Alot of this you get the hang of over time, any GM that ran much epic got used to this quick. Best advice I can give is to not make the enemies stand still, give the bad guys plans and have them spy, divine and such back. Don't let divination's and scrying work thru 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of lead. When casters can do that don't you think the rest of the world would actively work out ways to get around it.
Their also can be the political repercussions from basically nuking from orbit a city, going to evil imediuately could be possible for all that collateral damage. How would other leaders around the world react to this.
I don't know if you are running that game true to whats printed, or are home brewing anything. I would at minimum if you find your party OP go with the 6 man conversion or possibly just using that as a place to start.
YMMV, hope some of this may spark something
How did you manage to fool them with the Rushlight Treachery? They seem paranoid and resourceful enough they would've been able to see through it. If this isn't a one time occurrence, then layering more levels of deception might be an option. (They seem to have a lot of power to destroy things when challenged directly.)
My other observation is that they seem to burn through a lot of one-use resources whenever they pull one of their stunts. They also seem to be practicing a scorched earth policy, as they must've destroyed most of Pitax's wealth with that explosion. That makes me wonder, what could you do to hit them in the pocketbook?
Finally, since they've invented and dropped the first bomb, perhaps it's time for some escalation (perhaps the area goes all out into nuclear war?). If anybody else is able to discover the technique independently, or if they have any spies who can learn of how they did it, you might do the same to them. Any neutral/fence-riding parties will ally for or against them, as they've just effectively uped the ante literally overnight.
Finally, if you really wanted drastic change to come from it, I can see such a massive death have dread supernatural repercussions. Mass hauntings (or a single massive mass of ectoplasmic malevolence) might come out of it; the psychic resonance could also cause rifts to open, etc.
Just be careful to work to challenge more than punish them.
You could always have a nice man arrive from Brevoy and explain to them that using weapons of mass destruction on populated areas is considered a war-crime.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
the effect of the blast based on a scientific paper on meteorite impacts.
This is where you've messed up. You're letting your players bring REAL life into this game.
I think your problem is that you are letting your players run roughshod over the rules and doing things that aren't actually RAW or RAI. Tell your Oracle to put the calculator away, because there's no way his character can do these equations!
Look at "Falling Objects" to see how much fall damage that MM should have actually done. That thing should've done something like 12-20d6 of damage to Irovetti's mansion at best.
Frankly, I think you need to retcon this "bomb" out of the story, there's no rules which support its implementation. You could've at LEAST rolled a 1d100 with a 5% chance of actually landing on target, how could this guy possibly have made a direct hit without insane luck?
You also need to drastically cut down on whatever info these guys are getting from Divination spells - they are not suppose to be IWIN buttons that tell you everything you want to know, in fact, they should be vague as all hell. "You see Armagg...he's in a room, you don't know where this room is..."
And where is this party getting all this gold for scrolls from?
This is a fantastic question to ask, and a very important one. You have creative and innovative players and THAT IS A GOOD THING! The smarter your players are the better they're going to do regardless of what you throw at them and that shouldn't be a bad thing.
Pathfinder, and many other pen and paper games are a combination of three things. Critical thinking, Role Play, and the luck of the dice. The more your characters role play the more immersion there is. The more your players think critically, the better solutions they are going to have to the problems you throw at them. As their solutions get better the luck of the dice will matter less (though it will still play a role).
What you should NOT do is nerf the game UNLESS your players are making it difficult for everyone else to have fun (and you cant convince everyone else to step up their game). What CommandoDude Said:
the effect of the blast based on a scientific paper on meteorite impacts.This is where you've messed up. You're letting your players bring REAL life into this game.
I think your problem is that you are letting your players run roughshod over the rules and doing things that aren't actually RAW or RAI. Tell your Oracle to put the calculator away, because there's no way his character can do these equations!
has some point but in my opinion he's going a bit overboard. First of all bringing things that can happen in real life into your game isn't wrong. The entire point of the rules is to simulate real life with some degree of granularity (everything can't be exact). There are some limitations when they come in direct contradiction with rules or even RAI, but most often if you can think it and have the spells then you can make it happen!
Also your oracle maybe cant do those calculations but your wizard definitely can depending on his intelligence (if its over 18 definitely).
