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I've been playing a Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous. I'm armed with Radiance and yet I'm far behind Mr. Enlarging Oread Monk when it comes to damage, unless I'm using one of my limited smites, which puts me just about even.Ummm...how exactly is the Oread Monk enlarging himself?
If I had to guess, a Mythic did it. (Scroll down to "Titan's Rage.)
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" pouncing monstrosity with 11 attacks,"
The eidolon table prevents this from being legal.
It prevents it from gaining 11 NATURAL attacks...quadreped with multiple limb,arms evolutions could pull it off I bet.
I had a 5th level summoner with 6 sword attacks this past weekend.
I find most summoners conveniently forget that their natural weapons become secondary weapons when they use a actual weapon - less to hit (even with multiattack) and a lot less to damage.
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" pouncing monstrosity with 11 attacks,"
The eidolon table prevents this from being legal.
It prevents it from gaining 11 NATURAL attacks...quadreped with multiple limb,arms evolutions could pull it off I bet.
I had a 5th level summoner with 6 sword attacks this past weekend.
I find most summoners conveniently forget that their natural weapons become secondary weapons when they use a actual weapon - less to hit (even with multiattack) and a lot less to damage.
The one mentioned that was brought to my table did have horrendous chances to hit, so he might have been taking the right -6/-10 (or -4/-8 for light weapons) on the attacks. I want to say his first attack ended up at +1, and the others all at -3 to hit...he just wanted a chance to look fearsome I think.
Of course, he didn't get the chance to do a single full attack with his eidolon that scenario...
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I've been playing a Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous. I'm armed with Radiance and yet I'm far behind Mr. Enlarging Oread Monk when it comes to damage, unless I'm using one of my limited smites, which puts me just about even.I understand that they may not be "standard fantasy" and that the touch AC really upsets some but I wouldn't call gunslingers overpowered when compared to, say *intakes breath as he prepares for the avalanche* paladins.
I'm not saying paladins should be banned or nerfed or anything. In fact, I love the extra dimension and challenges that a well played paladin brings to the table.
I'm just saying Paladins are stupid powerful at any level and I always keep that in mind when judging the power of other classes.
Don't worry, Lazar. Mythic rules get out of hand really quick.
The Toragdian warpriest in my Wrath game 1-shot Baphomet with a crit from his +n foebiting warhammer of stupidness.
I was even using the stats of the improved Baphoment.
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Except for the fact that the Summoner is a spellcaster.A 3/4 spontaneous caster with a much more limited spell selection. I've never heard "Summoners are OP because they've got the same sort of spellcasting abilities as a Bard". I'm hearing "Summoners are OP because Eidolon/Summon Monster X lets them do lots of damage".
Summoners are pre-optimized conjuration specialist full casters with access to some of the best spells in the game and before any other class can access them. They've also got big bumps in action economy, not because of the eidolon (though that too) but because they're get summoning spells off faster, as standard actions, and they don't need to plan a round ahead for what they need, they get it right then. They're just disguised (not very well) as 3/4 casters. They have more of their top level spells than any other class, and when they're conserving those spells they get a pet who has better BAB, better STR/DEX bonuses, better Intelligence, better armor bonus, and 4x the skills of an animal companion (not to mention almost infinite customization).
If the Summoner didn't have an Eidolon at all, he'd still be a very competitive and effective class, and easily the best summoning caster in the game. To reiterate: if you removed the eidolon, which is massively superior to the animal companion for the reasons listed above and more, if you took him out of the equation completely, you'd still have an incredibly powerful and effective full caster with 3/4 BAB, light armor proficiency, CHA casting and UMD as a class skill.
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Better yet...one where Druids and Wizards go to the home planes of every creature they've ever summoned to take a brutal bearing in their place.** spoiler omitted **We should have a scenario where the party travels to several eidolons' home planes...
Now this I like.
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The new kid comes into you're party He is using the gunslinger twf pistol build . hows the TWF hand crossbow rogue gonna feel about it.
The new kid joins the party with a Sorcerer, how is the Bard gonna feel about it?
"X is more powerful than Y, therefore we should ban it" leads to all-Monk parties.
