Many users on this forum (including myself) have argued the importance of the two statistics that are Strength and Dexterity, and the roles they play (or can play). This is especially true in the cases of combat, when you have melee-oriented characters trying to find methods to get more out of their Dexterity while reducing their need for Strength.
Some players are convinced that allowing, for example, Dexterity to Attack and Damage rolls is overpowering, removing the need for having a Strength score, and upsetting the balance against characters who don't attempt such concepts. Others believe that the implementation of such options is not only a common sense subject, but also still falls under the realms of inoptimization.
As such, this thread has been created to discuss the concept of contrast between both Strength to Attack/Damage and Dexterity to Attack/Damage.
Adding Dexterity to both attack and damage in melee leaves the following nonexhaustive list of things to take care of:
1. Carrying capacity
2. A few skill checks
3. Raw Strength checks to, e.g., break things
4. Feat prerequisites
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Dex-focused gives you 1 stat for AC, Reflex saves, Initiative, ranged attack, melee attack, melee damage (and possibly ranged), and some valuable skills (Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Stealth).
Str-focused gives you 1 stat for melee attack, melee damage, ranged damage (and possibly attack with throwing weapons), some mediocre (but occasionally important) skills (Climb, Swim), carrying capacity, and checks to break things.
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As long as the DEX based damage is capped at 1x Modifier and 2:1 Power Attack/Piranha Strike, as well as .5x Modifier for "off-hand" damage, it will always be a sub-optimal option from a pure DPR perspective.
The importance of skill checks is situational (who cares about stealth/acrobatics/escape artist when you've been thrown overboard), and really comes down to the specific game and play style - so let's call it moot for now.
So that leaves 1 save, initiative, AC, Touch AC, ranged attack (usually?); all at the expense of one of the most sought after resources in the game (feats) and increased damage.
I'm not an optimizer, but I still don't think it's a fair trade... I do it for RP reasons though.
I often hear the cross argument of STR equals best because of 1/2 extra mod to 2h attacks, but most of my gamers focus on Dex builds, and for good reason honestly;
It's more proficency for your Points worth. Str really only contributes to your Melee, (It does add to ranged damage, but often people with high enough strength scores to make that a factor end up using Swords over bows), and carrying capacity. Str check to break it rarely comes up; (Break out of jail? Disable Device and Escape Artist work for that. Beyond that, it's Take 20 Time.)
As well; Swim is either rarely a worry; or else easy mitigated. In Skull and Shackles, I never failed a swim check because I could always take 10, and Half elves can get massive racial bonuses to swim. Climb gets exclipsed by Flight later on.
If Strength was useful to more things then the above, Dex builds might be a lot less prevalent. As it stands now though; 5/8 of my players rely on Dex builds at all times. I personally am fond of a middle of the road with my point buy, and use enhancements to be a jack-of-all-trades type. (16 Str, 16 Dex is common for me)
The thing is that if a strength build really wants to, they can spend a couple of feats(which, incidentally, is exactly how many are required for dex builds) to shore up their poor reflex save and initiative if they choose.
the issue here, is that substituting dex for str for almost everything except a very few skills it is needed for, ultimately makes the STR stat irrelevant and useless if you can do more with a single other stat (DEX). because of this, you currently have to pay a "feat tax" and "build tax" to acomplish this. this is a balance issue. and a damned good bit of balance it is. imagine a character such as a barbarian that didn't need STR, and instead loaded everything he had into DEX and CON...if this character never needed to take feats, or design his build around accomplishing this, then that would leave ALOT of space open for those things that 1) he didnt have space for because of the dex build, 2)all those things that a STR build already benefits from. So now we have a barbarian that can pump his dex to 35-50, wear no armor, and hit just as hard, if not harder, than a STR build, with a single stat. just from combat alone, we have something thats literally better than both current builds combined. now take into consideration all the stats and abilities that rely on dex compared to the ones that rely on str. you are giving up alot less than you are getting.
as far as the two builds separate from one another go, they both have their merits. a STR build with always be the better and more versatile option for combat and DPR. the Dex build gives you fewer options to build with, but makes a good combatant and adds skill versatility to the equation. the question is really down to how do you want to play. are you the guy who wants options inside the initiative ad who hits the hardest, or the one who wants options before/after the fight?
For me, Dex builds are always gonna be my prefered martial option, mostly cause flavor.
