From the Sacred Fist Archer part of your guide "Crusaders Flurry - Actually the functional core of the build. Mandatory to make it work. Must be taken at level 5."
Crusader's Flurry
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, flurry of blows class feature, Weapon Focus with your deity's favored melee weapon.
I guess it still could work if the deity has both bow and a melee weapon as favored weapon and you took weapon focus for both.
I appear to have misread. So you'd have to be a sohei which would ruin the build. I will remove it.
It could work with thrown weapons, but you would need a blinkback belt and quick-draw, and still isn't as good as archery.
Still a Starknife build would be interesting, if not much better than a shuriken build.
Too feat intensive. Unfortunate but true.
I can't think of other ways to make a weapon a monk weapon so there is only one way to make it work which is multiclass into zen archer. I can actually make the build work but it won't have the rapid/many shot advantage making it merely a very powerful archer not the premier archer.
Well your guide is what prompted me to consider dipping Warpriest after 6 levels of Zen Archer. In my case it was a bad idea because Irori has lousy choices for the minor Blessings and none of the Sacred Fist stuff stacks other then maybe the Wis boost to AC and I'm sure that will get FAQed. The Divine Favor trick is sweet but you need Caster level 6 to get the base bonus up to +2 and the other Cleric buffs duplicate bonuses from items I already have. A 1 level dip loses you a BAB but allows wand of Divine Favor for +2 to hit and damage if you get a round to buff. Heck if Sacred Fist flurry and ZA flurry stacked I'd jump to it in a heartbeat.
How do they not stack? You perform a flurry of blows. Your BAB is your Monk Level (Flurry class) + Your WP Level(Flurry class) + your BAB from non-flurry granting classes.
Your number of bonus TWF attacks doesn't increase until you get to 8th level in Monk or Warpriest, but the BAB for the flurry does.
The extra attack at 6th and 8th level is what I mean.
You get the extra attack at 6th, as that is a BAB based iterative. The attack at 8 is based on TWF, and that is delayed until you reach 8th level in one of the classes.
Well, class power aside this game has taught me that tower shields are not worth spending a feat on. Ever.
In fact the more I play this class the more I think it does have it's own space (kinda) but it suffers from the same problem fighters do. That is: Fighter bonus feats are (Mostly) pretty mundane.
For me it seems to take up the same role as a paladin (this is irrespective of the order you take.), in that you will be 90% fighting all combat and unless it's to pick up the wizard, you will only be healing people after combat.
At low levels you need to be very careful about how much fervor you use, but by level 8 you should be able to drop a swift spell almost every other round.
As a 2 handed fighter type, you need to 1 either hinder and/or massively harm an enemy and keep your self standing.
Best method, is to debuff via Dazzling Display, Cornugon Smash and shatter defense.
OR
if you have the intelligence, go trip monkey.
The extra attack at 6th and 8th level is what I mean.
You get the extra attack at 6th, as that is a BAB based iterative. The attack at 8 is based on TWF, and that is delayed until you reach 8th level in one of the classes.
Ah in that case ZA8/SF 3 might be worthwhile. Though in my case I'm going Weapon Master 3 for the Weapon Training - Gloves of Dueling trick.
Well, class power aside this game has taught me that tower shields are not worth spending a feat on. Ever.
In fact the more I play this class the more I think it does have it's own space (kinda) but it suffers from the same problem fighters do. That is: Fighter bonus feats are (Mostly) pretty mundane.
For me it seems to take up the same role as a paladin (this is irrespective of the order you take.), in that you will be 90% fighting all combat and unless it's to pick up the wizard, you will only be healing people after combat.
At low levels you need to be very careful about how much fervor you use, but by level 8 you should be able to drop a swift spell almost every other round.
As a 2 handed fighter type, you need to 1 either hinder and/or massively harm an enemy and keep your self standing.
Best method, is to debuff via Dazzling Display, Cornugon Smash and shatter defense.
OR
if you have the intelligence, go trip monkey.
I can tell you right now that a SF 10/Fighter 1 is the definitive best tower shield user in the entire game. You get both a tower shield and full plate at the cost of a 1 level dip. AC should be through the roof While maintaining the ability to use dragon style to round house kick people.
As far as I can see, a Sacred Fist can flurry in armour, just like a Sohei, and for the same reason - the language that prevents flurrying in armour is in the monk's Weapon & Armour Proficiency section and wasn't copied into the Sacred Fist's W&AP section. And with no fast movement or evasion, the only thing that the SF loses by wearing armour is an AC bonus that's probably smaller than he can get from said armour.
Further, like the Sohei, a Sacred Fist that hits 15th level, thus maxing his extra attacks from flurry and then takes 4 or 5 levels of a full BAB class will have a seven attack flurry at 20th level.
