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What are the other Apocryphal Domains, and what can they do?

What can the Divine Paragon do? Do we finally get an awesome caster cleric from it?

Also, what is special about the apocryphal subdomains?

I just noticed feats called Acute Shot and Superior Sniper, which seem odd because they don't sound that magic-y. What do they do?

Luthorne wrote:
Sharkles wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
Symbolic Mastery is one I really like: Using a holy symbol, you may make a ranged attack based on your religion's domain...depending on the domain, your attack can be just about any energy (force appeared to be excluded) and even untyped! Damage is based on UMD ranks(1/2) and a d6. Not optimal, but useful, fun and thematic!

Are there limited uses per day to Symbolic Mastery like most Item Mastery feats? Is there a save required, and if so, is that based on CON? What are the pre-reqs?

I ask because that sounds perfect for several of my clerics, but I don't want to get my hopes up in case the logistics don't work out.

You can use it a number of times per day equal to your base Fortitude bonus. You need 4 ranks of Use Magic Device, and a +2 base Fortitude saving throw bonus. No save, just a touch attack or a ranged touch attack.

What a beautiful feat (though yes, not optimal). Thank you!

Fourshadow wrote:
Symbolic Mastery is one I really like: Using a holy symbol, you may make a ranged attack based on your religion's domain...depending on the domain, your attack can be just about any energy (force appeared to be excluded) and even untyped! Damage is based on UMD ranks(1/2) and a d6. Not optimal, but useful, fun and thematic!

Are there limited uses per day to Symbolic Mastery like most Item Mastery feats? Is there a save required, and if so, is that based on CON? What are the pre-reqs?

I ask because that sounds perfect for several of my clerics, but I don't want to get my hopes up in case the logistics don't work out.

Lord Gadigan wrote:
No. Anaphexia Thought-Killer is the only Vigilante Archetype in here, and while it restricts the social identity to a Pharasmin priest with a vow of silence and has some powers that work across the two, it doesn't remove either.

Yeah, I figured.

How about the 'gadgeteer' alchemist? What does it gain and what gets replaced?

Lord Gadigan wrote:

Have only glanced through it, but my initial impressions of this are positive. Things I noticed:

* The Summoner archetype applies to both Chained and Unchained Summoners. I'm pleased to see them both getting support instead of just the Unchained one.
* Libraries! Nifty!
* Lots of schools. It's good seeing that system expanded with new options.
* Building upgrades! Line your walls to block divination (or all magic)!
* Anaphexia fit with Vigilante well.
* Gadgeteer-styled alchemist! Glad to have one of those. Might be a bit of a money-sink if the item-tinkering gets used too much, but it's good to at least have the fast-crafting versatility, limited and costly though it may be.


** spoiler omitted **

Is there a Vigilante archetype that replaces the vigilante (or social) identity?

Imbicatus wrote:
BardWannabe wrote:
Are there any new alternatives to Shield Slam for making shield bashing more desirable (especially for those whose GMs rule that the bull rush is not optional in Shield Slam)?

Yes. There are options for a free trip at -5 or inflicting a -2 to AC on a successful bash.

There are also options for making a Tower Shield useful that can be used by anyone, not just that one fighter archetype.

What, pray tell, are these useful Tower Shield options and what do they do? I know there's the Mobile Bulwark Style line (which I'd also like details for), but I'm curious about anything else for tower shields.

What are the Armor Mastery and Shield Mastery Feats and what do they do?

Skeld, PDF Prophet wrote:
Sharkles wrote:
This may be a bit of a stretch to ask so early, but is there a way for low-DEX sword-and-board users to bypass TWF pre-reqs?

I did a quick search and I didn't see anything, but this will probably take some additional digesting to answer properly.

As more people get PDFs, i expect this will become more clear.


That's what I thought. Maybe it's hidden in there somewhere!

How about a list of feats instead?

