BigNorseWolf |
BigNorseWolf wrote:The difference is that the summoner doesn't even burn spell slots to summon things, he can do it more often than there are encounters.And has access to a lot less spells and slower spellcasting progression.
Except the progression is sped back up by the summon monster, haste, and other spells being lower level.
trollbill Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne |
PrinceRaven wrote:Which is offset by the meat shield called Eidolon.BigNorseWolf wrote:The difference is that the summoner doesn't even burn spell slots to summon things, he can do it more often than there are encounters.And has access to a lot less spells and slower spellcasting progression.
And having spells like Haste as a second level spell.
*ninja'd by the wolf*
Jericho Graves |
What class should be banned in PFS? Any archetype. As mostly a home-GM I think that alot of the OP problems come from Archetype mixing and matching. In fact, in our home game, you have to write me a physical backstory that logically explains your archetype. Then I count it toward your multiclass limit. (We still run with that rule. Maximum of 3 classes + 1 prc).
But alas, a home game is not PFS. I will admit I've only GMed PFS modules twice before some of my players quit. They had an issue with the whole not keeping treasure from the encounter thing.
Martin Kauffman 530 |
Personally, I just don't think gunslinger fits into a fantasy type setting; and I ban it in my home games. I also think that summoner is overpowered. Nevertheless, I recognize that different people have differing interests and opinions; and that, in order to maximize profitability by attracting a lsrger and diverse audience, I don't think Paizo should ban any of the present classes. In people's home games, they can tailor the choices/ rules variations to meet their own preferences.
PrinceRaven |
I still don't see why people are upset about the power level, this is a game where we have mundanes routinely overshadowed by spellcasters, the gap in power between a Monk and a Wizard is massive but we have absolutely no problem with them both being in the same party. Not to mention this is a co-operative game where PvP is strictly prohibited, it's the power levels of the enemies you should be worried about, not your allies.
BigNorseWolf |
I still don't see why people are upset about the power level, this is a game where we have mundanes routinely overshadowed by spellcasters, the gap in power between a Monk and a Wizard is massive but we have absolutely no problem with them both being in the same party. Not to mention this is a co-operative game where PvP is strictly prohibited, it's the power levels of the enemies you should be worried about, not your allies.
With the monk and the wizard there's at least the idea of incomparables: that while the wizard may toss out limited amounts of lightning and warp reality its hard to do a direct comparison between the value of the two can't be directly compared because they're completely differen things: apples and oranges.
With the summoner's eidolon you can directly compare what it does (fight , hit, grapple) to the monk and.. it doesn't look good for the monk.
MrTsFloatinghead Venture-Agent |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
The "problem" with the summoner is really just that it can do pretty much anything well. People look at the summoner and say "It can do any party role", and then proceed to mentally picture it doing all those things, all at once (a mental image which is propped up by visions of armies of summoned creatures "ruining" the action economy game).
The fact is, most people (and this thread provides several examples) treat the summoner basically like Schrodinger's Wizard - the fact that the summoner has a possible response to almost any individual problem suddenly means that the summoner is solving those problems simultaneously, or at least means that the party doesn't "need" class "X" "Y" and "Z" anymore.
This really sticks in the craw of people who conflate co-dependency with balance, and so think it is "broken" or at least "unfun" to have a single character who can perform multiple roles, because it steals the spotlight from other players. This, I think, is more of a gaming philosophy difference than anything else.
Some people like a system that forces team play by deliberately creating party interdependence, because it naturally seems to give different players a chance to shine. I suppose ideally that might be true, but in my experience what tends to happen is that it encourages a kind of mechanical myopia on players, who come to see their characters as less full bodied characters, and more as a mechanical delivery system for damage, trap finding, healing, social encounters, buffing, etc. Quite literally, the character becomes his/her job, and nothing more.
Seen from that angle, the summoner is more or less an existential threat to the entire rest of the party, because why have a fighter when you have an eidolon, etc. In my view, though, the summoner being able to do multiple jobs is a feature, not a bug. I don't like the kludge of interdependence as a way to force the spotlight onto a character - instead, I try to give players the chance to organically seize the spotlight and develop their characters. From that angle, flexible characters are great because they can let players experiment with multiple roles with the same characters, and thus potentially develop them in unexpected or interesting ways. The downside here is that my approach really requires mature players (both in the sense of behaving like adults, and in the sense of having a well developed set of gaming skills), as occasionally a player may have to let someone else handle something, even if that creates a less optimal outcome.
For PFS, it may well be that demanding that level of maturity from players is unrealistic, but even so I feel much of the received wisdom on the forums about how the summoner is "broken" is really rooted in assumptions that too often go unexplored. It seems to me that a summoner that is doing "X" isn't taking away a character's role, so much as making it so that character isn't forced to do "X" anymore.
Finlanderboy |
I do not think apples to oranges is a good argument.
Some classes are better at solving problems during an adventure than others.
Certain things in the game other people to enjoy the game less. So they want those items removed.
The problem is almost always, it is not the class it is the player playing that class.
