I wouldn't say unfounded. I've seen exactly one non dervish magus, I tried it myself one campaign and really I felt kinda busted. I had high defenses and easily the most lethal in the party, went first a lot, my only bad save was my best save, my stealth was better than the rogue. I heard higher up that mathematically Dex to damage is proven not busted, but in play it was pretty much an uber stat for me, did not vie for extra damage even though I actively avoided shocking grasp. (Also I have not seen where its "mathmatically proven" I guess the fact that you have less damage output because of power attack but really you only need to do enough damage not all the damage and 'not all the damage' is a small price to pay to have your cake and eat it too.
That said I'm not against Dex to damage, especially when at the end of a one or two feat chain, but I only allowed that in my games after also adding attractive STR options
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I mean... "we made a finesse feat that works with everything except finesse weapons" is a pretty ridiculous mistake. A lot of people must have green lighted Slashing Grace before it went to the printers. Did nobody seriously stop and say "hey wait, you do realize this feat doesn't work with anything we expect the Swashbuckler to use, right?".
For the most part I like what the devs have done. Yet I'm seeing the happen way too often as of late. I know they are human. I know they like what they do and respect the effort they put into their work. Yet to me at least it feels like they just ignore what done of the fanbase are asking for. At this point they should know better as well. A well designed feat with a proper mix if fluff and crunch should be very easy for them to develop test and print. I think it's a very conservative approach to design which is both a good and bad thing. As it goes I have very little hope for PF Unchained. I'm in no mood to get feats that have great fluff. Yet nothing in terms of crunch. And more feat taxes.
I haven't mentioned this because I'm sure it will be unpopular but how would you get the momentum to deal Dex to damage with a light weapon? I mean with dervish dance I presumed you got Dex to damage using momentum from spinning during you, er, dance. With one handed slashing weapons I guess they can be long enough to pick up momentum. Not saying there's no way to flavor Dex to damage into light weapons but don't take it out on this feat.
I haven't mentioned this because I'm sure it will be unpopular but how would you get the momentum to deal Dex to damage with a light weapon? I mean with dervish dance I presumed you got Dex to damage using momentum from spinning during you, er, dance. With one handed slashing weapons I guess they can be long enough to pick up momentum. Not saying there's no way to flavor Dex to damage into light weapons but don't take it out on this feat.
I don't see it as angular momentum as you describe it (that really still feels like strength to me.) I see it as the ability to get a twist (either of your body or the weapon) as it creates the wound. Basically dealing a less clean cut and damaging more tissues, causing more blood loss. This comes at the expense of being able to cut as deeply which is why no two-handed / 1.5x damage. Though I still think it would be a cool option for the ECB, for that exact reason.
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ignore the fact that daggers are typical off-hand weapons of daring-do everywhere, Why should people with larger imaginations be limited to what you think is "Iconic"?Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class.
I'm not stating my own opinion (I've had a generic Dex-to-damage Feat in my games for literally years), I'm noting an easy explanation for Paizo leaving it out that doesn't involve some sort of conspiracy theory. And that explanation isn't them intentionally restricting people, it's an oversight.
I'm also gonna note that, despite having the aforementioned homebrew Feat for years...I've only ever seen it taken on rapiers. Which is one reason I'm not more upset about all this since Fencing Grace got mentioned...
I'm encouraged that Paizo seem to take the player base wishes into account (crossbows are much more viable with the ACG, for example), but I don't think we've quite reached the goal line on making dexterity fighting a viable and attractive option. I'm happy to put Slashing/Fencing Grace into play, but I'll still be using the houserule options my groups have made for dexterity - the Grace feats does not cover all the options I hoped to see made possible.
I wouldn't say unfounded. I've seen exactly one non dervish magus, I tried it myself one campaign and really I felt kinda busted. I had high defenses and easily the most lethal in the party, went first a lot, my only bad save was my best save, my stealth was better than the rogue. I heard higher up that mathematically Dex to damage is proven not busted, but in play it was pretty much an uber stat for me, did not vie for extra damage even though I actively avoided shocking grasp. (Also I have not seen where its "mathmatically proven" I guess the fact that you have less damage output because of power attack but really you only need to do enough damage not all the damage and 'not all the damage' is a small price to pay to have your cake and eat it too.
