During the Swashbuckler playtest we were told that the reason they were making Dex to Damage a feat and not a Swashbuckler class feature was to open it up to more classes.
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It's just so bizarre. I am already feeling crippled enough as a knife master rogue. Yay 1d4+2 unless I'm flanking! Whoo. Even with dex to damage I'm still no where near the damage output of either the paladin or the samurai. Seriously, the boss of the book we just finished was one rounded before I could get into a position to flank.
Sure there is still the option of agile. But that requires we either find a shop that so happens to sell a pair +1 agile kukri ir we actually have time for crafting.
I was really looking forward to this feat. Maybe my DW will house rule and let me take it next level
The Developers who work on the rules side have since the beginning been afraid of DEX to damage. The reason is not how great it makes TWF though that is an issue. The real concern is that it makes DEX which is already a prized stat for many builds, even better. Hence it is not just a swashbuckler class feature but they are making it cost a feat.Which has been proven profusely in this thread and the many others that were spawned with the same concern of "Where's the Dex at?" Allowing Dexterity builds currently is not only not gamebreaking, but is also an inoptimal choice, given the options Strength builds have that outweigh any benefits a Dexterity build could possibly gain.
Quite frankly, it's much more defensible to say that the Devs never cared to have Dexterity to Attack/Damage as an option, and just chopped out a lot of 3.5 copypaste material to follow that vision.
You want to go two-handed Dexterity? No 1.5x Dexterity to damage, and you can't utilize Piranha Strike with it unless it's a Light Weapon, which is double-negative for 1.5x Dexterity; it also doesn't scale up with handedness like Power Attack does. So you're dealing significantly less damage than a two-handed Strength with having to spend even more investment.
You want to go two-weapon Dexterity? You have to be extremely niche in item selection, invest in obscure effects, and forgo damage dice because you have to use Light crap in order to be any good; this also means you should be a Crit Fisher, so unless it's 18-20/X2 in multiplier, you can just go kill yourself for being useful in melee combat. Did I mention you have to give up at least 4 feats (40% of the grand total you normally obtain) in order to be any good at it, like the Vital Strike chain?
All that for what, slightly better acrobatics, Touch AC (regular AC will be unaffected, because heavier armor counterbalances it), and Reflex Saves? At the cost of effectively reduced damage, and the carrying capacity of a fly? Not worth for...
You are right its not that Dex to damage is game breaking or even more powerful than STR its that Dex would be tied to yet another ability. It already has AC, Reflex Saves, Ranged Attacks, making it also a primary melee stat would place its value out of balance with other stats. This would allow other stats to be sacrificed for a super high dex. Currently all melee fighters have to deal with a three way balance. A tank build still places something in Dex for the AC, but it also needs CON and likely has STR as its highest stat. Dex to Damage (especially early possibility) allows a melee to pump Dex and only to worry about Con. Sure might be a out DPSed by a STR build but also has a bonus to save, a high AC to keep them happy.
I'm not sold on the idea that dex builds boast superior AC. After all, a strength build is generally going to be running around in full plate to make up for the lack of dex-to-AC, which means that (sans armor training or mithril) more than a +1 dex bonus is going to waste anyway.
Dex builds, if they pull ahead in AC at all, do it at very high levels where they can stack enhancement, inherent, and other bonuses to get 30+ dex. By the time that's an option for dex builds, strength ones will have a bunch of their own high-level goodies to play with.
If you dump STR and pump DEX and other stats instead. You can get a 4 or 5 AC armor that allows 4 Dex bonus without limiting movement. Again its not that a single use of DEX breaks the game its how much can be accomplished with a high DEX versus other stats.
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All that has been possible for a long time, with sources like Agile enhancements and Dervish Dance. Yet Strength is far from dead. Even on a class like a Magus, whose class features already push you toward using a Scimitar in one hand and nothing in the other, Dervish Dance is not the clear-cut best option. Yes there are benefits to being less MAD, but you sacrifice feats and damage for it. If you could use Slashing Grace with Light Weapons, you could TWF for high damage but what a feat sink it would be.
Yes but they all require choices to be made before getting them.
Also the rules development team is the ones from what I understand have the issue. Its the flavor side of the company that brought us Dervish Dance which I am not sure is PFS legal.
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Yes but they all require choices to be made before getting them.
