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Evening all....
Much like the rest of you I am very excited for the release of the ACG.. should be interesting!
BUT.....
Can anyone give me a breakdown of the Ecclesitheurge archetype?
As much as its good that they have given us what I'm seeing is an unarmoured priest type class... I have a feeling of dissapointment forboding!! I've seen a couple of bits and bobs but not the full picture of the archetype.
The class has such huge potential IMO and with 3PP publishers showing what can be done with the cleric class (Priest, theosophist), I just hope they have done it justice but I fear NOT!!
The cleric class IMO got seriously over nerfed from 3.5 and Paizo have done very little to address the imbalance.... from day 1 it has been clear that they really dont like the cleric at all!
And from what I hear the Warpriest has been nerfed even more whilst the Arcanist is completely and obviously OP!!! Leaving aside the fact that neither class was necessary IMO....the Arcanist now OPs both the wizard and sorceror (2 classes that already dont need any extra juice!)
I hope to be wrong but I dont think I am.... the D6 1/2 BAB divine class that offers so much potential both in gameplay and roleplay has not transpired.
A bit tragic I fear.... :((
I saw/played enough of the playtest Warpriest and Arcanist to get the initial picture now combine that with what I have read on the forums about the finished products and...... SOMETHING SMELLS!!!
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Ecclesitheurge cannot wear armor or use shields, bonded object with holy symbol, and this...
Domain Mastery: At 1st level, when an ecclesitheurge
chooses his cleric domains, he designates one as his
primary domain and the other as his secondary domain.
An ecclesitheurge can use his non-domain spell slots to
prepare spells from his primary domain’s spell list.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can
select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access
to that domain’s spell list instead of his secondary domain
spell list. He does not lose access to his actual secondary
domain’s granted powers or gain access to the other domain’s
granted powers.
The Cleric is one of the Strongest classes in the game. Yes the Arcanist is strong, unfortunately I do not yet have the pdf or book (still waiting). But all of the full casters can be strong and because of the clerics affinity for martial it makes it almost as strong if not stronger then most arcane classes.
I played through WOTR with a Crusader Cleric and she was a match for the Arcanist that was playing through it.
I have not played a war priest but some of Owen's comments in the Warpriest thread sounded really good.
lol how dare they take away our clerical kaiju.
Don't worry about it, fella. The cleric, sorcerer, oracle, witch, and wizard will always be 9th level casters even if the arcanist has an edge over them.
And in a larger context that counts for a lot. I was worried about the arcanist once, but eh, I don't think it's enough to warrant fear.
To be honest its not so much the issue of the Arcanist being OP..... which it clearly is IMO.... its the fact that its completely unwarranted.... I mean what exactly does it represent?!
But my real beef is that Paizo had an opportunity to do a great job with a class that clearly had a place..... the unarmoured, unweaponed 'Holy Man'..... he who had no need of armour or blade but who had complete faith in the power of his deity.... but what we end up with is the Ecclesitheurge which is IMO a pretty lame excuse of an archetype.
I've always thought that actually the Oracle had a pretty sketchy place in the scheme of things in terms of roleplay and what is actually represented.... Cleric - YES, Paladin - YES, Inquisitor - YES.... these are all classes that have a place thematically and from a RP perspective. For me divinity is all about having a focal point... a deity from which to draw power.... the Oracle is just too flaky IMO.
If all the Ecclesitheurge has is what Ive seen on the forums then I'm sorry then its a ^&%$ poor job.... truly a golden opportunity missed and further evidence that Paizo seems determined to do the cleric a poor service.
Instead of doing what should be done and going the full way.... D6 life, 1/2 BAB, no armour, barest minimum or even no physical weapons but divine power max to compensate they have given us an off the cuff, slapdash, completely half hearted archetype. What makes it even more annoying is that a couple of 3PP have clearly seen the need and done pretty decent jobs with coming up with some class ideas.
Disappointing Paizo.... soooooo disappointing and yet sadly not at all surprising.
