with the Battle or Metal Mystery. They get quite a few abilities to power up the melee prowess, and with selecting a few of the right spells known you have similar capabilities for "healing" as the cleric.
It's essentially a cleric anyways, though I think they're much better at melee with the right mystery selection.
Edit: Whoops! Missed the line about no oracles. My bad!
Sources: Core and APG only. No free traits.
In Runelords, my cleric (Iomedae, Heroism/Tactics, melee focus) was the group's healer and tank. She died during the fight with "Big M" at the end of part one. Rest of the group are:
Gnome Sorc - Elemental (Fire)
Elf Alchemist - Archer/Bomber
Elf Ranger - Archer
Dwarf Barbarian - SMASHAs you can see, the group lacks two things: Healing and enough melee guys to protect the archers/caster. My cleric covered both good enough, but now she's quite dead and I need a new character. Preferably one, who can do the same without feeling too similar. So I'd like to avoid another battle cleric or a melee Oracle.
Any ideas?
Well that certainly makes it difficult, and I'm assuming that the GM just won't allow you to make another cleric...
I'll go with the rest and say to go Paladin next. Lay On Hands is going to be your big healing ability (which makes self healing pretty useful) and your spells and auras will serve more as a buffer. A lot of times you're immune to secondary effects, like disease, mind-control, etc. so your utility/heal spells can be reserved for your party members.
Archetypes may help put you in the niche that you desire at the cost of some abilities; unfortunately, a lot of what makes the Paladin extremely powerful is in splat books. On the plus side, about 80% of the crap you fight is evil, meaning as long as you got Smite you can contribute effectively in combat for simply being a Paladin.
IDK what point buy you guys use, or if you guys roll stats, or whatever. But with a 20 point buy, you can have a decent Strength and a fairly high Charisma before racials, those stats of which are your bread and butter for your class.
Dwarven cleric in stone plate makes a pretty good tank!
Bonus you can keep the same flavor of your original cleric!
"All clerics err battle clerics yah pansy!"
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Oradin is a great choice as you mix stronger melee with action economy effective healing.
Since both classes are Cha based you don't suffer much from multi-classing. I'd prolly stick to human or half-orc (orc ferocity is good with healing.)
If that doesn't float your boat look at a scarred witch doctor. It's a con based caster witch with lots of strength and if you take healing hex not a terrible healer.
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+1 to the Oradin concept. You can throw life links on the party, heal them automatically without interrupting your fighting, and heal yourself via lay on hands as a swift action.
Half-elves make awesome Oradins, as they get access to the elves FCBs for both Paladins and Oracles, making them more powerful healers.
And both straight Palading and Life Oracle can be found in the books you mentioned.
Hmm
It seems like you've already got some healing, with the Alchemist and Ranger, so you don't need to go overboard. A very different Cleric could work, casting focused but with really high concentration checks to be able to tank.
Paladin works well (and their healing grows somewhat exponentially - don't worry about that). Restoration comes late, but Lesser Restoration comes very cheap and early - plus can use scrolls of Restoration by 10th without issue.
Bard could work very well - hardest aspect is the 'tank' bit. If you go light on Charisma (14ish), you should be able to have the str/dex/con to tank with some decent armor (mithril breastplate + additional traits(armor expert), or elven chain). Also the buff of a bard helps reduce the need for healing.
Summoner makes for a very good tank. Preventing damage is usually better than healing it.
A biped eidolon with Skilled(Use Magic Device) and a wand of healing magic can be tank and healer. With skills and bonuses, it can have a +12 to UMD at level 1. Of course, this depends on the availability of wands.
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I'll also +1 Oradin - being a life battery + evil smiter is pretty sweet, and should play sufficiently differently from a channeler/cleric to feel new.
Alternately... hmm... You could try a shaman. They're quite versatile full casters, and I'm sure it's possible to build one for melee/healing duty. They don't get spontaneous heals or big boosts to combat, but they've got 3/4 BAB and medium armor, access to the Life and Battle spirits, hexes, and spells like Thorn Body and Nauseating Trail that can make them quite noxious to deal with in combat.
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I would recommend Oradin or Reach Cleric.