That said I'm not against Dex to damage, especially when at the end of a one or two feat chain, but I only allowed that in my games after also adding attractive STR options
You don't really make much of a case when you're comparing your statistics to a rogue, of all classes. As is mathematically shown on the boards here, rogues don't really have much power to them in the first place, and almost all of their class features can be replicated with other published classes. Even if it were a ninja, your case would be disproven simply because a Ninja is of a fairly relative (though significantly better) power level.
You don't even need Power Attack as a DD Magus, as Piranha Strike will serve you a lot better, making you no longer need 13 Strength (meaning you can pump your other important stats to a higher level).
Needless to say, it seems you are against it, especially when you are voicing your concern over how "busted" you felt when playing with Dexterity to Attack and Damage. Additionally, Strength builds already have plenty of attractive benefits, given size increases, Rage (both class feature and spell), plus multiple other effects which scale off of it, and several of them don't really need to rely on Dexterity for defenses too much because of MDB from the armor they use, and any increases they need, a Stat Belt can cover.
I wouldn't say unfounded. I've seen exactly one non dervish magus, I tried it myself one campaign and really I felt kinda busted. I had high defenses and easily the most lethal in the party, went first a lot, my only bad save was my best save, my stealth was better than the rogue. I heard higher up that mathematically Dex to damage is proven not busted, but in play it was pretty much an uber stat for me, did not vie for extra damage even though I actively avoided shocking grasp. (Also I have not seen where its "mathmatically proven" I guess the fact that you have less damage output because of power attack but really you only need to do enough damage not all the damage and 'not all the damage' is a small price to pay to have your cake and eat it too.
That said I'm not against Dex to damage, especially when at the end of a one or two feat chain, but I only allowed that in my games after also adding attractive STR options
You don't really make much of a case when you're comparing your statistics to a rogue, of all classes. As is mathematically shown on the boards here, rogues don't really have much power to them in the first place, and almost all of their class features can be replicated with other published classes. Even if it were a ninja, your case would be disproven simply because a Ninja is of a fairly relative (though significantly better) power level.
You don't even need Power Attack as a DD Magus, as Piranha Strike will serve you a lot better, making you no longer need 13 Strength (meaning you can pump your other important stats to a higher level).
Needless to say, it seems you are against it, especially when you are voicing your concern over how "busted" you felt when playing with Dexterity to Attack and Damage. Additionally, Strength builds already have plenty of attractive benefits, given size increases, Rage (both class feature and spell), plus multiple other effects which scale off of it, and several of them don't really need to rely...
Minor Nitpick, Piranha Strike only functions with 'light' weapons, not finesseable weapons. Even if you use a rapier, you still need Power Attack for the damage bonus feat.
[Edit] Ninja'd when I left the page open.
Being the strongest one handed weapon build is like being the strongest kindergartner.
Despite a lot of nit pickiness, i have to say that not working with is a very legitimate complaint with this feat.
The Magus is kind of a special case too; the class's mechanics are uniquely suited towards dueling in a way no one else's is. Even then you're two feats behind a strength based Magus.
STR is far more easy to pump, there are an infinite number of ways to glean extra damage from it, and you gain a higher chance to hit from it all. There is literally no possible way that adding a basic dex-to-damage generic feat would be at all gamebreaking. There are already several ways to accomplish it, but each of them is masked behind tight restrictions and requirements, or irrational use limitations.Just to bring up one of my favorite examples, pretty much every size-increasing spell comes with a strength buff as well, and martials love size increases. (More reach + higher damage dice). Most of the size-increasing effects not only don't buff dexterity, they usually reduce it. Barring 3PP, the only way to increase your size category and get a dex boost is the Elemental Body III/IV spell, which as level 6/7 personal-range spell isn't all that accessible to martials.
But if you don't need strength to hit and do damage then you can easily make yourself an unhittable tiny creature killing medium creatures shins.