Also the rules development team is the ones from what I understand have the issue. Its the flavor side of the company that brought us Dervish Dance which I am not sure is PFS legal.
from additional reasorces:
Feats: all feats on pages 284–289 except Eye of the Arclord, Fortune Teller, Hamatulatsu, Harrowed, and Shade of the Uskwood. For the Cypher Magic feat, replace the Scribe Scroll prerequisite with Spell Focus;
Dervish Dance is PFS legal
If you dump STR and pump DEX and other stats instead. You can get a 4 or 5 AC armor that allows 4 Dex bonus without limiting movement. Again its not that a single use of DEX breaks the game its how much can be accomplished with a high DEX versus other stats.
Slight issue here.
The highest light armor you have is a +4 armor, with a +4 dex ac allotment.
Now you could get Scalemail or a Breastplate, and get it mithral. Most high dex characters though don't want to spend extra feats on armor prof, which you'd need to get higher armor AC. Not to mention if you keep pumping dex, you'll quickly work your way out of the armor. There is a cap on how much dex is effective in armor.
That would cost you an extra +4k to get. Which incidentally enough for a high strength person just so happens to be enough to add +2 to his AC.
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The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.I agree, though apparently they forgot about Saw Tooth Sabers...this REALLY makes me want to play a red mantis assassin!This is the part that bothers me most about it: It's already open that you can do 2WF with DEX to damage if you're jump through the right hoops and use the right toys, you just can't do it with many of the flavors people want to use.
The power gamers won't care, they'll just use it if it's worthwhile. Those who care about the flavor will be screwed, but they weren't the ones going to abuse it anyway.
The thing is, I already had a TWF with sawtooth sabers. Now I get to respec him and jump through far fewer hoops.
Sawtooth Sabre will allow DEX to damage, but does not allow weapon finesse. So basically you are in the same boat as with any other slashing weapon here except the penalty for TWF is less - you still want STR for the to-hit chance.
I think the Dervish Dance thing was that the other hand has to be empty - no shield, no weapon. So they were willing to give DEX to damage for that feat because you are limiting your character in other ways. Having an empty off-hand is bad for almost every class - except magus, of course.
Peet
The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.
I doubt this is the reason. Dex to Damage while TWF is already doable in the Pathfinder Core Rules. After all, the sawtooth saber made it into Ultimate Equipment. Sure, its a bit more feat intensive, but in the long run you're dual-wielding longswords with Dex to damage.
Don't forget that STR is tied to carrying capacity. A character who dumps str (-7) cannot carry more than 23 pounds of equipment. So after 12.5 for a mithral chain shirt, and 5 for a handy haver sack, and 2-3 for a weapon (possibly more), You've got a character with the ability to carry about only three more pounds of equipment before he is overweight.
Being Medium load shuts down most abilities high dex classes have, and limits their AC bonus to +3 from dex.
EDIT : Oh I also forgot your set of cloths which could put 2-7 pounds of more material on you.
At 8 Strength or less I would start to get nervous about Strength damage, especially since a lot of these Dex classes have a poor Fortitude save. Riding the edge of your encumbrance limit is begging for a Ray of Enfeeblement, which might still be enough to tip you over to Medium Encumbrance even on a successful save.
The more I looked into the encumbrance limitation the less I see it being relevant past the first two or three levels. There are a myriad of spells and cheap magic items that let you increase your carry capacity or reduce, sidestep or otherwise ignore encumbrance altogether.
If people are worried that Strength will be overshadowed then I'd rather see Paizo add more interesting options to characters who choose to focus on strength rather than dexterity.
An example is the unique ability of the Belt of Mighty Hurling - a feat that allows you to use strength in place of dexterity to hit with thrown weapons.
The more I looked into the encumbrance limitation the less I see it being relevant past the first two or three levels. There are a myriad of spells and cheap magic items that let you increase your carry capacity or reduce, sidestep or otherwise ignore encumbrance altogether.
If people are worried that Strength will be overshadowed then I'd rather see Paizo add more interesting options to characters who choose to focus on strength rather than dexterity.
An example is the unique ability of the Belt of Mighty Hurling - a feat that allows you to use strength in place of dexterity to hit with thrown weapons.
And the new book even added an enchantment for your armor that's just +gp. You don't even have to waste a slot to boost it. :)
Burdenless armor is indeed one of the items I had in mind. :)
I wonder how high we can get a theoretical carry cap now - last time I checked the threads were working with dozens of tons, burdenless barding might push us up in the hundreds.
The more I looked into the encumbrance limitation the less I see it being relevant past the first two or three levels. There are a myriad of spells and cheap magic items that let you increase your carry capacity or reduce, sidestep or otherwise ignore encumbrance altogether.
If people are worried that Strength will be overshadowed then I'd rather see Paizo add more interesting options to characters who choose to focus on strength rather than dexterity.
An example is the unique ability of the Belt of Mighty Hurling - a feat that allows you to use strength in place of dexterity to hit with thrown weapons.