Unless you force everyone to play the same pregen there will ALWAYS be the issue of thwat to ban.
MrRetsej |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would wish to remove the class of players who call for the removal of character classes from PFS.
Looking at the repetitive posts decrying the non-open races, or non-open archetypes, and wondering why we would ever contemplate adding non-open Paizo base/core classes.... No.
Just no.
This, 100%. There's no need for these kinds of threads. They accomplish little beyond providing a soapbox for a highly vocal yet negative minority at the expense of every player and GM who is happy with the Classes but doesn't feel a need to constantly check the forums.
David Bowles |
I wouldn't remove a class, but I would remove animal companions. 100% pure unadulterated cheese. Classes with access to animal companions are worse than summoners in my experience, because the class with the animal is almost always better than the summoner, a life support class for the eidolon. I can get a full-powered sorcerer with a full-powered animal. Yeah....
"and they are much more powerful than a Durid's Animal Companion."
Not really. That's the sad part. And the summoner has to share equipment slots. The druid doesn't. The animal companions gets a free size increase. Eidolons have to pay. The druid can wild shape and summon additional creatures while their pet is active. The summoner has to specifically learn summon monster to do that and sacrifice a precious spell known. And can't wild shape.
Bottom line line is that I can fill the table with summons with a mid-level druid, which is automatic flanking for my pet and flanking for many of the summoned creatures. Your typical summoner can't do anything like this since they banned master summoner.
"In all the PFS tables I've been at, the class has been the most responsible for the "unhappy face" worn by fellow PCs when they are sitting next to a summoner with a souped up eidolon, especially at low levels."
Animal companions for me. There's nothing worse than having newer players completely shown up by a cat. Even worse, experienced players' characters shown up by a cat. Both have happened. I think most Ohio players are just kinda numb to it now.
Mattastrophic |
Your typical summoner can't do anything like this since they banned master summoner.
Actually, your typical summoner can do this exact thing.
The Summoner may not be able to use his Summon Monster ability while his eidolon is active, but he sure can summon his eidolon while his Summon Monster ability is active. The typical way takes a minute. The fast way takes a round.
What this means is that the Summoner doesn't actually have to choose between his two combat-wrecking class features above and beyond his 3/4 BAB, armored casting, and might-as-well-be-full spell suite. He can have his cake and eat it too.
-Matt
David Bowles |
Page of spell knowledge is pretty cheap for a summoner, considering he never has to go above 6th level prices on it.
Fair enough. Please note that I'm not denying that the summoner is a very powerful class: it is. However, the ability of many classes to access the animal companion, and the animal companion's very generous advancement table make it more abusive in my book. By a nose, if you will.
If other classes had access to the eidolon, I would 100% agree. But summoners can't compete with clerics and sorcerers with full-powered animal companions.
At the very least, boon companion should be banned.
BigNorseWolf |
I don't understand how gunslingers are any worse than Zen archers, fighter archers, or other optimized archery builds. Is it the touch AC thing?
Yes, its the touch AC thing. The system can kinda deal with the others by increasing ac. Unless EVERY badguy from here on out is a LE monk touch acs simply don't keep pace.
BigNorseWolf |
So much complaining about summoners... but honestly I have seen gunslingers cause much more trouble than summoners ever could. A gunslinger in the last Confirmation run I was in trivialized almost every encounter.
How? They do like, 1d10 points of damage a round tops. A barbarian with a two handed beatstick blows that out of the water.
Artanthos |
I'm pretty happy with all of the classes.
If I had to pick one, Monk, just to cut down on splash levels.
And what of the people playing straight monk?
I would cut gunslinger. Most days, I just don't like mixing guns into the swords & sorcery. At least, not until they release a technomancer class.
Artanthos |
Matrix Dragon wrote:So much complaining about summoners... but honestly I have seen gunslingers cause much more trouble than summoners ever could. A gunslinger in the last Confirmation run I was in trivialized almost every encounter.How? They do like, 1d10 points of damage a round tops. A barbarian with a two handed beatstick blows that out of the water.
At low level, the barbarian blows everybody out of the water, including the summoner.
BigNorseWolf |
Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.
Damage reduction.
The really good critters have multiple attacks, and few good ways to get around the rather ubiquitous damage reduction that the scenarios throw at us. DR makes multi attacking critters DPR drop. Your amulet of mighty fists can hit +3 but thats near the end of the game.
David Bowles |
David Bowles wrote:Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.Damage reduction.
The really good critters have multiple attacks, and few good ways to get around the rather ubiquitous damage reduction that the scenarios throw at us. DR makes multi attacking critters DPR drop. Your amulet of mighty fists can hit +3 but thats near the end of the game.
Maybe. But animals can power attack with their enormous strength stat and just power through it. I can make the same argument for multi-attacking eidolons, too.
Fromper |
David Bowles wrote:Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.Damage reduction.
The really good critters have multiple attacks, and few good ways to get around the rather ubiquitous damage reduction that the scenarios throw at us. DR makes multi attacking critters DPR drop. Your amulet of mighty fists can hit +3 but thats near the end of the game.