This may be a bit of a stretch to ask so early, but is there a way for low-DEX sword-and-board users to bypass TWF pre-reqs?

Is the Vigilante and its archetypes MAD? Or is it (IIRC) mostly charisma-based like in the playtest?

What can the new rogue archetypes and talents do? (Sorry if this has been already answered.)

Are any of the cavalier archetypes mountless?

What stuff is there for fighters?

What do the new rogue talents do? (I like the sound of 'Hidden Mind'--shoring up the bad Will save, maybe?)

What are the archetypes for clerics, druids, rangers, and spiritualists like?

Are there any archetypes not listed in the blog post?

What nifty tricks can the wood and void elements do? What kind of composite blasts can they create? Is void like the anti-aether?

Finally, is there now a way to deal acid damage with a kinetic blast? I hope so; it's the unloved energy type!

My Self wrote:
Specify simple blast for the first part.

I knew I missed something. Fixed!

My Self wrote:
Also, the number of blasts a day should be limited or weakened, significantly, you shouldn't be able to steal a Kineticist's whole deal just by taking a feat.

I was definitely worried about that, but how do you suggest I limit it? Give it a separate level+CHA pool or something like that?

The reason I stuck with at-will is because I figured that kineticists getting infusions and wild talents gave them more worth than just doing damage.

My Self wrote:
If you need to weaken it, have it be based off CON. Otherwise, CHA scaling shouldn't hurt too much.

I'm not worried about that because CHA is too often pushed aside. Besides, clerics are MAD enough without selecting this feat.

Also, I realised that you can technically get a composite blast at 3rd level with this feat. Lovely. Gonna have to fix that somehow.

Hi, I'm Sharkles and I like clerics. A lot. I'm always looking for opportunities to make more varied and interesting via homebrew.

To my knowledge, there has never been the option for a cleric of an elemental deity to channel anything other than positive or negative energy, even though it would be thematically appropriate to do so.

This is why I've thought up this feat, and would appreciate feedback on if it's boring, weak, or overpowered. This includes the name, which I'm not really satisfied with.

    Channel Blast

    Prerequisite: CHA 13; channel energy class feature; air, earth, fire, water, or weather domain.

    Benefit: Select a type of simple blast available to kineticists that matches one of the listed prerequisite domains (air or electric blast for air or weather domain, cold or water blast for water domain, etc.) excluding telekinetic blast. Once this choice is made, you may not change it.

    You may use that type of blast at-will as a kineticist, with effective kineticist level equal to cleric level to determine save DC and using channel energy dice to determine damage (including +1 damage per die for physical blasts). Also, use charisma in place of constitution for all variables associated with the blast.

    You may instead expend 1 use of your channel energy ability to deal this same damage in place of positive or negative energy effects.

    Treat this as channel energy for feats that modify channel energy, such as improved channel or selective channel.

    Benefit: You may select this feat again, allowing you to select a second type of simple blast that matches one of your domains. As well, you may expend 1 use of your channel energy ability to deal damage as per a composite blast associated with two blast types you have available, with the same limitations as listed above.

Good? Bad? Unclear? Anything missing? Please let me know.

I figure that any class can deal comparable (if not more) damage than an at-will kinetic blast, and it doesn't quite steal the kineticist's thunder because it doesn't allow wild talents to be selected or used. However, it has its own specific flair since it can be used as a 30-foot burst based off a limited resource.

Aside from that, I'm not sure I'll stick with the weather domain counting as the air domain for blast types or prereqs, but that's from my own bias; I just don't like the air domain that much.

What tricks does the Constable get with Improved Unarmed Strike? Given the class feature name I'm imagining something involving grappling? Does it also keep the same weapon/armor proficiency? Interesting to think of a grappler in heavy armor...

Kalindlara wrote:
Sharkles wrote:
There was mention of a feat(?) that dealt sneak attacks on a critical hit? Is that anything like 3.5's Telling Blow feat? And what else is there to benefit sneak attacks, or at least enable them more often?
** spoiler omitted **

That was unexpected, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing. I guess it might be for niche builds.

