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It happens. Your point about leaving slots open is very relevant for clerics though. I can't really imagine playing a cleric without leaving slots open for "emergency" spells. The list is too situational for that. It's why oracles using the same list is a bit problematic.
Still wish domain spells were added to a cleric's spell list by default.
Still wish domain spells were added to a cleric's spell list by default.
Agreed thoroughly. I never realized that this wasn't true until I came across a Prestige class that specifically said it did so.
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Level 3 Spells: This might be the worst spell level of all lists, in the entire game. There are less than 4 spells you'd ever want to prepare on a normal adventuring day and they are all spells from a previous edition which didn't get nerfed.
Blindness, Daylight (or Deeper Darkness for a group with darkvision), Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Stone Shape, Summon Monster III, Wind Wall, and the Communal versions of Delay Poison and Resist Energy all seem like useful spells to have prepared. Which nine of those are you saying are spells I'd never want on a normal adventuring day? And that's not to mention Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease and Water Breathing which you can leave a slot open for.
Invisibility purge is situational... If you have no faerie fire, glitter dust or other arcane spells. Again lower level spells do this fine.
Magic vestment doesn't scale well. +2 armor at 11th isn't financially worth the 9000 gold of a 3rd level slot. This spell is just functionally bad until 16th.
Prayer is only slightly better than a few first level spells since +1 damage is far less than +1 to hit for most characters. Not worth a 3rd level slot
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Even with Glittlerdust it's good, if there are several invis bad guys.
9000 gold?????
You get both a +1 to hit and +1 to damage:"+1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks, while each of your foes takes a –1 penalty on such rolls." Plus it stacks with Bless and it stacks with Bard Inspire Courage.
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In my opinion, Burst of Radiance, while a tad bit overpowered due to the range, is pretty much the best, and by that I mean most iconic, most in flavor for a character that is supposed to call down divine wrath, and just outright coolest spell) that paizo has given the Cleric. I might even say the single most awesome thing that paizo has ever done for the Cleric, and I wish that they would do more like it.
I partially agree with Undone, and partially disagree. Magic Vestment, and this is also very true for Greater Magic Weapon as kind of must haves to even make the Cleric viable. It allows the Cleric to get a +1 Armor or Weapon, and then add properties to it, and then use those spells to increase the AC/Att/Damage magical bonus at near the same rate other classes do that don't also have to spend money on things like scrolls to fix other player's conditions. The key here is, and this is the only thing that makes it worth it, is that both spells are measured in hours. (the problem is that most armor and shield properties, well, just suck. They are just far too expensive for the trivial abilities they grant).
Pretty much anything that is a Remove this, Cure that, is extremely circumstantial and can therefor be a wand or scroll. If not one that other character buy to be used on them.
Invisibility Purge can be nice, but with it's casting time and range, it's not nearly as great is it could be. At much higher levels, it's better, so for a 15th-20th level Cleric, it starts to come into it's own.
Blindness targets basically the best save that an enemy you most want to use it on is likely to have, and it's an all or nothing spell. So as most Clerics tend to have crappy DCs, it's usually not great.
Prayer, while nice, is also one of those spells that A.) doesn't stack with a great many things, and B.) due to it's area, tends to (rightfully so) piss off DM's more than it's actually the fairly minor benefit it grants.
Even going back to the 3.0 boards, certain entire spell levels of the Cleric list have had major issues. 3.5 was able to fix this by all the splat books, but Paizo has really dropped the ball.
Prayer, while nice, is also one of those spells that A.) doesn't stack with a great many things, and B.) due to it's area, tends to (rightfully so) piss off DM's more than it's actually the fairly minor benefit it grants.
1. It's a Luck bonus now.
2. Why?
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Prayer, while nice, is also one of those spells that A.) doesn't stack with a great many things, and B.) due to it's area, tends to (rightfully so) piss off DM's more than it's actually the fairly minor benefit it grants.1. It's a Luck bonus now.
2. Why?
By that level, Luck bonuses are not that uncommon, and it's annoying because it essentially means that the entire board, takes a -1 to basically everything. Sure, it's only a -1, but it's just on of those things where, if there are a lot of enemies, or if there are enemies that come into the picture after the spell, (summoned, or where behind a door) to remember which ones are affected or not.
Small fights, not a problem, but then again, you are probably not going to use the spell for a small fight.
No, it just means that most of their spells aren't multi-purpose. That is a very different thing altogether.
EDIT:
A list of a few spells that are awesome in many various adventuring situations:
(In addition to those listed above)
* Archon's Aura
* Bestow Curse
* Bestow Insight
* Blessing of the Mole
* Blindness/Deafness
* Channel Vigor (I mean, holy crap, guys!)
