Better than the Fighter and Rogue, but not overpowered in the slightest. But for this particular situation:
Target his flat-footed AC/CMD, or his terrible Fort and Will saves. Charmed Life only gets him a +2 on saves and locks out his Swift Action on the following turn.
He's spent pretty big on AC but forgot a Cloak of Resistance, which is probably why his AC is higher than the others. Also Bracers of Armor do not stack with regular armor, as both provide an Armor bonus.
Can you post the Fighter and Rogue character sheets as well? Unless the Fighter has a much lower Con, or there was a major difference in their HD rolls, their hit points should be about the same. The Rogue, assuming average rolls, would only have 5 HP less at the same Con score. The only way this character has 64 HP is above average rolls on HD (max HP at first level, average rolls for the rest, +12 from Con, and +6 from Favored Class, would leave him at 55).
This belongs in the Advice section more than here I think but I don't know how to move threads.
If you want the Fighter to look better against the Swashbuckler then get rid of the "15-Minute Workday."
An advantage the Fighter and Rogue have over almost every other class, particularly at low levels, is that they have no resource pools. As long as their health remains high, they can fight all day. (this is also important for the Martial-Caster Disparity.)
The swashbuckler is most powerful when using his panache features which is run by a small pool. When it runs out then the Swashbuckler is most a fighter with less bonus feats and a bad Fort Save.
Panache points are regained every time the character confirms a crit, or drops an enemy to 0 HP.
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Paunch points can be regained through completing dares as well.
Swashbucklers are great as a piercing 1handed or light weapon fighter who rely less on feats and more on wits and luck.
Fighters though are wonderful as 2h weapon users. Shield and board users. And even 1handed weapon users.
I find it annoying when people try to equate "15 minute work days" as basically saying "Noob tube user" and that anyone who has semi-limited resources obviously is only doing well because of a 15 minute work day.
And that fighters and rogues don't have any 'resource pools'. Cept they do, its called hit points. When they run out, everyone is at most, an inanimate object. Not to mention the large number of talents rogues have that are only usable a few times per day.
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It looks like you have a party of three really terrible characters, actually... As has been stated the Swash's fort and will saves are atrocious. I'm pretty sure he's over carrying capacity with all that adventuring gear, too.
Do your group rolls for hp instead of taking the average? i ask this because his hitpoints indicate a lot of lucky rolls.
Other than hit points:
His attack roll is correct, his damage roll is correct (it becomes 1d8+16 when he has at least one panache point remaining and the enemy is sneak attack-able), his AC is (now) correct.
Now compared to the other two characters:
1) You are now starting to go into levels where the rogue is going to start not being so good, and the things are only going to get worse for the rogue, the player will need high levels of system mastery and access to a lot of books in order to keep up, this might help.
2) Now about the fighter:
If he is a two handed fighter, his AC should be a couple points lower than the swashbuckler's, his hit points should be equal if not higher but if in your group you roll for hit points then things can get thrown out of order, his attack roll should be the same but his damage should be higher (something like 2d6+19) and more importantly, that damage would be the same all the time and not only when the enemy is sneak attack-able.
If the fighter is sword and shield, his AC should be a couple points higher than the swashbuckler's, what i said about hit points above, his attack roll should be the same, his damage should be roughly the same as the swashbuckler's (1d8+17).
I can't tell you more unless we see the character sheets of the fighter and the rogue.
The one thing I see that doesn't add up is that he is completely ignoring the encumbrance rules. Have him fill in the weight for everything in his inventory, leave just the number in each of these blanks (if you put "6" a myth-weavers sheet will total things up correctly, but "6lb" doesn't parse as a number to it).
Fill that in correctly and you should see his AC suddenly plummet, he loses access to all his deeds, and his speed drops to 20'.
His damage, meanwhile is actually too low if I'm reading this right. +1 (weapon) +6 (slashing grace) +1 (weapon training), +1 (weapon spec), +6 (precise strike)= 1d8+15, 2d8+24 on a crit.
Which is, incidentally, totally on par for martial types. If he were a fighter built along the same lines, he'd be doing something like 2d4+18 with power attack.
I'd definitely audit the other PCs sheets and make sure they aren't selling themselves short. You'd be amazed how many first-time players' sheets I've seen where they weren't adding their strength bonus in to anything.