As others have said remember that scrying doesn't work through certain depths of material. That being said don't do the following:
You also need to drastically cut down on whatever info these guys are getting from Divination spells
If scrying says you get to observe your target, you observe them (scry specifically says you get full visual acuity and can hear within 10 ft of the target). If commune says you get a yes or no answer to questions then you get one. If a player is playing an intelligent character and being creative then they are playing the game correctly! (not to say an unintelligent character can't do this but it would need to be role played correctly)
I think one solution to your problem is give your players less time to think and give them more situations where they have to react on their toes. Anyone with a high intelligence is going to be able to come up with a great solution given long enough, just don't give them that time when you can help it.
If your players are hurting everyone else's ability to have fun and you arent getting the hang of handling their solutions, then ask them to ton it down. You may wan't to remind them that actions like the one's they are pulling off are going to attract attention in ways they may not be able to prepare for. If they acknowledge that and continue then just as they learn about their enemies, their enemies should learn about them, and plan specifically to attack their weaknesses.
Also as a side note, google is your friend! The terminal velocity of an object is usually far less than an impacting extraterrestrial object (its why they're on fire when they enter the atmosphere and a skydiver, when falling at terminal velocity, is not).
I am currently running Kingmaker right now as well, and am about half way through Blood for blood.
I've expanded the campaign greatly from what is written, and taken several of the option ideas that they scatter through it and expanded on those as well (like a Civil War breaking out in Brevoy with the PC's nation getting caught in the middle of the politics).
I've taken the areas where they mentioned Brevoy politics and expanded on those alot, making it largely the focus of the campaign now.
Pitax is hardly a worthy fight on it's own for the PCs...but the PCs are caught up into a Game of Thrones style war with a huge nearby kingdom on top of it all the stakes become all the much more higher.
If you want to compare notes shoot me a private message.
On to your PCs...alot of GMs seem to forget that the NPCs can be just as crafty as the characters can.
Someone above me also said that the terminal velocity of a large falling object is no where near as fast as an meteor of significant size and they are correct. Terminal Velocity is based on it's acceleration through atmosphere...a meteor has had many years to accelerate through space. They are moving much faster than their terminal velocity in the atmosphere.
That being said they could have filled the statue with some sort of explosive and still created a very large blast.
There are other consequences for that though...it sounds like they are a Lawful Evil nation, and they could create alot of enemies by acting out that sort of behavior.
From some of Brevoy's Houses as well as the Elves of Kyonin which are really close to Pitax.
If you are a powerful elf nation and you see someone drop a huge bomb on a kingdom right next door...I think you'd look into it...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
f scrying says you get to observe your target, you observe them (scry specifically says you get full visual acuity and can hear within 10 ft of the target). If commune says you get a yes or no answer to questions then you get one. If a player is playing an intelligent character and being creative then they are playing the game correctly! (not to say an unintelligent character can't do this but it would need to be role played correctly)
There is no reason for instance that any kind of Divination spell would tell you the exact distance and direction of someone else. The idea that these guys could accurately teleport a bunch of delayed fireballs right onto someone else is ludicrous.
From my experience in Kingmaker, when the pc's have a nuke the npc's can also have a nuke. A scroll of meteor swarm popped up in the magic mart so the party bought the scroll because you never knew when that might come in handy. We used it during the first time your country gets invaded and soon after every time we had a large scale battle we were met with messengers first. You don't use high level scrolls WE won't use high level scrolls. Basically we had to hash out the terms of war, and while it is supposed to be dirty and gritty, and mean we decided to play by our enemies rules and still stomped them into the dirt.
While casters are very powerful they often tend to miss mundane solutions to things. It might be worth having a spy in their court with very high bluff and stealth - I'd be moderately surprised if either character had through-the-roof Perception or Sense Motive. The Master Spy Prestige Class alse adds in a number of built-in mechanisms to fool or avoid magical detection and control as well.
It might be fun if their next OTT creative plan is slightly spoiled by this (their target is in another city, and their Scrying has been fooled) and you can trigger a mole hunt.
There is no reason for instance that any kind of Divination spell would tell you the exact distance and direction of someone else. The idea that these guys could accurately teleport a bunch of delayed fireballs right onto someone else is ludicrous.
f scrying says you get to observe your target, you observe them (scry specifically says you get full visual acuity and can hear within 10 ft of the target). If commune says you get a yes or no answer to questions then you get one. If a player is playing an intelligent character and being creative then they are playing the game correctly! (not to say an unintelligent character can't do this but it would need to be role played correctly)
If you read the teleport spell there is an entry specifically for scrying and your chances of successfully teleporting to locations seen only with scrying.