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The new kid comes into you're party He is using the gunslinger twf pistol build . hows the TWF hand crossbow rogue gonna feel about it.The new kid joins the party with a Sorcerer, how is the Bard gonna feel about it?
"X is more powerful than Y, therefore we should ban it" leads to all-Monk parties.
An all monk party consisting of a Sohei, Zen Archer, Sensei, and brother of the fist all with Qinggong powers would be effective and a hell of a lot of fun to play in. Just make sure someone didn't dum CHA to be able to use wands, or maybe take a dip of cleric.
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I'm curious to see what various GM's who have different amounts of time of experience. I'm guessing newer GM's might have different opinions than more veteran ones.
Experienced GM here and I would drop Gunslingers. I'm with the crowd who find ranged touch attacks too good for the damage dealt. They make a mockery of most challenges.
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The one mentioned that was brought to my table did have horrendous chances to hit, so he might have been taking the right -6/-10 (or -4/-8 for light weapons) on the attacks. I want to say his first attack ended up at +1, and the others all at -3 to hit...he just wanted a chance to look fearsome I think.
Of course, he didn't get the chance to do a single full attack with his eidolon that scenario...
My experience with a Summoner was pretty much
"Can I pounce?" "No.""Can I pounce?" "No."
"Can I pounce?" "No."
"I attack!" "Miss."
"I attack!" "Miss."
"I attack!" "Miss."
"I attack!" "Hit. Roll damage."
"Four points! Wooo!"
And the Barbarian saunters up..
"I attack." "You hit! 28 damage! He's dead!"
No, if any character class needs to go away, it's the rogue. That's not a PC class, it's actually a punishment inflicted on players who don't know better.
The new kid comes into you're party He is using the gunslinger twf pistol build . hows the TWF hand crossbow rogue gonna feel about it.
He's playing a rogue- OF COURSE he should feel bad. You don't play rogues to feel god about the game, you play them because someone said "Hey, we need someone to maybe remove a trap once per game session. Maybe. If the Wizard is to busy." He should feel sad and useless even if the other characters are all playing monks.
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I'm curious to see what various GM's who have different amounts of time of experience. I'm guessing newer GM's might have different opinions than more veteran ones.Experienced GM here and I would drop Gunslingers. I'm with the crowd who find ranged touch attacks too good for the damage dealt. They make a mockery of most challenges.
But the Wizard making a mockery of most challenges is ok because why?
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But the Wizard making a mockery of most challenges is ok because why?I'm curious to see what various GM's who have different amounts of time of experience. I'm guessing newer GM's might have different opinions than more veteran ones.Experienced GM here and I would drop Gunslingers. I'm with the crowd who find ranged touch attacks too good for the damage dealt. They make a mockery of most challenges.
The wizard shouldn't be able to keep it up, at least not at pfs levels. Some of the things wizards use to do so (persistant spell, dazing spell) could use a good concussion from the nerf bat too.
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But the Wizard making a mockery of most challenges is ok because why?I'm curious to see what various GM's who have different amounts of time of experience. I'm guessing newer GM's might have different opinions than more veteran ones.Experienced GM here and I would drop Gunslingers. I'm with the crowd who find ranged touch attacks too good for the damage dealt. They make a mockery of most challenges.
I haven't seen a wizard make a mockery of many challenges - indeed quite a few games hasn't seen a wizard of the level of the game at all (discounting the people who take one level of wizard (diviner) who I am not counting as a wizard for this comment). at lot more sorcerers than wizards, and with a human sorcerer getting to add extra spells known as class bonus they can have a lot of spells to choose from.
I have seen the various barbarians (at higher levels) who go into rage each round, and at the end of the round exit rage and have some effect (usually a magic item, but sometimes a combination) that prevents fatigue - so they use their super rage power every round, make bad guys disappear in flashes of gore and bone. I don't call that making a mockery of challenges because that is ther thing - and generally flying or invisibility causes them issues.
The ranged touch of gunslingers give them such an advantage over other ranged attackers and for some reason I rarely ever see a misfire for dozens of rounds shot (probably magic items or some special low level power of skipping misfires) - except by certain players who seem to have them and it even stops their full attack in its place at times. I'm told being a gunfighter is expensive perhaps that balances somewhat.