* Charitable Impulse
* Magic Vestment
* Paragon Surge
* Summon Totem Creature
* Wind Wall
* Wrathful Mantle
Would I prepare those every day? No, of course not. But neither would I always prepare Summon Monster 3, Stone Wall, Magic Circle, and Dispel Magic. Would I prepare those every day while adventuring? If I could, sure. Those are awesome. Of course, what, exactly, I'd prepare, would be directly influenced by what I'm doing.
And, I mean, when I need them, I can go with:
* Agonizing Rebuke
* Animate Dead (presuming non-evil undead)
* Channel the Gift
* Continual Flame
* Create Food and Water
* Discovery Torch
* Enter Image
* Glyph of Warding
* Locate Object
* Nap Sack
* Obscure Object
* Protection from Energy
* Remove ~aaaaaaa~nything
* Riversight
* Skeleton Crew
* Sky Swim
* Speak with Dead
* Symbol of Healing
* Water Breathing
* Water Walk
These are just based on a quick scan and with playing at different times. Level 3 is filled with awesome.
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No, it just means that most of their spells aren't multi-purpose. That is a very different thing altogether.
Except, for the purpose of the Oracle, that IS bad... see the Oracle is the shining example of the issues of the cleric spell list. The cleric spell list was made with the CLERIC in mind and everything the cleric package entails, like having all spells as spells known and combat capabilities.
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I'd agree except that every oracle I've played disagrees with your assessment.
EDIT: And Favored Souls before them, too.
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Third level cleric spells are good - especially dispel magic, resist energy (communal), and delay poison (communal). Resist energy (communal) can save the party, as can delay poison (communal). I agree that seventh level spells are probably the least exciting level, with the possible exception of summon monster VII... but those SM VIIs are better with the new summoning rings from the Advanced Class Guide!
I'd agree except that every oracle I've played disagrees with your assessment.
EDIT: And Favored Souls before them, too.
You really can't compare the cleric list from pathfinder to the 3.5 list... with all the splat hooks and such about, cleric had a RIDICULOUS spell list...
As for your Oracle argument, that is cool. Honestly I don't put much stock in "well I've seen" arguments because no matter how ridiculous the argument, there is always someone who had "seen the exact opposite" ... check I don't know how many times I have seen people say rogues are fine because the rogue in Thierry party is more deadly than the party barbarian
Sure.
But we rarely used any non-PHB spells in Favored Souls.
Still, if you decide to refute anecdotal evidence (which is, of course, your prerogative, and understandable), I would encourage you to re-read the actual things that an oracle (or Favored Soul) can actually do.
For seventh level spells:
* the alignment-words
* Bestow Grace of the Champion
* Control Weather
* Create Demiplane, lesser
* Destruction
* Regenerate
* Restoration, greater
* Resurrection
* Waves of Ecstacy
These are all really awesome spells.
I think what people are confusing is combat utility with really good. There are fewer direct combat utility spells on the cleric spell-list at certain levels. Thus, you're playing a different sort of game. Clerics (and oracles) are never drains on the party unless you make them drains on the party.
Third level cleric spells are good - especially dispel magic, resist energy (communal), and delay poison (communal). Resist energy (communal) can save the party, as can delay poison (communal). I agree that seventh level spells are probably the least exciting level, with the possible exception of summon monster VII... but those SM VIIs are better with the new summoning rings from the Advanced Class Guide!
See, that is good and all.. for the cleric... for an Oracle, delay poison it's kinda a poor choice because it is a very niche spell. If you don't run into poison things for a while then u just wasted a spell known. An Oracle needs to be like a sorcerer, their spells need to good a large majority of the time. This is easy for sorcs, because wizards have more spell choices than you can shake a stick at...
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Except that's not really true. An Oracle that doesn't have a certain spell know is no different than a Cleric that didn't prep that spell that day. An Oracle that does have a spell known that they don't use much in a given adventure is likewise no different than a Cleric that prepped it. Both have the same ability to swap it out for something else via spontaneous casting, but the Oracle has an advantage in that they can swap it out for a lot more options than the Cleric's 1.
The Cleric can swap out spells tomorrow, or even leave a slot open, but the issue with that is it doesn't do a dang thing when you need a certain spell now, which is normally the case when a Cleric would utilize that option, not 15 mins later.
