You will recall that most of my issues in my OP outline the mechanical and thematic issues with the feat. Only a small part of it is me expressing how I feel like a promise was broken. That had nothing to do with the feat that was delivered, and everything to do with the post Jason did explaining why the feat turned out that way. Because, when I read his post, it felt to me like they only included the Dex to Damage as an afterthought, as if though they only accidentally upheld their promise.
I do, however, feel that Paizo should have clarified when people kept reporting over and over in numerous threads across several different sub-forums about how happy people were that we would finally get a feat for dex-to-damage for more weapons than just the scimitar.
Lots of people talked about finally being able to play a dexterous dagger wielder that didn't only come into fruition at +6th level, or being able to play that nimble Rapier wielder, or finally getting to play that Aldori Swordlord they've wanted to do, or being that Badass with a Sword Cane etc.
Lots of different people expressed how happy they were about getting a better Dex to Damage option, and the Design team remained silent on this. It should have been nipped in the bud before everyone got their hopes up so high and then we were delivered a feat that wasn't going to work like they wanted.
Hell, when they realized the issue with Slashing Grace, they should have probably made a thread letting people know about it a head of time.
It's not like the Dex to Damage crowd is a small one on the forums either. It's not like the 'Non-Evil Undead' crowd or any of the other niche crowds; the Dex to Damage crowd has a substantial following and most of use were really psyched up about the potential for a Dex to Damage option in the core line of books.
I can pretty much agree with this. This is their game too (not to mention their job), and they seem to take a lot of pride in their work... I am sure they are not intentionally screwing anything up... despite what people might think on occasion.
-1
I don't think they are screwing things up on purpose though, I just think they have crappy ass communication between teams and they ought to do something about it. This feat is a symptom.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I didn't read the whole thread (too big) so i apologize if my questions have been answered.
(I don't have the ACG yet so my assumptions might be wrong.)
1) A swashbuckler only gets DEX to attack rolls (weapon finesse) just with light and one handed piercing weapons, correct?
2) A swashbuckler has no class abilities to add DEX to damage, correct?
3) In order for a swashbuckler to get the DEX to attack rolls with an one handed slashing weapon* you need to get the slashing grace feat, correct?
4) A swashbuckler using an one handed slashing weapon with the slashing grace feat gets DEX to damage, correct?
5) A swashbuckler using any light weapon has no way to add DEX to damage, correct?
6) A swashbuckler using any one handed piering weapon** has no way to add DEX to damage, correct?
7) A swashbuckler using any finessable weapon** has no way to add DEX to damage, correct?
*except the scimitar, which has the dervish dancer feat
**except the rapier, which will have the fencing grace feat
PS. the above no DEX to damage questions are obviously questions that regard feats, and class abilities, i am aware that the agile weapon property exists
Near as I can tell, all of your statements are correct.
Yep, correct.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like how we get a new 250 page book and after one feat we don't like its RAGE.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like how we get a new 250 page book and after one feat we don't like its RAGE.
And I like how that is always the excuse some people use for problems which crop up with new material.
Ok i also agree that the feat is kinda weird in the way it works and it really should have swashbuckler lvl 1 in it's prerequisites.
I am more concerned that it requires weapon focus, which means that unless you are human you have to wait until lvl 3.
From Golarion's fluff PoV i think that we are quite good, we (will) have working rapier weilding dex-fighters/fencers, we have working longsword weilding dex-fighters/fencers, we have working aldori duelists, we even working red mantis assasins.
Sure we have some oddities like having DEX based bastardsword weilders but not DEX based knife weilders. The only thing i feel that it's missing is a way for DEX basing an elven curved blade weilder.
Sure the feat in ACG is kinda clucky and surely it could be better written but i don't think that the feat is as bad as other things we have seen in the past (prone shooter, antagonize, VoP monk etc.).
I know that this isn't a good solution but in my home games i am going to change the fencing grace in order to apply to all finesse-able weapons.
Anyway i can understand the frustations of people, especially since they were promised a generic dex to damage feat, if it's a deal breaker for you then don't buy/return the book, i (personally) am glad we got that, most of the concepts i wanted to be able, mechanically, are covered.