I think reducing or adjudicating magic items differently could change things enough (especially items that let classes avoid their limitations, like multiple meta-magic rods (not on the same spell of course, but having lots), the no fatigue item that barbarians all want that I have no idea what it is)
but this is a "make a class go away" thread so I'd say the ninja - I rarely see them played, but their abilities are just different enough that it can bring a game to a stop to read up on them - especially when the player does something that does not seem right.
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I'm told being a gunfighter is expensive perhaps that balances somewhatIt does not. Your costs rise linearly while your wealth rises exponentially.
Well, in fairness, if you are smart, you just run a wand of abundant ammunition with UMD and a cracked vibrant purple ioun stone.
If you are lucky, you play regular with a friendly caster who mems the spell for you extended.
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You can arm Eidolons with special material weapons.
If I spent the evolution points/feats to gain proficiency. If I was not using the natural attacks all eidolons start with. If I was further diluting wealth.
Even if I were to completely disregard thematic constraints and build solely for optimization, eidolons just are not that effective swinging a two-handed weapon and are downright horrible dual-wielding.
But yes. At 4th level my eidolon could swing a sword, and be only slightly less effective at it than a rogue without flanking.
*It still would have done no good. Special materials don't break gargoyles DR 10/magic and caryatid columns are DR 5/- In both scenario it was the barbarian hitting for 2d6+12, or higher, that killed everything. If you want a class that is overpowered in PFS, that should be your target.
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I'm told being a gunfighter is expensive perhaps that balances somewhatIt does not. Your costs rise linearly while your wealth rises exponentially.Well, in fairness, if you are smart, you just run a wand of abundant ammunition with UMD and a cracked vibrant purple ioun stone.
If you are lucky, you play regular with a friendly caster who mems the spell for you extended.
Actually, I am not convinced it is all that smart. At 15 gp per charge you are still spending money and you are wasting at least a standard action if not a full round attack to save you some money. And that's not even counting the fact you would have to save 2000 gp in ammunition before you broke even with the Ioun Stone.
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But the Wizard making a mockery of most challenges is ok because why?I don't think he said it was okay.
Here's a difference: Not EVERY wizard does this. Sure, dazing persistent black tentacles? There goes the fight. But throwing haste on the party, buffing, damage spells that are frankly, meh will not. So you see some wizards that are breaking the game and some that aren't: it gives wizards a better reputation.
ALL gunslingers can mow things down. The class is very cookie cutter and the resulting gingerbread man just mows through things because targeting touch AC is an automatic hit when armor is supposed to be the majority of your armorclass.
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I personally just ask the players if they can minimize their companion use due to the number of people at the table.in games with 6+ players, some rule no companionsAre you aware that you're in the Society section of the boards?
When playing my summoner at large table, I minimize the amount I use the summoner. Unless it is a social encounter.
She Looovvveeesss parties.
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#1 Summoners and it's not just about damage. The eidolon really can't die, so that changes the player's play style and therefore affects the gameplay of tables Summoners are at. GMs get aggressive to counter eidolons and PCs that can die are effected.
GM's get aggressive with most of my characters.
Except the wizard, but I don't think he's ever managed kill anything except the occasional swarm. Mostly just the occasional buff or Grease spell.
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But the Wizard making a mockery of most challenges is ok because why?I don't think he said it was okay.Here's a difference: Not EVERY wizard does this. Sure, dazing persistent black tentacles? There goes the fight. But throwing haste on the party, buffing, damage spells that are frankly, meh will not. So you see some wizards that are breaking the game and some that aren't: it gives wizards a better reputation.
ALL gunslingers can mow things down. The class is very cookie cutter and the resulting gingerbread man just mows through things because targeting touch AC is an automatic hit when armor is supposed to be the majority of your armorclass.
So we're setting our arbitrary cut-off point for when a class is too powerful based on an average PC of that class, rather than an optimised one?