Oradin as a Paladin/Life Oracle is probably one of the best combat healers in the game. Life Link from oracle and lay on hands from paladin gives you swift group healing. Paladin 2 / Oracle 4 and then choose which way to go. The Oracle 4 only reduces BAB by 1 and gives you an opportunity to pick up Lesser Restoration sooner than a straight Paladin would. Might want to look at Hospitaler as an archetype for possible ways to improve the healing abilities.
In PFS I'm currently running a reach cleric, Omar who uses a Glaive (favored weapon of Shelyn). He has taken Selective Channeling and Combat Reflexes for feats. Same build can work with a Longspear if you don't like that deity.
Yes, a cleric with Combat Reflexes. It allows an Attack of Opportunity even when flat footed. If you really want to prevent people from getting past you, this is the way to do it. Cast bless, put your hands back on the weapon for the AoO. Can melee from second rank if you want.
It is a little early to say, but seems to be working pretty well so far.
Another option no one thinks too much about... you could go with a Summoning/channeling Druid.
Take one of the druid domains that gives you a familiar, preferably hawk since it flies. Have your flier perched on your melee tank (you can have a familiar deliver touch spells which is GREAT for a healer.) You can also take Adept channel for some quick utility channeling for out of combat, it is worth a feat as it scales.
Want your animal companion back? Ask if your GM is cool with the the Sylvan/Eldritch HEritage chain
Could just go Life Oracle, over heal any damage the others are taking, pick up Selective Channeling so you can aoe heal from low level without healing your foes. Too bad you can't pick up Summon Good Monster, and Sacred Summons feats but at least you can still pick up Summon Monster spells, and summoned monsters gain a template, if your good having a summon with 5 HD who can smite a tough enemy can be pretty sweet.
Or you could go Druid, focus your main on healing (although less healing than a cleric / oracle), let your animal companion focus on tanking.
Lion Shaman (Druid Archetype) is from APG, since Boon Companion is off limits to you then I guess your best bet is to take the companion, which with your ability to buff it can act as a pretty decent tank, while you heal. If you could take boon companion then I would recommend taking the Animal Domain so you get both a domain and your companion. Also as a Lion Shaman you can Summon Nature's Ally a feline with a standard instead of 1 round, still not as good as a summon monsters felines but oh well, at least its a standard action, a spontaneous ability, and the temp hp's are neat.
+1 Paladin, don't worry about combat healing. As a Paladin you should be doing enough damage to draw some of the aggression off of the Barbarian.
The sorcerer should be summoning if more melee density is needed to keep enemies away.
I've never played one, or even in a group that had one, but I have heard good things about Druids as healers. You can use your animal companion to tank by choosing something large and strong. Choose spells that buff your companion (as well as heal the party) and the Boon Companion feat. Now you can tank and heal and be in two places at once.
Thanks for the input so far!
Oradin: I don't like multiclassing just to get some specific low-level abilities. So Oradin isn't really for me.
*Paladin: As said, late Restoration hurts. Also might not be versatile enough for me to enjoy for a long time (here's hoping my next character lasts longer).
Bard: Too little individual power.
*Inquisitor: Great class, great in melee, awesome versatility. Still not enough healing, I think (especially the late-ish restoration).
*Oracle: I'm not ruling it out completely. Just don't want a melee oracle right after a melee cleric. Maybe a summoner/caster oracle would work. It still got armor and a shield so I could at least block the shortest path to the ranged guys.
*Cleric: I could just play another cleric, I guess. Just going from one battle cleric to another seems boring. Also makes the character death somewhat pointless. So it would have to be somethig different. Necromancer is not happening, though. Whole group is good.
*Druid: Nice class and one I've wanted to try for some time. I can never decide what to do, when I try to build one, though. My favorite idea is a blight druid with the darkness domain. Looks fun but it's not exactly stellar at healing or melee. The Lion Shaman idea doesn't sound too bad. Standard action summons are sweet.
Those with an * are still being considered. Yeah, I know that's pretty much all of them, hence my difficulties to pick one.
Any further input is appreciated!
Could just go Life Oracle, over heal any damage the others are taking, pick up Selective Channeling so you can aoe heal from low level without healing your foes.
Life Oracle rules. Not only Selective channel, but quick channel later.
Hospitaller paladin is good.
Guys? Look, the subject of in-combat healing is a contentious one. Some groups tables need and use it, other's dont. Neither is wrong. It's a playstyle difference. My table uses it, so does James Jacobs.
So, since he know his table/group, and knows he need in combat healing, give advice based on that, please.