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If all the Ecclesitheurge has is what Ive seen on the forums then I'm sorry then its a ^&%$ poor job.... truly a golden opportunity missed and further evidence that Paizo seems determined to do the cleric a poor service.Instead of doing what should be done and going the full way.... D6 life, 1/2 BAB, no armour, barest minimum or even no physical weapons but divine power max to compensate they have given us an off the cuff, slapdash, completely half hearted archetype. What makes it even more annoying is that a couple of 3PP have clearly seen the need and done pretty decent jobs with coming up with some class ideas.
Disappointing Paizo.... soooooo disappointing and yet sadly not at all surprising.
You do know that the authors of these things read the forums, right?
Yes I am completely aware.... in fact I'm counting on it!
As a customer who over the years has spent a significant sum of money on purchasing the PF books and guides I am entitled to give honest feedback. If you sit back meekly and say nothing how on earth do you expect things to improve? I have been involved with pen and paper gaming for over 20 years..... I'm not saying I'm an expert but I sure as hell know something!
Paizo should welcome such feedback not steer clear of it. I am genuinely disappointed with some of the decisions Paizo have made regarding classes. I think the ACG was badly planned, massively rushed and instead of giving us classes that fulfilled a genuine need has merely served to unbalance things further.
It's like when people moan about the country and the economy but then declare they don't vote.....
Paizo (and most of their contributors) do welcome feedback. I believe Cheapy was more commenting on your tone and choice of words in your feedback.
Setting that aside, I honestly have no idea what you were looking for in a castier cleric. It seems like this archetype adds quite a bit of versatility with Domain Mastery. Perhaps you could elaborate on specifics that you would have liked to see, and what should have been traded out to balance them?
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Majuba has the right of it. Constructive criticism is a good thing. "Your work is bad and you should feel bad" is not.
How have I not been constructive?!?!
The need for a proper D6 divine class is one that has long been recognised on the forums.... I'm not suggesting anything revolutionary here!! There have been many posts on the subject. Re-stating the obvious would hardly help.....
Leaving that fact aside.... it is glaringly obvious that there is a gap for the class.... as I said several 3PP have already had a good go at creating one and 3.5 had the equivalent too.
And in addition the notion that the ACG contains dubious and unnecessary archetypes and hybrid classes is hardly breaking news either..... just do a forum search..... I imagine 'Arcanist' and 'OP' or 'unnecessary' would generate a fair few results!!!
Thus.... I stand by my critique..... the Ecclesitheurge is a wasted opportunity, the Arcanist is OP and unnecessary and several other of the classes/archetypes represent very little in terms of RP or thematic relevance.
20+ years of PNP roleplay gives me the confidence that I know what Im talking about....
To be honest its not so much the issue of the Arcanist being OP..... which it clearly is IMO.... its the fact that its completely unwarranted.... I mean what exactly does it represent?!
But my real beef is that Paizo had an opportunity to do a great job with a class that clearly had a place..... the unarmoured, unweaponed 'Holy Man'..... he who had no need of armour or blade but who had complete faith in the power of his deity.... but what we end up with is the Ecclesitheurge which is IMO a pretty lame excuse of an archetype.
I've always thought that actually the Oracle had a pretty sketchy place in the scheme of things in terms of roleplay and what is actually represented.... Cleric - YES, Paladin - YES, Inquisitor - YES.... these are all classes that have a place thematically and from a RP perspective. For me divinity is all about having a focal point... a deity from which to draw power.... the Oracle is just too flaky IMO.
If all the Ecclesitheurge has is what Ive seen on the forums then I'm sorry then its a ^&%$ poor job.... truly a golden opportunity missed and further evidence that Paizo seems determined to do the cleric a poor service.
Instead of doing what should be done and going the full way.... D6 life, 1/2 BAB, no armour, barest minimum or even no physical weapons but divine power max to compensate they have given us an off the cuff, slapdash, completely half hearted archetype. What makes it even more annoying is that a couple of 3PP have clearly seen the need and done pretty decent jobs with coming up with some class ideas.
Disappointing Paizo.... soooooo disappointing and yet sadly not at all surprising.