What about the other feats with 'sniper' or 'sneak attack' in the name? Are those any good?

There was mention of a feat(?) that dealt sneak attacks on a critical hit? Is that anything like 3.5's Telling Blow feat? And what else is there to benefit sneak attacks, or at least enable them more often?

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What are the Ambush Awareness, Expert Sniper, Inspired Sneak Attack, Master Sniper Combat, Sneaking Critical, and Terrifying Assault feats like?

What support is there for sniping and/or ranged sneak attacks?

What are the Sensate's and False Medium's abilities? I'm always interested in fighter and rogue support.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
This is an awesome, awesome player companion. Believe it or not, but rogues (specifically the underground chemist archetype) get a LOT of love here.

One of the reviews said there's a rogue talent to gain alchemist bombs? Any other rogue talents? (I suppose it would be too perfect to get a way to flank or otherwise get consistent sneak attack damage at range..)

I'm a bit confused with how some of the brawler archetypes are supposed to work, considering the features that are replaced.

For example, both the Exemplar and Strangler archetypes replace Unarmed Strike. This isn't worded the same as monk archetypes where unarmed damage doesn't increase after a point; it simply replaces Unarmed Strike. Does this mean that the brawler loses Improved Unarmed Strike, which is perhaps their most iconic and basic feat?

In addition, neither of those classes lose Close Weapon Mastery, which is strange because to my understanding, the text says it works based on unarmed damage. Would this mean in these cases that close weapon damage scales, but unarmed damage doesn't? I'm okay with that if so, but this does need clarification.

Here's a question that was left unclear, though. Is a bonded holy symbol supposed to be slotless or can it be selected from the same types of items as the wizard's arcane bond?

Nipin wrote:
Necrovox wrote:
Sharkles wrote:

Yes! I really hope these are addressed and corrected soon! This is the most excited I've been for an archetype in ages, so I'm quite disappointed that this is also the only time I've seen a class feature completely missing.
Here's to hoping it was +wis mod to ac?
I'm not sure why people want a cleric that doesn't wear armor to have AC boosting abilities. The point is to be less of a melee combatant and more of a caster right? An armor-less cleric should defend herself the same way any other caster would (don't stand where they can hit you).

Right, that's my attitude towards it too, but I'm too curious about what the missing Blessing of the Faithful class feature was supposed to do.

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
Necrovox wrote:

Ecclesitheurge has me rather confused.

Ecclesitheurge’s Vow: At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast cleric spells.
The last two are clear, but there is no blessing of the faithful ability...?

Clerics are my favorite class, so this was the first thing I read in the ACG. I am disappointed to see such an error.

Next Issue:

Bonded Holy Symbol wrote:

At 3rd level, an ecclesitheurge forms a powerful bond with a holy symbol of his deity, akin to a wizard’s bonded object...

For example, an ecclesitheurge with a bonded holy symbol necklace must be at least 3rd level to add magic abilities to the item...

It says you must choose a holy symbol, it isn't worded to allow a choice like the wizard's bonded object. Since a holy symbol is slotless, the cost penalties for enhancing it seem to make this ability not nearly worthwhile when compared to the wizard's bonded object. Also, necklaces aren't a legal choice for a wizard's bonded object.

Balance: This archetype seems to be the worst cleric archetype to date. The altered weapon and armor proficiency seems balanced with domain mastery & bonded holy symbol, but nowhere near worth the penalty imposed by the ecclesitheurge’s vow. Maybe the missing blessing of the faithful ability would make this archetype more balanced? ** spoiler omitted **

Yes! I really hope these are addressed and corrected soon! This is the most excited I've been for an archetype in ages, so I'm quite disappointed that this is also the only time I've seen a class feature completely missing.