If you're focusing on spells to fix your encumbrance, you're using up resources from spell casters.
Magic items take up slots that could be used for other things that could have helped you out a lot.
The Armor Enchantment - This is also a problem here for a high dex character. You eventually will cap out at 10 ac (baring the magical enhancements) While a Strong character could easily get to 12 AC.
It also is only a +50% on your carrying capacity, The earlier character with 7 str could only get 11.5 more pounds of stuff. Much of which would be taken up my clothing still.
Each magic item he equips has weight too. Most are about a pound or so.
Bags of holding, the lightest of the four is 15 pounds. Haversack is 5 pounds, hence why I used a haversack over a BoH.
High str increases carrying capacity dramatically.
Take the guy with 7 str and a guy with 18str
23 lbs vs 100 lbs.
11 stat point difference here, but a 77 lbs difference. With both getting muleback cords, you're looking at 50lbs vs 233 lbs. The 18 str guy more than doubled his capacity for just six more points of strength. Basically he doesn't have to pour all of his money into not being crushed by his own gear. Not to mention he doesn't have to spend 3+ feats just to be able to use a rapier with grace and precision.
Because of his high str, he's actually quite capable of switching out weapons too, easily being able to carry his golfbag of swords if he needed. Non-finessable weapons have some of the highest damage dice in the game. Being able to add an additional .5 of your str mod isn't something to sneeze at either. Heck being able to weild some of those weapons is a feat within itself. Like the earthbreaker is a 14 pound weapon.
If you're focusing on spells to fix your encumbrance, you're using up resources from spell casters.
Easily rectified via a 1st level pearl of power, priced at 1k gold.
Magic items take up slots that could be used for other things that could have helped you out a lot.
Numerous items are slotless, or can be put in slots you don't frequently use. You can also simply add an enchantment to another item - a Muleback Cord enhancement costs 1500 gp when added to a cloak of resistance, for example.
The Armor Enchantment - This is also a problem here for a high dex character. You eventually will cap out at 10 ac (baring the magical enhancements) While a Strong character could easily get to 12 AC.
I'm not entirely sure if I get your meaning, but Effortless Armor is a flat cost - it doesn't take up a +1 bonus. If you mean that heavy armor gives you better AC than light armor then I don't disagree, but I'm not sure how it's relevant when debating encumbrance as a drawback for high dex low str characters.
It also is only a +50% on your carrying capacity, The earlier character with 7 str could only get 11.5 more pounds of stuff. Much of which would be taken up my clothing still.
Each magic item he equips has weight too. Most are about a pound or so.
Bags of holding, the lightest of the four is 15 pounds. Haversack is 5 pounds, hence why I used a haversack over a BoH.
Right, which is why you'd start off with buying Muleback Cords and a handy haversack or bag of holding down the line. Effortless armor is more of a backup solution for a character who's carrying unusually much weight, like low str characters who want to wear heavy armor.
High str increases carrying capacity dramatically.
Take the guy with 7 str and a guy with 18str
23 lbs vs 100 lbs.
11 stat point difference here, but a 77 lbs difference. With both getting muleback cords, you're looking at 50lbs vs 233 lbs.
Actually a 7 str character wearing muleback cords would have a light load of 66 lbs, and a 18 str character wearing muleback cords would have a light load of 306 lbs. At that point I'd politely point out that the 18 str guy's original light load was probably more than enough, since he's most likely wearing heavy armor and so have a speed decrease and an armor check penalty anyway, so he doesn't care if he's carrying a light or medium load. He'd be better off putting that 1k in something else, like saving towards some boots of striding.
The 18 str guy more than doubled his capacity for just six more points of strength. Basically he doesn't have to pour all of his money into not being crushed by his own gear.
Actually muleback cords add +8 strength, not +6. I'd also politely point out that the ~1000 GP you spend on muleback cords are most likely not "all of your money" at level 4+ unless you're a spectacularly unsuccessful adventurer.
Not to mention he doesn't have to spend 3+ feats just to be able to use a rapier with grace and precision.
Again, not sure how this is relevant to encumbrance.
Because of his high str, he's actually quite capable of switching out weapons too, easily being able to carry his golfbag of swords if he needed. Non-finessable weapons have some of the highest damage dice in the game. Being able to add an additional .5 of your str mod isn't something to sneeze at either. Heck being able to weild some of those weapons is a feat within itself. Like the earthbreaker is a 14 pound weapon.