Well the problem is that 3.X/Pathfinder kind of wrote themselves into a corner with the cleric...
I mean with 3/4 BAB
D8 HD
Light and Medium Armor proficiency AND armor casting in all armor
And the 2nd best spell list in the game (second only to the wizard/sorcerer/arcanist list)
It is kind of hard to create a new thing without trampling on the Paladin or pushing the cleric into absurdity range in spell casting (like into wizard territory).
All of us here vote (in your analogy). But your complaint is that Arcanists are over powered and one Cleric archtype isn't as good as you would have wanted.
And as you said, 3PP already did show what can be done with the cleric class. You already got what you wanted. Should Paizo steal their stuff?
But as I've said its more than that.... Paizo have invested time and money in classes/archetypes that really have no justification. Its not just about the cleric and the arcanist.... these 2 are IMO merely the most glaring examples. What they should have done is create classes that actually have thematic and RP merit.
And as regards 3PP stuff.... its not part of the PF world so my group doesnt use them by and large.... BUT IT DOES SHOW the will and the way
Why don't you wait to see the archetype first? i haven't seen it so i can't comment to it.
Ecclesitheurge’s Vow: At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast cleric spells.
I'm going to guess that 'blessing of the faithful' was edited out without removing the reference under the ability (akin to the initial Prone Shooter editing) but I sortof hope it's just missing rather than removed.
As is the archetype isn't close to an even trade off (3 feats and a downgrade to weapons), plus a hit to channel energy (at a level when it's actually useful) in exchange for 1 spontaneous spell\day and the ability to swap out a domain spell list. Considering most deities offer 5 domains (plus related subdomains) I'm highly doubtful there is anything on the domain spell lists to remotely fill in the hole left by loss of armor\weapons.
I do not think it'd be a close to even trade off even if the archetype was applied to a philosophy\pantheistic cleric considering the ability to prepare domain spells in non-domain slots only pertains to his primary domain. So the cleric is only getting 1 spell per spell level from his secondary domain spell list anyway.
Walking my players through\around 'trap-options' (that seem especially plentiful in paizo archetypes) isn't one of my favorite things to do. I can generally help them get to the concepts they want (usually with vanilla options) at the start of the campaign so I don't have to waste time down the road when the player realizes they aren't terribly happy with how their PC is developing... but the ecclesitheurge could have filled a role that at present doesn't exist in PF.
It's alright. Make a great npc archetype tho, if you want to have that classic priest look.
? Just take a normal cleric and put him in robes instead of armor. NPC clerics in general don't do much spellcasting for a party (without a donation) and the enemy NPC clerics don't generally live past one encounter (making picking a flexible secondary domain a moot point).
I guess you could have a 'screw you' factor to a hostile NPC cleric by putting his encounter wealth into making his holy symbol magical (and thus worthless after his death). Not so sure players would love that;-).
The impression I get from this archetype is that it adds a "nice to have" for players who were already going to make a cleric that doesn't use weapons or armor anyway. If there's a hit to channeling, though, that seems counterintuitive.
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Ecclesitheurge’s Vow: At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast cleric spells.I'm going to guess that 'blessing of the faithful' was edited out without removing the reference under the ability (akin to the initial Prone Shooter editing) but I sortof hope it's just missing rather than removed.
As is the archetype isn't close to an even trade off (3 feats and a downgrade to weapons), plus a hit to channel energy (at a level when it's actually useful) in exchange for 1 spontaneous spell\day and the ability to swap out a domain spell list. Considering most deities offer 5 domains (plus related subdomains) I'm highly doubtful there is anything on the domain spell lists to remotely fill in the hole left by loss of armor\weapons.
I do not think it'd be a close to even trade off even if the archetype was applied to a philosophy\pantheistic cleric considering the ability to prepare domain spells in non-domain slots only pertains to his primary domain. So the cleric is only getting 1 spell per spell level from his secondary domain spell list anyway.