So a Sacred Fist that takes Crusader's Flurry and dips a full BAB class for armour (& perhaps shield) proficiency should be pretty effective. All the attacks of TWFighting, without the need to enchant / buff separate weapons. A proper AC without needing to push Wisdom beyond 15.
The only thing I can't decide is which base class (classes?) to dip. I would think a single level dip at level one (maximize the hp benefit, get access to BAB +1 feats at level one) and then leave the rest off until after maxing out flurry at fifteenth. (Might want to get sixteenth level Warpriest as well to get sixth level spells - doing so doesn't cost any BAB)
As far as I can see, a Sacred Fist can flurry in armour, just like a Sohei, and for the same reason - the language that prevents flurrying in armour is in the monk's Weapon & Armour Proficiency section and wasn't copied into the Sacred Fist's W&AP section. And with no fast movement or evasion, the only thing that the SF loses by wearing armour is an AC bonus that's probably smaller than he can get from said armour.
It's 100% allowed. You lose nothing but the armor bonus.
ZanThrax wrote:
Further, like the Sohei, a Sacred Fist that hits 15th level, thus maxing his extra attacks from flurry and then takes 4 or 5 levels of a full BAB class will have a seven attack flurry at 20th level.
True story unfortunately doing so is horribly wrong since your summoning blessings will not progress and your casting will not progress.
ZanThrax wrote:
So a Sacred Fist that takes Crusader's Flurry and dips a full BAB class for armour (& perhaps shield) proficiency should be pretty effective. All the attacks of TWFighting, without the need to enchant / buff separate weapons. A proper AC without needing to push Wisdom beyond 15.
Best TWF ever created. Did I mention you can flurry with a reach weapon? As a side note I strongly recommend wisdom 16 or 12 because it lets you get a bonus 6th level spell off just your headband or reduces your stat dependencies.
ZanThrax wrote:
The only thing I can't decide is which base class (classes?) to dip. I would think a single level dip at level one (maximize the hp benefit, get access to BAB +1 feats at level one) and then leave the rest off until after maxing out flurry at fifteenth. (Might want to get sixteenth level Warpriest as well to get sixth level spells - doing so doesn't cost any BAB)
One level dip is either monk of many styles, or a full bab martial class with powerful first level effects such as Fighter and paladin spring to mind.
Further, like the Sohei, a Sacred Fist that hits 15th level, thus maxing his extra attacks from flurry and then takes 4 or 5 levels of a full BAB class will have a seven attack flurry at 20th level.
True story unfortunately doing so is horribly wrong since your summoning blessings will not progress and your casting will not progress.
Meh. I'm not nearly so enamoured of the summon blessings that I'd care about it stopping at SM VII. Likewise the one or two spell slots per level.
Undone wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
So a Sacred Fist that takes Crusader's Flurry and dips a full BAB class for armour (& perhaps shield) proficiency should be pretty effective. All the attacks of TWFighting, without the need to enchant / buff separate weapons. A proper AC without needing to push Wisdom beyond 15.
Best TWF ever created. Did I mention you can flurry with a reach weapon? As a side note I strongly recommend wisdom 16 or 12 because it lets you get a bonus 6th level spell off just your headband or reduces your stat dependencies.
I could flurry with a reach weapon sure, but I'd rather not. I find them too inconvenient to use in many fights in small areas, and especially in winding up in positions where the only way to use them is through the soft cover of an ally. I'd rather just flurry a bastard sword and bring a shield along.
I'm thinking I'd start with a 14 Wisdom and boost it at 12th and 16th to allow 5th and 6th level casting just before it becomes possible.
Undone wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
The only thing I can't decide is which base class (classes?) to dip. I would think a single level dip at level one (maximize the hp benefit, get access to BAB +1 feats at level one) and then leave the rest off until after maxing out flurry at fifteenth. (Might want to get sixteenth level Warpriest as well to get sixth level spells - doing so doesn't cost any BAB)
One level dip is either monk of many styles, or a full bab martial class with powerful first level effects such as Fighter and paladin spring to mind.
I'm not loving the MoMS dip for an armoured Sacred Fist; it was difficult enough to find something remotely useful for the SFs bonus style feats, I'm not sure getting more of them would help him.
I'd prefer to use a class with more skill points and better saves than the Fighter, but right now am sticking with it simply so that armor training would eventually be available.
I'm just not seeing how bringing in a single summoned ally with a CR less than half my level is going to contribute so much to a fight that's it's going to be more powerful than anything else I could be doing with that swift action. In fact, looking ahead for the Wapriest that I built Friday, I think I'd rather use Quicken Blessing on Destructive Attacks or Heart of Carnage.
Two weeks ago I did a Warpriest with Inquisitor and my Gamemaster posted me this thread. Maybee you Undone and the others can tell me what you think about my Character. Thank you.