I guess there was one relevant thing about what the developers told us during the playtest - The point of making this a Feat and not a Swashbuckler class feature was to open it up to all classes. The way the feat functions means it only works for Swashbucklers and Swashbuckler-hybrid archetypes.
With the Bolt Ace archetype, Dex to Damage is in the game for ranged weapons in firearm-free games. There's no longer any balance argument for denying it to Light melee.
Also I'd like to vent that Longswords and Bastard Swords should have been "S or P" from the start. Someone, somewhere at TSR or whatever, apparently saw the long tapered points on those weapons and thought "naw, those are slashing only". And no one ever corrected him.
Just realized something that throws off a lot of my arguments.
Doesn't this only really work with Swashbuckler, aside from Elven curve Blades and Whips, because only Swashbucklers can finesse what it benefits? So it's not really a dex to damage feat it's a Swashbuckler feat that is also a cheat for elven curve blades and whips right?
Doesn't work for Elven Curve Blades, since the weapon must be held in one hand. And yes, only Swashbucklers really benefit with most of the weapons this affects.
Just realized something that throws off a lot of my arguments.
Doesn't this only really work with Swashbuckler, aside from Elven curve Blades and Whips, because only Swashbucklers can finesse what it benefits? So it's not really a dex to damage feat it's a Swashbuckler feat that is also a cheat for elven curve blades and whips right?
Correct. It will be a popular dip for dextrous martials.
|
Eh. I wouldn't expect too many Swashbuckler dips due to Fencing Grace, which works for everyone, and with one of the best finesse weapons.
And even Slashing Grace works for a handful of weapons sans Swashbuckler (Aldori Dueling Sword and Whip leap to mind, though I seem to remember there being a third).
I want to say that they should have gotten it as a class feature instead of a feat if they are the only ones that truly benefit from it but I guess you could potentially make a STR swashbuckler.
But bottom-line is that dex to damage isn't the status quo for main book Pathfinder so I'll use the multiple third party products for dex to damage feats. Too bad for you guys in PFS though.
|
|
I want to say that they should have gotten it as a class feature instead of a feat if they are the only ones that truly benefit from it but I guess you could potentially make a STR swashbuckler.
But bottom-line is that dex to damage isn't the status quo for main book Pathfinder so I'll use the multiple third party products for dex to damage feats. Too bad for you guys in PFS though.
Did you miss the whole Fencing Grace thing? That's in the first post of this thread, pretty certain to be PFS legal in a couple of months, and works for anyone. It's not perfect, but it is official.
I saw it in another thread beforehand but it seems people are pissed that it's limited to rapiers.
I saw it in another thread beforehand but it seems people are pissed that it's limited to rapiers.
We're upset that it's only a band-aid on the problem that is Slashing Grace not being an adequate feat.
That, and it still doesn't solve the problem of many GMs not allowing splat books in their games, only Core Rule Line books.
WHERE IS MY DEX TO DAMAGE FOR SWORD CANES.
I saw it in another thread beforehand but it seems people are pissed that it's limited to rapiers.
We're upset that it's only a band-aid on the problem that is Slashing Grace not being an adequate feat.
That, and it still doesn't solve the problem of many GMs not allowing splat books in their games, only Core Rule Line books.
I thought it was a band aid for rapier compatibility with swashbucklers, because it looks like they only want swashbucklers to get Dex to damage easily, especially with the comment from JJ saying that originally the feat had nothing to do with Dex to damage.
I thought it was a band aid for rapier compatibility with swashbucklers, because it looks like they only want swashbucklers to get Dex to damage easily, especially with the comment fromI saw it in another thread beforehand but it seems people are pissed that it's limited to rapiers.
We're upset that it's only a band-aid on the problem that is Slashing Grace not being an adequate feat.
That, and it still doesn't solve the problem of many GMs not allowing splat books in their games, only Core Rule Line books.
JJJason Bulmahn saying that originally the feat had nothing to do with Dex to damage.
Fixed that for you.
It's a band aid on an inadequate feat. Battle axes shouldn't get dex to damage before a dagger does.
I was talking to a friend about this months ago, and I think the best solution is to just houserule Daggers to allow adding DEX to damage without a feat. It's a simple, it gives a minor buff to small characters and Rogues who appreciate genre conventions, and because of the small damage die, it's unlikely to create much imbalance.