I would like details on the warsighted archetype. I heard (not sure where) that it's an oracle/brawler hybrid? Does it work out really well for melee oracles? Because I do love my melee oracles.

RHMG Animator wrote:
Sharkles wrote:
What are the brawler archetypes like?

Exemplar -> Inspiring abilities like bard

Mutagenic Mauler -> Adds Mutagen of Alchemist, with progressive abilities
Shield Champion -> Captain America
Snakebite Striker -> A hint of rogue staby-staby and quick shots
Steel-Breaker -> Breaks stuff
Strangler -> If you grapple them, they done.
Wild Child -> Animal companion and hunter tricks

A few of those seem weird for a physical class. Are they keyed off a mental stat in any way?

What are the brawler archetypes like?

Exocrat wrote:
New nominee for most ambiguous feat name: "Energy Channel"

Hmm... Dealing energy damage with channel energy, I'm guessing?

Necromancer wrote:
Hrothdane wrote:
Tell me more about this heavy armor bloodrager. That might mean mine won't need to multiclass :)
Less dodgy, no spell failure, and fighter-like armor abilities.

Can it use shields too?

Adam B. 135 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
I can only imagine that there is something of use to a rogue in here.
I'd personally love it if a few of the Slayer talents are available to rogues. Particularly combat styles, though I am not picky.

Well, rogues can select ninja tricks. Why not slayer or investigator talents?

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Imbicatus wrote:
Sharkles wrote:
Aside from the new archetypes, is there anything to improve rogues?
The new archetypes are very, very, good. Underground chemist gets sneak attack on splash weapons, and int to damage on splash weapons.

Yes, definitely. It's my favourite rogue archetype so far, but I was referring more to rogue talents and such. I keep yearning for a better way to pull off more than one ranged sneak attack in a round.

Aside from the new archetypes, is there anything to improve rogues?

Kairos Dawnfury wrote:
They made a Cleric Archetype that is a priestly type people were asking for.


I'd like details on the archetype, please?

What's the ecclesithurge archetype for clerics like? I've been curious about that since seeing the nifty artwork.

Also, roguish things. Is there a better way to get ranged sneak attack damage? How about dex to damage? And good rogue talents in general?

Is there any reason why the Shaman can't fit this 1/2 BAB, d6 HD mould? It's already super versatile with spellcasting and such, and even gets a familiar, so the combat abilities seem like a surprising addition.

Converting the 3.5e Cloistered Cleric to Pathfinder isn't what I'm looking for. In doing so, I might as well be creating a new class, and in that case I'd be sorely tempted to give it new class features too. I guess the bottom line is that it's not a creative enough solution to be satisfy me.

I guess my real point is, what could turn a Cleric who loses medium armor, shields, most weapon selection, channeling (decided I can part with it, especially if it's getting more INT dependency rather than CHA), whatever else I can be coaxed into giving up, but gains Scribe Scroll, more skill points, and I-can't-believe-it's-not-Bardic-Knowledge into a better caster/skillmonkey in a way that's both balanced and believeable?

MrSin wrote:

Aura, channel energy, domains, spell casting, spontaneous casting, and proficiencies are the only class features a cleric has. I think its extremely poor, and I wish they would've done more with them myself. Their big power is casting though, which isn't something you want to give up(which is why the cloistered cleric archetype is awful.)

I'd say you could give up all your channeling for the archetype if you want a feel for the old 3.5 cleric, channeling didn't exist then and in pathfinder it doesn't scale that well anyway.

It really does match the feel for the 3.5 CC, and I have felt like two class features that spontaneously heal or inflict damage is somewhat redundant, but what justification is there flavor-wise for no channeling? Though I admit my suggestion for diminished channeling wasn't much better. I'd sooner say giving up spontaneous casting makes more sense, as it would mean the CC has a more studious or deliberate approach to magic and can't just switch something out on the fly...or something like that. Truth be told, dropping channeling does fit if I want to incorporate some kind of Int-based bonuses. I guess anything can be made to fit a certain flavor, plus nobody is demanding a logical explanation regarding homebrew stuff.