That said, balance wise I think DEX replacing STR is okay in most circumstances, but understand that making it universal is an issue. Shifting focus in terms of stats greatly helps certain classes whom are MAD(monks and rogues for example), as such classes are notorious for requiring a degree in system mastery to compete with other optimized builds. However, some builds can become so SAD that it can invalidate other options and that is where ite becomes an issue. We need certain classes to get this "patch", but the ease of entry into such options shouldn't be so restrictive as it is now.
On that point, I also hate Feat Taxes. People say they balance such options, but I think PF systemically bloats with the needed chains. I would prefer if it was intergrated with the classes that need it, in perhaps the form of archetypes, rather than charge players more feats. I think if, Rogues, Fighters, and Monks, had Dex focusing available from level 1, we likely would not get such complaints about them.
That's my 2P.
The thing is that if a strength build really wants to, they can spend a couple of feats(which, incidentally, is exactly how many are required for dex builds) to shore up their poor reflex save and initiative if they choose.
true, but they still suffer from the lack of high skill usage given that there are not only more skills total that rely on dex, but they happen to be some of the more useful ones. swim, climb, etc are honestly useless skills in most cases, so having a high STR is really unnecessarily. acrobatics, fly, and ride, on the other hand, are far more useful in the average campaign, and often require high skill checks to be made. acrobatics namely so. avoiding an AoO via that skill is something any melee combatant would love. couple that with a high AC for the dex build and it really starts to outshine a STR build...
Sorry for not being able to contribute my findings, I have been busy with other things. That being said, I'll start with the comparison and contrast of Yeti1069's post.
Dex-focused gives you 1 stat for AC, Reflex saves, Initiative, ranged attack, melee attack, melee damage (and possibly ranged), and some valuable skills (Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Stealth).
In comparison to a Str-focused character, the difference in AC is minimal, if actually existing. Assuming a +8 Dexterity Modifier by 10th level, you would be forced to wear lighter armor to get usage out of your modifier, as your bonus to armor is limited by your Maximum Dexterity bonus. For example, Darkleaf Cloth Leather Armor would be the most optimal Dexterity to Armor Bonus ratio, given it matches your +8 Dexterity Modifier, it comes with a mere +2 Armor Bonus. Most Strength builds take a Full Plate armor with having only 12 Dexterity, having only a +1 Dexterity Modifier, the cap for Full Plate, it still comes with a +9 AC, equating the grand total of the lighter-armor, Dexterity-focused character, which is +10 AC (before enhancements and such). This can change with other subjects, such as Shields, but aren't really exclusive to both build types.
As attempts to remedy the situation, not many subjects can increase the amount of Maximum Dexterity Bonus that is on armor, and if they do, it increases it across all armors, not just lighter ones, meaning the net scale difference resulting from Dexterity-focused to Strength-focused remains unchanged. Another alternative is to equip Bracers of Armor for +8 AC, though you may miss out on some of the more decent properties, like Deathless, or possibly some neat wrist slot items.
Regarding Reflex Saves, most characters just run with a Cloak of Resistance of the appropriate scale to counteract effects that rely on that statistic. Most Dex-focused classes will have fewer hit points than those who are not, so the success to fail ratio on Dexterity builds may marginally higher or lower, depending on how invested they are. Of course, this only applies to subjects which rely on such, and aren't too plentiful in circumstance.
Initiative can be a big difference, though there are several means around this, such as class features, a feat/trait, etc. that make the Strength-focused guy keep up. At the very least, it makes a Dexterity-focused character not have to invest in it, though they will end up doing so anyway, given the concept of rocket tag by the endgame.
Str-focused gives you 1 stat for melee attack, melee damage, ranged damage (and possibly attack with throwing weapons), some mediocre (but occasionally important) skills (Climb, Swim), carrying capacity, and checks to break things.
Strength for Attack Rolls with Throwing Weapons I believe requires either a feat or a specific magic item. In either case, it does require other extensive investment in compromise for either feats or prized slot items, and it runs into similar problems with cases such as TWF, and those two build types are rarely considered, much less created to be of any use.
Climb and Swim have some uses in the low levels. They lose their value at about 6th or 7th level when everyone can fly, teleport, walk over water, etc. Unless of course, you're stuck in an AMF or you're playing an underwater campaign. But the former doesn't happen until the endgame, and you'll be prepared for it; the latter comes few and far between, and if it does, you'll know what you're in for, and plan accordingly.