I'm just not seeing how bringing in a single summoned ally with a CR less than half my level is going to contribute so much to a fight that's it's going to be more powerful than anything else I could be doing with that swift action. In fact, looking ahead for the Wapriest that I built Friday, I think I'd rather use Quicken Blessing on Destructive Attacks or Heart of Carnage.
Well assuming you buy a ring of summoning affinity (Which you should they're cheap at 14+) these are some of the SM8s.
Evil summons are admittedly better however you don't need to BE evil to use the evil blessing. You can be neutral. The good summons have healing and holy aura.
I'm currently playing in a game as a Warpriest and I'm quite sad at your rating for 2h warpriest. As a human and favored bonus all into more combat feats, I was able to fill both the whirlwind attack and greater cleaving finish line at lvl 13, while still picking up Swift Blessing to get a chaotic azata for that delicious +2 bardsong. (yes it's a lot of filler, but not all wasted, spring attack has let me do plenty of damage while staying out of the bone zone)
Righteous Might + lunge + whirlwind attack makes this a build of absolute death, hitting every creature within range at full BAB, and if you drop one getting ANOTHER attack on ANY creature within range. Single target killing is great, but when you can slaughter all the minions in a fight leaving only the boss.
And what do you think of taking Crusader's Flurry to let your sacred fist be able to flurry with the diety's favored weapon?
I'm currently playing in a game as a Warpriest and I'm quite sad at your rating for 2h warpriest. As a human and favored bonus all into more combat feats, I was able to fill both the whirlwind attack and greater cleaving finish line at lvl 13, while still picking up Swift Blessing to get a chaotic azata for that delicious +2 bardsong. (yes it's a lot of filler, but not all wasted, spring attack has let me do plenty of damage while staying out of the bone zone)
I'm not saying the two handed WP is bad. I'm saying what exactly about the above is not viable as a reach WP?
Throiath wrote:
Righteous Might + lunge + whirlwind attack makes this a build of absolute death, hitting every creature within range at full BAB, and if you drop one getting ANOTHER attack on ANY creature within range. Single target killing is great, but when you can slaughter all the minions in a fight leaving only the boss.
What about this cannot be done on a reach WP?
For those who love the normal 2 handed build what feat exactly do you want to take that does not work with reach? Step up and strike is the most relevant thing and it's not bad but if you don't take it and fight targets that 5 foot away you fall far behind the reach build.
Throiath wrote:
And what do you think of taking Crusader's Flurry to let your sacred fist be able to flurry with the diety's favored weapon?
How do they not stack? You perform a flurry of blows. Your BAB is your Monk Level (Flurry class) + Your WP Level(Flurry class) + your BAB from non-flurry granting classes.
Your number of bonus TWF attacks doesn't increase until you get to 8th level in Monk or Warpriest, but the BAB for the flurry does.
Monk and Warpriest Flurry do not stack at all. They are completely separate. A Monk/Warpriest would actually have two distinct Flurry abilities. His BAB for his Monk Flurry would be his Monk level + his BAB from other classes(including Warpriest). His BAB for his Warpriest Flurry would be his Warpriest level + his BAB from all other classes(including Monk).
If you check the FAQ on Flurry of Blows,
FAQ wrote:
Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
You'll see that a Monk only treats his Monk levels as his BAB for Flurries, not his levels from all "Flurry Classes". Warpriest Flurry works exactly the same way except replace "Monk" with "Warpriest".
1)dodge, combat reflexes, weapon focus (whip)
3)whip mastery, mobility
5) combat expertise
6) imp whip mastery, spring attack
7) whirlwind attack
-------------- build set
9) gr weapon focus, lunge
11) quicken blessing
12) critical focus, critical versatility
OR
12) power attack, dazing assault
If I don't go for whirlwind, I get like 5 feats and can start with like 16wis or something...
On the other hand 35ft whirlwinds, esp paired with dazing/crit feats seem... Strong?
This build fairly good but takes a while to come online. Whirlwind is actually very good at clearing the room but I feel it's too feat intensive and costs you too much. Your build also like most WP builds has major issues with single target damage.
1)dodge, combat reflexes, weapon focus (whip)
3)whip mastery, mobility
5) combat expertise
6) imp whip mastery, spring attack
7) whirlwind attack
-------------- build set
9) gr weapon focus, lunge
11) quicken blessing
12) critical focus, critical versatility
OR
12) power attack, dazing assault
If I don't go for whirlwind, I get like 5 feats and can start with like 16wis or something...
On the other hand 35ft whirlwinds, esp paired with dazing/crit feats seem... Strong?