Yeah, one of the biggest comments I see regarding Dex to Damage is the power issue... but as it is we already have four ways of getting it. Chances are if someone is interested in picking up dex to damage they can and will.. and as is they aren't breaking the game.
So I'm not really seeing what extra damage a simple "improved weapon finesse" would do.
And if you're worried about "realism"... well I don't see a battleaxe being more finesseable than a main gauche makes any sense either.
Allowing any one handed slashing weapon now means the Falcata, which is pretty much the highest DPR one handed weapon with a good crit range and higher multiplier than most, is now accessible as a dex to damage builds although the extra feat can be cumbersome. Nothing a trait (heirloom weapon), a spell (Masterwork Transformation), and a more useful feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor) doesn't get around. Or just pay someone to enchant it for you if you can and spare the feat.
Or, you know... Play a Kensai Magus. You get EWP: Falcata and Weapon Focus for free so if you're a Human you can spend your two feats on Weapon Finesse and Slashing Grace and have everything you need at level 1. If you really want that 18-20x2 crit for Shocking Grasps then you can do this with a Rhoka instead.
Because it's not like they can make a martial ability that's best for martial classes...
I would be okay with this feat as is if we get promised a true generic DEX to damage feat in the next Core line book.
Hell, even if we get it in Pathfinder Unchained I will be okay with it.
Just noticed that the Greater air blessing grants Flight for one minute an unlimited number of times per day. A solo Warpriest can touch themselves as a standard action once every ten rounds to keep up a flight effect on themselves.
Read the blessing class feature. You get a number of daily uses of blessings equal to 3 + half your warpriest level. There is nothing "unlimited" about that.
Allowing any one handed slashing weapon now means the Falcata, which is pretty much the highest DPR one handed weapon with a good crit range and higher multiplier than most, is now accessible as a dex to damage builds although the extra feat can be cumbersome. Nothing a trait (heirloom weapon), a spell (Masterwork Transformation), and a more useful feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor) doesn't get around. Or just pay someone to enchant it for you if you can and spare the feat.Or, you know... Play a Kensai Magus. You get EWP: Falcata and Weapon Focus for free so if you're a Human you can spend your two feats on Weapon Finesse and Slashing Grace and have everything you need at level 1. If you really want that 18-20x2 crit for Shocking Grasps then you can do this with a Rhoka instead.
Because it's not like they can make a martial ability that's best for martial classes...
Unless your kensai magus dips swashbuckler he can't use DEX for attack rolls with the falcata.
|
|
The weird think after all this is the only thing we truly wanted was a dervish dance feat that worked for other slashing weapon. Instead we got a unholy mix of weird stuff. No one will pick this instead of dervish dance. Even if you are a swashbuckler the only weapon that would be clearly better is the falcata or katana. (and only the falcata can be conceived as too good)
Eh. It lets you use a shield, which Dervish Dance doesn't. And you forgot the cutlass (which, while not better than a scimitar, is pretty much identical).
I Think it might be related to the fact swashbuckler get a huge damage boost according to their level already, thus they might have been afraid of damage stacking to ridiculous level. Of course we got the worse out of every world.
I'm not sure that's the motivation at all.
I don't understand why unarmed combat get so much support (2 classes, style feats) while dexterous fighter are stuck using a scimitar.
Uh...did you not read the whole Fencing Grace thing? Because they are in fact adding rapier to the list...
oh, I stand corrected, we get scimitar AND rapier, which mechanically were the same anyway.
The rapier is a piercing weapon, and has the finesse quality.
Damage die, crit range, and weapon size are the same but they are far from mechanically identical.|
|
the scimitar with dervish dance have the finesse quality and count as piercing for prerequisite and class feature.
The only real difference is the damage type, which is fairly pointless.
And theme, which is the whole reason for the complaints in the first place (given that scimitars are mechanically awesome).
the scimitar with dervish dance have the finesse quality and count as piercing for prerequisite and class feature.
The only real difference is the damage type, which is fairly pointless.
It does not treat the scimitar as a finessable weapon, it just applies your DEX to attack and damage. While mechanically similar it is different.