But if you don't need strength to hit and do damage then you can easily make yourself an unhittable tiny creature killing medium creatures shins.STR is far more easy to pump, there are an infinite number of ways to glean extra damage from it, and you gain a higher chance to hit from it all. There is literally no possible way that adding a basic dex-to-damage generic feat would be at all gamebreaking. There are already several ways to accomplish it, but each of them is masked behind tight restrictions and requirements, or irrational use limitations.Just to bring up one of my favorite examples, pretty much every size-increasing spell comes with a strength buff as well, and martials love size increases. (More reach + higher damage dice). Most of the size-increasing effects not only don't buff dexterity, they usually reduce it. Barring 3PP, the only way to increase your size category and get a dex boost is the Elemental Body III/IV spell, which as level 6/7 personal-range spell isn't all that accessible to martials.
You can already do that.
STR is still important, carrying capacity matters, you can't put armor in a handy haversack.
But if you don't need strength to hit and do damage then you can easily make yourself an unhittable tiny creature killing medium creatures shins.STR is far more easy to pump, there are an infinite number of ways to glean extra damage from it, and you gain a higher chance to hit from it all. There is literally no possible way that adding a basic dex-to-damage generic feat would be at all gamebreaking. There are already several ways to accomplish it, but each of them is masked behind tight restrictions and requirements, or irrational use limitations.Just to bring up one of my favorite examples, pretty much every size-increasing spell comes with a strength buff as well, and martials love size increases. (More reach + higher damage dice). Most of the size-increasing effects not only don't buff dexterity, they usually reduce it. Barring 3PP, the only way to increase your size category and get a dex boost is the Elemental Body III/IV spell, which as level 6/7 personal-range spell isn't all that accessible to martials.
CMD tanks down like crazy though. Lowering size is a decrease in damage too.
By the way, due to how horribly Slashing Grace is written, are you ready for "Dervish Dancing" Falcata Magi?
CMD tanks down like crazy though. Lowering size is a decrease in damage too.But if you don't need strength to hit and do damage then you can easily make yourself an unhittable tiny creature killing medium creatures shins.STR is far more easy to pump, there are an infinite number of ways to glean extra damage from it, and you gain a higher chance to hit from it all. There is literally no possible way that adding a basic dex-to-damage generic feat would be at all gamebreaking. There are already several ways to accomplish it, but each of them is masked behind tight restrictions and requirements, or irrational use limitations.Just to bring up one of my favorite examples, pretty much every size-increasing spell comes with a strength buff as well, and martials love size increases. (More reach + higher damage dice). Most of the size-increasing effects not only don't buff dexterity, they usually reduce it. Barring 3PP, the only way to increase your size category and get a dex boost is the Elemental Body III/IV spell, which as level 6/7 personal-range spell isn't all that accessible to martials.
Wait is there a size penalty to damage?
Wait is there a size penalty to damage?CMD tanks down like crazy though. Lowering size is a decrease in damage too.But if you don't need strength to hit and do damage then you can easily make yourself an unhittable tiny creature killing medium creatures shins.STR is far more easy to pump, there are an infinite number of ways to glean extra damage from it, and you gain a higher chance to hit from it all. There is literally no possible way that adding a basic dex-to-damage generic feat would be at all gamebreaking. There are already several ways to accomplish it, but each of them is masked behind tight restrictions and requirements, or irrational use limitations.Just to bring up one of my favorite examples, pretty much every size-increasing spell comes with a strength buff as well, and martials love size increases. (More reach + higher damage dice). Most of the size-increasing effects not only don't buff dexterity, they usually reduce it. Barring 3PP, the only way to increase your size category and get a dex boost is the Elemental Body III/IV spell, which as level 6/7 personal-range spell isn't all that accessible to martials.
Weapon damage dice decreases.
The dice on your weapon decreases, yeah. I think it's less important than being vulnerable to anything with a maneuver feat and no longer threatening squares if you drop down to Tiny, though.
Needless to say, it seems you are against it, especially when you are voicing your concern over how "busted" you felt when playing with Dexterity to Attack and Damage. Additionally, Strength builds already have plenty of attractive benefits, given size increases, Rage (both class feature and spell), plus multiple other effects which scale off of it, and several of them don't really need to rely...