Whereas if you have a high dexterity and low strength, odds are you're not going to be using a 14 lb hammer as your primary or backup weapon. 66 lb is more than enough to carry a full set of combat equipment (armor, various items such as cloaks/belts/headbands/robes, weapon, backup weapon, ranged weapon, wands, potions) and if you for some reason need to go outside your light load there's always the handy haversack, bag of holding, heavyload belt, effortless armor, portable hole ant haul spell et cetera to cover your needs.
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Or a two level dip into Ranger/Slayer for the Two-Handed combat style.I would never dump STR on a Dex based build, but a 10 is perfectly acceptable.Dual sawtooth sabers still needs a 13 strength if you plan on taking Power Attack.
How many levels are we dipping here:
1 Swashbuckler: dex-to-hit
2 Ranger: circumvent strength
1 fighter/kensai: get the feats online faster
Can we dip 1 sacred fist/1 monk (to double dip wisdom to AC) while we are at it?
Another advantages for the dex builds: No armor check penalty, more skills affected and higher initiative.
In my opinion, Slashing grace isn't very well designed, and reinforce what Paizo feared about the swashbuckler: A level dip taxe. Because we already understood that, swashbuckler's finesse is a disguised prerequisite. Except for the sawtooth sabers or whips, who will take this feat without at least a level in swashbuckler ?
I can understand why they fear Dex-only builds, but giving us this shy solution is saddening.
Ok i get that this feat is Nerfed and I get the pattern from the developers that caused it. what I don't get is why people spend so much time complaining and don't just house rule the stupid feat and move on. Read Rule Zero fix the feat and have fun.
Read Rule Zero fix the feat and have fun.
A lot of people play in games where that isn't an option.
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So, have the developers weighed in on the whole thing by now or are they still pouting because we were a bit uncouth in our language when we first discovered this whole thing?
That makes me sad. I have been playing since 2nd Ed D&D Rule zero has been in every RPG i have played. hell its half the fun of Table top vs video games and MMORPG I can fix what I don't like. But I guess if you are stuck with ROW you have to do what you have to do. My group has had a dex to damage feat for 10 years because it just makes sense. If Sneak attack works then so should dex to damage. Are our parties over powered yeah often but then that just opens up the available monsters for the GM to use at any given level. Like I always say its just a game we are not playing for money.
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So, have the developers weighed in on the whole thing by now or are they still pouting because we were a bit uncouth in our language when we first discovered this whole thing?
They are "fixing" it by releasing an even more restrictive feat on a different book...
Apparently, they're physically incapable of releasing a FAQ/errata to make something more useful... Unless it's for casters, of course.
That makes me sad. I have been playing since 2nd Ed D&D Rule zero has been in every RPG i have played. hell its half the fun of Table top vs video games and MMORPG I can fix what I don't like. But I guess if you are stuck with ROW you have to do what you have to do. My group has had a dex to damage feat for 10 years because it just makes sense. If Sneak attack works then so should dex to damage. Are our parties over powered yeah often but then that just opens up the available monsters for the GM to use at any given level. Like I always say its just a game we are not playing for money.
You hit on it by saying 'Table top'. In a home game, sure why not. But many play in non-home games. I play online and it's not feasible most times to have a bunch of house-rules. Others play in PFS and aren't allowed to house-rule. And still others don't WANT to have to patch up the game they are playing. It'd be nice if a brand new book didn't need a patch before it hits the shelves...
I would never dump STR on a Dex based build, but a 10 is perfectly acceptable.
Hi, Nicos here.
For aestethical reasons I feel the same. 10 is a good number for str (like this build), perhaps an 8, never a 7.
I just do not see a swashbuclking character as weakling, certainly that is not what I get from the Zorro or that guy form the princess bride.
Dread Pirate Westly?
Has anyone mentioned taking this feat with Unarmed Strike and Boar Style. That should give you dex to hit and dex to damage
Has anyone mentioned taking this feat with Unarmed Strike and Boar Style. That should give you dex to hit and dex to damage
Unarmed strikes are considered light melee weapon, so it doesn't work.
I don't think the 'trick' even works.
It is my belief that the weapon would still have to qualify normally. I made a new thread posing this question as to not clutter this one.
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It is my belief that the weapon would still have to qualify normally. I made a new thread posing this question as to not clutter this one.If the weapon qualified normally, the feat would be utterly pointless
No, the feat would allow you to apply the benefits to all weapons that qualify. The feat is still useful for versatility, but not to bypass requisites.
It is my belief that the weapon would still have to qualify normally. I made a new thread posing this question as to not clutter this one.If the weapon qualified normally, the feat would be utterly pointlessNo, the feat would allow you to apply the benefits to all weapons that qualify. The feat is still useful for versatility, but not to bypass requisites.
Pretty much this.