Slashing Grace: DEX to Damage, but not Attack Roll?


Rules Questions

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I know everyone is complaining on the phrasing of this feat, but am I interpreting correctly that Slashing Grace only applies to one handed slashing weapons (none of which appear on Weapon Finesse)? So there is now a new option for DEX damage, but it only applies to weapons that don't benefit from Weapon Finesse? Then why is Weapon Finesse a Pre-Req unless the chosen weapon can also benefit from Weapon Finesse?


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The swashbuckler class has an ability that works with slashing grace to give both hit and damage from dex. It also counts as weapon finesse so you don't need to burn a feat on that. Without that one level of swashbuckler there are still two or three exotic weapons that can be finessed.


Also just cause it's a prereq doesn't mean they work together. An example is a lot of the combat style feats and a lot of the combat maneuver feats. Combat maneuvers have combat expertise, but that penalty to hit and extra AC doesn't relate to tripping someone.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Also just cause it's a prereq doesn't mean they work together. An example is a lot of the combat style feats and a lot of the combat maneuver feats. Combat maneuvers have combat expertise, but that penalty to hit and extra AC doesn't relate to tripping someone.

Yes, and that is atrocious, one of the most annoying thing of pathfinder.


Oh I see. So because it counts as a one handed piercing damage weapon, it pairs up with swashbuckler Finesse. Thanks for explaining that!


Quick question in the same vein... So this feat means I can get dex to damage only with the slashing weapon of my choosing, but not to weapons that already fall under the category of a light or one-handed piercing weapon, right?

Which means I can't get dex to damage on the iconic swashbuckler weapon: the rapier, but I can get it on a battle axe or hand axe? That doesn't seem right.


RavenVoron wrote:

Quick question in the same vein... So this feat means I can get dex to damage only with the slashing weapon of my choosing, but not to weapons that already fall under the category of a light or one-handed piercing weapon, right?

Which means I can't get dex to damage on the iconic swashbuckler weapon: the rapier, but I can get it on a battle axe or hand axe? That doesn't seem right.

But it is. Welcome to the crazy.

They are adding another feat that will allow it with rapiers though. Can't remember what it'll be in.


There is another new feat, not fully published but revealed by the devs called fencing grace that gives dex to damage with rapiers, see one of the 10 billion threads on it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Rapiers can just have the Agile enchantment.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Rapiers can just have the Agile enchantment.

But they shouldn't have to.


http://paizo.com/products/btpy978v/discuss&page=21?Pathfinder-Roleplayi ng-Game-Advanced-Class-Guide#1045


Sorry, didn't see that. Thanks for the link! That's cool that they're doing that, though! +1 to paizo.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Neurophage wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Rapiers can just have the Agile enchantment.
But they shouldn't have to.

Saves a feat.

Scarab Sages

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The interesting thing with slashing grace is, a human kensai can get dex to damage and attack with the aldori dueling sword at first level.

That same kensai can get the Precise Strike deed at 3rd level.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Also, the Falcata.

That 19-20/x3 is nice.


Or the real crazy one right now, a Swashbuckler can get DEX damage on a Bastard Sword. But a ninja can only get DEX damage on a dagger by using the Agile Enchantment...

Scarab Sages

kvnireland wrote:
Or the real crazy one right now, a Swashbuckler can get DEX damage on a Bastard Sword.

And since the bastard sword now counts as a piercing weapon, the Swashbuckler also gets dex to hit with the bastard sword.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Also, dipping Phalanx Fighter, to get Dex to damage with a Longspear.

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Also, dipping Phalanx Fighter, to get Dex to damage with a Longspear.

Longspears are not slashing weapons.

Contributor

It is important to note that Slashing Grace, in the playtest, was intended to be a Swashbuckler feat. In the playtest, all it did was allow you to use one-handed slashing weapons as one-handed piercing weapons for swashbuckler and duelist abilities.

Dex to damage was reportedly added to the feat because it felt too weak to the developers, but its focus was never really changed away from being intended for swashbucklers.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

It is important to note that Slashing Grace, in the playtest, was intended to be a Swashbuckler feat. In the playtest, all it did was allow you to use one-handed slashing weapons as one-handed piercing weapons for swashbuckler and duelist abilities.

Dex to damage was reportedly added to the feat because it felt too weak to the developers, but its focus was never really changed away from being intended for swashbucklers.

Well, looks like the only Dex-Based build Paizo approves of is the Swashbuckler as far as the hardcovers are concerned. It's quite a bunch of silly crap, given how much they flopped the ball on the feat.

Considering how broken Strength builds and full casters are these days, it's a bunch of phooey that they're pulling crap like that.

But I am being a goober and expecting Paizo to care about balance, when, given the direction and content of product that they've published so far, they never intended to make the game "balanced."

That's something they expect the customer base to handle for themselves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
trollbill wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Also, dipping Phalanx Fighter, to get Dex to damage with a Longspear.
Longspears are not slashing weapons.

With Weapon Versatility, they are.

Also, this works with the Fauchard.


By this logic a Thunder and Fang user can get Dex to damage with their Earthbreaker

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Diminuendo wrote:
By this logic a Thunder and Fang user can get Dex to damage with their Earthbreaker

Yes they can.


