Well, from examining the thread carefully, it appears that summoner is the hands down favorite, with gunslinger number two. I understand the reasoning behind the summoner, I just don't understand why animal companions get a free pass from the posting community.
You have ONE companion, which is not infinitely customizable. Eidolons are also way more powerful than animal companions.
But let's not say "a free pass"- in games with 6+ players, some rule no companions, and every experienced DM sez that if you have one, you must know it's stats and don't drag out your turn.
A Druid also doesn't get bonus standard action summonings. It doesn't seem like a big deal- Std action vs one round, but it is. After the Eidolon is dead, a Summoner can & will spam Monster Summoning like crazy.
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I think we should ban any class that can deal an average in excess of 150 hp of damage in a single round, all with touch attacks. The books have gotten out of hand.
The Fighter.
Human.
Str 28
(Base 18, racial +2, 4th- and 8th-level modifiers +1 each, enhancement +6)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Critical Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization.
boots of speed 12,000 gp
belt of giant strength +6 36,000 gp
+1 large brilliant energy bastard sword (50) 50,360 gp
Total = 98,360 gp
Going by the Wealth By Level Table, this guys still has another 10,000 gp or so to spend elsewhere.
Attack Modifiers
BAB +12/+12/+7/+5
Weapon Training +2
Weapon Focus +1
Greater Weapon Focus +1
magic +1
Str +9
Power Attack –4
Large Weapon –2
TOTAL = +20
Damage Modifiers
Weapon Training +2
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater Weapon Specialization +2
Power Attack +12
Str +13
magic +1
TOTAL = +32
Melee +1 large brilliant energy bastard sword using Power Attack +20/+20/+15/+10 touch (3d6+32, critical: 17-20)
Average damage, assuming all attacks hit and none are critical hits = 170 hp.
Core Rulebook
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My vote would have the be the alchemist: bombs are so much more deadly than damage dealing spells (expecially at the level 8+ range see math in the spoiler below), the ability to heal themselves (and potentially others), the ability for a decently built alchemist to be as good at melee combat as a barbarian, for longer periods of time (mutagen lasts 10 minutes a level, barbarians get 4+ con mod. +2 rnds/lvl), they can get (EX) flight, and should they worship Urgathoa, they can drink all of their extracts as a swift action.
The most damaging 4th level spell that you can cast as an 8th level sorcerer is an empowered fireball cast by a crossblooded dragon/orc sorc (including the half-orc favored class bonus for sorcs). Assuming the target fails it's save, and average damage, the sorcerer is doing 10d6 +20 (class bonus) +4 (favored class) * 150%, or 79.5 (35 for the average damage, +20 +4 *1.5) damage. Incredibly respectable.
The alchemist, on the other hand throws 4 bombs with fast bombs, rapid shot, and haste. let's assume that for the sake of argument he hits 4 times and doesn't crit. each bomb at that level will be doing 5d6 +int (let's be conservative and say +6) +4 (for the favored class bonus). Each bomb would be doing an average of 27.5 damage (unless it's doing sonic or force, in which case it would be averaging 22.5 damage), for a grand total of 110 damage (or 90 with force/concussive bombs).
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Hmm, if I wanted to ban something then the Staff of the Master Necromancer would probably be up there. It probably doesn't come on line until the late game, a little earlier if you use Arcane Bond, but the ability to freely add persistent/dazing/quicken spell to your highest level spells is incredibly powerful. It is better than any metamagic rod you might pick up at the price it has.
I would says that is underpriced in general and not just for PFS. At 30K it is cheaper than a lesser quicken rod at 35K and available at a lower level (lower prestige). Though like you say it is late game item (likely level 9) and it is a major investment. 2 Quickened 5th level spells and a persistent 5th level spell per scenario is definitely gonna perpetuate the overpowered wizard myth however. In multi-day scenarios you can recharge it with 3rd level spells too.
Hmm, is there anything stopping you using that staff twice in the same _round_ for metamagic purposes? Doing a quickened Hungry Pit followed by a persistent Icy Prison in one round would make folks throw tomatoes at you.
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Gunslingers, because it is a flavor thing.