It might be fun if their next OTT creative plan is slightly spoiled by this (their target is in another city, and their Scrying has been fooled) and you can trigger a mole hunt.
"How could they have known our plans?!? It's like they can see the future!!!"
No matter how powerful these guys are, they have to share their plans with someone, or they're going to upset the local power structure. If these two are just throwing mananukes all over the place without informing the local helpful ruler, then they're going to find themselves surrounded by enemies -- enemies with Dispel Magic to get rid of all those secrecy spells -- and no sanctuary to run to.
So start by finding those someones, and getting them on your side. How? Bribery works well. So does blackmail. So does mind control.
Have the opposition start using social engineering to get details about the party's security. When the support structure doesn't even know it's been leaking information to the enemy, that's even better than using overt methods.
Spy networks. Use a druid or ranger -- and after that little stunt with the mananuke, there's going to be plenty of nature-lovers and balance guardians just aghast at what the wizard did (and the oracle approved). It doesn't take a high level druid to start using spells to see through the local songbirds eyes and hear through their ears. Or just using Awakened critters as spies...
Teleporting high into the atmosphere...
You can't do that. You need to be on a solid, or at least stable place when you land. You can't appear in mid air.
If you read the teleport spell there is an entry specifically for scrying and your chances of successfully teleporting to locations seen only with scrying.There is no reason for instance that any kind of Divination spell would tell you the exact distance and direction of someone else. The idea that these guys could accurately teleport a bunch of delayed fireballs right onto someone else is ludicrous.
f scrying says you get to observe your target, you observe them (scry specifically says you get full visual acuity and can hear within 10 ft of the target). If commune says you get a yes or no answer to questions then you get one. If a player is playing an intelligent character and being creative then they are playing the game correctly! (not to say an unintelligent character can't do this but it would need to be role played correctly)
Problem with teleport spell is that you have to go with the object being teleported. So, the caster died too when the delayed fireballs exploded.
I agree with the general sentiment that you are allowing players to run roughshod over the rules and not enforcing them properly. As pointed out, you need to retcon the "nuke". It was not within the rules by anty degree. It should have done far less damage if such a thing could be produced (look at falling object damage table) and teleportation does not allow you to teleport into the air. You must teleport onto a location which can support. Explain these things to your players, and tell them that due to the severe nature of these events you would like to retcon what happened.
If you read the teleport spell there is an entry specifically for scrying and your chances of successfully teleporting to locations seen only with scrying.There is no reason for instance that any kind of Divination spell would tell you the exact distance and direction of someone else. The idea that these guys could accurately teleport a bunch of delayed fireballs right onto someone else is ludicrous.
f scrying says you get to observe your target, you observe them (scry specifically says you get full visual acuity and can hear within 10 ft of the target). If commune says you get a yes or no answer to questions then you get one. If a player is playing an intelligent character and being creative then they are playing the game correctly! (not to say an unintelligent character can't do this but it would need to be role played correctly)Problem with teleport spell is that you have to go with the object being teleported. So, the caster died too when the delayed fireballs exploded.
I agree with the general sentiment that you are allowing players to run roughshod over the rules and not enforcing them properly. As pointed out, you need to retcon the "nuke". It was not within the rules by anty degree. It should have done far less damage if such a thing could be produced (look at falling object damage table) and teleportation does not allow you to teleport into the air. You must teleport onto a location which can support. Explain these things to your players, and tell them that due to the severe nature of these events you would like to retcon what happened.
Good point with the fireballs, he would have either had to quicken teleport out or leave himself a round to escape.
Just out of curiosity? where in the rules does it state that you have to teleport to a location that can support? I skimmed the spell and see no mention of it?
Under the rules for Conjuration spells, in the Magic Rules section:
Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Under the rules for Conjuration spells, in the Magic Rules section:
Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
I'm going out on a limb here and saying that if the guy can teleport chances are he can fly so, bad singular call on the GM's part but doesn't prevent the idea from working cause you know simpler methods.
Regards,
DRS
You are correct, that if the creature is capable of flight the creature could teleport up into the air.
But he could not have used Mage's Magnificent Mansion up there, and created the "Golden Rod of Doom". Which then should have only done a maximum of 20d6 damage. Not wiped out a city.
I think a lot of this needs a retcon, as mentioned earlier.