MrSin wrote:

The pathfinder cleric is pretty poor when it comes to class features, not sure what would be worth trading out. I actually loved the cloistered cleric variant from 3.5, but the cloistered cleric archetype in pathfinder is awful(Diminished spell casting and you lose a domain, and you lose profiencies. Its not even a caster or skill monkey!).

Your changes look like you just traded channeling to get 2 more skill points per level and breadth of knowledge and scribe scroll. Sounds a little overpowered when you look at it like that doesn't it? I wouldn't use other archetypes as a base for things if your doing homebrew, your allowed to go out of your way to try new things in a homegame if your DM allows.

It would help if I paid attention to what I actually wrote, because you're right in the way it sounded. By "Weapon/armor proficiencies are unchanged", I meant that it was proficient with light armor, no shields, and with the same 5 weapons; unchanged from the PF Cloistered Cleric. I just wrote it wrong, especially compared to the rest of the description. Sorry for the confusion.

I agree about the lack of things for a PF Cleric to replace for archetypes. I've noticed that basically all Cleric archetypes drop a domain, or at least the 1st- or 8th-level domain power (despite not all domains having an 8th-level power, leaving the question of what would happen if a Cleric with, say, the Water and Animal domains took one of those archetypes). Is it really the only decent thing to replace, though, besides some channeling power?

Byrdology wrote:
What is SAN?

I'm not too sure myself, but I'm guessing it's a Sanity score? Given that Joanna mentioned Lovecraft playing a part in the campaign and all.

darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Have you looked at the 3rd party Priest? You can find it on pfsrd

I've looked at it and honestly? I don't like it. Yes, it fits the "studious divine caster" image I'm going for (especially with the free Knowledge domain), but I honestly don't like the design. It seems like an obvious port from 3.5e, not even changing the number of spell slots to match that of the standard PF Cleric. The spontaneous domain spell casting, extra domain spell slot, and d8 channeling die also seem like a "different but not really" approach to me, with little care for balance.

This is why I'm hesitant to use 3rd party material, despite asking for advice on house-ruling an existing archetype. I guess there's no shame in editing out what I don't like. Thanks for the suggestion!

I've loved the Cloistered Cleric since its introduction in 3.5e, but I just don't most of what the PF version offers. I'm not looking to get into a huge debate here about its viability here, because that's not the reason of this post. I'm posting this because I'm planning on playing a CC in an upcoming campaign, and the GM has basically given me full reign to tailor it to my liking as long as there's some semblance of balance. However, I'm running a bit dry on some features that could be included here, so I'm looking for suggestion.

I'm planning on giving this CC the following, despite some of it being a bit counter-intuitive; I'll explain my reasons why I'm choosing certain features as I list them.

  • 4+Int skill points/level (I'm not bumping it to 6+Int because I haven't noticed another archetype going beyond a ±2 skill point difference per level)
  • Weapon/armor proficiencies are unchanged (I might look to include proficiency with the deity's favored weapon, but that seems to go against the noncombatant flavor here)
  • BAB and HD are unchanged (no archetype as of yet has changed these things compared to the base class, so I'm not changing it either)
  • Channeling increasing by 1d6 starting at 4th level and every 3 thereafter (I'm not big on channeling and I see no reason why the CC can't suffer this loss)
  • Same class skills and Breadth of Knowledge (always been one of my favorite class features)
  • Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat
  • Domains and spellcasting abilities exactly the same as the base Cleric (if it's gonna be worse at combat, this is the least I can do; I might be willing to drop one domain if necessary)

New or modified class features pose a problem here, as I can't think of what might mesh with the class features that are given up. It may also be because I have a number of ideas already and can't decide on what to use.