This build fairly good but takes a while to come online. Whirlwind is actually very good at clearing the room but I feel it's too feat intensive and costs you too much. Your build also like most WP builds has major issues with single target damage.
by lvl 12 using vicious+holy via sacred weapon and buffed with divine power and enlarge you should be about 2d8+4d6+17 with a +3whip. +21 if double handling the whip. with attacks like +27/+27/+22. -3attacks +6/+9damage from power attack
you would still threaten at 20ft and be able to attack at 35ft so enemy casters are kinda screwed too.
why do you think that this is bad damage? that's like an average of 40-44 damage/hit, not counting crits due to low crit range, and at least 2 attacks at a superb attack bonus.
also not that slow to set up either:
1st round:drink potion of enlarge/have someone else enlarge you, get enlarge via other way (let's say standard), rush in (move) swift cast divine might (swift),
2nd round: swift buff armor+weapon, whirlwind to empty space, or full attack boss (full round)
and you still have an enchanted plate armor, heavy shield/no shield if power attacking, dodge, aoe sancutary with scaling dc that doesnt break for all when attacking for defence. Also swift action command if someone tries to mess things up, reroll running since it has no duration, reroll for opponent's critical hits, good fort/will, etc making you quite a monster to take down
by lvl 12 using vicious+holy via sacred weapon and buffed with divine power and enlarge you should be about 2d8+4d6+17 with a +3whip. +21 if double handling the whip. with attacks like +27/+27/+22. -3attacks +6/+9damage from power attack
Because by level 12 monsters have 160 HP. If you waste round 1 then round 2 full attack on average an at level monster will not die and it will take you 3 rounds to kill an at level monster, 4 or 5 to get a monster above your level.
That is pitiful damage.
shroudb wrote:
you would still threaten at 20ft and be able to attack at 35ft so enemy casters are kinda screwed too.
Agreed. It's good at that.
shroudb wrote:
why do you think that this is bad damage? that's like an average of 40-44 damage/hit, not counting crits due to low crit range, and at least 2 attacks at a superb attack bonus.
Which is low. I'm not sure how else to explain it. At level 12 even a cleric can be hitting for over 60 average damage on a hit. Barbarians are literally looking at double your numbers with more hits per turn. Archers are looking at around double the DPR of your average hit while your average DPR is around 70-90 the DPR of an archer is well into the 160 range without optimizing and closer to 200 with optimization.
shroudb wrote:
also not that slow to set up either:
1st round:drink potion of enlarge/have someone else enlarge you, get enlarge via other way (let's say standard), rush in (move) swift cast divine might (swift),
2nd round: swift buff armor+weapon, whirlwind to empty space, or full attack boss (full round)
One round of setup is glacially slow. In that one turn I can quicken grease you and wall of force then have a long time to set up.
shroudb wrote:
and you still have an enchanted plate armor, heavy shield/no shield if power attacking, dodge, aoe sancutary with scaling dc that doesnt break for all when attacking for defence. Also swift action command if someone tries to mess things up, reroll running since it has no duration, reroll for opponent's critical hits, good fort/will, etc making you quite a monster to take down
You're definitely strong defensively but that has little to do with the feats or weapons selected.
by lvl 12 using vicious+holy via sacred weapon and buffed with divine power and enlarge you should be about 2d8+4d6+17 with a +3whip. +21 if double handling the whip. with attacks like +27/+27/+22. -3attacks +6/+9damage from power attack
Because by level 12 monsters have 160 HP. If you waste round 1 then round 2 full attack on average an at level monster will not die and it will take you 3 rounds to kill an at level monster, 4 or 5 to get a monster above your level.
That is pitiful damage.
shroudb wrote:
you would still threaten at 20ft and be able to attack at 35ft so enemy casters are kinda screwed too.
Agreed. It's good at that.
shroudb wrote:
why do you think that this is bad damage? that's like an average of 40-44 damage/hit, not counting crits due to low crit range, and at least 2 attacks at a superb attack bonus.
Which is low. I'm not sure how else to explain it. At level 12 even a cleric can be hitting for over 60 average damage on a hit. Barbarians are literally looking at double your numbers with more hits per turn. Archers are looking at around double the DPR of your average hit while your average DPR is around 70-90 the DPR of an archer is well into the 160 range without optimizing and closer to 200 with optimization.
shroudb wrote:
also not that slow to set up either:
1st round:drink potion of enlarge/have someone else enlarge you, get enlarge via other way (let's say standard), rush in (move) swift cast divine might (swift),
2nd round: swift buff armor+weapon, whirlwind to empty space, or full attack boss (full round)
One round of setup is glacially slow. In that one turn I can quicken grease you and wall of force then have a long time to set up.
shroudb wrote:
and you still have an enchanted plate armor, heavy shield/no shield if power attacking, dodge, aoe sancutary with scaling dc that doesnt break for all when attacking for defence. Also swift action command if someone tries to mess things up, reroll
...
i can understand barbarians hitting up to insane amount of damage as well as some other classes.
the thing is, there is this thing as overkill.