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Actually, I am not convinced it is all that smart. At 15 gp per charge you are still spending money and you are wasting at least a standard action if not a full round attack to save you some money. And that's not even counting the fact you would have to save 2000 gp in ammunition before you broke even with the Ioun Stone.
Because he used his wand extremely liberally, there was only a handful of occasions where he had to bother to use it during combat. During more dungeon crawlish modules, our oracle just extended the spell for him when we stepped in. During scenarios, he typically used a charge before talking to an NPC, opening doors in suspicious or dangerous locations, messing with the giant puzzle, ect. He never spent a single gold piece on the wands themselves since we have prestige points.
That PC also ran to 19th level with a double-barreled pistol as well. When you are taking 6 shots a round by 6th level, 8 at 11th level, 10+ at 16th level, he certainly saved himself thousands of gold using the wands.
If you are not playing to a higher level and/or using a double-barreled firearm, I can concede your point that it might not be worth jumping the hoops in that case though.
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I'm thinking nobody is saying wizards because they aren't showing to the game with 3 full spellbooks of spells, 15 wands, and 100 scrolls like a home game wizard will.
The reason very few are saying wizard is that it's not "wizard" that causes issues. It's a wizard + Persistent Spell + Staff of the Master + bonded object + Blessed Book (or another set of feats/gear/class choices) that people don't like. You would have to ban certain combinations.
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But the Wizard making a mockery of most challenges is ok because why?I don't think he said it was okay.Here's a difference: Not EVERY wizard does this. Sure, dazing persistent black tentacles? There goes the fight. But throwing haste on the party, buffing, damage spells that are frankly, meh will not. So you see some wizards that are breaking the game and some that aren't: it gives wizards a better reputation.
ALL gunslingers can mow things down. The class is very cookie cutter and the resulting gingerbread man just mows through things because targeting touch AC is an automatic hit when armor is supposed to be the majority of your armorclass.
Don't you just love blanket statements, especially when they are not true?
My 5th level Gunslinger, being a plain vanilla Gunslinger using a musket, has only a handful of kills in multiple scenarios, the main one being an evil monk in one scenario that he confirmed a crit on, so did 4d12+4 (Point Blank Shot) to. IIRC, I rolled extremely well, and did a whole 35 points of damage.
On average, with a single shot, doing, up to this level, 1d12+1, he gets in maybe one shot, scratching the target, then the various melee builds go to town, doing multiple times his damage, and totally squishing the target.
Seriously, at low levels, the Gunslinger, and I have GMed for several, is lackluster. 1d8 or 1d12, at best, with +1 or +2 on a good day...
If that wall-climbing NPC caster had had a serious damage spell, the party would have been toast. If that NPC had been an alchemist, with bombs, that party would have been toast.
You know, if more PCs carried some sort of ranged option, other than dedicated archers, Gunslingers wouldn't have the reputation they have, nor would some TPKs have happened. YMMV.
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But dipping a level of crossblooded sorcerer (orc/dragon) so you do +2 damage per damage die with your Wizard spells or dipping a level of Cleric of Gozreh so you can get the Growth subdomain so you can enlarge 7 rounds per day with your otherwise reasonable Dragon Disciple...... is perfectly fine.
Or maybe is badwrongfun if you are that type of bully.
I don't appreciate being misrepresented. I don't bully anyone.
But nobody can sit here and say that dipping particular classes just to specifically eke every last ounce of power out of the game rules isn't overpowered.
If that's how you have fun, so be it. You just happen to have fun with overpowered options.
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But dipping a level of crossblooded sorcerer (orc/dragon) so you do +2 damage per damage die with your Wizard spellsFinally, a way to actually get vaguely encounter relevant direct damage spells as opposed to the anaemic rubbish they are without it. Also you missed the Goblin Fire Drum for +3/dice. The move from 2e to 3e murdered direct damage as an effective form of magic as HP scale far faster than damage dice do.
or dipping a level of Cleric of Gozreh so you can get the Growth subdomain so you can enlarge 7 rounds per day with your otherwise reasonable Dragon Disciple...Or they could just cast Enlarge Person, its only level 1 and lasts 1minute/level. Dipping and losing yet another caster level seems like a terrible idea.