I do t have the bbook, so thisnis based off of d20... but how do swashbucklers get dex to damage in the first place?
Ive looked at the class, they get free weaponfinesse but thats it..
Is this or some other feat what doess it? Or am I missing something else?

Feels weird that they start with finesse and the have to get the feat for it. Since said feat was originally for them?
Not that you cant start lv1 with dex based then I guess


They gotta get Slashing grace for dex to damage. Course the also have to get focus. cause, Martials always need lots and lots of training that is only able to be represented by the feats they picked up.


Darche Schneider wrote:
They gotta get Slashing grace for dex to damage. Course the also have to get focus. cause, Martials always need lots and lots of training that is only able to be represented by the feats they picked up.

...You're being sarcastic, right?


Okay, so you can only get Dex to damage with "heavy" slashing weapons and not light piercing weapons. And they fix that by making an extra feat specifically for the rapier, leaving other things like the trusty short sword in the dust?


Navarion wrote:
Okay, so you can only get Dex to damage with "heavy" slashing weapons and not light piercing weapons. And they fix that by making an extra feat specifically for the rapier, leaving other things like the trusty short sword in the dust?

Yup. Because apparently allowing Dex-based martials is too overpowering compared to the other options that everyone has available to them.

Scarab Sages

The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.


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Imbicatus wrote:
The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.

You've got to be kidding me. TWF is already feat intensive as it is if you want to be effective with it; tacking on Dexterity only makes it even more so, given Weapon Finesse feat tax, as well as the generic Dervish Dance, or even the Agile property, which isn't in any official hardcover book. It also has a lower scale in comparison to Two-hand + Strength, at the enhanced benefit of a couple stronger combat-related skills, higher Touch AC (general AC will remain mostly unchanged, given MDB limits, depending on how you TWF), and better Reflex Saves.

That's it. That's the big "pay-off" for going Dexterity in offense versus Strength, is a higher subset of AC, a higher saving throw that's occasionally targeted by spells and supernatural effects, and a couple of skills that are decently better in comparison to both subjects that go fully invested into a skill. Did I mention that you also can't carry anything worth a damn because you have at-best a 13 Strength, which carries maybe all of your combat-related equipment?

I'm glad that's super-duper-powerful compared to characters who can get a single statistic as a modifier to their saves for a single feat (even with hefty requirements), something which before required a 2 level dip into a specific class to function, on top of that being stackable with a spell that provides the same effect, since it specifies it works as a separate bonus type, not to mention some of the reach antics Bloodragers can pull, or even the OPness that is the Arcanist.

This whole "We're afraid of granting X the power of Y" theory goes in the toilet when you compare the power levels of what they have allowed in the past, those levels, which were around since the Core was released. It's not a matter of power or balance, as evidenced by the constant threads made on their boards pointing out and infallibly calculating the disparity between Full Progression Spellcasters and Full BAB Martials, or even Martials and Spellcasters amongst themselves, and their constant hardcover splatbooks which only enforce and increase the stated disparity.

It's a matter of perspective and vision when you think about Paizo's design choices; they view Wizards or other full spellcasters as characters whose potentials are almost limitless in what they can do, whereas they view Fighters and Rogues as the every-day, average Joe who works with what their mundane skills can pull them through.

When you look at the game in that light, everything fits into place, and it matches the design values and choices made by Paizo. Notice where Balance is in the grand scheme of things: non-existent. Which, for them, it is how it should be; not a part of their regime.


Imbicatus wrote:
The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.

Is that is the fear why the solution have noting to do with it?

Scarab Sages

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I'm not saying the fear is reasonable, but when you look at the current sources of dex to damage, it's armed to see any other desire than to limit two weapon fighting with dex to damage. Dervish dance is limited to one weapon only. Slashing grace and it's yet to be published rapier counterpart are limited to one handed weapons, inflicting larger penalties on twf. Agile weapons are a cash sink that need two +2 weapons to further delay access to it.

Why put so many limitations if not to minimize twf with dex to damage?


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If you (generic you) do not want des to damage + TWF then you disallow dex to damage + TWF as with dervish dance. Not sure how much more complicated it can be.


Imbicatus wrote:

I'm not saying the fear is reasonable, but when you look at the current sources of dex to damage, it's armed to see any other desire than to limit two weapon fighting with dex to damage. Dervish dance is limited to one weapon only. Slashing grace and it's yet to be published rapier counterpart are limited to one handed weapons, inflicting larger penalties on twf. Agile weapons are a cash sink that need two +2 weapons to further delay access to it.

Why put so many limitations if not to minimize twf with dex to damage?

Quite frankly, the numbers and mechanics they've implemented thus far that Dexterity affects doesn't really add up in comparison to Strength.

By 11th level, I can have up to a +10 Dexterity modifier while raging in combat, and be able to TWF without penalties, have +2 Agile properties on my weapons, cast Haste on myself, and have a base AC over 30 while wearing light-ish armor, all according to WBL that they've printed.

And the numbers come out to still being substantially under an average two-handed Martial that actually has more durability than I do, and a comparable AC to boot. And he didn't have to give up a damn thing for it.