~90-110 damage /round almost guaranteed, even up to 150+ if all 3 attacks hit, which is quite possible, is enough to clear level appropriate challenges imo.
even an adult red dragon which is cr 14 has like 200 hp with 29 ac (2first attacks miss only on a 1, 3rd attack hits 75%)
can a barbarian one shot it? sure
is it needed? nah
My point is the other available styles do more damage with less investment. You're also not actually doing DPR calcs.
It's not a bad build but again it's not as strong as available other builds. Additionally at level 12 using your swift action to haste is a DPR loss to the quickening of a summon blessing.
My point is you take 3 rounds to kill it in a neutral situation. Most builds I'm recommending would 1 round the target equal in level in neutral situations. That's sort of the point of the blue builds. The builds damage is usually measured approximately by the rounds it takes to kill something. 3 Is a pretty long time, almost intolerably long. The lance build, the archery build, and the Sacred fist all can 1 round a level appropriate target. The two handed reach build can 2 round it, 1 round with the two AOO's counting fortuitous. Damage is just a math thing. you have we'll say 44/44/44 damage for 41.8/41.8/33 average damages for 116.6 average non crit damage. Well then we have to halve it because it took two turns meaning the DPR is 58.3.
I'm not saying this to knock your build I'm saying this from a numbers perspective. Taking 3 rounds to kill a level appropriate target in a neutral situation is simply too long.
Nope sacred fist is busted, he can with aoo if the enemy is brain dead.
As well as most dpr builds take things into account like prebuffing min/lvk spells, that usually don't works, and ultimately everyone can do it.
Hell! Even my own build with prebuffing has 0 rounds instead of one, and if he actually uses more than 1spell to buff can 1round most cr+2 enemies.
Lance build also has the usual limitations of being useless in 50% of the encounters.
That's the thing with DPR builds, they look the world through rose tinted glasses that everything is in their favor, disregarding that cr is based on the monster being prepared and on its own terrain and taking advantage of it's own powers too.
Nope sacred fist is busted, he can with aoo if the enemy is brain dead.
If you think the sacred fist is busted I'd hate to see what you think of the cleric.
shroudb wrote:
As well as most dpr builds take things into account like prebuffing min/lvk spells, that usually don't works, and ultimately everyone can do it.
The only minutes per level or minute buffs I used are cast as a swift action.
shroudb wrote:
Hell! Even my own build with prebuffing has 0 rounds instead of one, and if he actually uses more than 1spell to buff can 1round most cr+2 enemies.
You had to waste a round. So it's 2 rounds.
shroudb wrote:
Lance build also has the usual limitations of being useless in 50% of the encounters.
With lithe frame, or small sized lancers with air walk statistically you should be able to charge over 90% of the time. If you're useless in 50% of encounters you need to improve your feat/spell choices.
Oh and by the way worst case situation you're still a two handed strength build with reach and combat reflexes AND a griffon animal companion.
shroudb wrote:
That's the thing with DPR builds, they look the world through rose tinted glasses that everything is in their favor, disregarding that cr is based on the monster being prepared and on its own terrain and taking advantage of it's own powers too.
No. DPR builds calculate averages in the most likely situation. 10 min/level or longer buffs and swift action/free action buffs only. Nothing is tinted in the favor of anyone. It's simply math.
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Undone can the Sacred Fist kill in 1 round accounting for the PFS ban of Pummeling Charge?
Easily unfortunately the build doesn't turn on before an agile amulet of mighty fists because you just go snake fang (Arguably more powerful) and kata monk to splice with MoMS. It's just as powerful (possibly more so at higher levels) just a lot less fun for 2-3 levels. Arguably the most powerful build is snake fang/panther style/kata monk/fortuitous+Agile AoMF since you'll have humongous AC to boot since you'll boost dex/wis but it's less straight forward, turns on a little later, and requires more investment.
I don't personally like the build but it's definitely as strong as pummeling style once you get an agile AoMF. You get statistically more attacks if you're missed once or twice over a combat. If you go first they are likely to be stuck attacking you and provoke half a dozen times. (Only slight exaggeration)
Nope sacred fist is busted, he can with aoo if the enemy is brain dead.
If you think the sacred fist is busted I'd hate to see what you think of the cleric.
shroudb wrote:
As well as most dpr builds take things into account like prebuffing min/lvk spells, that usually don't works, and ultimately everyone can do it.
The only minutes per level or minute buffs I used are cast as a swift action.
shroudb wrote:
Hell! Even my own build with prebuffing has 0 rounds instead of one, and if he actually uses more than 1spell to buff can 1round most cr+2 enemies.
You had to waste a round. So it's 2 rounds.
shroudb wrote:
Lance build also has the usual limitations of being useless in 50% of the encounters.