Uh, what?!
Not sure how you can argue with a straight face that magic is underpowered and the only way to make it worthwhile is to make a dubious single class level dip to amp it up.
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I'm curious to see what various GM's who have different amounts of time of experience. I'm guessing newer GM's might have different opinions than more veteran ones.
The Monk (Well, the limited concept classes in general. Like the Barbarian as well, but... Let's focus on this one.)
The problem with the Monk is it's concept and execution. It sucks mechanically too. It's a low armour, medium hit die front line fighter, that's a recipe for disaster.
Worse is that unlike the other classes, it's very focused. It's got a single schtick. You punch people in the face. That's it. Most of the other classes, at least the basic four have a lot more leeway.
The Fighter can be a Knight, the professional Mercenary, the talented Farmboy, the Tribal Warrior (no, Barbarians do not fit that, not all tribal societies are made up of people with anger management issues) among many, many more.
The Wizard has a MINIMUM of 9 separate options, all of which corresponds into the various Schools. Necromancer (the perennial favourite), Oracle (Diviners), Enchantress, Conjurers... And a tenth category the 'generalist'.
Clerics has as many archetypes as there are Gods you can dream up. Witch Hunters, the Fire and Brimstone Battlepreacher, the Knight Hospitaller, all viable and more.
And Rogues? Well, what do you want to play? A parkour specialist? A cat burglar? A begger/pick pocket? A trained 'government' assassin? SOLD!
Even Paladins and Rangers and Bards have a slightly less, but still wide group of options.
But the Monk? It punches things. And it's Faux-Asian. Often in a setting that won't have any Asian influence.
It's like that kid when you were 14 years old, who wants to play a Ninja. It doesn't matter what setting your playing, or what world idea, he wants to play a NINJA! It has to be Japanese, it has to have a Katana, and it has to be a SUPER MARTIAL ARTS ASSASSIN!
That is the Monk. Even the Barbarian who is pretty singularly focused, at least the Barby has the ability to be in any setting (Yes, there are various world wide, real life, tribal societies that had their 'elite' or scary warriors that had, literally, anger management issues. In Africa, South America...) despite it's limited focus.
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I can name three that I don't really want to see banned (I'm keener on seeing more stuff permitted), but if I were told they HAD to ban one of the presently-legal classes and it fell to me to choose, I'd choose one of the following (in no meaningful order) as a statement of being dissatisfied with them:
- The Ninja. It's not terrible, but I'm not satisfied with how they did it. My favorite ninja class to date is the iteration from 3.0's Rokugan Campaign Setting (pages 39-41 here): An emphasis on Dexterity and Intelligence as prime ability scores (I'd no doubt base the Pathfinder Ninja's Ki Pool on Intelligence rather than Charisma), and superior fighting skills in exchange for inferior thieving skills relative to a Rogue.
- The Samurai. In its extant form, I don't feel it's different enough from the Cavalier to warrant being an "alternate class" as opposed to simply an Archetype. I definitely want a non-mounted Samurai that isn't a tragic letdown like the Sword Saint Archetype is.
- The Magus. As Pathfinder's stab at the long-sought warrior-sorcerer hybrid, I consider it a disappointment. The name is thoroughly uninspired (and ought to be reserved for something that's more of a Babylonian astrologer or wizard-priest hybrid), it ought to be closer to the Paladin, rather than Bard, mold, and the fact that its default spiel, two-weapon fighting with magic being the off-hand weapon, is kind of hardwired into the class rather than being a (perfectly fine) option for which direction to take it out of several, is too restricting and without justification by the character concept (which seems more than a little absent).
- Pretty much all the classes we're seeing in the Advanced Class Guide. "Uninspired" is a decent word for what's wrong with them. Most of them just take mechanics and mash them together without sufficient (or even zero) foundational vision.
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So we're setting our arbitrary cut-off point for when a class is too powerful based on an average PC of that class, rather than an optimised one?
Yes, this was my initial intention for this thread. I assume that just about any and every class can be super optimized. I think that's to be expected to some extent. I suppose that I could have reworded my question to ask what base classes do you feel might be a mistake to be sanctioned in view of fair and balanced play in PFS?