Carrying Capacity is the biggest issue for Dexterity-focused builds. Although they won't be carrying as heavy of stuff, if they dump their Strength below 10 (some builds could afford to do this if they build a certain way), they run into encumberance issues, defeating the entire purpose of building Dexterity, and serves as a proper lower level balancer, especially for those levels where one does not have Dexterity to Attack and Damage online, or special materials like Mithril or Darkleaf Cloth.
I understand that I didn't say anything about the damage aspect, and that's because it deserves its own post; it will take me a bit to double-check the numbers to make sure they come out correctly.
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I think people tend to overvalue acrobatics to be honest. Its very hard to maintain a competitive edge when you use acrobatics in combat due to the way CMD works, and every other use of acrobatics requires far less focus and investment. If you fully focus on dexterity and take skill focus acrobatics, your character still can't just run around the battlefield.
I was also under the impression that you could not invest in flight without some means of actually flying, which makes the flight skill really more about tracking the flight spell most of the time. There are instances where this isn't true, but I feel as though that is a corner case at best.
To add to the damage aspect disparity: Strength builds aren't limited to what they can use for weapons, leaving them open to several different sets of builds, such as high damage dice weapons for Vital Strike builds, high multipliers for critical fishing, special properties for combat maneuvers, or a combination of those. It can also be used straight away, not having to jump through hoops or needing to expend resources, meaning any resources they are left with can be used for other, more important aspects, or to improve an already base aspect, resulting in an overall net gain when comparing total benefits.
Dexterity is severely limited; having significantly reduced damage dice is a real killer in the early game, because such options are the only ones available for Dexterity, in addition to being forced to rely on Strength, as it takes time and resources for Dexterity to come online, and by the time it reaches late game, they can only be reliant on static bonuses, since the design choices revolving around an increased Dexterity aren't supported with increased damage dice or the like. It also won't have as much static bonuses due to the restricting options for Dexterity, such as Enlarge/Reduce Person. Their ability to be good with maneuvers also requires even more investment with feats or abilities, hurting their net damage dealt further. Did I mention their extra investments generally have fairly extensive pre-requisites?
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I personally dislike melee DEX-to-damage builds, and will never play one myself. I also admit to being biased against them when I GM.
Why bother being biased? A DEX to damage build doesn't really need you to be actively working against it to be less relevant in combat than a STR build. They accomplish that inherently.
Dotting for later reading and posting.
And as a quick note: 1.5x Power Attack is a feature of two-handers, which you can build as Dex. But yeah, generally a strength theme.
I'm not a fan of Dex to damage.I do like to play high dex characters but I feel like the "Mighty warrior" is an institution that needs to be maintained.
I do not allow dex to damage in any game I run,but I don't begrudge others their fun.
I do use the called shot rules and a lot of other adjustments that make precision striking more viable.
I feel like Conan the barbarian should always hit harder than Zorro.
It seems like Paizo was highly reluctant to let it fly for a while...but eventually caved to consumer demand.I think the reluctance is reflected in the someone wonky rules structure/feat wording.
To the OP's question,I think allowing dex to dmg undermines the value of choosing a str build by tying offense and defense to the same stat and is easily exploitable.Making Dex builds hands down better.
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Slotless muleback cords cost 2000gp or 1500gp to add onto a cloak of resistance and is able to be made as per RAW. Makes carrying capacity a fairly moot point. If anyone has craft wondrous items it's 750gp to throw onto another cloak.
Custom magic item creation is expressly under DM control.
Most DM's will say no.
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Slotless muleback cords cost 2000gp or 1500gp to add onto a cloak of resistance and is able to be made as per RAW. Makes carrying capacity a fairly moot point. If anyone has craft wondrous items it's 750gp to throw onto another cloak.Custom magic item creation is expressly under DM control.
Most DM's will say no.
Combining existing items is perfectly legal provided they both occupy the same slot, and have no special limitations.
Most GMs will say yes.
Dex based builds mostly work in skill monkeys that are suffering from MAd issues or urban barbarians (which are weaker than normal ones).
Precisely the argument I make for stating Dex to Attack and Damage isn't gamebreaking; it is limited by other aspects of the game, and most people don't see it until it actually affects them.