Needless to say, it only proves my point: Balance is not something Paizo cares about. They have a vision for the game which supersedes such pedantic things, and that vision doesn't include implementing Dexterity for Damage (unless you're a Swashbuckler, and even then that's iffy).


Nicos wrote:
If you (generic you) do not want des to damage + TWF then you disallow dex to damage + TWF as with dervish dance. Not sure how much more complicated it can be.

Except it's not the "generic you" that doesn't want this, it appears to be Paizo, since they're the ones publishing rules that keep stepping around it.

Of course, if you do want dex to damage + TWF, then allow it. House rule your own Improved Finesse feat that gives dex damage to all finesse weapons. Done.


kvnireland wrote:
[...] Slashing Grace only applies to one handed slashing weapons (none of which appear on Weapon Finesse)?

There is one weapon it applies to for everyone - the whip. Kensai Magus' are probably having a field day. There is also the Aldori Dueling Sword.

It is however mostly a swashbuckler feat, but there is plenty you can do with the feat if you dip swashbuckler, including dex to damage TWF with light weapons (Well, sort of - see the Sawtooth Sabre).

I'm actually rather pleased that some exotic weapons may actually be worth a feat now.


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Unless I am totally dense and missing something completely obvious. Isn't my two weapon fighting dex based rogue able to take this feat with his kukri?

Slashing weapon. Check.
Finesse. Check.

It's at least an alternative to me trying to get agile on both...


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The feat does not include Light weapons.


Kukri don't get dex to damage from Slashing Grace feat.
Slashing grace specifies one handed weapon, and that specific weapon gets dex to damage

at first i thought about enlarging dagger or kukri into one handed. but hte last line sadly ends that line o fthinking.
i see no way other than agile to get dex to damage on light weapons

Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.


Zwordsman wrote:

Kukri don't get dex to damage from Slashing Grace feat.

Slashing grace specifies one handed weapon, and that specific weapon gets dex to damage

Ah. There we go. That is what I didn't notice. I just read one-handed weapon. Now I understand the confusion. That's pretty janky


Yeah, it's a shame.
I understand the hiccup though. I missed the size restrictions when I was trying to figure a way out. since My brain went in circles over and over and kinda just glossed over it.


I can't find slashing grace, what source is it from?

Scarab Sages

SillyString wrote:
I can't find slashing grace, what source is it from?

ACG


Has it been uploaded to the pfsrd under a different name? Sounds like something promising that I want to look up.


pfsrd is still in the process of uploading all the stuff from the ACG. I don't know if it will change names or not.


The Developers who work on the rules side have since the beginning been afraid of DEX to damage. The reason is not how great it makes TWF though that is an issue. The real concern is that it makes DEX which is already a prized stat for many builds, even better. Hence it is not just a swashbuckler class feature but they are making it cost a feat.


Gnomezrule wrote:
The Developers who work on the rules side have since the beginning been afraid of DEX to damage. The reason is not how great it makes TWF though that is an issue. The real concern is that it makes DEX which is already a prized stat for many builds, even better. Hence it is not just a swashbuckler class feature but they are making it cost a feat.

Which has been proven profusely in this thread and the many others that were spawned with the same concern of "Where's the Dex at?" Allowing Dexterity builds currently is not only not gamebreaking, but is also an inoptimal choice, given the options Strength builds have that outweigh any benefits a Dexterity build could possibly gain.

Quite frankly, it's much more defensible to say that the Devs never cared to have Dexterity to Attack/Damage as an option, and just chopped out a lot of 3.5 copypaste material to follow that vision.

You want to go two-handed Dexterity? No 1.5x Dexterity to damage, and you can't utilize Piranha Strike with it unless it's a Light Weapon, which is double-negative for 1.5x Dexterity; it also doesn't scale up with handedness like Power Attack does. So you're dealing significantly less damage than a two-handed Strength with having to spend even more investment.

You want to go two-weapon Dexterity? You have to be extremely niche in item selection, invest in obscure effects, and forgo damage dice because you have to use Light crap in order to be any good; this also means you should be a Crit Fisher, so unless it's 18-20/X2 in multiplier, you can just go kill yourself for being useful in melee combat. Did I mention you have to give up at least 4 feats (40% of the grand total you normally obtain) in order to be any good at it, like the Vital Strike chain?

All that for what, slightly better acrobatics, Touch AC (regular AC will be unaffected, because heavier armor counterbalances it), and Reflex Saves? At the cost of effectively reduced damage, and the carrying capacity of a fly? Not worth for anyone in my opinion.

By rights, denying options to make them thrive is what really questions the entire purpose of allowing feats like Weapon Finesse to be of any use, other than for Paizo to just implement 3.X Copypaste material because they're lazy to edit out what they like/hate about those predecessor aspects.

While I can definitely find use for Weapon Finesse, none of them involves directly damaging somebody in melee combat, moreso helping me enable others who didn't dump Strength to better damage somebody in melee combat.


Imbicatus wrote:
The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.

I agree, though apparently they forgot about Saw Tooth Sabers...this REALLY makes me want to play a red mantis assassin!

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