And theme, which is the whole reason for the complaints in the first place (given that scimitars are mechanically awesome).which is why in my post I asked for dervish dance working on more weapon. My only point was that adding the rapier was not very daring since it was the same thing anyway. I'll agree I was a bit carried sideway by pointless comment on mechanics.
The very reason I ask other dervish dance possible weapon is only theme, or fluff. SO yes I like to have a rapier now, its cool, it's a start, but its very limited. And why does only the best one-handed get to be used by dexterous people? So in order to be dexterous you need 1d6 damage and a 18-20 threat range? Why do I need to buy another flipping book to get the useful feat?It does not treat the scimitar as a finessable weapon, it just applies your DEX to attack and damage. While mechanically similar it is different.that's semantic more than anything else and bloat this thread with nothing.
If it treated the weapon as finessable, then it would become eligible for certain class abilities and weapon enchantments, it might seem like semantics, but changing the fundamental mechanics of a weapon might not add much to the game now, but in the future should an ability show up that this affects there would be an outrage.
In case anyone is willing to trek through old 3.5 material, DEX to damage existed way back in the olden days. What's even funnier, you ADDED it to STR on damage rolls...
I'm not entirely certain if it's allowed to post stuff from old D&D books, so I'm spoilering it until I know otherwise. If it's not allowed, I'll delete this.
Champion of Corellon Larethian, Races of the Wild,
Elegant Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 2nd level, you become
able to place your attacks where they deal greater damage. You
apply your Dexterity bonus as a bonus on damage rolls (in
addition to any Strength bonus you may have) with any of the
following weapons: longsword, rapier, elven thinblade, elven
lightblade, elven court sword, or scimitar. Targets immune to
sneak attacks or extra damage from critical hits are immune
to your elegant strike.
The prereq's were pretty painful, but at least the payoff was decent:
Entry Requirements(for the PrC)
Race: Elf or half-elf.
Alignment: Any nonevil.
Base Attack Bonus: +7.
Skills: Diplomacy 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks.
Feats: Proficient with all martial weapons and heavy armor,
Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mounted Combat.
Special: Must worship Corellon Larethian.
Special: In addition to the feats above, you must also
take either Weapon Focus (longsword) or Exotic Weapon
Proficiency (elven thinblade or elven courtblade).
Now, I'm not saying this was exactly a universally great option even back then, but there was a basis for it existing, and the game didn't break under the weight of someone doing a smidge more damage. Heck, like I said above, you even added STR to the damage in addition to DEX.
Ok anyone trying to use the Agile enchantment here as a "well heres yoru dex to damage! now be quiet!" argument... really???
Agile just kinda sucks the fun out of everything...so now you need to blow a +1 enchantment just to be able to apply dex... and what happens if you don't find an agile weapon? Or what happens when you are running around and are stuck with your +1 Agile dagger when your buddy has a +2 COurageous flaming axe because you can't another agile weapon?
While this input is nice, it's no very useful.
Pathfinder already had legitimate way of getting dex to damage that worked very well and were balanced (or maybe a bit weak).
What we found was that they were very thematically limited. We got an additional feat in the ACG supposedly to fix that, but it was found to be clunky at best.
and for explanation here were the existing way to get it:
** spoiler omitted **
You forgot the agile enhancement for finesse weapons.
If strength governed your AC through a deflection bonus by pushing attacks away from yourself with a weapon everyone...
Woah, that is a cool idea.
Or even having a feat to turn strength mod to Natural Armor would be great. Yes, touch AC would still suffer but that makes sense to me.
It would also make Barbarians have that much more than Fighters. Worth considering.
If strength governed your AC through a deflection bonus by pushing attacks away from yourself with a weapon everyone...Woah, that is a cool idea.
My homebrew does include a feat that lets you add Str instead of Dex to AC while using a shield... And another one that let's you use Str for ranged attack rolls made with thrown weapons. :)
My homebrew does include a feat that lets you add Str instead of Dex to AC while using a shield... And another one that let's you use Str for ranged attack rolls made with thrown weapons. :)If strength governed your AC through a deflection bonus by pushing attacks away from yourself with a weapon everyone...Woah, that is a cool idea.
Unfortunately I ended up playing a bad ass priest in your game instead of a heroic warrior.