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Gunslinger, I suppose, if I was going to get rid of any of the base classes. I'm not actively hostile to guns in D&D, just not a huge fan of it, and I think the touch attack mechanics are somewhat flawed. I'd prefer to see guns ignore some portion of armor, but not necessarily all of it if the armor bonus is particularly high.
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How long do you think it'll take for this to turn into a paladin hate thread? If we can't go at least 25 posts (real ones, not posts just to get the post count up because I said that) without an anti-paladin rant, then I'll make a new aasimar paladin, just to cheese those people off. :P
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Everyone has their own opinion, and you'll probably get twice as many opinions as there are classes, but...
For me, it's Summoner. It's pretty much the only class where the PC can turn invisible and stay within line of sight of a battle and still have a more effective/deadly creature under his/her control tearing things up. That, or the table suddenly gets 1d3+X more minis on the board, cluttering things up for the GM and the other players, and maybe even stealing other PCs' thunder from "doing things."
I'm expecting lots of people to say "Gunslinger" (my third favorite class, just so my biases are open and known), but to me...
They're hated on pretty much the same way Warlocks were in 3.5 - they're mostly a one-trick pony, and that trick is pretty powerful, and people generally don't like that. Although, unlike Summoners, Gunslingers have to be much closer to the fight even if they're going vs. touch AC most of the time.
A second case *for* the Gunslinger is gold. I played Siege of the Diamond City with my level 13 Gunslinger - I went through over 6,000gp of ammo (although half of that was a greater burrowing bullet on a Glabrezu that was about to full-attack-kill one of my party members) in less than 5 hours.
A third case for the 'slinger is math - people have run the numbers repeatedly, and have found that a Gunslinger vs. an Archer-Fighter do about the same damage, by the numbers, at the higher levels. Especially now that the Weapon Cord BS has been fixed, 'slingers can't get off "ludicrous speed" numbers of shots in a single round (lightspeed not too slow though).
So, yea, for me and me alone it's Summoners (and sorry in advance about the mini-rant...but my Gunslinger-player-senses are tingling that they're going to be hated on a bit in this thread :)
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CanisDirus, I'm curious as to what Weapon Cord BS you're alluding to.
It used to be a swift action to recover a weapon from a weapon cord, as opposed to now, where it's a move-action. VOs have told dark stories around campfires of PCs with one double-barreled pistol "dangling" from each wrist, fully loaded, with two more in-hand, and somehow that gunslinger was able to fire, "drop", grab, reload, grap, and fire something close to 12 attacks in a single round.
I never "dual-gun" with my 'slingers, and even the one I designed to shoot fast, only gets his iterative attacks (+ haste sometimes) "doubled" when using both barrels (higher % for misfire, -4 to the attacks), for at most 6 shots at ~ level 12.
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Gunslingers seem to be the most disliked here and I completely agree. I'm an old-school GM and don't really like firearms in a fantasy setting (unless I'm running a Freeport/Pirate style game, in which case the rules for guns are still broken but acceptable.
But the classes I believe should not be PFS legal are any out of the Advanced Class Guide. We have been playtesting those classes for a while now and I have to say they are all broken or way overpowered. While the concept of hybrid-style classes was a great idea, some don't work the way you might think. I know i'm gonna catch flak for this opinion but thats what my table has experienced.
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Bear in mind that the Advanced Class Guide classes aren't final. Anything overpowered should (theoretically) be better balanced in the final version. We'll have to see how that actually goes.
I get that they are not final. But even as playtest classes they are still legal PFS classes. This shouldn't have been the case until the official document was released. They do need a major overhaul
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Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, what do you mean when you say "cheesy"?Magus.
Im sure its a lovely class but I find it cheesy.
He probably means that it makes everything better. Cheeseburger, cheese pizza, chili with cheese, etc.
Makes note to make ratfolk magus/bloatmage with obsession for cheese.
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I'd remove multiclassing.This would solve almost all the problems of OP builds.
But it's for flavor I swear!
There's still crazy powerful builds with single classes (any summoner, twf gunslingers, most druids, etc), but it would certainly remove a lot of what some consider badwrongfuncheese.
*disclaimer* 1/2 my characters are multi-classed.
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Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, what do you mean when you say "cheesy"?Magus.
Im sure its a lovely class but I find it cheesy.
He probably means that it makes everything better. Cheeseburger, cheese pizza, chili with cheese, etc.
Makes note to make ratfolk magus/bloatmage with obsession for cheese.
I thought he just meant that they're not suitable for vegans, people with a dairy allergy, or Jews eating meat for dinner.
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I'd remove multiclassing.This would solve almost all the problems of OP builds.But it's for flavor I swear!
There's still crazy powerful builds with single classes (any summoner, twf gunslingers, most druids, etc), but it would certainly remove a lot of what some consider badwrongfuncheese.
*disclaimer* 1/2 my characters are multi-classed.
I have multiclassed characters as well. Many of the Prestige Classes require multiclassing to be able to take them. Bbauzh wouldn't exist in his current form if it weren't for the Rage Prophet requiring multiclassing.
But dipping a level of crossblooded sorcerer (orc/dragon) so you do +2 damage per damage die with your Wizard spells or dipping a level of Cleric of Gozreh so you can get the Growth subdomain so you can enlarge 7 rounds per day with your otherwise reasonable Dragon Disciple...
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To be honest I'm not sure I have any class that I want to remove. But I'd love to see some gunslinger adjustments (I say this but I wouldn't allow them in my home games) - Either a 3/4 BAB class or allowing at least heavy armor to have some effect on bullet going to touch AC, or some such.