STR is way more attractive in my games due to homebrew and third party products.
As to how how easier it is to benefit STR in game, I'm the type of player that builds as if I'm assumed to have no gear past MW or buffs cast on me that don't come from myself. Gear is irrelevant because you're either going to get what you want or be crippled by not gaining benefits for your build, Buffs are Icing on the cake but I don't want to assume I get those whenever I want. As a dex build I was very self reliant leaving the casters to solve problems without having to enlarge or haste me. In my games I give out things that just let str do way more without need outside help whether its items or other effects.
By the way, due to how horribly Slashing Grace is written, are you ready for "Dervish Dancing" Falcata Magi?
The crit on that thing can go up to 17-20x4 with pool expenditure... and a Kensai can qualify for Slashing Grace at level 1. That is beyond absurd.
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By the way, due to how horribly Slashing Grace is written, are you ready for "Dervish Dancing" Falcata Magi?The crit on that thing can go up to 17-20x4 with pool expenditure... and a Kensai can qualify for Slashing Grace at level 1. That is beyond absurd.
Hooray for balance!
Oh hey slashing grace is great for dagger rogue! They need weapon focus anyways and the dex to damage appears to even apply on range attacks.
Of course you could also use fencing grace with dagger rogues too.
NOTE: Probably more useful on duel dagger/short-sword slayer.
EDIT: In case anyone forgot daggers are either piercing or slashing so either feat works. Slashing grace is limited to one handed weapon, but does not say you have to be wielding only one weapon to use the feat.
Really the only weapon that seems to get shafted is the rapier.
Oh hey slashing grace is great for dagger rogue! They need weapon focus anyways and the dex to damage appears to even apply on range attacks.
Of course you could also use fencing grace with dagger rogues too.
NOTE: Probably more useful on duel dagger/short-sword slayer.
EDIT: In case anyone forgot daggers are either piercing or slashing so either feat works. Slashing grace is limited to one handed weapon, but does not say you have to be wielding only one weapon to use the feat.Really the only weapon that seems to get shafted is the rapier.
Daggers dont work with either of the feats as they lack any mention of light weapons.
To clarify, light and one handed weapons are different categories of weapons.
Oh hey slashing grace is great for dagger rogue! They need weapon focus anyways and the dex to damage appears to even apply on range attacks.
Of course you could also use fencing grace with dagger rogues too.
NOTE: Probably more useful on duel dagger/short-sword slayer.
EDIT: In case anyone forgot daggers are either piercing or slashing so either feat works. Slashing grace is limited to one handed weapon, but does not say you have to be wielding only one weapon to use the feat.Really the only weapon that seems to get shafted is the rapier.
Daggers dont work with either of the feats as they lack any mention of light weapons.
To clarify, light and one handed weapons are different categories of weapons.
The feat calls for one-handed slashing weapons not one-handed melee weapons.
one-handed slashing weapons is not a category.
I read it as requiring a slashing weapon that is used in one hand, not requiring a particular section on the weapons chart.
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2) The feat allows weapons to benefit from their dexterity score to damage, but not on attack rolls. So except for the Aldori Dueling Sword and the Whip (to my knowledge) there are no other one-handed finesseable weapons that also deal slashing damage. This means that the only class that truly benefits from this feat is the Swashbuckler, because they have the ability to apply their dexterity score to more weapons than the traditional weapon finesse feat.
This is super-niche, but the Bladed Scarf is finessable and a Kapenia Dancer (Magus archetype) gets to treat it as a 1-Handed Weapon. So hooray for them!
Doesn't address the main problem, I know, but thought I'd throw that out there.
Oh hey slashing grace is great for dagger rogue! They need weapon focus anyways and the dex to damage appears to even apply on range attacks.
Of course you could also use fencing grace with dagger rogues too.
NOTE: Probably more useful on duel dagger/short-sword slayer.