1. Teleporting into thin air, wrong.
2. Teleporting a bunch (8 !!) of Delayed Blast Fireball beads? Only if he went with them. Note - Teleport Object clearly stats you can't teleport magical forces - which is exactly what a DBF bead is. So, total fail on the rules there.
3. Originally mentioned 8 DBF's cast? How, with Time Stop? Max delay is 5 rounds. By the time Mr.Wizard is casting #6, the first one should be going off, right? Another fail on rules, it looks like to me. At least as described by the OP.
4. The major creation stuff - are you serious? Lets say 10 castings at max 20th level. You get 20 cubic feet per casting. That's 200 cubic feet of gold. Or, in practical terms, a 10x10 foot slab of gold only 2 feet high. Gold is 1204 lbs/cubic foot - so, you have a bomb of about 120 tons. Not bad. But, terminal velocity is far, FAR from the impact speeds of a meteor - which tend to begin at 11 km/s. That's PER SECOND. Terminal velocity is about 56 m/s, sayeth Wikipedia. I suggest you see the following website: http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/ I dropped a 3m Iron Bomb at orbital velocity of 11 km/s (your gold bomb is exponentially much, much slower) and put my distance from impact as 1 km. Guess what? Little seismic, air pressure nothing more than loud traffic, etc. Allowing this to nuke a city is ridiculous. You've now got a real world physics fails compounding the RAW fail.
I'll give your guys 10/10 for creativity, but 0/10 for actually satisfying RAW (we won't even talk about RAI). I don't think the "real world" calculations for your bomb are even remotely close to reality either.
However, I'd say that Gold Bomb would do major destructive damage to a castle - that would be entirely fair. I wouldn't want to be too close to it when it hit, either. Probably lots of flying stone shrapnel, etc. You could still pull that one off with some tweaks - for example, create those 200 cubic foot of gold on a Treasure Stitched item - then FLY above the castle and release the treasure. That might work just fine.
I also say to ignore falling object rules. If you can get something big enough and high enough, it simply will destroy it's landing site.
While casters are very powerful they often tend to miss mundane solutions to things. It might be worth having a spy in their court with very high bluff and stealth - I'd be moderately surprised if either character had through-the-roof Perception or Sense Motive. The Master Spy Prestige Class alse adds in a number of built-in mechanisms to fool or avoid magical detection and control as well.
Its actually pretty easy to have a caster, especially a wizard, with high Perception. Elves or half elves in particular are usually good at it, and they often have a familiar hanging around to roll another check, and an Alertness feat to help both of them.
You're right on the Sense Motive thing, though. Wisdom-dependent casters or monks are generally way better at that.
Be creative with the opposition fources.
Use misdirection
Wizard have undead cannon fodder/bound fources at their side.
gravity works both ways.
Did you have fun? Did they have fun? You going to remember this combat when you are slogging away at your job, and smile at what your friends came up with?
You just got a good memory, treasure it.
Sounds like you players have flair for the dramatic. My players just marched a army down main street and kicked the palace doors in. They cleared the place in no time, it was a breeze.
I'd suspect nuking Pitax would make annexing them quite a bit more difficult.
Regardless of the other stuff - allowing Delayed Blast Fireball beads to be Teleported via Teleport Object is not a good precedent to set.
Consider - Pathfinder is the evolution of the 3.0/3.5 rule set. If we want to consider precedent from the past, consider that DBF beads were actually named specifically as an example of a magical force that the spell cannot teleport (quick Google search found that for me). However, Pathfinder dropped that little example in their spell description. Let's consider that they 1) thought that it was self evident that DBF beads were clearly magical forces, having been created by a magic spell, and thus have no need for being singled out or 2) they really approve of DBF beads being teleported around. Possibly a 3) it was an oversight that this bit of text was omitted eg/ they made a mistake. I'll go with 1) or 3), frankly.
But, lets say you really like 2). That's ok - everyone's campaign can be whatever they want it to be, rule zero being what it is. So, for those creative players, consider this: Other high level wizards aren't dumb. The PC's shouldn't have been the first to figure this one out, and even if they were, they won't be the last (anything otherwise simply defies all logic). Ask your players how much they want to be on the receiving end of this Scry and Fry tactic. If you let it stand, let them have this instance of a freebie, but after that, word gets out and THEIR enemies might do the same to them, or their followers, or their structures/buildings, etc. They have a Kingdom, and that means loads of vulnerable targets that can be DBF'd and bombed out of existence just as easily.