Walking my players through\around 'trap-options' (that seem especially plentiful in paizo archetypes) isn't one of my favorite things to do. I can generally help them get to the concepts they want (usually with vanilla options) at the start of the campaign so I don't have to waste time down the road when the player realizes they aren't terribly happy with how their PC is developing... but the ecclesitheurge could have filled a role that at present doesn't exist in PF.
Thanks for the update - I dont suppose you could post a full break down of the archetype?
LOL..... and judging by this update the archetype is even worse than I originally thought..... shocking just shocking! Judging by the butchers job thats been done it has completely screwed over the cleric class as a whole for the future too.... its created goal posts that make future mods to the cleric just about impossible.
Such a wasted opportunity...... especially since I thought (along with many others) that the Warpriest was an unnecessary addition too!!
And from what I gather arcane classes have been UNNECESSARILY amped up/modified too (I hear rumours of a spontaneous witch and Exploiter Wizard??....can someone explain that to me??!) .... partly because Paizo seemingly like to do these things and partly to compensate for the OPing of the Arcanist..... which ironically only serves to futher imbalance the game especially in terms of caster vs non-caster. Complete and utter farce. All concept of thematics and RP completely thrown out of the window.
Hang your head in shame Paizo..... instead of using your brains to devise classes/archetypes that actually had relevance, even if that meant having a very limited number, you have.... well to be honest I have no idea as to what you were thinking, but I'm sure an over emphasis on money had something to do with it. To say Im disappointed would be an understatement.
I think the release of the ACG could well be a pivotal point in the history of Paizo and PF
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Maybe...just maybe...judge the book after its been released on the PRD, instead of rumor and posted comments?
As for the Ecclesitheurge...My guess is part of the problem is that its something that would be better off as a full class, not an archetype. baseline clerics are already really powerful, since they get 9 level casting but can also fight well and have some other bells and whistles attached to them. Kind of hard to do a 1/2 BAB divine caster that doesn't seem like a nerfed cleric when you lack the freedom of creating new mechanics for them as well.
Personally, I think bringing some elements of the bard and pairing them with a 1/2 BAB cleric could be a good way of creating such a class.
Ecclesitheurge’s Vow: At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast cleric spells.I'm going to guess that 'blessing of the faithful' was edited out without removing the reference under the ability (akin to the initial Prone Shooter editing) but I sortof hope it's just missing rather than removed.
Or maybe that ability was the original name of the ability to enchant your holy symbol a la Arcane Bond? Then you would lose all archetype abilities when you break your armor vow.
I would agree that this archetype is not worthwhile on its own -- but I could see it as an option for a multi-classed cleric who isn't going to wear armor anyway.
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Monk/Cleric could get a kick outta this
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The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery. I know this because I wrote the archetype.
The ability to prepare domain spells in non-domain slots is actually pretty huge, especially for domains that have many wizard only spells on it. With this archetype, you can finally be a cleric of fire that can cast fireball more than once per day (and have a second domain). This also lets you cherry pick useful spells that the cleric wouldn't normally have access to, as the situation changes. Maybe you know ahead of time that you'll need a teleport the next day, as a Desnan ecclesitheurge. No problem, just choose Travel as the secondary domain (if for some reason it wasn't your primary :)), and you can now teleport the party. It's spell-picking versatility that the cleric previously lacked. The Shadow Patron is widely seen as one of the best Witch Patrons, just because it opens up access to many evocation and conjuration spells of the Wizard. Same principle, except you need a bit more foresight.
The bonded holy symbol is also useful. It saves money, which is nice, but more importantly, it lets you pull out a trump card when needed. Remember, when a wizard starts out, they need to choose between one extra spell per day of something they potentially didn't prepare and an entire extra set of actions. And the Arcane Bond is still chosen pretty often! The primary use of it is to react to situations, and is often used for getting that perfect spell for out of combat usage. Both of those uses are where the Cleric spell list excels: reactionary and curative.
It's absolutely a more wizard-like cleric, focusing on the versatility aspects of the wizard that make him the go-to class for powergamers.
In any event, this archetype was one of the first ones that RavingDork created a character after getting the ACG, so it must be at least decent.
Thanks for the update - I dont suppose you could post a full break down of the archetype?
