What prestige classes (if any) do you think should make a comeback?

[Jason Nelson]

That's the question in this week's Wormy's Wednesday What?

Which prestige classes you miss from the old 3.0/3.5 days. PrCs have kind of gone by the wayside in Pathfinder. Should any of them make a comeback, or are they better off dead? Which ones should make a comeback?

[Eltacolibre]

The dungeonlord (Dungeonscape) is easily my favorite prc from 3.5. Yeah it's a npc prestige class but damn isn't it fun. Nowadays, can just add the element of the prestige class for custom dungeonlord monster or with mythic powers I guess on a mythic monster.

Beast heart adept, another prc from dungeonscape, a prc to get magic beast animal companions? Hell yeah! I suppose nowadays the magical beasts animal companions have been replaced with summoner and their eidolons.

Force Missile Mage, used to be one of my favorite, just for the look of it but well, I noticed that mythic magic missile is basically a mini force missile mage.

Fochlucan Lyrist...Bards with 9th level wizard spell? Oh my. Of course mostly like this class because it is quite ridiculous.

Chameleon, just the idea of switching classes everyday was pretty neat in my book.

Ur-Priest: As ridiculously broken this prc was, it still had great flavor imo. Someone stealing the power from the gods.

[Kelvar Silvermace]

There are a number of base (20 level) classes I'd like to see, but I'm fairly satisfied with the prestige classes we have. (The ones Paizo reworked are much better now, IMO).

[mswbear]

Ur-Priest would be good

Honestly, I want the Blood Magus to come back. It wasn't the best but it certainly wasn't terrible. It had a ton of flavor and some really cool abilities. I think with all of the bloodline stuff that Pathfinder has going on it could totally be reworked and made amazing while keeping some of the cool abilities and flavor.

[Orthos]

Converting my favorites among 3.5 prestige classes into PF Archetypes - especially if I can find a way to do it that allows an archetype to be taken by different classes, like a few 3pps have done - has been one of my goals for quite some time. I think if any are to "make a comeback" that's the route that should be aimed for.

I'll post a list when I'm home and can get to my books =)

[Aldizog]

I think Paladin works best thematically as a prestige class (you have to *earn* your way into it), as it was in BECMI and an optional 3.5 variant.

Seeker of the Song, Death Delver, Master of Radiance, Nature's Warrior, Alienist, and Runesmith were all interesting options that are not yet (as far as I know) emulated in PF.
From Tome of Magic, the Shadow Magic PrC's were pretty cool. These could be done in such a way that Wayangs get early entry or other bonuses.
I liked the Racial Paragon classes (again showing my BECMI roots).
Two anti-magic options for Fighters: Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer. I would love to see more feats based on Disruptive, possibly inspired by Supernatural Opportunist or the Mage Slayer line.

Several from Lords of Madness (Darkrunner, Keeper of the Cerulean Sign, Topaz Guardian); I like foe-focused PrC's (like the Knights of Ozem) for thematic reasons. Fleshwarper would make a great alchemist PrC or a set of mid-high level discoveries.

[The Human Diversion]

Pious Templar
Devoted Defender
Divine Oracle
Oozemaster

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Ultimate Magus. It's a wizard/ Sorcerer version of a Mystic Theurge. Only the requirements were such that you only needed one sorcerer level to enter. Then not only do you have dual spell progression you also get Caster level bonuses to all spells. I loved this class, but sadly never really got to play one.

[Jason Nelson]

Orthos wrote:

Converting my favorites among 3.5 prestige classes into PF Archetypes - especially if I can find a way to do it that allows an archetype to be taken by different classes, like a few 3pps have done - has been one of my goals for quite some time. I think if any are to "make a comeback" that's the route that should be aimed for.

I'll post a list when I'm home and can get to my books =)

Thanks, looking forward to it.

One of the interesting advantages of PrCs vs. archetypes is that you can construct them so that they have flexible points of entry, so you can get into them from a number of different approaches. Assuming it's not a railroad-specific PrC, of course, you might enter a fighting-based PrC as a fighter or a barbarian or a monk or a ranger or a paladin or a brawler or whatever. You didn't need separate archetypes to build into the same role.

There are downsides, of course, like not being able to enter PrCs until after 5th level... but that's merely a precedent, not a necessity. You COULD establish your entry requirements to be whatever you wanted them to be.