It's not so much that I "need" in combat healing. But I like being able to use it if need be. With only 2 character absorbing the brunt of the enemies' attacks, the HP of me and the barbarian often dropped rather quickly. In those situations, Wands are almost useless.
Also I hate being stuck with negative levels or ability drain so Restoration is another important point for me. I'll ask the Alchemist if he has any plans on taking Infuson. Would allow me to feel more comfortable about picking a non or late Restoration class.
What level are you starting at? You could multiclass Inquisitor/Monk. Bane at Inq 5 can help make up for some of the monk's flurry progression you'd lose while Judgments and swapping out teamwork feats at will could certainly help also.
I think picking somthing like a controllier/buffer wizard May be a good idea. It is among the most powerfull characters. And the protection and buffs you can give the Barbarian May very well be worth more than in combat healing. With Core and APG. You can take one of the 3 big schools.
With clouds, walls and things like haste and heroism no one of importance will miss a tanky priest.
Conditions will be a problem but the other party Members already have that covered if you let them.
Though I feel Paladins are definitely on the versatile side. Status resistances/immunity, extremely high saves, martial options for ranged or melee, swift action self-heals, status effect removal. Divine casting and smite is just gravy.
With "versatile" I mean having lots of different options for my action each round. Paladins are powerful, but many of their abilities are passive (auras, saves) or just a few trick again and again (Smite and LoH are pretty impressive tricks, admittedly).
Life Oracle will definitely improve survival chances (though I'm in favor of superior tactics as well). However their #1 job is healing. Their #2 job is healing. You don't have much room (other than buffing/support) for other roles such as say tanking as you'll be far too busy healing all the damage the party is taking.
I actually think Life is the most versatile Mystery. It gives you everythign you could need to keep a group alive, so you can focus your feats, ability scores and spell choices on anything you want to do.
@CKorfmann: I'm starting at 5. No free traits. 20 pt buy, but only one score below 10 allowed and not below 8 (before racial mods). So it's more like a 17 pt buy.
I'm not touching melee monks with a 10-foot pole. And Inquisitor might just barely have enough Heailing to cover my needs. I'm not going to make it worse by multi-classing.
A paladin will serve this role very nicely. Once you have Power attack you can swing away right alongside the barbarian.
For healing you can take Extra lay-on hands feats to bulk up your reserve, greater and Ultimate mercy will let you heal even more and then raise the dead at the small price of a temporary negative level. If you optimize like crazy you can complete this ability by level 7 (requires cha 20). Fey foundling will let you last forever on the frontline.
Str 10, con 14, dex 14, int 18(stat increase here) wis 12, cha 8,
Wizard level 5 is a great place for a controller/ buffer wizard to start. Load up on haste, heroism, create pit, Stone call, and Fog cloud and the like.
Why is your 20 point buy more like a 17 point buy?
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Here's another vote for either an Oradin or a reach cleric. Some comments about these options:
Oradin - I don't like multiclassing either. I'll gladly make an exception for the Oradin, though, because it's such a beautiful synergistic fit. I've GMd for several Oradins, and they really get the job done. It's not so much that the Oradin is strong (although it is), it's that the Oradin makes a great frontline tank while providing substantial in-combat healing at the same time.
Reach Cleric - While the reach cleric is a type of battle cleric, I think you'll find it plays quite different from your battle cleric of Iomedae. RIP. You'll have a lot of tactical opportunities to shine, and you'll be especially adept at keeping heat off the squishies. If your Barbarian is of the 'loose cannon' sort who will 'instantly rush every foe without considering other tactical options' then either do not play a reach cleric, else teach your barbarian basic tactics. If you want a powerful reach cleric look no farther than worship of Erastil, with the Growth and Feather domains. Also ideal for Sacred Summons. The Growth domain gets you swift action enlarge person, which is the shortcut to martial prowess. The Feather domain gets you a full animal companion, which comes with some exotic yet highly effective options. The combination makes you exceptionally effective versus Large foes, which are quite common in this AP. This type of battle cleric should never have to eat a full attack, so has a lot of survivability.
The fact that your Barbarian is a Dwarf provides extra synchronicity with a reach cleric who has the growth domain. So long as the dwarf stays adjacent to you, your enlarged reach cleric can take AoOs over his head at 15' and 20'. This is a great combination I've seen work really well lots of times. This formation is also ideal for protecting the squishies.