Mainly, I want a bit of Int dependency here. Yes, I know that makes the class even more MAD, but we've already got less channeling power here, so it's lightening the necessity for Cha to an extent. That, and the Int bonus wouldn't be applied towards anything major.

I like the idea of adding Int bonus when fighting defensively, casting defensively, using total defense, or Combat Expertise, but that suggests the CC should actually be on the front lines. Int to initiative would be nice, and not necessarily OP because of less Int investment.

I also considered something similar to the Archivist Bard's Naturalist ability, granting certain bonuses once a specific enemy type is identified. Something like X insight bonus to AC, attack rolls, and saving throws increasing every X levels, which uses a move action to grant to all allies within 30 feet and lasts as long as the CC's Int bonus. Borrowing a bit from the Ranger's bond with his companions for that idea. Does it make sense for this to replace anything I've listed?

I'm not opposed to keeping Verbal Instruction, though it is a bit lacking. Would it be OP to remove the restriction on the number of allies it can affect as long as they're within 30 feet, and giving it the benefits of a normal Aid Another check? Maybe the bonus could even increase every X levels? I like the idea of increasing allies' skill checks, but could it be implemented better?

And then I thought, since the archetype gets Scribe Scroll for free, why not give it some scroll-related tricks? Maybe like not provoking AoOs for taking out a scroll, Quick Draw for scrolls, or maybe applying metamagic feats to scroll spells as a full-round action 3+Int (or just Int) times/day? Again, that might be too much to replace proficiency with medium armor, shields, and most weapon proficiencies.

As you can probably see, it's really more a matter of balance than a lack of ideas. I obviously can't include all of these features at the expense of less combat/channeling ability, so I welcome opinions from someone more experienced in building balanced archetypes than I am. Or opinions from anybody, for that matter. Thanks!

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I was looking over the mad dog barbarian introduced in Animal Archive (an awesome archetype concept, in my opinion), but I as a little unclear on what exactly this meant with regards to rage powers.

Rage (Ex): A mad dog gains this ability at 4th level, except that her effective barbarian level for the ability is equal to her barbarian level – 3.

I took it to mean that the Barbarian just gets 6 fewer rounds of rage overall, but does this apply to when the Barbarian qualifies for rage powers? The only thing that would make me think it doesn't affect prerequisite levels is that one of the new rage powers for it says you must be an 8th level barbarian to qualify—and even that's a little unclear!

Obviously you can't take rage powers before you get rage, but that would seem a little disappointing that you'd have to push back qualifying for certain rage powers. I guess it is worth it, though, as unlike rangers you can get *any* animal for a companion. Oh, the possibilities.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Shield is a martial weapon. It can be enchanted as one.

An Adamantine Shield costs an additional 3000gp.


Nicos wrote:
I do not undestand. if you have that much money you are in the hihger levels, why you do not have shield master so you do not need to enchant the shield as a weapon?

I think he's going for what I mentioned in the intro of my post; a character who fights using a shield, but doesn't want TWF or other prereqs. That way you wouldn't need at least 15 dex.

Say I have a character who wields a shield as their only weapon. Hypothetically, I’ll say it’s for a spellcaster who wants to keep one hand free all the time and still have a shield (I do know there are ways around that, but that’s not what I’m asking). Or maybe I just want a melee fighter who just doesn’t want to meet the dex prereqs for the TWF tree.

So my question is, you can enchant a shield as a weapon and armor separately, correct? As in, +X to attack and damage rolls and +X to armor? And would this work for both regular shields like it does shield spikes?

I realize the Shield Master feat is supposed to add the shield bonus to attack and damage rolls too, so I don’t want to assume it’s made less useful (aside from removing TWF penalties) just because you can already put a weapon bonus on your shield to improve shield bashes.

I’m a little worried that I might be missing something obvious here, so please let me know if the text I’ve bolded in the quote below is the straight answer I really want:

An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

In other words, is it pretty much saying “you can place weapon enhancements on your shield”?