It sounds like people are falling into the typical Schrodinger's Wizard (or in this case Cleric), the idea that because all Wizards/clerics have that option available, all Wizards/Clerics therefor do have that option at all times. There are a few rare times when stopping for 15+ mins in the middle of a dungeon is viable to get the right spell for the job, but in practice it's generally not, and even if it where, it's too late by that time. The poisons already done it's damage. Your party's buffs are now all gone.
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There are a few rare times when stopping for 15+ mins in the middle of a dungeon is viable to get the right spell for the job, but in practice it's generally not, and even if it where, it's too late by that time. The poisons already done it's damage. Your party's buffs are now all gone.
But the pit trap you need to bypass is still there. The shadow's strength damage is still present, and the realization you prepped all the wrong spells is still real.
Rare? Maybe. But better to find it rarely useful than be commonly screwed.
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SUBJECTIVE STATEMENT PROPOSED AS ABSOLUTE PROVE ME WRONG
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I see nothing to refute my point. If you have a worse spell level propose it.
I was actually responding to K177Y C47's comment. I do disagree about 3rd level spells being the worst, but that's subjective to what sort of Cleric you are playing and what sorts of common thing you face. :)
I personally hold that all Divinations (from my personal experience) to simply be an expensive way for the DM to screw you over and waste a spell slot for your trouble. So Greater Scrying is out. Holy Word is mostly a joke outside of the 3.5 methods to boost your Caster Level to make it work. Well, unless you want to destroy a town of commoners. Destruction is kind of an expensive, ranged, but otherwise worse version of Harm (until the highest levels). Res is good. Greater Restoration, a good chunck of it can be done via a Heal spell, and at this level, teleporting back to town shouldn't be too much of an issue. It's costly, and is a 3 Full Round cast. So out of combat. So nice to knock out a bunch of things at once, but not really one that's probably a must have at all times for a Cleric. Probably pretty close to the line of something you'd really want on a Staff or a few Scrolls of, just in case.
8th is pretty terrible too. Firestorm and Earthquake if you can not hit your party and really don't care about destroying absolutely everything in the area. Holy Aura and the equivalents are basically like 4th level spell material at best. Symbols or generally less that effective. A lot of the other spells really just depend on how much the DM allows them to be useful or depend a lot on you party make up. Not much I would actually want to prep most average adventuring days.
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Well, since someone is trying to argue the limited usefulness or even power of the third level spells for the cleric, I decided to see what my necromancer has listed to prepare. He's a battle cleric/necromancer.
So:
Animate Dead, Sands of Time, Prayer, Archon's Aura, Bestow Curse, Nap Stack, Speak With Dead, Vision of Hell, Contagion, Deeper Darkness, Discovery Torch, Blood Biography, Blindness/Deafness, Magic Vestment, Greater Stunning Barrier.
The problem he is having is that there are too many useful spells in this slot and he has to prepare some in fourth level slots as well. Hisl useful in combat and many serves out of combat utility as well. A typical preparation might be:
Animate Dead, Greater Stunning Barrier, Magic Vestment, Sands of Time/Archon's Aura/Vision of Hell.
But he is just as likely to want to prepare Archon's Aura with Prayer, Bestow Curse and/or Contagion. These lists are very good for what my character is trying to do. If I were playing a different type of cleric, the spells listed would be radically different. I have a cleric build that needs to put 2nd level spells in the third level slots because there are too many relevant and always useful spells at that level and not enough slots.
I don't see anything weak or wrong with the spells at any given level. The spell types tend toward subtlety and resolution so I feel this is more of a play style issue than mechanical. A lot of 'niche' and 'circumstantial' spells are really not. The reality is that if your gm is running a full-bodied game, you should expect to deal with poison, disease, curses, sneak attacks, night encounters, thieves, swarms, being mind controlled, being underwater, being in darkness, making lots of acrobatic checks (or falling), paralysis, sleep, traps, puzzles. These issues were common when I played second edition. Maybe the nature of the threats in the game have changed. When I played forever ago, a scroll or two to remove a condition would never have been enough. They would have been nice and helped, but not enough. Players didn't just deal with a disease by making a save or, on the rare occasion they roll a 1 and fail, by fixing it up after the adventure by cheaply dropping some gold and moving on like nothing happened. Instead, a player might be diseased for 2-3 sessions before finally getting rid of it-sometimes longer. Unless those effects are all largely irrelevant, being able to remove them strikes me as fairly powerful and useful. A scroll of each restoration/remove and 2 different ones prepared and maybe even a wand for a particular type sounds like the backbone of a generic clerics repertoire. Then you prepare your spells around that. That's how we played, it was fun, it worked. Maybe things have changed.