Ecclesitheurge (Archetype)
Eschewing physical armor for protection via the strength
of his faith, an ecclesitheurge focuses on the miracles his
deity bestows and the breadth of that deity’s dominion.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ecclesitheurge is
prof icient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light
crossbow, and quarterstaff, but he’s not proficient with any
type of armor or shield. This replaces the cleric’s weapon
and armor proficiencies.Ecclesitheurge’s Vow: At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes
a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by
armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears prohibited
armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use his blessing
of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast
cleric spells.Domain Mastery: At 1st level, when an ecclesitheurge
chooses his cleric domains, he designates one as his
primary domain and the other as his secondary domain.
An ecclesitheurge can use his non-domain spell slots to
prepare spells from his primary domain’s spell list.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can
select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access
to that domain’s spell list instead of his secondary domain
spell list. He does not lose access to his actual secondary
domain’s granted powers or gain access to the other domain’s
granted powers. For example, an ecclesitheurge of
Sarenrae with Glory and his primary domain and
Good as his secondary domain can choose to gain
access to the Healing domain; until the next time he
prepares spells, he uses the Healing domain spell list
as his secondary domain spell list instead of the Good
domain spell list, but still keeps the granted powers of
the Good domain and does not gain the granted powers
of the Healing domain.This ability alters the normal domain ability.
Bonded Holy Symbol (Su): At 3rd level, an ecclesitheurge
forms a powerful bond with a holy symbol of his deity, akin to
a wizard’s bonded object. Once per day, a bonded holy symbol
can be used to cast any one spell that the ecclesitheurge
has on his cleric or domain spell list that day. This spell
is treated like any other spell cast by the ecclesitheurge,
including with respect to casting time, duration, and other
effects dependent on the ecclesitheurge’s level. This spell
cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilitiesAn ecclesitheurge can add additional magic abilities to his
bonded holy symbol as if he had the required item creation
feat (typically Craft Wondrous Item), provided he meets the
feat’s level prerequisites. For example, an ecclesitheurge with
a bonded holy symbol necklace must be at least 3rd level to
add magic abilities to the item. The magic properties of a
bonded holy symbol, including any magic abilities added to
the object, function for only the ecclesitheurge. If a bonded
holy symbol’s owner dies or the item is replaced, the object
reverts to being an ordinary holy symbol.If a bonded holy symbol is damaged, it is restored to full
hit points the next time the ecclesitheurge gains his spells
for the day. If the holy symbol is lost or destroyed, it can
be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200
gp per cleric level plus the cost of the holy symbol itself.
This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Items replaced in
this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments
of the previous bonded holy symbol. An ecclesitheurge
can instead designate an existing holy symbol as his
bonded holy symbol. This functions in the same way as
replacing a lost or destroyed item, except that the new holy
symbol retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and
drawbacks of becoming a bonded holy symbol.This ability replaces the increase to channel energy
gained at 3rd level.
It's not a terrible archetype if you're looking to play that sort of character... but it does feel like it's missing something.
It's not a terrible archetype if you're looking to play that sort of character... but it does feel like it's missing something.To me it feels like it's missing a way to get Mage Armor or an equivalent. But maybe that's just me.
Ditto. Right now it just feels too flimsy to stand in an actual adventuring campaign. The cleric list just cant stand on its own to justify a more casty cleric. Domains too often just have cleric spells on them as well.
The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery. I know this because I wrote the archetype.
If it's not too much to ask, can you share what that ability was supposed to do prior to it being axed?
It's Paizo's property now, so I won't be. They made the call to focus on another aspect of the archetype, and I respect that. Pretend the reference to the ability doesn't exist :)
That's entirely fair, given I wasn't 100% sure how much ownership you had over it I thought it was worth asking :P.
The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery. I know this because I wrote the archetype.