With lithe frame, or small sized lancers with air walk statistically you should be able to charge over 90% of the time. If you're useless in 50% of encounters you need to improve your feat/spell choices.
Oh and by the way worst case situation you're still a two handed strength build with reach and combat reflexes AND a griffon animal companion.
shroudb wrote:
That's the thing with DPR builds, they look the world through rose tinted glasses that everything is in their favor, disregarding that cr is based on the monster being prepared and on its own terrain and taking advantage of it's own powers too.
No. DPR builds calculate averages in the most likely situation. 10 min/level or longer buffs and swift action/free action buffs only. Nothing is tinted in the favor of anyone. It's simply math.
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Undone can the Sacred Fist kill in 1 round accounting for the PFS ban of Pummeling Charge?
Easily unfortunately the build doesn't turn on before an agile amulet of mighty fists because you just go snake fang (Arguably more powerful) and kata monk to splice with MoMS. It's just as powerful (possibly more so at higher levels) just a lot less fun for 2-3 levels. Arguably the most powerful build is snake fang/panther...
i do not think of sacred fist as "busted" busted, he is still excellent. but he cant 1 round someone simply because of no pounce. he is still 1 attack in first round.
Also, snake fang will usually just work once? twice?. A simple ghast has like double your intelligence, what makes you think they can't figure out "oh don't attack that guy in melee" after he sees a single of his friend melt away when he did so.
also you are forgetting that he can't bypass dr/evil until he gets an agile holy aomf, he also lacks the option to buff his weapon.
he has a lot more attacks than a simple warpriest, but the warpriest will usually have higher + to his attack, even accounting for flurry giving full bab, because of sacred weapon buffing as well as access to much cheaper weapons, as well as early access to holy weapon through his sacred weapon.
assuming both have used an extended greater magic weapon on themselves, sacred weapon will still trump aomf.
also a lot of times, combat will be restricted to a single room, that you can easily fullattack from round 1 with 35ft reach, while you still need to spend a move action with sacred fist to get there. or an enemy could just fly 15ft off the ground and neutralize you, or etcetcetc.
as for lance build, spells/feat choices do nothing for all those corners in the dungeons, or for allies being in front of you, or for the simple fact that most BBEG will have mooks infront of them and etc shenanigans that always seem to happen in real fights.
math is great when you just need to check if feat 1 is better than feat 2, but flexibility in options is much better imo in most situations.
i do not think of sacred fist as "busted" busted, he is still excellent. but he cant 1 round someone simply because of no pounce. he is still 1 attack in first round.
If you go first and are the only target in range he either provokes twice (fortuitous) or hits you and provokes even more.
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Also, snake fang will usually just work once? twice?. A simple ghast has like double your intelligence, what makes you think they can't figure out "oh don't attack that guy in melee" after he sees a single of his friend melt away when he did so.
If it works once it breaks even with pummeling charge until like 10th level (Where you get blood crow strike and pummeling charge becomes a nice but not needed ability)
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also you are forgetting that he can't bypass dr/evil until he gets an agile holy aomf, he also lacks the option to buff his weapon.
Or you could fervor align weapon good. You know since fists are your weapon.
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he has a lot more attacks than a simple warpriest, but the warpriest will usually have higher + to his attack, even accounting for flurry giving full bab, because of sacred weapon buffing as well as access to much cheaper weapons, as well as early access to holy weapon through his sacred weapon.
No. Not in the slightest. As noted align weapon bypasses DR and can be fervored on UAS. Additionally you're implying if he wanted he couldn't take crusaders flurry instead.
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assuming both have used an extended greater magic weapon on themselves, sacred weapon will still trump aomf.
Just as a note the interaction between GMW and sacred weapon is unclear. It's probable that based on RAW you add sacred weapon to the base weapon enhancement then sacred since GMW stacks with nothing. Even if that isn't the case the bonus to hit and extra attacks trump a base WP for damage easily.
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also a lot of times, combat will be restricted to a single room, that you can easily fullattack from round 1 with 35ft reach, while you still need to spend a move action with sacred fist to get there. or an enemy could just fly 15ft off the ground and neutralize you, or etcetcetc.
If an enemy is flying exactly within your reach and outside of the SF either the enemy or the sacred fist is doing something wrong.
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as for lance build, spells/feat choices do nothing for all those corners in the dungeons, or for allies being in front of you, or for the simple fact that most BBEG will have mooks infront of them and etc shenanigans that always seem to happen in real fights.
1) Yes they do.
2) Flight, rooms tend to happen in not 5 foot roofs. Go over them.
If you're only getting a charge lane half the time you're the one doing something wrong. in an average AP you should be able to charge over 80% of the time round 1 unless you lose initiative in which case you get an AOO.
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math is great when you just need to check if feat 1 is better than feat 2, but flexibility in options is much better imo in most situations.
each to his own though.