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One thing I would agree with- the Wizard 3rd level list is far and away one of the best lists, and compared to that, the cleric list isnt so great. But the cleric list is still fine. I never have any problems picking spells or using them.
Communal 10/level spells are poor choices because 10/min level is significantly better than 10/min/level/target.
For an imminent danger to your entire party, would you rather spend four+ rounds and all your level two spell slots or one action and one level three spell slot?
Communal spells are overpowered in my opinion. In one round, you can give your entire party near immunity to a specific threat, which is crippling to many kinds of opponent. With a lesser rod of reach they don't even need to stand together.
Greater communal spell immunity is a simply outstanding buff....
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Third level cleric spells are good - especially dispel magic, resist energy (communal), and delay poison (communal). Resist energy (communal) can save the party, as can delay poison (communal).See, that is good and all.. for the cleric... for an Oracle, delay poison it's kinda a poor choice because it is a very niche spell. If you don't run into poison things for a while then u just wasted a spell known. An Oracle needs to be like a sorcerer, their spells need to good a large majority of the time. This is easy for sorcs, because wizards have more spell choices than you can shake a stick at...
An oracle gets up to four level 3 spells known, plus the mystery bonus spell and Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds.
My choices: Dispel Magic, Magic Circle vs. [pick an align], Speak With Dead, Stone Shape ... plus Cure (or Inflict) Serious Wounds and mystery spell.
Plus try to keep around some scrolls of ...
Create Food and Water, Delay Poison (communal), Invisibility Purge, Remove Blind/Deaf, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Water Breathing, and maybe a few others.
A good wand for level 3 is Prayer, if you can get one.
So... how exactly is this craptastic compared to a sorcerer? Counterspelling, AoE buff, information gathering from defeated foes, and utility.
This after the level 0-2 spells (and more). Care to explain to me how this sucks?
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Since I did 3rd level, I may as well give the same (Oracle) treatment to 7th level.
My choices: Destruction, Repulsion, Dictum/Blasphemy/etc. ... plus Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Sounds, and mystery spell.
Scrolls: Control Weather, Regenerate, Resurrection, Greater Scrying
So... one of the most fearsome save-or-die spells in the game, battlefield control, and mass status delivery... I'm not even using SM VII (with Vrock, Bone Devil or Greater Elemental), yet what is not to love!
Again... how is this bad?
Cleric Spell list could be more interesting. It's pretty narrow.
I meant Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds, not Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Sounds
... how embarrassing.
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I meant Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds, not Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Sounds
... how embarrassing.
Well, not as bad as accidentally casting limited fish. In fact inflict serious sounds seems like an excellent name for a bard spell.
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Well, not as bad as accidentally casting limited fish. In fact inflict serious sounds seems like an excellent name for a bard spell.I meant Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds, not Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Sounds
... how embarrassing.
Continual Wight.
FurBall.
lightening bolt.
Magic measles. Magic weasels.
Detect Weevil.
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Well, not as bad as accidentally casting limited fish. In fact inflict serious sounds seems like an excellent name for a bard spell.I meant Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds, not Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Sounds
... how embarrassing.
Continual Wight.
FurBall.
lightening bolt.
Magic measles. Magic weasels.
Detect Weevil.
Ack Tentacles!
Mage's DisfunctionAnimate Bead
Power Word Bill
Meteor Swamp
Energy Rain
Bunburst
Maize
Prismatic Ball
Mind Bank
Reverse Gravy
Control Heather
Prismatic Pray
Gasping Hand
Shadow Wok
True Peeing
Legend Bore
Acid Frog
Antmagic Field
Transmute Rock to Fud
Overland Blight
Best Shape III
Cone of Bold
Mind Bog
Contact Other Plain
Wall of Bone
Bear
Wall of Nice
Wall of Wire
Remove Purse
Wire Tap
Lame Arrow
Gentle Pose
Tiny Mut
Rope Tick
Continual Lame
Ghost Pound
Flair
Red Magic
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this thread took a step away from the darkness into something wonderful.
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The clerics have access to all of the clerical spell. except counter to you alignment. which is more choice than most wizards.
If you want to be a blaster start as a gnome with the pyromaniac alternative race trait, Then be a theologian then chose the fire domain.
You will have the ability to cast a 4d4+4 burning hands at 1st level.
Instead of the normal d4
The pyromaniac treats your fire spells as on higher a theologian adds two more levels. you could be a negative channeling cleric but I would recommend against it.