EDIT: In case anyone forgot daggers are either piercing or slashing so either feat works. Slashing grace is limited to one handed weapon, but does not say you have to be wielding only one weapon to use the feat.Really the only weapon that seems to get shafted is the rapier.
Daggers dont work with either of the feats as they lack any mention of light weapons.
To clarify, light and one handed weapons are different categories of weapons.
The feat calls for one-handed slashing weapons not one-handed melee weapons.
one-handed slashing weapons is not a category.
I read it as requiring a slashing weapon that is used in one hand, not requiring a particular section on the weapons chart.
Im fairly sure a generous reading of the text wont fly in PFS
Edit: Basically the feat lacks the keywords to enable that function.
Im fairly sure a generous reading of the text wont fly in PFSOh hey slashing grace is great for dagger rogue! They need weapon focus anyways and the dex to damage appears to even apply on range attacks.
Of course you could also use fencing grace with dagger rogues too.
NOTE: Probably more useful on duel dagger/short-sword slayer.
EDIT: In case anyone forgot daggers are either piercing or slashing so either feat works. Slashing grace is limited to one handed weapon, but does not say you have to be wielding only one weapon to use the feat.Really the only weapon that seems to get shafted is the rapier.
Daggers dont work with either of the feats as they lack any mention of light weapons.
To clarify, light and one handed weapons are different categories of weapons.
The feat calls for one-handed slashing weapons not one-handed melee weapons.
one-handed slashing weapons is not a category.
I read it as requiring a slashing weapon that is used in one hand, not requiring a particular section on the weapons chart.
Shame on them then. Going by pure RAW, one-handed slashing weapons is not a weapon category, it has to be descriptive.
RAI why could you only add dex to damage to weapons that are not finesse-able?
The Swashbuckler's weapon finesse includes more weapons.
Im fairly sure a generous reading of the text wont fly in PFSOh hey slashing grace is great for dagger rogue! They need weapon focus anyways and the dex to damage appears to even apply on range attacks.
Of course you could also use fencing grace with dagger rogues too.
NOTE: Probably more useful on duel dagger/short-sword slayer.
EDIT: In case anyone forgot daggers are either piercing or slashing so either feat works. Slashing grace is limited to one handed weapon, but does not say you have to be wielding only one weapon to use the feat.Really the only weapon that seems to get shafted is the rapier.
Daggers dont work with either of the feats as they lack any mention of light weapons.
To clarify, light and one handed weapons are different categories of weapons.
The feat calls for one-handed slashing weapons not one-handed melee weapons.
one-handed slashing weapons is not a category.
I read it as requiring a slashing weapon that is used in one hand, not requiring a particular section on the weapons chart.
Shame on them then. Going by pure RAW, one-handed slashing weapons is not a weapon category, it has to be descriptive.
RAI why could you only add dex to damage to weapons that are not finesse-able?
Because martials can't have nice things, so it's safer to assume that the least favorable reading of a martial power is the intended one
I'm only somewhat joking.
2) The feat allows weapons to benefit from their dexterity score to damage, but not on attack rolls. So except for the Aldori Dueling Sword and the Whip (to my knowledge) there are no other one-handed finesseable weapons that also deal slashing damage. This means that the only class that truly benefits from this feat is the Swashbuckler, because they have the ability to apply their dexterity score to more weapons than the traditional weapon finesse feat.This is super-niche, but the Bladed Scarf is finessable and a Kapenia Dancer (Magus archetype) gets to treat it as a 1-Handed Weapon. So hooray for them!
Doesn't address the main problem, I know, but thought I'd throw that out there.
Okay can we just stop and consider how yet another martial ability has turned out to work best for another friggin spellcaster
The Swashbuckler's weapon finesse includes more weapons.
But Duelist does not and is explicit-ally mentioned in the feat. RAI, it doesn't make sense for the feat not to work for duelist.
Not to mention, assuming that one-handed slashing weapons means one-handed melee weapon's category that are slashing is an application of RAI not RAW.
Not really. One-handed is a category. One-handed Slashing is a subset of One-handed.
This Feat is a hot frigging mess. Not only does it not work with Light weapons, it only works with Slashing weapons, leaving anyone who uses Bludgeoning or Piercing out in the cold.