When the players get cute with the rules, I always ask them - do you want my NPC's to use the same tactics on you? Because my NPC's will. Don't expect to get a free pass on logical repercussions of what you've just done. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
When the players get cute with the rules, I always ask them - do you want my NPC's to use the same tactics on you? Because my NPC's will. Don't expect to get a free pass on logical repercussions of what you've just done. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
Ah, the Gnetleman's Agreement™. It's an important clause that players often forget.
If you can do something, then so can the enemy. If you do this thing, the enemy can too, and do you really want to open that can of worms? Usually the answer is no (at least from my group) and on the few occasions the answer was yes, they knew the backlash was coming. It did not result in TPKs, but would result in...unpleasantness.
Honestly, retributive "nuclear" strikes from other (fearful) countries wouldn't be out of place. I mean your players destroyed a considerably part of another country. Anyone would be right to fear that and action against it.
Rather than look back with regrets, just inform the players "We've got to check our maths better in the future". We is an important word there.
Then I would suggests the ghosts of HiroshXXXXXXPitax begin to percolate, and that dire warning from Commune come, "Let not the ghosts wake the Sleeper"...
That Kaiju thing is very cool, but so is the ghost thing.
And you could have some NPC point out to the Oracle, the Kaiju is apparently immortal. :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are just as many high level, genius wizards out there as you can think of. I'm pretty sure some of them had relatives in Pitax, or lairs, or vaults of treasure, etc etc. Let alone the powerful creatures that work for Irovetti, some of them will have relatives who want vengeance.
It's obvious, thanks to the oracles prophesying that the players kingdom is to blame for the event so now all those wizards, monsters, etc are aimed directly at them either for revenge, because it's bad for business to let people kick you and get away with it, to find out how it was done so they can steal the power, etc.
Sure at the end of the day they got rid of one bad guy... and created a dozen or more equally if not more powerful and who they have NO idea where they are based (remember lead or stone stops scrying and all these high level enemies probably have anti scrying efforts in place), have fun throwing these at them and let them know it was because giant, flashy theatrics get peoples attention just as they wanted, just perhaps not *quite* the attention they were thinking of.
|
Just remember what is good for the goose is good for the gander. And the big N has had them outclassed since Book 1. If they complain and say why can't I do that, say its because if it were allowed you all would be dead by now. Let them think on that.
IMO the delayed blast fireball thing should have been a non-starter, not allowed. Because you said so as GM. If they argue, see above.
For the most part, up until Book 6,
Scry them, steal from them, steal their secrets, set traps for their tendencies, then set traps with a counter trap for when they realize they are figured out. Be absolutely diabolically clever, its appropriate this time.
Lastly, I think you should consider house ruling Commune. I specifically never allow one god to commune vs another. When the PCs try to use one god's commune against the servants of another, I either have the god plead the fifth and give them back their question use, or offer them a riddle they can figure out. God's narcing on each other's minions is sort of a silly thing. Gods narcing on wizards and rulers is probably a good day in their book :) A riddle is fair game in giving out info on another god I figure. Yes the spell isnt written this way, but it seems like it sorta should be.
This should allow you to offer info, let the PCs still be creative, and still stop the "IWIN" button effects.
If you want some ideas for a counter to this attack, have the faithful patriots of the One True Pitax (you can steal from Caprica freely) secretly start making plans to destroy the players through the reward they just received, all the lands of Pitax they can now annex. Drain the players own kingdom of resources needed in Pitax, weaken their armies, stretch them too thin with issues and problems, many of which can be created with spies, insurgents, and saboteurs. You could give them Milani as a patron and have her aiding them. I suggest having the magic fallout of the players "nuke" attack create a new type of metal that is resistant to divination magic. These patriots now freely use this metal to thwart the info gathering techniques of the PCs. Now the players have an "Iron Man 3" scenario, where they have created the enemy they now face. Now your PCs have some work to do to deal with this threat, especially if it is going on while Book 6 is.
Rather than look back with regrets, just inform the players "We've got to check our maths better in the future". We is an important word there.
Then I would suggests the ghosts of HiroshXXXXXXPitax begin to percolate, and that dire warning from Commune come, "Let not the ghosts wake the Sleeper"...
That Kaiju thing is very cool, but so is the ghost thing.