Long story short, I wonder which PrCs would work better as:
1. Archetypes
2. Traditional PrCs
3. Substitution levels (like the racial paragon PrCs)
4. Built out as full 20-level alternate classes a la the ninja, samurai, an antipaladin.

[Orthos]

I'll admit, for me the PrC system lost its luster when Pathfinder created Archetypes. 3.5 had some similar things with class substitution levels, paragon classes, PHB2's alternate class options, and stuff like that, but Pathfinder I think advanced those systems beyond their initial limited ideas into a much more workable system.

Couple this with the way Pathfinder's mechanics strongly discourage multiclassing, and it pretty much (IMO) makes Archetypes the superior choice almost every time.

[blahpers]

ALIENIST.

[Taperat]

I was always a big fan of the Swiftblade. Haste personified!

[GhanjRho]

Abjurant Champion. Such a fun little Gish class.

[Michael Sayre]

Fochlucan Lyricist was one of my favorites and the one I'd most like to see brought forward.

Red Wizard was always pretty fun, even if it was almost more of an NPC PrC.

Swiftblade was always really entertaining as a very unusual gish with entertaining abilities and prereqs.

I believe the Sorcerer/Wizard PrC was called the Ultimate Magus and it was pretty cool, but as I understand it, those are just called Arcanists now.

Ooh! The Cataclysm Mage from Eberron was always a big favorite at the table.

[christos gurd]

Zerth cenobit was one of my favs.

[Scott_UAT]

I always loved "Knight of the Raven" from Ravenloft. I could caaaawwwww at people and no one could understand me ;-)

[JonGarrett]

Warshaper. The immunity to crits was a bit much (maybe change it so you're only crit on natural 20?) but otherwise it was a lot of fun.

[Zhayne]

We have the Sacred Fist archetype for the Warpriest, but still no version of the ... the ... Diamond Soul? Is that what it was called, the monk/arcane multiclass patch?

Admittedly, most likely it'd be a great archetype for the Magus rather than a PrC, but I want some arcane punching.

[ObligatoryHuman]

Pale Master and Malconvoker because darkness.

[Espy Lacopa]

I always enjoyed the Warforged Juggernaut. Alas, can't see that one making a come back without Warforged. Maybe a version of it for those Androids.

[Orthos]

Zhayne wrote:

We have the Sacred Fist archetype for the Warpriest, but still no version of the ... the ... Diamond Soul? Is that what it was called, the monk/arcane multiclass patch?

Admittedly, most likely it'd be a great archetype for the Magus rather than a PrC, but I want some arcane punching.

Enlightened Fist.

[scary harpy]

The Loremaster really should be updated. I don't want this Prestige Class to fade away.

[Interjection Games]

Seeker of the Song
Exorcist of the Silver Flame
Halfling Rock-skipping Champion
Tenebrous Disciple

Of course, two of them are awesome simply because of deity IP, and we all know the sort of angry wombat noises that get made if we use anything other than Orcus.

[Tacticslion]

Dot.

[Kcinlive]

I always liked the Alienist. Ultimate Magus was also a cool class. Maybe not the best execution of it, but I love the idea of being the ultimate master of spells/arcane power. Though now the Arcanist is kind of trying to do what that prestige class did.

On a slightly different note, I've always wanted a prestige class based on becoming a worm-that-walks. I always thought they were neat, if creepy. Have to admit when I saw the post on the Legendary Games site, I got excited. Then disappointed...

-Kcinlive

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Sacred Fist!

[Jason Nelson]

You can still get excited. Because... reasons... :)

P.S. For lovers of the alienist, Legendary Games did make a version of the Alienist as a summoner archetype in Beyond the Void, which is also included in the Gothic Campaign Compendium. Very creepy and cool for fans of the PrC.

[Kcinlive]

Jason Nelson wrote:

You can still get excited. Because... reasons... :)

P.S. For lovers of the alienist, Legendary Games did make a version of the Alienist as a summoner archetype in Beyond the Void, which is also included in the Gothic Campaign Compendium. Very creepy and cool for fans of the PrC.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

-Kcinlive

[Alex Smith 908]

Fleshwarper
Fiend Binder
Oozemaster
Beast Heart Adept
Dungeon Lord
Cancer Mage
Vermin Lord
Ghostwalker (would work great as a supernatural gunslinger archetype)
Blighter (druid archetype)
War Weaver
Bone Knight

[Papa-DRB]

Kcinlive wrote:

Jason Nelson wrote:

You can still get excited. Because... reasons... :)

P.S. For lovers of the alienist, Legendary Games did make a version of the Alienist as a summoner archetype in Beyond the Void, which is also included in the Gothic Campaign Compendium. Very creepy and cool for fans of the PrC.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

-Kcinlive

Click on the links. You can purchase them from Legendary Games.