You can just do math on both situations.
In what situation does the base WP beat the animal companion of a divine commander or the base WP beat a SF or even a base WP archer?
I'm not saying the build is terrible. It's a cool build with some utility. I'm saying I can't make a build for every build which isn't great early but also has meh scaling into mid/high levels.
As far as I can see, a Sacred Fist can flurry in armour,
They absolutely can not.
ACG, SF:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability
works like the monk ability of the same name. This ability replaces sacred weapon.
Please note that is the entirety of the ability.
CRB, Monk:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can
make a f lurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses f lurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed
attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Sounds like it works.
CRB, Monk:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
So, if the Monk uses armor, no Flurry. The Warpriest works just like the Monk ability, (no exception for wearing armor given), while the Sohei, as an Archtype, has the exact same restriction, (as far as I see, looses Flurry in any Armor, even if they happen to be proficient with it.
As far as I can see, a Sacred Fist can flurry in armour,
They absolutely can not.
** spoiler omitted **
Please note that is the entirety of the ability.
** spoiler omitted **...
Your spoilered texts show exactly why it does work. The sacred fist flurry of blows works like the monk ability. No where in the monk ability flurry of blows does it mention armor. That is only mentioned in the weapon and armor proficency of monk.
If you check the FAQ for the Sohei where it was clarified they can flurry in armor you'll see why the same thing applies to sacred fist.
You cannot cast Align Weapon on your body because it says that it cannot be used for unarmed strikes or natural weapons.
Also, are you able to fervor align weapon? The impression that I got from fervor was that the spell must target you, not a weapon. If you can, though, that makes my gunslinger/warpriest significantly more powerful.
Also, are you able to fervor align weapon? The impression that I got from fervor was that the spell must target you, not a weapon. If you can, though, that makes my gunslinger/warpriest significantly more powerful.
Unfortunately you can't use Fervor with spells that target your weapon. Nor can you cast Align Weapon on an unarmed strike unless you have the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature.
Also, are you able to fervor align weapon? The impression that I got from fervor was that the spell must target you, not a weapon. If you can, though, that makes my gunslinger/warpriest significantly more powerful.
Unfortunately you can't use Fervor with spells that target your weapon. Nor can you cast Align Weapon on an unarmed strike unless you have the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature.
To be fair most of my SF builds multiclass into monk even after the "No double wis" ruling because the style feats and fuse style are very strong. (AC is shored up by mage armor wands)
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Forget align weapon, you can use Blessed Fist to overcome Good DR. And it can be cast with Fervor.
This works just as well.
@DMBeckett you can flurry in armor because the language that says you can't is in your proficiency. I believe there is a monk archetype which has this problem too (Sohei??) but it's definitely allowed.
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@Undone You should build this thing. Heck make it PFS legal and Awesome and I'll even play it and provide feedback on how it works out.
If I wasn't only replying while my oracle database was executing commands I would.
Your spoilered texts show exactly why it does work. The sacred fist flurry of blows works like the monk ability. No where in the monk ability flurry of blows does it mention armor. That is only mentioned in the weapon and armor proficency of monk.
If you check the FAQ for the Sohei where it was clarified they can flurry in armor you'll see why the same thing applies to sacred fist.
Undone wrote:
@DMBeckett you can flurry in armor because the language that says you can't is in your proficiency. I believe there is a monk archetype which has this problem too (Sohei??) but it's definitely allowed.
I'm not sure about that. Wasn't aware of the Sohei part, (which I find questionable as nothing in the Archtype really suggests it should), but at best it seems like one of the many issues that the ACG had, where it looks like the writers didn't really understand how a lot of things worked. The issue is that the SF's ability works exactly like the Monk's. That part: "This ability works like the monk ability of the same name", is what kind of seals it. The ability itself, can't be used while wearing armor, using a shield, or with a medium or heavy load. Warpriest's use it just like Monks do.
It might turn out to work that way, but it's not something I would count on until we get an official answer that changes the wording on the SF.
I didn't have a lot of time to optimize it but at higher levels you'll lose some damage on each hit (between 6 and 8 a hit based on level and items) but you should get on average 2 extra attacks per round which cause significantly more damage than the static amounts lost. You also get potential attacks before even your turn. Unfortunately as noted the build is an atrocity of a joke prior to an agile amulet and doesn't really... go off until it has a fortuitous agile amulet (it's merely really good with just agile).
Unfortunately this build is like 200% assured to caused DM metagaming and cause them to stop hitting you. Fortunately you can force them to stay around you since you're able to be enlarged and then are literally the brick wall. You can even elect to grapple or trip people "I provoke" has never been more of a bait for the GM than this build.