And you are correct on the Urban Barbarian aspect; although their ability score adjustments are more flexible and provide better defensive capabilities (not limited in skills, no AC penalty, but at the cost of the Will Save increase normally associated), the net amount is significantly reduced; where a normal Barbarian would get +4 to Strength and Constitution, an Urban Barbarian would be at +2 each if using direct comparison, though also has the option of applying it to Dexterity as well, and that scale is only going to get worse when you throw in TWF feat taxes to maximize the application of your static bonuses (the only source of solid damage you can apply, by the way), the scaling differences when Greater and Mighty Rage come into play, etc.
@ Nicos: I can't speak for them, but my GM has allowed our group to combine magic items into a slot. I believe he limited it to one combination per slot (that is, you can only combine two items for a given slot to comprise the single item to take up the slot), so as to keep things simple, but don't quote me on that. I just might test it to see if I can get Boots of the Battle Herald + Boots of Speed (@ CL 20) + Feather Step Slippers combined into a mega pair of sabatons, but that won't be until much later.
I have always been the fan of this mod:
At chargen, select either Dex or Str to handle:
* AC bonus
* Ref bonus
* Init bonus
The other then handles:
* To-hit bonus
* Damage bonus
...and so on. Once assigned, this may not be changed. If they chose Str for their Ref bonus, etc. package, it could be explained as being strong enough to move more quickly (70 and 20 year olds will move their legs about the same rate and pattern; it's the force with which they strike the ground and then lift off that has the greater impact on their speed).
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The issue is that there's only 6 ability scores, three mental, three physical. It helps make the game streamlined and quicker to play. But makes balance a little trickier. Many other RPG rules systems have more abilities, one for to hit one for adding damage and another for adding defense. With only the three physical stats, one as toughness, the other two have to determine offense, defense, and power. That's three things to divide between two abilities. So no wonder things get a little wonky when you try to change an already slightly wonky system.
I've found Dex to Damage looks good on the surface and works well higher point build but on 15 point build it has several draw backs. One is you need strength at 10 just doesn't cut. 12 or 13 at minimum, going 13 allows power attack. you want to max you dex, 16 cost you 10 points, 3 for Str and 2 for Con. You can make a decent fighter with that but try and make a Magus. You still want that Str, you need even more now that you have a spell book and spell components at 5 extra pounds. That dex drops to 14 so you can have int of 14. You +2 to Int to get 16. So now you are 13 and 14 for Str and Dex. Is it really worth 2 feats to get +1 to hit and damage? You could play a Elf dropping you con to 10 and getting 16 Dex that could be worth it. But you see it's a debate. That makes this not a bad thing.
Everything goes in favor of Dex of Damage as soon as you go higher stats via rolling or point build.
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Many users on this forum (including myself) have argued the importance of the two statistics that are Strength and Dexterity, and the roles they play (or can play). This is especially true in the cases of combat, when you have melee-oriented characters trying to find methods to get more out of their Dexterity while reducing their need for Strength.
Some players are convinced that allowing, for example, Dexterity to Attack and Damage rolls is overpowering, removing the need for having a Strength score, and upsetting the balance against characters who don't attempt such concepts. Others believe that the implementation of such options is not only a common sense subject, but also still falls under the realms of inoptimization.
As such, this thread has been created to discuss the concept of contrast between both Strength to Attack/Damage and Dexterity to Attack/Damage.
Speaking in the Long-Term of things, STR will win in terms of damage, especially considering you get any choice of Weapon(as long as you're proficient... well to avoid the -4 for not being proficient), and you can stack the Str multipliers from different styles/feats/spells/abilities/forms to dish out some disgusting Static damage. It's just fantastic! However, most STR builds don't come with the greatest AC, or that AC lasts until a certain level and it really just doesn't matter anymore because they can't obtain the Golden AC of Level+20 to 25. Thankfully, you can get straight to your favorite feats with STR builds.