[RHMG Animator]

Here's My almost complete List Of PrCs I'd like brought back

From Complete Warrior:

Bear warrior,
Frenzed Berserker,
Rage Mage,
Knight of the Chalice,
Order of the Bow Initiate,
Reaping Mauler,
Spellsword,
Warshaper,

From Complete Divine:

Divine Crusader,
Radiant Servant of Pelor,
Rainbow Servant,
Sacred Exorcist,
Sacred Fist,
Warpriest,

From Complete Arcane:

Acolyte of the skin,
Elemental savant,
Enlightened Fist,
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil,
Master transmogrifist,
Mindbender,

From Complete Adenturer:

Animal Lord,
Ghost-Faced Killer,
Master of Many Forms,
Shadowbane Inquisitor,
Shadowbane Stalker,
Streetfighter,
Tempest,
Thief-Acrobat,
Vigilante,

From Frostburn:

Frost Mage,
Frost Rager,
Primeval,

From Draconomicon:

Dragon PrCs
Bloodscaled Fury,
Disciple of Ashardalon,
Dragon Ascendant,
Elemental Master,
Hidecarved Dragon,

Humanoid ones
Dracolyte,
Dragonkith,
Dragonslayer,
Dragonsong Lyrist
Dragonstalker,
Hoardstealer,
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries

From Libris Mortis:

Master of Radiance
Master of Shrouds
Pale Master
Sacred Purifier
True Necromancer

From FC:2:

Hellbreaker
Hellreaver
Soulguard

From Fiend Folio:

Fiend of Blasmphy
Fiend of Corruption
Fiend of Possesion

From Miniatures HandBook:

Dragon Samurai
Havoc Mage
Skullclan Hunter
War Hulk
Warchief

From Savage Species:

emancipated spawn,
Siren
Survivor

[Scott_UAT]

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Fleshwarper

Fiend Binder
Oozemaster
Beast Heart Adept
Dungeon Lord
Cancer Mage
Vermin Lord
Ghostwalker (would work great as a supernatural gunslinger archetype)
Blighter (druid archetype)
War Weaver
Bone Knight

Paizo did a blight druid actually (I had a player in one of my games who played it too)

[mswbear]

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Fiend Binder

Black fire adept

Demoniac
Diabolist
Soul Eater

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Cancer Mage

agreed

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Blighter

Blight Druid Archetype is similar and actually a little bit more versatile. If you take the decay domain instead of an animal companion it is even more similar. The only down side is that there is no way you can ever get an undead animal companion.

[Zherog]

Interjection Games wrote:

Seeker of the Song

Exorcist of the Silver Flame
Halfling Rock-skipping Champion
Tenebrous Disciple

Of course, two of them are awesome simply because of deity IP, and we all know the sort of angry wombat noises that get made if we use anything other than Orcus.

If you've never seen it, I took a stab at halfling rock-skipping champion (though as a base class) in Kobold Press's Expanded Elven Archer. (And for completeness, all of that material also appears in KP's New Paths Compendium.

And, of course, I'm finding this topic quite interesting...

[Alex Smith 908]

mswbear wrote:

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Fiend Binder

Black fire adept

Demoniac
Diabolist
Soul Eater

I was unaware of the blight druid.

I have to disagree for the demoniac or any of those other classes covering fiend binder. They feel a lot more like a generic version of the thrall and disciple prestige classes. The part of the fiend binder I want replicated is the long term fiendish servant whose nature you had to work around and conflict with. So something that significantly expands on and develops things like planar binding rather than just giving you a small bonus hear or that to summoning.

[christos gurd]

Well technically you can get an undead animal companion from blood of the night. Just reflavor as necessary.

[Reechlard]

I couldn't be the only one who misses the Ashworm Dragoon, could I?

[Jason Nelson]

Scott_UAT wrote:

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Fleshwarper

Fiend Binder
Oozemaster
Beast Heart Adept
Dungeon Lord
Cancer Mage
Vermin Lord
Ghostwalker (would work great as a supernatural gunslinger archetype)
Blighter (druid archetype)
War Weaver
Bone Knight

Paizo did a blight druid actually (I had a player in one of my games who played it too)

Amusingly, that was one that I wrote (did all the APG/UM druid archetypes, actually). Including *sigh* the much-debated animal shamans... :)

[Jason Nelson]

Reechlard wrote:

I couldn't be the only one who misses the Ashworm Dragoon, could I?