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Not really. One-handed is a category. One-handed Slashing is a subset of One-handed.
This Feat is a hot frigging mess. Not only does it not work with Light weapons, it only works with Slashing weapons, leaving anyone who uses Bludgeoning or Piercing out in the cold.
One-handed is not a category. One-handed Melee Weapons is a category.
One-Handed Slashing weapons doesn't include the word melee. Since you can have ranged slashing weapons you cannot assume Slashing = melee.
EDIT: Example: "Chakram 1 gp 1d6 1d8 ×2 30 ft. 1 lb. S"
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I wonder if they'll fix the iconic with the new feat or leave her without it. Her and harsk together could create a zero point energy vacuum
Mistakes happens sometimes, the sky will not fall if they fix it.
Excuse me?
So you're saying that the lack of specific terming insinuates that its not describing one handed melee weapons but that you need one hand to wield them and so daggers qualify?
I don't think that's the case but if Paizo wanted to its easy to errata it that way without gaining or losing too much page count and I'm don't exactly mind that interpretation.
But from what I heard the feat originally was not intended to deal with damage at all and the dex to damage was intended to beef up the feat. So this thread is less about this feat and more about dex to damage as a whole. I don't think the feat is bad but if you want dex to damage you won't appreciate getting it on almost everything instead of everything.
?Mistakes happens sometimes, the sky will not fall if they fix it.Excuse me?
Look at his name nicos :)
So you're saying that the lack of specific terming insinuates that its not describing one handed melee weapons but that you need one hand to wield them and so daggers qualify?
I don't think that's the case but if Paizo wanted to its easy to errata it that way without gaining or losing too much page count and I'm don't exactly mind that interpretation.
But from what I heard the feat originally was not intended to deal with damage at all and the dex to damage was intended to beef up the feat. So this thread is less about this feat and more about dex to damage as a whole. I don't think the feat is bad but if you want dex to damage you won't appreciate getting it on almost everything instead of everything.
Sine One-handed slashing weapon is not a weapon category, so it seems to me that the term is descriptive of the weapon not referencing weapon categories.
I view the feat as requiring a slashing weapon that you wield in one hand.
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and all bludgeoning weapons; because nunchucks are all about strength, AMIRIGHT?Really the only weapon that seems to get shafted is the rapier.
Okay can we just stop and consider how yet another martial ability has turned out to work best for another friggin spellcaster
This is super-niche, but the Bladed Scarf is finessable and a Kapenia Dancer (Magus archetype) gets to treat it as a 1-Handed Weapon. So hooray for them!Doesn't address the main problem, I know, but thought I'd throw that out there.
Bladed scarves are two handed weapons, so they do not qualify for the slashing grace feat.
PH unbalanced incorrectly quoted the rules for Kapenia dancers. They do not treat bladed scarves as one handed weapons, they merely wield them as one handed weapons.
Uh... yeah, they do.
"Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."
Besides, the main thing that frustrates me is how friggin good the Falcata Kensai is going to be. The Magus was the best Dervish Dancer and will now be the best Slashing Grace user.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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By the way, due to how horribly Slashing Grace is written, are you ready for "Dervish Dancing" Falcata Magi?The crit on that thing can go up to 17-20x4 with pool expenditure... and a Kensai can qualify for Slashing Grace at level 1. That is beyond absurd.
Given that I was mad there was no Rolondero love in Inner Sea Combat, and I expect that Taldan school of fighting will see no love in ACG Origins, I'm glad at the idea of a slashing grace Falcata
Uh... yeah, they do.
"Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."
Besides, the main thing that frustrates me is how friggin good the Falcata Kensai is going to be. The Magus was the best Dervish Dancer and will now be the best Slashing Grace user.
Was there a change to the feat that someone posted after the original feat(s) listed in the original post? If not, doesn't the feat only add dex to damage, not allow the use of weapon finesse with weapons that aren't already able to be used as such? If so that makes a Falcata terrible for the feat as you now counter-intuitively need strength to hit an dexterity for damage, which makes MAD worse and begs the question of why you bothered.