The ability to prepare domain spells in non-domain slots is actually pretty huge, especially for domains that have many wizard only spells on it. With this archetype, you can finally be a cleric of fire that can cast fireball more than once per day (and have a second domain). This also lets you cherry pick useful spells that the cleric wouldn't normally have access to, as the situation changes. Maybe you know ahead of time that you'll need a teleport the next day, as a Desnan ecclesitheurge. No problem, just choose Travel as the secondary domain (if for some reason it wasn't your primary :)), and you can now teleport the party. It's spell-picking versatility that the cleric previously lacked. The Shadow Patron is widely seen as one of the best Witch Patrons, just because it opens up access to many evocation and conjuration spells of the Wizard. Same principle, except you need a bit more foresight.
The bonded holy symbol is also useful. It saves money, which is nice, but more importantly, it lets you pull out a trump card when needed. Remember, when a wizard starts out, they need to choose between one extra spell per day of something they potentially didn't prepare and an entire extra set of actions. And the Arcane Bond is still chosen pretty often! The primary use of it is to react to situations, and is often used for getting that perfect spell for out of combat usage. Both of those uses are where the Cleric spell list excels: reactionary and curative.
It's absolutely a more wizard-like cleric, focusing on the versatility aspects of the wizard that make him the go-to class for powergamers.
In any event, this archetype was one of the first ones that RavingDork created a character after getting the ACG, so it must be at least decent.
To put it simply and I genuinely mean no disrespect..... its a half arsed archetype.
By removing the clerics armour and weapons capability - which I agree with, and would have gone slightly further in fact and said that they could only use the quarterstaff and their deities chosen weapon - you push the class down pure caster route (which was the objective).
BUT.....As it stands in terms of trade off I feel that in order for it to be balanced, a permanent 3rd domain (as opposed to 2 domains that can be altered) OR the ability to put both domain spell slots in non-domain slots is required. You forget that cleric spells crop up a lot in domain lists and so are already irrelevant to the balancing arguement. Or if you didnt want that then upping the skill points to 4 or 6/level. Oh and knocking the channeling down a notch was fairly pointless IMO. In addition saying "Ohhhh you can now cast fireball more than once!"... well whoopee do!.... that really isnt that much to get excited about... and certainly no way near being enough to justify the changes!
BUT 2..... As it stands you have a cleric that you have pushed down the pure caster route but who has attributes that are now defunct ie) D8 HD and 3/4 BAB...... the Ecclesitheurge isnt going to be wading in to help the warrior anymore so why bother to keep the BAB and HD? Do what is right, strip them off and now you can start creating a proper class. In fact their is an arguement to strip the channeling too and make him really distinct. This guy is a holyman.... he isnt really going to be using physical weapons at all! I would in fact have given them the worst BAB in the game... which I think thematically would be sound.
With his BAB and HD and possibly channeling gone.... now you can start cooking something up that is actually interesting and RP relevant.... bonus feats, something akin to 'Divine Interventions' that can enhance aspects of his casting, holy/unholy smites, quickened party buffs... etc etc.....there is any number of directions you could go. NOW THAT IS A CLASS WORTH PLAYING. As it stands the 3PP versions are far better balanced and much more interesting.
BUT 3.... the cleric is a MAD class and you should have tried to make it more SAD.... but you havent in the slightest. In fact in some respects you have made it worse.... by putting the archetype in a limbo of sorts!
BUT 4.... IMO the objective should have been create an uber-squishy and physically vulnerable PC but one who is capable of supreme feats of divinity.... a real Biblical "fire and damnation" character.
But what is worst of all is that by doing this archetype half baked you have effectively condemned the cleric to forever go stagnant. Goalposts are now in play that make doing a proper job with the class almost impossible. You would have been better not doing anything at all.
Sorry to say sir.....a really poor job IMO.... but sadly unsurprising given Paizo's previous work with clerics.
The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery.
If it was an issue of space, I'd gladly trade that little ecclesitheurge dwarf illustration (cool as it is) for this mystery ability. Whatever could it have been?
Thank you for the constructive portions of the feedback.
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...The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery. I know this because I wrote the archetype.