The one thing I see that doesn't add up is that he is completely ignoring the encumbrance rules. Have him fill in the weight for everything in his inventory, leave just the number in each of these blanks (if you put "6" a myth-weavers sheet will total things up correctly, but "6lb" doesn't parse as a number to it).
Fill that in correctly and you should see his AC suddenly plummet, he loses access to all his deeds, and his speed drops to 20'.
His damage, meanwhile is actually too low if I'm reading this right. +1 (weapon) +6 (slashing grace) +1 (weapon training), +1 (weapon spec), +6 (precise strike)= 1d8+15, 2d8+24 on a crit.
Which is, incidentally, totally on par for martial types. If he were a fighter built along the same lines, he'd be doing something like 2d4+18 with power attack.
I'd definitely audit the other PCs sheets and make sure they aren't selling themselves short. You'd be amazed how many first-time players' sheets I've seen where they weren't adding their strength bonus in to anything.
Weapon specialization adds 2 points of damage, not 1.
Precise strike isn't always applicable and it doesn't multiply on a critical hit.I am checking the encumbrance now but i don't it would change things because even if he is over the light load, he could simply divide his gear and give it to his teamates to carry.
EDIT: i did the math on the items he carrying now and he is indeed at heavy load, but if he gives the 25 torches (who carries 25 torches?) and a few other other items like the rope, the trail rations and his blanket to his companions he well within his light load.
First: he got a terrible will save, like atrocious. Make any bad guy cast hold person on him and he is toast.
Yep. That will save is his Achilles heel. And smart spellcasting BBEGs should know that warrior types, especially those who are lightly armored- often do have terrible will saves.
Glitterdust. Hold.
In any case, he will need to learn and take Iron Will next level.
Why carry 25 torches when you can just carry 1 everburning torch?
Swarms?
First: he got a terrible will save, like atrocious. Make any bad guy cast hold person on him and he is toast.
Yep. That will save is his Achilles heel. And smart spellcasting BBEGs should know that warrior types, especially those who are lightly armored- often do have terrible will saves.
Glitterdust. Hold.
In any case, he will need to learn and take Iron Will next level.
Or he could take Steadfast Personality. The number of Will saves that aren't mind-affecting abilities is fairly small. (Baleful Polymorph comes to mind.)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Paunch points can be regained through completing dares as well.
Paunch points are regained by spending time on the couch and eating an extra helping of dessert. Spending a long weekend gaming with a bag of Cheetos and Oreos is also a quick way to pick up some Paunch points.
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easily outdoing the fighter with vital strike and the rogue, who both have far less armor and health than him at the same time.
Vital strike will usually do less damage than alternative methods of damage. And rogues do less damage then people with full BAB as a general rule. So it just sounds like you have a swashbuckler that know's what he's doing and a fighter and rogue you who don't as much. But as other's have said. It's hard to see exactly why with only the one character sheet.
I'm not sure if this belongs in the beginner box, but since I've never posted here before I'm not all that familiar. Either way,
I just recently started a campaign, we began at level 6 and one of my players got the new handbook and immediately chose this class.
Right after taking a look at his character sheet I noticed just how much health and attack bonus he had, which is to say almost 60 and apparently a plus 16 to every attack, but he also has higher damage on every attack than any other character in the party by far, easily outdoing the fighter with vital strike and the rogue, who both have far less armor and health than him at the same time.
His to hit and hp should be just about even with the fighter, if its higher, he eitherh as better gear, better stats, or the fighter didnt choose his options well. Also I am not sure what you mean by +16 to every attack, he should only get +16 to his first attack in a turn, the second one should be at +11 (assuming all the math in the character is right). And there is simply no way the swashbucklers damage should be comparable to that of the fighter, since the fighter can use combat styles other then one handed single weapon combat. Is it possible the difference of their attack bonuses is because of thingsl ike power attack or two weapon fighting that the fighter is using and the swashbuckler is not?
The rogue on the other hand isnt a good comparison. Aside from the fact that is the weakest class in the game, its also not a primary combatant. Ofcourse the full bab d10 hit die swashbuckler is going to be better at fighting then the rogue. The rogue is a skills character first and a combatant second.
I just don't understand how this class is balanced, as the absolute only weakness I can find to it is pure magic, but since I haven't had them encounter any casters yet, I'm not sure if he has some trick for those as well. I'm just looking for advice for how to deal with how absurdly powerful this class seems to me right now.