DEX can "kind of" make up for it, with the high AC(slightly more survivable depending on the class and abilities), and then the extra AoOs with something like Snake Fang. They can still get their Dex damage Just as high as Str damage, but sadly without the Multipliers that a STR based character can acquire. There are some Spells/Forms to enhance DEX at least, but once the Multipliers set in for STR it just skyrockets past DEX as far as static damage. Then there is the Feat Cost and Weapon Enchantment cost for being Dex based, and the evil DEX weapon restrictions. Once you go all DEX things get pretty quirky. It's a funky tradeoff, but it can certainly work just fine in the long-term. The nice thing with the combination of Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes on a DEX character, is that you can do a number of maneuvers or abilities(stunning fist, punishing kick, etc) in place of the typical unarmed strike. That helps the DEX build become more diverse. Of course, then you're losing out on STR based maneuvers by a good bit. Thankfully, DEX applies to your Reflex Saves, whereas STR does nothing for saves.
I really can't say Dex builds would be OP. STR will still always surpass them in damage.
If you want, I could do a level 15 2h Barb vs level 15 Sacred Fist and find out! I can compare the Str damage vs the Dex damage. It'd give me something to do here at work at least... but you'd have to help me out with the BARB build, as I'm not too familiar with what most Barbarians use for Archetypes or Dips.
As for the Allowance of DEX to Damage... I can't say that'd be very fair. I think Condensing DEX to Attack/Damage to ONE feat and allowing One-Handed/Light/Natural Weapons is perfectly fair, and shouldn't upset the balance.
That's my opinion and experiences! I hope it helps :)
"Also, there's slightly better magic item support for str builds. A str build usually wants their belt slot to be str, or str+ something else. And there's a chest slot item that gives +2 dex. So for a str build, that's neat and sorted - you can buff your primary and secondary without getting into the two stat belts. Or you can do a two stat belt and buff str+con. It's nice.
Whereas for a dex build, if you wanted a +2 str item while setting your belt to dex, you seem to be out of luck (unless custom items are allowed in your game, or I'm missing something important). "
The chest item costs 8000gp,+2 belt str =4000, a belt of perfection +2 (all physical stats)= 16,000, so really a dex based character could have it all too.
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I already made SOME math:
They are not properly optimized, perhaps, but it's something.
Do me a huge favor, and pit your best STR Fighter or Barb vs my Level 15 MoMS-MoSM-Monk/2+Sacred Fist/13!!
*************************************************************************** ************
Dex Character Coming Soon...
*************************************************************************** ************
I'm not sure what this accomplishes, but I'm intrigued now!
I assume we can settle on these Magic/Wonderous Items:
Cloak of Resistance +5
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Ring of Deflection +5
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
One weapon, Enchanted how you wish
One Shield and Armor Enchanted how you wish
Yah?
Pretty sure I could build a character specially designed to screw yours up XD
But it's not the point of the thread, is it!
Design him for Mooks : PPretty sure I could build a character specially designed to screw yours up XD
But it's not the point of the thread, is it!
Well, that's the thing. You build a Fighter to deal with hordes of mooks, with a ton of flat-footed armor and AOE damage.
You build a Monk for single-target lockdown. If you don't build a special boss-fighter uh Fighter, then he's probably getting thrashed.
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I'm sure I have a couple of 15th level fighter somewhere, what do you want to compare and how that is related to the dex vs str issue?That's fine! I'm just comparing is all. I'm more focused on the Str vs Dex outcome.
"Monks" can be built differently for the same thing. No worries.
The two characters, entirely, but based on STR vs DEX. : P I really want to see how they vary from one another.... outside of the very obvious Class part. It's not competition, just a comparison.
The two characters, entirely, but based on STR vs DEX. : P I really want to see how they vary from one another.... outside of the very obvious Class part. It's not competition, just a comparison.I'm sure I have a couple of 15th level fighter somewhere, what do you want to compare and how that is related to the dex vs str issue?That's fine! I'm just comparing is all. I'm more focused on the Str vs Dex outcome.
"Monks" can be built differently for the same thing. No worries.
Still waiting on you to post yours!
PS: Each round spell buffing is going to be subtracted from DPR!
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i am contemplating the middle ground, as follows:
*Finesse is a weapon quality - user may key either ST or DX to hit
*Maneuvers divided into Power maneuvers and Finesse maneuvers (PA or CE)
*Weapon Finesse enables DX-to-damage, but, low ST penalties apply and no 1.5x
*Agile Maneuvers turns Power maneuvers into Finesse maneuvers
*Special feats (Dervish Dance) can grant the Finesse quality to certain weapons
*TWF consolidated into single feat (basic + improved + greater)
thus, the DX-fighter still has a few feats to invest in - down from several feats in the standard rule system.
Conan still hits harder than Zorro.