I struggled (flavor wise) of the alchemist's splash damage including their Int bonus while the same bomb misses their allies. Can a sorcerer do this? Yes, Pyro and Iceman can shape their spells. Splash weapons on the other hand... :P
Honestly there are no classes I would drop, but I do hate cherry picking. Not just because it makes for some extremely powerful builds, but because I never see the 'flavor' in it. Maybe I am just grumpy because I had to level dip my fire wizard to remain competitive with the local group.
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I also think we should ban all mundane weapons because of a flavor thing. Swords and bows don't belong in a world where demons and angels are summoned from other planes of existence, where wizards and sorcerers call upon the elemental powers of nature, where dragons fly in the sky, and the undead walk the earth and are destroyed by clerics channeling the powers of the gods themselves. How does a rapier fit into this setting? I mean, really?
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I wanted to limit the discussion to straight damage, not factor in things like gear, or the alchemist using targeted bomb admixture and madness bombs or dispelling bombs.
The equivalent sorcerer1/wizard8 is also dealing an extra 15 damage with the goblin fire drum.
Then why did you factor in a buff spell for the Alchemist but no equivalent to the Sorcerer?
You are also disregarding the fact that the Sorcerer is doing that damage to everyone in a 20' radius, while the Alchemist only does that to one target with considerably less peripheral damage to everyone within a 10' radius.
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In the realms of OP'ness I am always surprised to see gunslingers, alchemists or paladins receive much if any mention. Sure they can do a decent amount of single target damage but a competent full caster can and will shut down an entire encounter worth of enemies.
Maybe its because blinding or dazing or nauseating everything on the board doesn't look as impressive or sexy as obliterating something with a bunch of damage rolls but if you are concerned about impact on encounters then full casters have all of the tricks.
I believe that's because most of us have already established casters exist in a realm of their own in terms of power level.
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TBH, I would consider removing paladins not for being OP but the sheer amount of play they get as party killing LG morons. Oh it could be really useful to go steal that item, sorry I can't allow your character to do what its designed to do cause I pray to Iomedae. Oh yeah and I'm the only LG character here I couldn't possibly look the other way to let others have fun too.
(TO clarify I mean the characters are morons (dumped INT) not the players)
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" pouncing monstrosity with 11 attacks,"
The eidolon table prevents this from being legal.
It prevents it from gaining 11 NATURAL attacks...quadreped with multiple limb,arms evolutions could pull it off I bet.
I had a 5th level summoner with 6 sword attacks this past weekend.
Can you please explain how this would work, so could be ready for it if shows up at my table.
I too find the Eidolon to be to powerful most of the time, but was glad one was at the table Sunday to prevent a TPK. Dominated Amiri killing the squishes in the back is not fun for some.
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I believe that's because most of us have already established casters exist in a realm of their own in terms of power level.In the realms of OP'ness I am always surprised to see gunslingers, alchemists or paladins receive much if any mention. Sure they can do a decent amount of single target damage but a competent full caster can and will shut down an entire encounter worth of enemies.
Maybe its because blinding or dazing or nauseating everything on the board doesn't look as impressive or sexy as obliterating something with a bunch of damage rolls but if you are concerned about impact on encounters then full casters have all of the tricks.
Spellcasters clearly always have to be the ones dominating encounters. This is why people hate Gunslingers and Summoners, because their ability to hit things really hard actually threatens to draw attention away from the showboating Wizard wrecking an encounter with a single spell.
Lots of people are complaining about the Summoner because the class is a) more powerful than any class not named Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Witch, or Oracle, b) able to summon lots of things (imagine that) which slows down the game if the player isn't competent enough... just like a conjuration Wizard, and c) requires a lot of bookkeeping, leading to players making mistakes.
I think part of the problem is the sort of player who takes advantage of the complex bookkeeping in order to be able to claim plausible deniability of cheating.
You know, the type who never seems to make bookkeeping errors that make them LESS powerful, but it prone to making the other kind?
That kind of player is drawn to that sort of class like a fly to... well.