The same way you deal witha fighter/paladin/barbarian with similar ac and attack outputs, all of them should be comparable numerically. Its possible this player is just more accustomed to optimization then the rest of your group is, but its not the class thats doing it.
He has all the same weaknesses any melee character has, possibly moreso since he has fewer options, attacks at range, things that fly, things that do combat manuevers or are mobile instead of just standing there and slugging it out with them, things with lots of hp or lots of ac, or damage reduction, or are immune to precision damage, or any of the many monsters that cause will saves, as well as spell casters that cuase will saves.
And there is simply no way the swashbucklers damage should be comparable to that of the fighter, since the fighter can use combat styles other then one handed single weapon combat.
This is true for a while. But then the Swashbuckler gets to add his level to all damage rolls made with light or one-handed piercing weapons in addition to his weapon training damage, Dexterity(thanks to slashing grace), Weapon Speacialzation, and Power Attack(assuming a 13 Str).
The true equalizer is the fact that the Swashbuckler can not dual wield and still get his level to damage.
They do not use a 2 hander so there goes a bit of damage.
They can not dual wield even thou they are more than likely going to be dex based.
You have to build around having just piercing for the most part.
Against precision immune enemies their damage drops a good bit.
Their bonus to damage from level does not multiply.
Their will save is garbage and does not really have a reason to pump Wisdom.
Weapon selection is VERY small compared to a fighter.
Can not use a shield more than a buckler despite not being able to dual wield or 2 hand.
AC will be similar at low levels but nimble does not keep up with armor training.However a Fighter:
has the option to dual wield which is a HUGE damage boost, much better than adding a level to damage, especially against precision immune.
Can get 2 weapon rend which is very nice
wear much better armor due to Armor Training
Has enough feats to do something other than just melee, such as ranged backup
Does not matter what they are fighting, their damage is consistent.In the end If you want to build a duelist type character, that uses 1 weapon, and doesn't dual wield even though they have the stats for it, yes a Swashbuckler is about even with a fighter. That is however, just about all the swashbuckler is going to do, so it should be on par if not a hair ahead.
Um... Last time I checked dual wielding, using two weapons, is usually worse then using a two handed weapon. Dual wielding uses a lot of feats and the fighter, while having a fair amount of static bonuses, doesn't make as much use of two-weapons at others can. Also it really splits your stats. A fighter can go all str and con with low dex, trying to two-weapon means you need enough dex for all the Pre-reqs. Now I guess you could go two-weapon dex based. But two weapons are also expensive, since you need twice as much to enhance for equal weapons.
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They are not overpowered at all. They have an awesome boost to damage that is both precision based and restricts your weapon usage. They are encouraged to be DEX based witch can restrict access to power attack. They are either stuck using the worst damage type, spending a feat for slashing damage, or using a terrible crit range with a morningstar for class abilities to work. They have two poor saves, and the new feats that help alleviate that either do not cover all uses of will saves, or cost an immediate action and leave you staggered.
They LOOK powerful. In play they are limited by the class weaknesses.
If you check the numbers dual wielding destroys 2H weapon in DPR, but only at high levels (like 12+)
Only in a game that isn't based on 3.5. Because in games based on 3.5 like say Pathfinder, the numbers have been run for over a decade and Power Attacking Two-handed fighting has been the undisputed champion.
Fighter doesn't get any additional bonus damage, which is the only way that Two-Weapon Fighting can even pretend to compete with Two-Handed Fighting and thus the Fighter is never going to be the best Two-Weapon Fighter. This is not an issue of high gold versus low gold, or low point buy versus high point buy (although high point *does* help Two-Weapon Fighting, it's not significant on it's own and certainly not something a mere 10 points is going to change) THF has been the best since 3.5 and its a function of the way the rules work, not the gold in play.
Ok Whisperknives, since you are so sure of yourself show us the math you have done that prove your sayings.
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Yes. Swashbuckler is overpowered.
The problem with these comparisons is that they’re always made against the most optimized example possible. A swashbuckler built with a moderate amount of system mastery when paired side by side against any other martial class is going to blow them out of the water. No, he’s not without his weaknesses but it’s still far too powerful.
I suggest you ban swashbuckler until your group gets a bit more experience under their belt.
Ok Whisperknives, since you are so sure of yourself show us the math you have done that prove your sayings.
Don't derail this thread more guys. If you want take it to a new thread about two-handed vs two-weapon. Don't take over this thread please.