And you could have some NPC point out to the Oracle, the Kaiju is apparently immortal. :)
Greg Bear wrote the novel Psychlone that it very close to what you describe.
You may find it usefull
The game has rules for falling objects. Real life considerations should not have been used, although I understand the desire to do that.
Falling Objects
Table: Damage from Falling Objects
Object Size Damage
Small 2d6
Medium 3d6
Large 4d6
Huge 6d6
Gargantuan 8d6
Colossal 10d6
Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.
Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.
Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.
Let's assume the statue was Colossal, and was made of particularly dense material (the rules don't mention this, but if stone is the baseline, gold which is much denser than stone would probably do more damage), and was dropped from much higher than 150 feet.
Higher than 150 feet indicates double damage, and much higher could be houseruled to double it again. Very high density could also be ruled to double it further.
So 160d6 is a hell of a lot of damage, and impractical to roll, so you could assume the average, 560 damage to anything or anyone underneath the object when it hit. That's enough to kill everyone in the palace, if it hits the palace, and demolish the palace, but not enough to do a nuke-style explosion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will echo goose/gander arguments but add the following thoughts:
History suggests that things escalate quickly when a nation/state type entity expands its use of force.
Trading partners, diplomatic envoys, basic exchanges of goods and services between citizens will quickly falter. ESPECIALLY if there is not a bard or face to the party justifying these actions to the people. Tyranny and bloodshed rely on a weak or uninformed populace if theirs is neither they are looking at political and economic strife in a big way from within and without
No one nation *may* have casters of that skill but the like of Brevoy have money and political power. Red Mantis assassins exist for a reason. Cheliax and Andor may not get along but they will find common cause very quickly if they find out some not s$*+ northern border territory is stomping around dropping nukes on its neighbors. There are big players in Golarion and the AP assumes a certain amount of casual indifference from them because nothing escalates to a certain point but it certainly will if they are shaking things up that much.
To further expand on that there ARE casters and such that high in the world. Many of them are just as mercenary as your guys and if the realize it is open season in the hinterlands off Brevoy then a sudden infux of power players seems not only reasonable but likely.
Brass tacks:
1. If you and your players don't care about the RAW/RAI issues noted above then don't address them or keep a closer eye on them and let things be.
2. I believe in "reaction" not "retribution" from a game world. There is a living breathing world out there. Look at the Inner Sea primer and ask yourself how the average ruler in 100, 500 or 1000 mile radius might respond to this news. Russia responded to U.S. nukes in relatively short order by testing bigger weapons in very visible places. MAD exists as a military and political concept for a reason. It might take time but I think your players are about to make a lot of new enemies AND friends they never contemplated before.
3. You probably are done with the AP at this point. As written at the very least. Certain beats moving forward *might* happen but the narrative in those stories assume a certain level of mischief not something like this. I think you best contemplate considering how you can take what has been laid and looking with broader eyes at the world. Your players escalated things to another level so true challenges, at this point, will happen well outside what Kingmaker was originally calibrated to offer.
My 2cp.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*** Furiously takes notes for a future kingmaker game ***
3. You probably are done with the AP at this point. As written at the very least. Certain beats moving forward *might* happen but the narrative in those stories assume a certain level of mischief not something like this. I think you best contemplate considering how you can take what has been laid and looking with broader eyes at the world. Your players escalated things to another level so true challenges, at this point, will happen well outside what Kingmaker was originally calibrated to offer.
Oh I think the AP could still be a blast. But it will definitely have changed.
The big N is smart and powerful. Her erstwhile ally just got nuked, and she has to know that those sorts of things await her Bloom armies and her plans for the Stolen Lands. So, time to strike.
First, she ensures she's placed sleeper agents as "Joe Trooper" type guys in every PC army. Armed with a lead lined backpack and a 18th level Control Winds one shot item (Craft Wondrous) set to trigger instant Tornado. Those are really, really bad news - look up tornado under Environmental Effects.
Second, she places sleepers in every major town and city in the PC's Kingdom. Also equipped with the Control Winds nukes.
Then, she triggers her Blooms. PC's mobilize the armies which are promptly destroyed by the sleeper agents. The cities brace for catastrophe as the Bloom armies approach but then more Tornados wreck the cities. Loss of life will be massive. The Bloom armies then crash into the already mangled cities. The PC Kingdom is in shambles. They might counter nuke some Bloom armies, but it won't be enough - the Stolen Lands get stolen.