Ha! I love those guys. The "terrain" books were actually some of my all-time favorite 3.5 books.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Sand shaper from the 3.5 desert book.

[RHMG Animator]

Only had frostburn from the environmental series
And I loved the Frost Mage, Frost Rager, and Primeval.

Posted pretty much complete list of all my favorite PrCs above

[Voadam]

GhanjRho wrote:

Abjurant Champion. Such a fun little Gish class.

Abjurant Champion for me as well. It worked nice alongside eldritch knight to have options for those last few levels after completing a PRC without going back to the base classes. I think that was Complete Mage.

[Jason Nelson]

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

mswbear wrote:

Alex Smith 908 wrote:

Fiend Binder

Black fire adept

Demoniac
Diabolist
Soul Eater

I was unaware of the blight druid.

I have to disagree for the demoniac or any of those other classes covering fiend binder. They feel a lot more like a generic version of the thrall and disciple prestige classes. The part of the fiend binder I want replicated is the long term fiendish servant whose nature you had to work around and conflict with. So something that significantly expands on and develops things like planar binding rather than just giving you a small bonus hear or that to summoning.

Looked at that way, Fiend Binder really sounds more like a summoner and eidolon with an antagonistic relationship.

Then again, eidolons have always reminded me of the demon-summoning method in David Eddings' Belgariad/Malloreon book, where the summoner basically crafted the demon as it was summoned, shaping its appearance and size and such, but if the summoner lost control the REAL demon would peel out from inside the shell the summoner had created and eat him.

[houser2112]

Because archery doesn't get enough toys... Deepwood Sniper.

[Alex Smith 908]

Fiend Binder as a summoner archetype would be fantastic.

[Zhayne]

Orthos wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

We have the Sacred Fist archetype for the Warpriest, but still no version of the ... the ... Diamond Soul? Is that what it was called, the monk/arcane multiclass patch?

Admittedly, most likely it'd be a great archetype for the Magus rather than a PrC, but I want some arcane punching.

Enlightened Fist.

Thank you. Can never remember the name of that thing.

[Aurelias]

No love for the Gray Guard? Nothing like torturing cultists for great justice.

[Papa-DRB]

"Something of Candlekeep" It was a FR wizard prestige class that eventually gave metamagic feats, empower, maximize, quicken at one less plus to the spell level.

[Captain K.]

What was that crazy one which had entry requirements for each level, including dying and being brought back? It had silly prerequisites too, needing Bard and Rogue and Druid.

Anyway, I'd like to see...

Oozemaster!

Alienist!

Thrall of Juiblex!

[Luthorne]

Prestige classes I miss...

Spoiler:

Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) A neat short prestige class that gives out some fun benefits with abjuration spells.

Argent Savant (Complete Arcane) Just a fun little prestige class to boost your ability with force spells. In Pathfinder, though, I think it should probably either be dissected into a feat chain or possibly be an evoker subschool for the wizard.

Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) You're so angry, you turn into a bear. Very fun. I want a barbarian archetype that does this...

Beast Heart Adept (Dungeonscape) Running around with your monster buddies, what's not to like? I always loved the concept more than a regular animal companion, which is probably one reason I like summoner...

Chameleon (Races of Destiny) Racial restrictions are generally terrible unless it's actually interacting with racial traits or somesuch (and in which case it should really be restricted to anyone with that racial trait rather than a specific race), but I do like the versatility.

Demonbinder (Drow of the Underdark) While this was a warlock prestige class, I think it could be adapted for a spellcaster, and the concept was a lot of fun...a quickly regenerating pool of points and binding the essence of demons to gain power that altered your appearance. I was always sad this was restricted to drow...and also think that tweaked versions calling on the power of angels and other outsiders would certainly be equally cool.

Enlightened Fist (Complete Arcane) What can I say, I like my kung fu with arcane magic rather than divine. Still vaguely tempted to make an empyreal sorcerer/sohei monk/eldritch knight sometime to play with the concept, but a well-done version of this prestige class might offer alternatives. You could probably make this into a magus archetype, but I really prefer spontaneous casters myself...