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Yes. Swashbuckler is overpowered.
The problem with these comparisons is that they’re always made against the most optimized example possible. A swashbuckler built with a moderate amount of system mastery when paired side by side against any other martial class is going to blow them out of the water. No, he’s not without his weaknesses but it’s still far too powerful.
I suggest you ban swashbuckler until your group gets a bit more experience under their belt.
How much system mastery does it require for you to pump your STR, get the biggest weapon you can find and take power attack?
I tend to think those classes are overpowered too (except maybe brawler) but that's not the point of this thread.
So if all these classes are overpowered what martial class isn't overpowered to you?
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Yes. Swashbuckler is overpowered.
The problem with these comparisons is that they’re always made against the most optimized example possible. A swashbuckler built with a moderate amount of system mastery when paired side by side against any other martial class is going to blow them out of the water. No, he’s not without his weaknesses but it’s still far too powerful.
I suggest you ban swashbuckler until your group gets a bit more experience under their belt.
Right, thats like banning Wizard because someone who is playing rogue decide to use his rogue talents on estroic scholar, and skill focuses, pumped his int to 18, and dropped his str/dex.
You're basically stomping on person's fun, because someone else has no idea what they are doing.
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My only experience with Swashbuckler was a Rapier-Wielder vs. constructs and undead. It was utterly useless.
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Undead arent immune to sneak attacks/precision damage in pathfinder (Unless they were incorporeal?)
Edit: @ Whisperknives: I haven't looked to in depth at build that yet, but if by Iron Jaw you mean Strong Jaw, it doesn't work on unarmed attacks. Natural attacks only. It also can't be made permanent. I will say that that damage is a bit low (compared to a similarly optimized Two Hander) especially considering the incorrect application of strong jaw to unarmed attacks.
Permanized Iron Jaw permanency can't do this, and I think you meant strong jaw.
Manual of Gainful Exercise doesn't stack with strength of beast.
you can't use touch of rage and attack the same round.
your power attack is wrong, should be -6 for a +12
You also need to include the elemental component of your damage in the final calculation: against element immune enemies your DPS drops by 112.
two hands turn
25 point buy
Race Human
Gear:
Cracked Pale Green Ioun stone +1 Hit: 4k
belt of str and con +6: 90K
Gloves of dueling (+2 hit and damage) 15K
Boots of Speed: 12K
+5 +stuff Falchion 200k
headband of cha +4: 16k
total=337k
TOTAL Bonus Base Race Level Enchant Inherent PoG
Str 42 +16 17 2 5 6 6 6
Dex 12 +1 14 -2
Con 24 +7 14 6 4
Int 7
Wis 13
Cha 17 +3 13 4
Feats:
Lots of extra feats open for other stuff
Human:
1. Power Attack
1. Skill Focus: Survival
2. Weapon focus: falchion
3. Eld. Htg
4. Weapon Spec: falchion
5.
6.
7.
8. Gtr Wpn Focus
9. Critical Focus
10. Improved Critical: Falchion
11.
12.
13. Imp. Eld. Htg: Strength of Beasts: +6 Str
14. Gtr Wpn Spec
15. Improved Init.
16.
17. Gtr Eld. Htg: Power Of Giants: More stats
18.
19.
20.
falchion Damage: 2d6 , crit: 15 - 20 x 3,
Hit Damage
Base 20 2d6
Stats 16 24 (two-handed first swing) 32(after first)
Feats 2 4
Gear 4 2
Training 5 5
Weapon 5 5
Power attack -6 24
Size -1
TOTAL 40 2d6+6d6+64/40 2d6+6d6+72/35 2d6+6d6+72/30 2d6+6d6+72/25 2d6+6d6+72
Average damage per first hit: 2d6+6d6+64 or ~92.5
Average damage per other hit: 2d6+6d6+72 or ~100.5
On a round with no critical hits:
5 hits = 493 points of Damage
I have a 30% chance to crit for a x3.
SO I crit quite a lot more than you
Note I didn't redo yours for the errors you made, but it's at least 64 lower. And mine could probably be better but here was a quick one. I'm not sure how much a -10 to all your hits will effect your damage. But the 9 from touch of rage shouldn't be there, you get 2 back from power attack error, and -1 from the book not stacking with orc blood. SO 9-2+1 = at least 8 damage from all 8 hits.