I almost suggested Life Oracle but:
1) OP said he didn't want another Cleric/Oracle.
He actually said didn't want a battle cleric / melee oracle, which is why I suggested Life, they are not battle oriented, then he could use summon monster to have a battle role as well.
I'm with you Blave on the Multi Classing, as nice as it is to get the extra beef up on saves, and getting a few nice boons from various classes, having to wait to get the upper abilities from your main / chosen class sucks.
Cap. Darling: For the Wizard suggestion: I've been thinking about a wizard-based MT for some time. GM is fine with early entry via Trickery domain, so I could go Cle 1/Wiz 3/MT 1. If I survive one more level, I guess I'd have some healing and could "tank" via summon monster and battlefield control.
The 17 was a typo. Meant 18. I got two less points to push around since I cant dump my dumpstat to 7.
@Magda Luckbender: I still prefer full spellcasting via oracle or full paladin progression for LoH and smite over the Oradin build.
The reach cleric is not too bad, but somehow the idea was never really appealing to me.
Here's a vote against Oradin. There's a lot of hype for the class, but without access to Fey Foundling, or something else to boost the amount of healing you get from lay on hands, it falls a little short.
My vote would be for a Druid. You don't get restoration, but the spell list is extremely versatile. In addition, if you go Lion Shaman, there is a cat on levels 3-6 of Summmon Nature's Ally, and after that you can start applying the advanced, giant, or both templates to your Dire Tigers. A team of animals like that is really good at keeping grunts off of your archers. Plus you can either take a large cat companion or a domain (the heroism subdomain is pretty darn good if you're looking to buff up your allies).
If you go for an animal companion, the easy way to build a druid is to just go full caster. You want high WIS, DEX, and CON, (Dwarves are great at this), and you want to stay out of combat as much as possible by being a bird or air elemental with wild shape. Let your cat army do all the muscle work while you fly around and heal/buff/summon.
Druid is solid when summon focused. Make it a Samsaran into Paladin and you can get your restores and such very early.
I'd also suggest, since you enjoy cross class, going with a Cleric/ Empyreal Sorcerer Mystic Theurge, focusing on Cleric with summons. This will give you lots to do and cast and let you tank with standard action summons. Try this only if you GM allows you to start MT at 3 via Aasimar or one of the other paths.
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Looking at your group you have 4 hammers. Your going to need an arm and anvil. I suggest mystic the urge
Yep. Fruian did a basic Forge of Combat Analysis.
Anvil = Battlefield Control
Arm = Support & Healing
The ideal well-balanced group covers all three primary roles.
Gnome Sorc - Elemental (Fire) = Hammer or Anvil, depending on tactical approach (e.g. Does or does not use Battlefield Control)
Elf Alchemist - Archer/Bomber = Hammer
Elf Ranger - Archer = Hammer
Dwarf Barbarian - SMASH = Hammer
This party has either 4 Hammers or 3 Hammers and an Anvil. This depends on the Sorcerer's play style. As the OP observed, they clearly need a Support PC who can fill the Arm role. If the Fire Sorcerer mostly does HP damage, without regard to tying down foes, then they also need an Anvil.
Good choices to cover these roles:
Arm & Anvil - An Early Entry Mystic Theurge is an ideal Arm/Anvil combination. If the Fire Sorcerer is not handling Battlefield Control this will perfectly fill the gap. Regardless, this is a great choice.
Arm - Reach Cleric - OP said this doesn't interest him. It's a powerful, highly optimized approach that fits the needed role, but it's not what the OP wants. This approach is best suited to players who really like tactics.
Anvil & Arm - Witch
DocShock is right that Oradin doesn't work with Core Only, it really needs Fey Foundling to work. Druid would be an excellent choice, since they are great CRB only.
Can't tell if the Sorcerer is a Hammer or an Anvil. He does have Grease and Glitterdust so at least he has some other tricks than setting everything ablaze. But I don't know where he's goind from there. He probably doesn't know himself. The other players don't seem to plan ahead much.
As you can see, the group lacks two things: Healing and enough melee guys to protect the archers/caster...I'd like to avoid another battle cleric or a melee Oracle."Hey, I'd like to play a wizard, but I don't want to use magic."