So far, it looks like Gunslinger and Summoner are neck-and-neck. I'm a little surprised that the Magus didn't get a bit more infamy here.
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I'm curious to see what various GM's who have different amounts of time of experience. I'm guessing newer GM's might have different opinions than more veteran ones.The Monk (Well, the limited concept classes in general. Like the Barbarian as well, but... Let's focus on this one.)
The problem with the Monk is it's concept and execution. It sucks mechanically too. It's a low armour, medium hit die front line fighter, that's a recipe for disaster.
Worse is that unlike the other classes, it's very focused. It's got a single schtick. You punch people in the face. That's it. Most of the other classes, at least the basic four have a lot more leeway.
The Fighter can be a Knight, the professional Mercenary, the talented Farmboy, the Tribal Warrior (no, Barbarians do not fit that, not all tribal societies are made up of people with anger management issues) among many, many more.
The Wizard has a MINIMUM of 9 separate options, all of which corresponds into the various Schools. Necromancer (the perennial favourite), Oracle (Diviners), Enchantress, Conjurers... And a tenth category the 'generalist'.
Clerics has as many archetypes as there are Gods you can dream up. Witch Hunters, the Fire and Brimstone Battlepreacher, the Knight Hospitaller, all viable and more.
And Rogues? Well, what do you want to play? A parkour specialist? A cat burglar? A begger/pick pocket? A trained 'government' assassin? SOLD!
Even Paladins and Rangers and Bards have a slightly less, but still wide group of options.
But the Monk? It punches things. And it's Faux-Asian. Often in a setting that won't have any Asian influence.
It's like that kid when you were 14 years old, who wants to play a Ninja. It doesn't matter what setting your playing, or what world idea, he wants to play a NINJA! It has to be Japanese, it has to have a Katana, and it has to be a SUPER MARTIAL ARTS ASSASSIN!
That is the Monk. Even the Barbarian who is pretty singularly focused, at least the Barby...
The Monk isn't asian. The monk is an unarmored combat class that can use weapons or fists. That can be a French Savate duelist, an Ancient Greek Pankration practitioner, a Modern Boxer, a parkour specialist (and is better at it than the rogue), a Zulu Warrior (or an Aiel if you like wheel of time), or any of a dozen other concepts than "faux asian martial artist"
You are focusing on the fluff when a class is nothing but mechanics.
Granted, the core mechanics of the monk are bad, but archetypes and the FAQs have made the monk quite viable and able to cover many roles.
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Monk defaults to Asian themed, with the Asian themed abilities like ki and archetypes like sohei and quigong (sp?).
Yes, you can play it as something else, just like I'm playing a lorewarden/ninja who is a "swashbuckler". But it still defaults to Asian themed unless the player specifically goes against said default.
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So we're setting our arbitrary cut-off point for when a class is too powerful based on an average PC of that class, rather than an optimised one?Yes, this was my initial intention for this thread. I assume that just about any and every class can be super optimized. I think that's to be expected to some extent. I suppose that I could have reworded my question to ask what base classes do you feel might be a mistake to be sanctioned in view of fair and balanced play in PFS?
Ah, well in that case, all of them except one.
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So we're setting our arbitrary cut-off point for when a class is too powerful based on an average PC of that class, rather than an optimised one?Yes, this was my initial intention for this thread. I assume that just about any and every class can be super optimized. I think that's to be expected to some extent. I suppose that I could have reworded my question to ask what base classes do you feel might be a mistake to be sanctioned in view of fair and balanced play in PFS?
So far, it looks like Gunslinger and Summoner are neck-and-neck. I'm a little surprised that the Magus didn't get a bit more infamy here.
The magus is pretty weak sauce compared to the gunslinger and pet classes. Also, many dubious magus builds are built around a dubious feat: dervish dance. Being forced to two-weapon fight is inherently limiting, in my opinion.
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But the Wizard making a mockery of most challenges is ok because why?