Yup. Druid animal companions are awesome at low levels, but they become less effective starting around level 5, because their damage output just can't keep up.
David Bowles |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Yup. Druid animal companions are awesome at low levels, but they become less effective starting around level 5, because their damage output just can't keep up.David Bowles wrote:Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.Damage reduction.
The really good critters have multiple attacks, and few good ways to get around the rather ubiquitous damage reduction that the scenarios throw at us. DR makes multi attacking critters DPR drop. Your amulet of mighty fists can hit +3 but thats near the end of the game.
People keep telling me this, but it doesn't seem to work out in practice. Level 7 is when many animals get their free size upgrade and get a huge STR boost. That seems to help a lot.
Muser |
And they are animals, so Handle Animal, animal spells, inability to use some magic items(recently an ioun stone, which caused a dire tiger to miss a whole scenario) and su-abilities such an unnatural presence/aura can be problematic.
This reminds me: I don't let animal companions into the Hao-Jin Tapestry. They can't do the required ritual.
Muser |
The Hao-Jin tapestry thing is a very good point, but the rest of what you listed is rarely an issue. The "attack anything" trick pretty much nerfs auras and handle animal is not a barrier for animal companions.
I respectfully disagree, but that's beside the point. Eidolons don't have any of these issues and in fact function very much like a secondary character.
David Bowles |
David Bowles wrote:The Hao-Jin tapestry thing is a very good point, but the rest of what you listed is rarely an issue. The "attack anything" trick pretty much nerfs auras and handle animal is not a barrier for animal companions.I respectfully disagree, but that's beside the point. Eidolons don't have any of these issues and in fact function very much like a secondary character.
I'm not sure what there is to disagree about. Sure, auras that force saving throws vs will are decent against animal companions, but the "attack anything" trick (at least with every GM I've played with) overcomes all other concerns about being animal.
Yeah, eidolons don't have these problems, but eidolons aren't available to cleric, sorcerers, barbarians, and rangers.
Artanthos |
David Bowles wrote:Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.Damage reduction.
The really good critters have multiple attacks, and few good ways to get around the rather ubiquitous damage reduction that the scenarios throw at us. DR makes multi attacking critters DPR drop. Your amulet of mighty fists can hit +3 but thats near the end of the game.
Eidolons suffer the same DR woes that animal companions do.
Almost half the scenarios I've run with my summoner to date have involved monsters with DR, starting with all three of the scenarios she ran at 1st level.
trollbill Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne |
Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two.
Now if I could just get my Eidolon a musket...
I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.
Probably because this thread is about which 'one' character class you would ban and there are several character classes that get animal companions.
trollbill Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne |
BigNorseWolf wrote:David Bowles wrote:Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.Damage reduction.
The really good critters have multiple attacks, and few good ways to get around the rather ubiquitous damage reduction that the scenarios throw at us. DR makes multi attacking critters DPR drop. Your amulet of mighty fists can hit +3 but thats near the end of the game.
Eidolons suffer the same DR woes that animal companions do.
Almost half the scenarios I've run with my summoner to date have involved monsters with DR, starting with all three of the scenarios she ran at 1st level.
You can arm Eidolons with special material weapons.
David Bowles |
David Bowles wrote:Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two.Now if I could just get my Eidolon a musket...
Quote:I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.Probably because this thread is about which 'one' character class you would ban and there are several character classes that get animal companions.
Fair enough.
TriOmegaZero |
Eidolons suffer the same DR woes that animal companions do.
Almost half the scenarios I've run with my summoner to date have involved monsters with DR, starting with all three of the scenarios she ran at 1st level.
Running 7-11 at PaizoCon with a pouncing monstrosity with 11 attacks, I can say that DR was the big equalizing factor. The BBEG took 15 points off every one of its attacks. Of course, that meant it took 2 rounds to finish the fight instead of 1, but hey. It's something.
David Bowles |
Artanthos wrote:You can arm Eidolons with special material weapons.BigNorseWolf wrote:David Bowles wrote:Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.Damage reduction.
The really good critters have multiple attacks, and few good ways to get around the rather ubiquitous damage reduction that the scenarios throw at us. DR makes multi attacking critters DPR drop. Your amulet of mighty fists can hit +3 but thats near the end of the game.
Eidolons suffer the same DR woes that animal companions do.
Almost half the scenarios I've run with my summoner to date have involved monsters with DR, starting with all three of the scenarios she ran at 1st level.
Not pouncing quadrupeds. I have a summoner with a bipedal Eidolon who will be using manufactured weapons, and animal companions make that character look stupidly ineffective.
trollbill Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne |
David Bowles |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
David Bowles wrote:" pouncing monstrosity with 11 attacks,"
The eidolon table prevents this from being legal.
It prevents it from gaining 11 NATURAL attacks...quadreped with multiple limb,arms evolutions could pull it off I bet.
I had a 5th level summoner with 6 sword attacks this past weekend.
Okay, I surrender in the cheese wars.