Sorry, I know it's more nuanced than that but it's the first thing I thought of. If you want reliable status-effect removal you gotta be a full caster or have some really impressive Spell-like abilities that remove Mummy Rot and Curses. If you want to do melee, you need somebody who wears heavy armor or has some impressive armor-like abilities (monk, for example).
Well, if there was an obvious answer to my predicament, I wouldn't have needed to ask you guys ;)
I can always go the "easy" way and play what's "best" for the needs of the party. That would be another Melee Cleric or Oracle. Maybe a paladin. Everything beyond that will have to make do with less healing and/or melee.
If I can't find an satisfying alternative, I might just go melee Oracle in the end. Maybe a Life Oracle/Hloy Vindicator or something like that. Still doesn't hurt to ask if someone has another idea that I might have missed. Like the Lion druid. Not that much healing but with standard action summons (and wildshape in a pinch) definitely able to protect the ranged guys.
In the end, I must decide for myself. But I like to know my options, hence the question :)
I feel your best choice is a Battle Oracle. I know you would prefer to avoid melee oracles, but really, this guy rocks at both healing/status removal (with the right choice of spells), can spam dispel magic and other utility spells when needed (think resist energy communal), he is a full divine caster and can also dish considerable damage, while not being bound by a specific alignment / deity. He also has a lot of nice revelations that are very useful in combat. It's one of the best classes I've ever played.
Lion Shaman Druid Works. Might I suggest a few feats can get you the healing you crave?
Go Human, take the alt race trait that gets you 3 skill foci.
Feats
1st level Skill Focus: Knowledge Nature, (whatever Feat)
3rd level Eldritch Heritage- Arcane (take hawk familiar netting a total of +5 to perception and look a flying delivery system for touch spells.)
5th level Adept Channel
5th level Select Channel
7th level Extra Channel
You can mix Augment Summoning in there and delay some of the channel progression. Certainly I'd take natural spell. The main thing is you can gain some channeling and another touch spell delivery system.
Strong summoner/healer with a animal companion is an excellent mix that meets all your needs. As a bonus you gain a boss Perception score and at 8th level can make that even stronger.
Since you are limited to the APG and Core:
Look at Bard: Sandman, Arcane Duelist, and savage skald all have interesting abilities and can also be front liners with healing.
As far as removing conditions, bards will have high UMDs, look to magical devices to provide this, or scrolls. Things like that aren't going to need to be cured every round.
the PrC Battle Herald is also a very interesting build, but you loose spell progression.
if your going for druid, which i would suggest equally or higher than bard; check out Urban druid, it has some amusing abilities that are off the beaten path, like thousands faces at 6th level (when its more useful and fun) and check out the ability to use either repose or community domains.
It;s draw back is it doesn't get an animal companion, which helps out greatly on the front line, but check out those two domains you could choose from before making a judgement on that.
additionally, as a final choice, looking into the Rage prophet path: At first concept it feels/sounds like a battle cleric, but it plays very differently,
A) start out as a oracle of nature (similar in many aspects to a druid) natures whispers, life leach and bonded mount if you want it. Then take enough barbarian to get into RP…if you take bonded mount, you can take rage powers that work with your mount…its fun.
B) Start out as an oracle of bones (haunted of course) which in and of its self its off beat and fun from an unusual stand point., then PrC into Rage Prophet capitalizing on the whole spooky spirit guide theme. Combat witch doctor… not to mention if you don't like level drain, you can take a mystery that makes you immune to it! …although it seems you would need to heal yourself with negative energy :/
I'm not a Skald, but I play one in Iron Gods.
No one, and I mean NO ONE in the party ever wants or chooses the inspired rage.
OMG -1 AC totally Biff! and they shun it like the plague.
(that and you'd think they al want to use cha, int or Dex based skills DURING combat)
They are free to drop in and out of the song as they please but NOPE, don't want it.
Bards are Heroes, Skalds are an annoying nuisance.
Don't take skald.
I can second that skald can have problems. I see one in my party. We have two rangers and a paladin, and they go, "but what if I want to use a spell?" since they have immediate action spells. So depends on if your party will actually use it or not if it's good.
I can second that skald can have problems. I see one in my party. We have two rangers and a paladin, and they go, "but what if I want to use a spell?" since they have immediate action spells. So depends on if your party will actually use it or not if it's good.
immediate action spells?
Paladin's Sacrifice, is an immediate action spell