My experience is that wizards tend to have fewer resources available to them than the number of bullets that a gunslinger can carry. They both attack on touch AC but often against monsters like dragons and demons they must contend with spell resistance or magical deflection which can hamper them. Gunslingers don't have that worry and can keep popping shots into that big bad and his 10 touch AC. If the gunslinger had to use grit to get the touch AC it wouldn't be so bad.
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Okay,
I like gunslingers but I'm more of a pulp fantasy guy than a middle earth fantasy guy.
My experience with my mm 5/gren 6 has had a few XPLODEY moments where my gunslinger tip toes out of the box into the WTF DID YOU DO?!? damage levels. (110 points on a vermin in this one scenario. Is the latest) but I hear about GMs going on an on about massive dp via hail of bullets
1 if you're doing HUGE amounts of attacks with a gun after the second round, you're doing it with paper cartridges to keep up your reload speed (I prefer vital strike over them) that means you (as the GM) aren't paying attention to the misfire value. It goes up by one. And if it misfires once you add even more. I typically roll a 1-2 about once a game and use a grot to clear. If I'm using my pepper box or double barrel musket,mi have to watch for a 1-3 or 1-4 for paper carts.
2 . Double barrel. Shenanigans. Simple fix, make shooting both a standard action. Makes it potent at low levels while keeping the rain of lead down. I got my double barrel musket for two reason: I hada boon for one item and I figured two barrels would cut down on reloading arguments with some GMs.
I really get tired of the exploitive builds being used as examples of how a typical class player is having BADWRONGGAMEBREAKINGFUN. I don't base my outlook of how the summoner with the pounce monster/shred beast with pages of spell knowledge (summon oval ???) makes the humanoid eidolon archer weapon wielder is badwrrongfun.
Yeah my gunslinger isn't the hail of lead type and I take a LOT of shots out of her pistol or musket first increment but that is my buld but a LOT of the complaints I here is that they are filling the air with lead and having not a single bad thing in turn. That tells me misfire isn't being watched.
Yeat at the same table my gunslinger is doing 30-40 points a vital strike, I am more dangerous than the beat stick guy running around hitting 2 to 3 times for 40+ a hit or the archer clustering shot of upwards of 60+ is the bad/broken character.? And the archer, courtesy of durable arrows, gets his ammo back?
I hear a lot of 'not in MY golorain' in these posts. This isn't YOUR game, it's not MY game..it's a SHARED world.
I typically build my PCs to be part of a team. Most of the barrage monsters I've heard of don't. As a GM, I keep that in mind for ALL uber optimized types. 'untoubale tank with huge shield and chained bastard sword' in hand.. Not so charming. Gore splattered Titan mauler not so convincing to the city guards. My gunslinger standing there in flame red mail looking like a merchants bodyguard hand the face of the party a note as part of an assist to his diplomacy roll? Who do you think contributes more to role playing encounters?
I'm hearing a lot of they break encounters but not much of how they fail role play ing encounters
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I like that you based your choice off of something other than "this class is more powerful than the power limit I've arbitrarily decided is acceptable", Christopher.
"If there was one class you'd wish Paizo to drop from PFS legality, which one would it be and why?"
The entire point of this thread is for everyone to blow off steam about the classes that really grind their gears.
People's reasons don't need to make sense. It's a vent thread.
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I am not really sure why rogues are seen as so terrible. While they require much more forethought and finesse than fighters I have had my frontline, weapon finesse, improved feint rogue destroy enemies while maintaining an ac of around 31 at level 7 in skull and shackles using almost no homebrew rules, with a DPR of around 23 with only a +1 Rapier.
I personally despise Summoners for several reasons:
1. They almost never keep track of summoning notes, as such they often bog the game down.
2. Eidolons are horribly powerful in the hands of a minorly competent summoner. If you know how to build your Eidolon, its incredibly obnoxious, and deffinitly more powerful than most animal companions.
3. Access to feats to add more power to their eidolon while their eidolon ALSO gains access to feats.
4. They get good spells early. Haste is a Level 2 spell for them, DDoor level 3.
5. Standard Action Summons. Summon Wooly Rhinocerous and have it charge from opposite direction of your eidolon. Eidolon Charges. +4 from charge+flank.