Cleric have an ace up there sleeve better than a conjurer wizard for summoning. If you take sacred summon feat you may summon monsters of your alignment as a standard action verses the wizard who take to rounds for his summoned monsters to come up. Most of the bad guys are evil and you can have your summoned monsters smite evil once a day do more damage and ignore DR. As a wizard I can do a standard action cast but I have to make a fort save every time I do it or be fatigued.
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Well, not as bad as accidentally casting limited fish. In fact inflict serious sounds seems like an excellent name for a bard spell.I meant Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds, not Mass Cure/Inflict Serious Sounds
... how embarrassing.
Continual Wight.
FurBall.
lightening bolt.
Magic measles. Magic weasels.
Detect Weevil.
Ack Tentacles!
Mage's Disfunction
Animate Bead
Power Word Bill
Meteor Swamp
Energy Rain
Bunburst
Maize
Prismatic Ball
Mind Bank
Reverse Gravy
Control Heather
Prismatic Pray
Gasping Hand
Shadow Wok
True Peeing
Legend Bore
Acid Frog
Antmagic Field
Transmute Rock to Fud
Overland Blight
Best Shape III
Cone of Bold
Mind Bog
Contact Other Plain
Wall of Bone
Bear
Wall of Nice
Wall of Wire
Remove Purse
Wire Tap
Lame Arrow
Gentle Pose
Tiny Mut
Rope Tick
Continual Lame
Ghost Pound
Flair
Red Magic
If we really want to go here, I'd throw in my 2cp.
WarmMage's Lubrication
Meal
Gentle Dose
Telestarboard
Dimension Floor
Symbol of Rain
Symbol of Breath
Symbol of Drain
Cure Light Mounds
Rest or Ration
Power Word Skill
Sh!++er
Rending
Massage
Whip of Pants
Sympathetic Ventilations
Wallow
UnWallow
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I have been avoiding this thread for a couple days because of lots of doomsaying, and what do I find when I come back? Some guy listing great spell choices for an oracle and possibly the best thread derailment I've seen in recent days.
Sometimes, I really love you guys.
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I found the antiwife she'll life conduit and animate nope the most amusing.
@Seranov, I have a super duper awesome spell list that everybody loves. It gets me and Mischief through the day. We can pretty much handle anything an adventurer needs for a dungeon crawl or a fight. Also, pages of spell knowledge are an excellent way for us oracles to cover a few niche needs without wasting our precious slots known.
Level 7? What about destruction (nicer to cast it at a distance than harm plus it kills, a lot of times even if you pass the save).
Or holy word. Blind is a powerful debuff. Banishment too. You cannot use vs the big bad boss, but if it has a group of minions... if he does not have it, you don't need to care anyway.
There is also Summon Monster 7 and ethereal jaunt.
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@Seranov
0.) Detect & Read Magic, Spark, Create Water, Guidance, Enhanced Diplomacy, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Stabilize.
1.) Clw, Burning Hands, Burning Disarm, Sun Metal, Murderous Command, Moment of Greatness, Shield of Faith, (Ant Haul via Page of Spell Knowledge).
2.) Cmw, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere, Defending Bone, Silence, Shield Other, Pilfering Hand (Wants to add Air Step).
3.) Csw, Fireball, Dispel Magic, Speak With Dead, Archon's Aura (might swap out for Greater Stunning Barrier, Glyph of Warding or Bestow Curse).
4.) Ccw, Wall of Fire, Blessing of Fervor, Aura of Doom.
I originally had spiritual weapon, spiritual ally and chain of perdition on the list but in pfs all or most of those use wisdom for the attack bonus. Either way, this list is for a 5 strength, 3 foot tall gnome pyromaniac treasure hunter. Me! I've only got some of the third level spells but they seem to get the job done. I suppose I am missing Air Walk and I do get another 4th level spell at 11. I had a list of fifth level spells but decided to just wait and see how things were going. Planeshift, Scrying, Spell Immunity (Communal), Life bubble, Wall of Blindness/Deafness/Stone were some of the ones that crossed my mind but I only get to pick two.
The Cleric spell list probably shouldn't be as "good" as the Wizard/Sorcerer list. The casters that use it can have every single one ever printed, for free, just by praying.
You can transform the purpose of your character without rebuilding. Today I'm a Righteous Might warrior and tomorrow a classic caster.
The Cleric spell list probably shouldn't be as "good" as the Wizard/Sorcerer list. The casters that use it can have every single one ever printed, for free, just by praying.
That honestly is it's biggest problem. I personally would rather see domains treated like the arcane schools, and clerics only have access to a few basic domains + a handful relevant to their god. It'll still have plenty of power, but give more room for domains to actually have a visible effect.