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How long do you think it'll take for this to turn into a paladin hate thread? If we can't go at least 25 posts (real ones, not posts just to get the post count up because I said that) without an anti-paladin rant, then I'll make a new aasimar paladin, just to cheese those people off. :P
Wow. No paladin hate here. Color me surprised. Looks like gunslingers and summoners are the biggest losers.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, what do you mean when you say "cheesy"?Magus.
Im sure its a lovely class but I find it cheesy.
He probably means that it makes everything better. Cheeseburger, cheese pizza, chili with cheese, etc.
Makes note to make ratfolk magus/bloatmage with obsession for cheese.
When my group played a particular scenario where we knew we'd be meeting rat folk, one member of the group brought a few big wheels of cheese to use as bribes. The GM gave us a circumstance bonus to diplomacy for it.
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When my group played a particular scenario where we knew we'd be meeting rat folk, one member of the group brought a few big wheels of cheese to use as bribes. The GM gave us a circumstance bonus to diplomacy for it.
Several of my tables have done this as well. :-)
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But dipping a level of crossblooded sorcerer (orc/dragon) so you do +2 damage per damage die with your Wizard spells or dipping a level of Cleric of Gozreh so you can get the Growth subdomain so you can enlarge 7 rounds per day with your otherwise reasonable Dragon Disciple...
... is perfectly fine.
Or maybe is badwrongfun if you are that type of bully.
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Witch.
It is insane that the target of a hex can save, still be affected, then get cackled to death. Literally.
You saved versus the effect, why are you still suffering from it round after round after round?
Where, in that, is there anything that increases the fun for the GM who has to deal with that kind of BS?
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Summoner...but only because the Eidolon rules are not so clear...
I see all of the gunslinger hate but haven't seen it at the tables...they have their moments to shine but so do the all of the 2H weapon crushing melee builds (at low levels) and all of the mage save or die aspects at higher levels. - I've seen the havoc of blindness builds.
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But it's for flavor I swear!
And both of my summoners this is absolutely true (and I wouldn't have two but for a stupid argument on these forums got an idea stuck in my head).
And 200+ points touch + full bab in one round is obviously bad/wrong fun.
That and my no guns bias means the gunslinger should go.
The rogue. Not because I have rogue hate, but because I never see anyone play one who could instead play a ninja, archaeologist bard, detective bard, cryptbreaker alchemist... etc. So, might as well make it official. :D
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Dwarves, the dirty hairy drunkards! Oh wait, what class to remove. Well they already removed that a few editions ago from them!
I'd agree with gunslingers. Before playing one I didn't have any real issues with them. But playing one through skull and shackles I feel they are more than a bit overpowered at times. And I wasn't playing as effective as I could. So I'd agree with removing them.
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I'd remove multiclassing.
Hmm. Come to think of it, with all of the classes and archetypes out there that represent nearly any combination of the major class flavors, it does seem less and less necessary for preserving flavor. Once upon a time, someone wanting to play a Fighter/Wizard would have to actually multiclass Fighter and Wizard, but now they could play a Magus. If someone wants to play a Cleric/Rogue, there's the Inquisitor. For a Fighter/Rogue, they could be an Urban Ranger, or when the final form of the ACG classes are revealed, Slayer, Swashbuckler, etc, the list goes on.
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I'm learning a lot with this thread.
I love learning about the special "dips" that various classes make to turn their main class into a very powerful combo.
The biggest surprise so far is seeing the Summoner getting a big thumbs down. I'm playing a summoner with a serpentine Eidolon. With this build, it's built for stealth and grappling. I can see where some of the dislike is coming from and I didn't think much about the fact that the Summoner gets to avoid combat and lets his summoned creature(s) go to bat for him. I don't see this class as "broken" or overpowered though as a couple of others.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one of the opinion that the Gunslinger can be quite overpowering on a table. That class is built to be (what I would say is) overpowered from the get-go. As a player, a Gunslinger has saved our party's life once or thrice. More often, they just dominate the encounters and take away any real challenge. As a GM, I just have to roll my eyes in disbelief as they put multiple bullet holes in demons completely turning a challenging encounter into a farce. And, I'm also one of those old-school gamers who don't like seeing gunplay in the fantasy world. I have to scratch my head and wonder why Paizo didn't see this coming when they were play-testing the class before sanctioning it. With double barrels, dual wielding, hitting Touch AC...c'mon!
The other class that I've seen turn challenging encounters into a joke is the Magus. I think every Magus I've ever seen built is basically built the same way...same recipe....scimitar, dervish dancing, shocking grasp, intensify spell, blah...blah..blah. Then, they take out the BBEG in a single blow (sometimes it takes 2 blows). This is not an exaggeration. I've now witnessed it as a player and GM multiple times.
Yes, an optimized Barbarian or optimized "whatever" (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Archer) probably can do similar table wrecking like the above. The Gunslinger and Magus seem to be built for table-wrecking from the start.
Just my two coppers worth.
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I want to chime in that I.believe most Summoner(and psionics) hate is based off of people who cheated. Of course cheating characters look to good. They were cheating. As.time moves forward, more and more summoner(and psionic) players are implementing the rules correctly. It is hard for most haters to not constantly complain about what they saw when what they really saw was cheating but didn't even know it.
Summoners have mediocre hp/bab/weapons/spell casting with few per day. They also have mediocre saves with 2 poor categories and 1 strong attached to an ability of no special use to the class. Light armor and no shield means they have weak AC. The Summoner itself is rather fragile and not all that contributing.