Entropomancer (Complete Divine) A cool idea hampered by nerfed spellcasting, but I loved the idea of having a character centered around attacking with a black sphere of entropy...though honestly I would have liked it if it were open to arcane and divine casters alike. The entropic field was a cool concept too.

Fleshwarper (Lords of Madness) Because nature did well enough, but you know you can do better! *cue maniacal laughter* This could probably be an alchemist archetype, though, or at least some extra alchemist discoveries, though it would be fun to have access to for other classes, though I never understood why the familiar was necessary to the concept...

Frostrager (Frostburn) Always liked the flavor and theme. Actually, would probably be awesome to alter appropriately and turn into a boreal bloodline for the bloodrager...

Geomancer (Complete Divine) Mostly, I liked the concept of drift, slowly becoming less human (or whatever), and thought it was a neat optional houserule to have it optionally affect high-level druids who spend their time away from civilization; that said, the way they blended arcane and divine magic together was pretty interesting too.

Green Star Adept (Complete Arcane) Slowly turning into an immortal construct is awesome. Though, being restricted by needing to find a certain kind of metal is flavorful, but unnecessarily restrictive, so I'd rather see that fall by the wayside. Would be pretty badass as a bloodrager bloodline or archetype...

Insidious Corruptor (Drow of the Underdark) Another prestige class I was sad was restricted to drow, I remember thinking that this could make for one hell of a bard archetype. The nerfed spellcasting was painful, but the things you could do with your claws of influence was delightfully nefarious.

Master of Masks (Complete Scoundrel) I just like the concept of this one a lot, donning various masks to get different powers. I felt like the powers didn't scale well enough, and the half BAB was bad, but I still really liked the concept and wanted to try it anyways.

Master Transmogrifist (Complete Arcane) I love shapeshifting in general, though polymorphing is a lot different in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5, so it would require some reworking, but it was a fun concept. I especially liked being able to remain in an alternate form via alter self indefinitely.

Master of the Unseen Hand (Complete Warrior) Telekinesis is fun, and it's a shame this class was so unfriendly to your spellcasting. For Pathfinder, I'd just make most of its class features into feats, probably...though I have hopes that the upcoming kineticist will gain at least some of its abilities.

Mindbender (Complete Arcane) Loved the concept, hated the spellcasting nerf. Gaining telepathy, reading minds, toying with minds...it could possibly be redone as a bard archetype, though.

Mindspy (Complete Warrior) A neat concept, making detect thoughts into something usable in combat...like Master of the Unseen Hand, though, I'd probably make most of its class features into feats.

Mountebank (Complete Scoundrel) Having different alter egos you can slip into is a lot of fun, and the teleportation bits were also neat, though I wanted a lot more uses of it.

Primeval (Frostburn) Shapeshifting is fun and having your theme be turning into a dinosaur or sabertooth tiger to annihilate your enemies is pretty awesome. Sure, a druid can do it, but it's more like something he does on the side while also being a full caster and all that...

Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine) Definitely liked the flavor for this, gaining access to divine spells as a good-aligned arcane caster is fun, especially since the association is with couatls rather than with a deity, giving it a neat Mesoamerican vibe.

Runesmith (Races of Stone) Again, I don't like racial restrictions, but the concept of using runes to get around somatic components is extremely flavorful and a fun idea in general. I'll admit it's flavorful for dwarves, but it also works well for germanic and nordic concepts, as well as potentially evoking lost or primitive forms of magic.

Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone) Racial restrictions, grr, but it's extremely cool for shadow magic. Might make for an interesting bard archetype, illusion subschool for wizards, or possibly a series of feats.

Swift Wing (Dragon Magic) Because a cleric or paladin who has a positive energy breath weapon and can grow wings is pretty awesome. Arguably somewhat less useful given the (very welcome) evolution of turn undead into channel energy, but it could be boosted a bit, and I love the awesome factor.

Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior) I definitely thought this was a cool concept and would like it to be a monk archetype in Pathfinder. Though come to think of it, you could certainly flavor a qinggong monk as a tattooed monk...

Urban Soul (Races of Destiny) The racial restriction is lame, and it does presume you're in a primarily urban adventure, but if you are, it's damn cool to draw on the strength of whatever city you're in, and at high levels, stride from city to city.

Warshaper (Complete Warrior) I said I liked shapeshifting, yes? Lots of fun little things, would definitely like to have some of this, possibly in the form of feats, or a non-caster shapeshifting class that specializes in hulking out...