If he walks away you get 2 AOO's if he hits you well we'll count the AOO's you wish to take but I'm pretty sure the number for an at level monster is dead. (Parry, Snake fang, Fortuitous) The biggest loss is if you're hasted before the charge on pummeling charge makes it much closer but you should still be able to 1 round an at level target.
I understand. The FAQ was linked above. However, look over the link you posted. What at all indicated that the Archtype should be able to? It's not even thematic, and in fact opposite of the theme of the mounted Monk. Again, not arguing the FAQ on Sohei is wrong, just that in my opinion it's very odd and makes no sense. Or, in other words, based on what the Class and Archtype say, and the fluff, I really don't even see how anyone would assume that they would Flurry in armor an more than they would cast Wizard spells.
Secondly, the person that wrote the Archtype says that that was not intended, but for whatever reason Paizo ruled they can. Ok. I personally don't see it, but if that is the rule, that is the rule.
But, I wouldn't say that the Sacred Fist also gets to Flurry, based on that. There isn't really any overlap. It might turn out that way, but similar to what I said about all those other questionable things involving the Warpriest, (the Bonus Feat = Level/BaB <in all ways>, for instance), we shouldn't assume that the jumping through hoops interpretation is the right one because it's more what we want it to be rather than what it currently is. They get an ability that works exactly like a Monk. Monk's loose that ability if they wear armor.
Anyway, not going to argue about it any more, just saying it would probably be wiser to assume it doesn't work and be proven wrong later, than to assume it does just because. I wouldn't necessarily mind being wrong here, (on the SF can Flurry in Armor part), but I wouldn't count on it either, as that basically hammers the last nail in the NPC Class called Monk.
But, I wouldn't say that the Sacred Fist also gets to Flurry, based on that. There isn't really any overlap. It might turn out that way, but similar to what I said about all those other questionable things involving the Warpriest, (the Bonus Feat = Level/BaB <in all ways>, for instance), we shouldn't assume that the jumping through hoops interpretation is the right one because it's more what we want it to be rather than what it currently is. They get an ability that works exactly like a Monk. Monk's loose that ability if they wear armor.
Anyway, not going to argue about it any more, just saying it would probably be wiser to assume it doesn't work and be proven wrong later, than to assume it does just because. I wouldn't necessarily mind being wrong here, (on the SF can Flurry in Armor part), but I wouldn't count on it either, as that basically hammers the last nail in the NPC Class called Monk.
I'm airing on the side of caution. I'm not making the build right now but it definitely works as others have noted.
Forget align weapon, you can use Blessed Fist to overcome Good DR. And it can be cast with Fervor.
and that puts you in exactly the same action economy as a standard warpriest.
that's what i'm getting.
don't get me wrong, sacred fist is awesome, and flavorful.
but generic warpriest is more or less the same thing in a lot of situations in pfs play.
outside of pfs, with pummeling charge he edges ahead due to pounce. but he has worse ac.
the whole argument started with if 90-140 single target damage is enough by lvl12, which i still believe is more than fine given the added utility of huge reach and aoe damage.
even if not globaling someone, the rest of the party can usually finish him off.
as for lances and stuff getting off 80% of the time, i usually don't play official APs, but from those i've played, encounters are so undertuned that yeah... even a simple warpriest can global things.
so yeah, maybe in official APs lance build is great because he gets off all his attacks, but in official APs warpriests are also great because things just die fine without a lance hit either way.
And with Spell Perfection you can have a quickened Kamehamehaaa or Hadouken.
First round cast divine power quieckened(up to +7 hit and damage, full baba, extra attack), start casting blood crow strike(Kame-hame...)
Second round, just before it unleash blood crow strike(...haaaaa!) with power attack and pummeling strike(preferably with dragon style from that MoMS dip and use your swift action to unleash just another, and you round to start casting again... 16 effective attacks per round, divided on 2 groups of 8... pummeling style will make sure that fire resistance be negligible and only fire immunity be of any value.
@Undone You should build this thing. Heck make it PFS legal and Awesome and I'll even play it and provide feedback on how it works out.
A quick write up with no real optimization put into it for PFS. It could easily be modified.
** spoiler omitted **...
One problem I see. Snake Style uses your reaction which eats your next Swift action. Snake Fang uses your reaction which means they have to miss you without you using Snake Style.
I presume Extra Panache was supposed to be something different.
@Undone You should build this thing. Heck make it PFS legal and Awesome and I'll even play it and provide feedback on how it works out.
A quick write up with no real optimization put into it for PFS. It could easily be modified.
** spoiler omitted **...
One problem I see. Snake Style uses your reaction which eats your next Swift action. Snake Fang uses your reaction which means they have to miss you without you using Snake Style.
I presume Extra Panache was supposed to be something different.
Snake style is unused most of the time. It's just a stepping stone to Snake Fang, and the feat is filler. Replace as needed. Pirahna strike would be best but I was lazy and didn't know if it would work.