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I am less interested in seeing any options banned than I am in seeing problem mechanics revisited by the developers. So far Mark is doing a pretty good job addressing those. How about next we admit double-barrel firearms were a mistake and do something about that?Firearms in general just need to be completely reworked. It's funny because you hear about the Gunslinger being OP/broken/what-have-you all the time, but the reality is that if he used crossbows instead of firearms, he'd be a great class. You could keep almost all of his abilities with very minor changes and no one would bat an eye. They'd just say "Cool, a Fighter alternate class that makes crossbows awesome!"
So to amend my earlier statement, there isn't really a class I'd want to see banned, just a poorly designed subsystem that one class is unfortunately chained to.
I tend to agree. Ditch the sketchy touch attack mechanic and the "E-Z Cheet" misfire rules, make all guns Dex to damage instead of having that be a class ability for the Gunslinger, and the class should work fine.
Or just have it work with crossbows instead. Also a good idea.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I've been playing a Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous. I'm armed with Radiance and yet I'm far behind Mr. Enlarging Oread Monk when it comes to damage, unless I'm using one of my limited smites, which puts me just about even.
Ummm...how exactly is the Oread Monk enlarging himself?
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Except for the fact that the Summoner is a spellcaster.
A 3/4 spontaneous caster with a much more limited spell selection. I've never heard "Summoners are OP because they've got the same sort of spellcasting abilities as a Bard". I'm hearing "Summoners are OP because Eidolon/Summon Monster X lets them do lots of damage".
I've been playing a Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous. I'm armed with Radiance and yet I'm far behind Mr. Enlarging Oread Monk when it comes to damage, unless I'm using one of my limited smites, which puts me just about even.Ummm...how exactly is the Oread Monk enlarging himself?
... Do Oreads have some sort of Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait?
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Except for the fact that the Summoner is a spellcaster.A 3/4 spontaneous caster with a much more limited spell selection. I've never heard "Summoners are OP because they've got the same sort of spellcasting abilities as a Bard". I'm hearing "Summoners are OP because Eidolon/Summon Monster X lets them do lots of damage".
Which puts the lie to your statement that the reason people hate Summoners is 'spellcasters have to be the ones dominating'.
And yes, the Summoners early spell access is yet another reason people complain.
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Spellcasters clearly always have to be the ones dominating encounters. This is why people hate Gunslingers and Summoners, because their ability to hit things really hard actually threatens to draw attention away from the showboating Wizard wrecking an encounter with a single spell.
In the case of gunslingers, I believe it is more along the lines of the base mechanics of the class and weapon choice being an "unfair" advantage over other martial characters in terms of targeting touch AC and doubling attacks for a minuscule -4 penalty on attack rolls.
In the case of the summoner, I believe it is more along the lines of incredibly efficient action economy between summoner and eidolon.
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#1 Summoners and it's not just about damage. The eidolon really can't die, so that changes the player's play style and therefore affects the gameplay of tables Summoners are at. GMs get aggressive to counter eidolons and PCs that can die are effected.
I would just like to go on record as saying that I have never "gotten aggressive" about countering any PC in PFS. I happen to enjoy it when my players are enjoying their characters and the session.
At worse, I may politely and subtly request a player to dial it back a bit if they are dominating the table to the point that few other players are getting to do much. Even then, I would only consider that route if the other players are clearly unhappy.
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What happens to a dimensionally anchored eidolon when it's brought below 0 hp?
Oooh, I know this one! It's dying and unconscious until it is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
My turn to ask a question! What happens to a dimensionally anchored eidolon when it is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than its Constitution score?
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
Also, dimensional anchor does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell.
The new kid comes into you're party He is using the gunslinger twf pistol build . hows the TWF hand crossbow rogue gonna feel about it.
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The new kid comes into you're party He is using the gunslinger twf pistol build . hows the TWF hand crossbow rogue gonna feel about it.
TWF hand crossbow rogues are the worst combat class in the game. There is no accuracy with a to hit penalty, no way to add static damage from an ability score, and no way to enable ranged sneak attacks. You need Rapid Reload to make a full attack each round, and crossbow mastery to no provoke when you do it.
He should be used to inadequacy.
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i do not find summoners to be op. to begin with any opponent with a 10 or better intellect will know to kill casters over direct melee. any spell caster will know an eidolon is only as good as the caster. what is a summoners hd:P as for eidolon if it dies they cant resummon it till next day usin a standard ritual.