The ability to prepare domain spells in non-domain slots is actually pretty huge, especially for domains that have many wizard only spells on it. With this archetype, you can finally be a cleric of fire that can cast fireball more than once per day (and have a second domain). This also lets you cherry pick useful spells that the cleric wouldn't normally have access to, as the situation changes. Maybe you know ahead of time that you'll need a teleport the next day, as a Desnan ecclesitheurge. No problem, just choose Travel as the secondary domain (if for some reason it wasn't your primary :)), and you can now teleport the party. It's spell-picking versatility that the cleric previously lacked. The Shadow Patron is widely seen as one of the best Witch Patrons, just because it opens up access to many evocation and conjuration spells of the Wizard. Same principle, except you need a bit more foresight.
The bonded holy symbol is also useful. It saves money, which is nice, but more importantly, it lets you pull out a trump card when needed. Remember, when a wizard starts out, they need to choose between one extra spell per day of something they potentially didn't prepare and an entire extra set of actions. And the Arcane Bond is still chosen pretty often! The primary use of it is to react to situations, and is often used for getting that perfect spell for out of combat usage. Both of those uses are where the Cleric spell list excels: reactionary and curative.
It's absolutely a more wizard-like cleric, focusing on the versatility aspects of the wizard that make him the go-to class for powergamers.
In any event, this archetype was one of the first ones that RavingDork created a character after getting the ACG, so it must be at
Well to play devil's advocate, there really is not much you can do with the cleric... I mean, it has a grand total of 3 class abilites that isnt spells...Channel Energy, Domains, and spontanious casts. Other than that... its kinda empty. And to make a caster as you want, would pretty much require a whole new class, which is why most of the 3PP stuff you see that is "casty cleric" Is a whole different class instead of a cleric archetype.
Here's a question that was left unclear, though. Is a bonded holy symbol supposed to be slotless or can it be selected from the same types of items as the wizard's arcane bond?
Monk/Cleric could get a kick outta thisHoly Fxxx, you're right!
Take a 1 level dip into monk to get wis to AC, focus on buffing your Wis and Dex as top priority, then go in and play as a Bad Touch cleric with more fun spells xD.
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The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery. I know this because I wrote the archetype.
Thanks for posting. What was Blessing of the Faithful?
The ability to prepare domain spells in non-domain slots is actually pretty huge, especially for domains that have many wizard only spells on it. With this archetype, you can finally be a cleric of fire that can cast fireball more than once per day (and have a second domain). This also lets you cherry pick useful spells that the cleric wouldn't normally have access to, as the situation changes. Maybe you know ahead of time that you'll need a teleport the next day, as a Desnan ecclesitheurge. No problem, just choose Travel as the secondary domain (if for some reason it wasn't your primary :)), and you can now teleport the party. It's spell-picking versatility that the cleric previously lacked. The Shadow Patron is widely seen as one of the best Witch Patrons, just because it opens up access to many evocation and conjuration spells of the Wizard. Same principle, except you need a bit more foresight.
Which you can only put into your domain slot (so 1 spell per spell level). And while I allow pantheistic or philosophy clerics in my default setting Golarion game, many do not (including PFS if memory serves and JJ unless he's changed his mind...you must pick a deity). So that's a selection of 3 other domains to hunt through for non-cleric list spells and whatever replacements are in their subdomains. It's an middling tangible benefit but most parties have access to some sort of arcane spellcaster or a stock of scrolls\other magic items (and UMD if needed).
In return the cleric is giving up around 5 AC at lower levels (1-3), and probably double+ that at the mids and while AC is less important at higher levels it's still useful to block iterative attacks. This archetype isn't a battle cleric but even a wizard is generally walking around with +4 force armor at level 1 (vs +1 for a cleric with a defense spell) because there's usually more than enough kobolds to go around (or other mooks at higher levels).
The bonded holy symbol is also useful. It saves money, which is nice, but more importantly, it lets you pull out a trump card when needed. Remember, when a wizard starts out, they need to choose between one extra spell per day of something they potentially didn't prepare and an entire extra set of actions. And the Arcane Bond is still chosen pretty often! The primary use of it is to react to situations, and is often used for getting that perfect spell for out of combat usage. Both of those uses are where the Cleric spell list excels: reactionary and curative.
It's absolutely a more wizard-like cleric, focusing on the versatility aspects of the wizard that make him the go-to class for powergamers.
Reduced cost that's the same as picking Craft Wondrous Item...which is generally a decent feat pick for most campaigns anyway. The benefit of Craft Wondrous Item is the item isn't essentially destroyed when the PC dies. I like to run the APs for the timesavings (maps and mooks) even if I have to profoundly alter the plots, bbegs, and add critters to span out the encounters for my table of 6, but I have never run an AP where no one has died... save or die are not rare events in the baseline APs (and 1s happen). The cleric is feat starved (certainly moreso than wizard) but if a cleric wants to magic up his holy symbol it's much better insurance to do it through Craft Wondrous Item.
The spell on the fly is a benefit but cleric's spells tend to be more of the buffing variety rather than the 'flashier-encounter-ender' species found on arcane lists. They can already cast their healing (or injury) spells spontaneously. There are a few condition modifiers that are rarely used but absolutely vital when needed, but again Scribe Scroll fills the same role. Add to the fact clerics can leave open slots as well to assign later in the day....
To pay for this one it's a d6 off of channel at 3rd level when 2d6 vs 1d6 makes a difference. By itself the tradeoff is probably around equivalent (around 8d6 of healing\day vs 4d6 and 1 extra spell), but all things considered I'd suggest to my players other means if they were intent on sniping spells from other spell lists rather than just leave it to the arcane caster.
In any event, this archetype was one of the first ones that RavingDork created a character after getting the ACG, so it must be at least decent.
I'm sure RavingDork will hunt through the deity list and find one of the handful that grant domains that give him the additional spell selection he wants for his build. He probably has enough system mastery that the party he adventures with won't miss the secondary fighter role he traded out (and touch ranged spells as well probably became a bad option). It doesn't function as a role replacement for an arcane caster (fewer feats for one), alot of his domain granted powers are touch range, and in a classic party the cleric has gone to becoming another liability for the fighters to protect (in return for a limited list of spells to snipe from that the arcane caster already has access to).
Take a 1 level dip into monk to get wis to AC, focus on buffing your Wis and Dex as top priority, then go in and play as a Bad Touch cleric with more fun spells xD.
An armored bad touch cleric is still going to outpace the AC of a monk\cleric counterpart without taking a hit to his spellcasting and class features. Breastplate with shield with magic vestment on both.
It's a playable archetype (unlike VoP monk) and it actually helps you in your role as primary caster (unlike the cloistered cleric which actually makes you worse), but i feel that
a) it doesn't gain much for what it trades out and
b) that it has too many restrictions (not changing the domain powers, not using metamagic (or other tricks) on the free casting from bonded object, losing money on the bonded object's enchantments when you are raised from the dead).
The ability Blessing of the Faithful was in fact removed in Development, I believe to make space for all the rules necessary for the Divine Bonded Object and the example necessary for Domain Mastery. I know this because I wrote the archetype.Thanks for posting. What was Blessing of the Faithful?
He mentioned he wouldn't be saying what Blessing of the Faithful did.
It's Paizo's property now, so I won't be. They made the call to focus on another aspect of the archetype, and I respect that. Pretend the reference to the ability doesn't exist :)
Take a 1 level dip into monk to get wis to AC, focus on buffing your Wis and Dex as top priority, then go in and play as a Bad Touch cleric with more fun spells xD.
An armored bad touch cleric is still going to outpace the AC of a monk\cleric counterpart without taking a hit to his spellcasting and class features. Breastplate with shield with magic vestment on both.
Idk...
It is like comparing the dex Kensai to the heavy armored strength magus. In the end, the dex Kensai actually has a higher AC than the magus because you become more SAD, allowing you to pump up your dex and int (or in this case Wis) to some really rediculous levels...
Why do I feel like the Blessing of the Faithful ability is an AC increasing ability... like adding Wis to AC or 1/2 level or something like that... It just... FEELS like that kind of ability...