But, the AP continues. The PC's must rescue and restore their Kingdom and defeat the big N. Tell them all gloves are off - do what they can to end N and her armies of the First World. Let them run rampant. Try out their new and deadly ideas. It all happens off Golarion, which can be handy in a way. And maybe they end up winning too.
The Stolen Lands return to Golarion. Sure, they are a mangled wreck and the PC's get to retire and rebuild from the ruins. And Rulers near and far simply nod their heads sagely and say "THAT's why you don't go full retard with magical armageddon weaponry".
"The purpose of their lives was to serve as a warning to others..." can be on the monuments commemorating the PC's...
3. You probably are done with the AP at this point. As written at the very least. Certain beats moving forward *might* happen but the narrative in those stories assume a certain level of mischief not something like this. I think you best contemplate considering how you can take what has been laid and looking with broader eyes at the world. Your players escalated things to another level so true challenges, at this point, will happen well outside what Kingmaker was originally calibrated to offer.
Oh I think the AP could still be a blast. But it will definitely have changed.
The big N is smart and powerful. Her erstwhile ally just got nuked, and she has to know that those sorts of things await her Bloom armies and her plans for the Stolen Lands. So, time to strike.
First, she ensures she's placed sleeper agents as "Joe Trooper" type guys in every PC army. Armed with a lead lined backpack and a 18th level Control Winds one shot item (Craft Wondrous) set to trigger instant Tornado. Those are really, really bad news - look up tornado under Environmental Effects.
Second, she places sleepers in every major town and city in the PC's Kingdom. Also equipped with the Control Winds nukes.
Then, she triggers her Blooms. PC's mobilize the armies which are promptly destroyed by the sleeper agents. The cities brace for catastrophe as the Bloom armies approach but then more Tornados wreck the cities. Loss of life will be massive. The Bloom armies then crash into the already mangled cities. The PC Kingdom is in shambles. They might counter nuke some Bloom armies, but it won't be enough - the Stolen Lands get stolen.
But, the AP continues. The PC's must rescue and restore their Kingdom and defeat the big N. Tell them all gloves are off - do what they can to end N and her armies of the First World. Let them run rampant. Try out their new and deadly ideas. It all happens off Golarion, which can be handy in a way. And maybe they end up winning too.
The...
Right I think big chunks can survive I guess in my mind what changes is that the Bid Bad's plan is basically in scope to what the players arguably accomplished? the big bad's plan doesn't disrupt the world per se and the characters are meant to finish them off before anyone else would really notice. There is now time between her narrative beat and what they did so I think the politics would get more convoluted and complicated much faster.
In my view the AP no longer is self contained and it would make sense that adjustments would need to be made in a relatively large way to make "sense" to me as far as how a world responds to giant falling gold rock nukes or whatever.
Not bad, in fact it sounds quite fun. Just different.
More interesting replies, thank you everyone!
While casters are very powerful they often tend to miss mundane solutions to things. It might be worth having a spy in their court with very high bluff and stealth - I'd be moderately surprised if either character had through-the-roof Perception or Sense Motive. The Master Spy Prestige Class alse adds in a number of built-in mechanisms to fool or avoid magical detection and control as well.
It might be fun if their next OTT creative plan is slightly spoiled by this (their target is in another city, and their Scrying has been fooled) and you can trigger a mole hunt.
This is a good idea - although the characters are both paranoid and cautious, this could probably be interesting for them.
Hmm, you could always use that paranoia against them, such as setting up alienation from their genuine allies. The misdirection spell, for example is not restricted to oneself, but can be cast on other people. False vision's a good counter to the scrying. A potential spy could endear himself to the characters by feeding their paranoia against other parties. And just for completeness sake, perhaps the spy will make gestures to "prove" his loyalty and honesty but secretly he has ways around them.
Although you've said your wizard's not evil, his love for politics makes me think his M.O. might fall into at least a few of the evil overlord tropes. This allows for big overcomplicated plots that can be dismantled at the last minute by a idiot hero/spanner or other wild card in the works. Pay attention to these random little tidbits, perhaps some fun random tables might be good to make up for the future?
The oracle's fear of death distracted him. If this is indicative of a pattern, this would suggest his nerves aren't quite as strong as the wizards. Has this ever caused them to disagree/come into conflict with each other?
If your oracle likes making his "prophecies" come true, I wonder how he would react to visions of his demise? Perhaps someone cryptically visiting him in his dreams (perhaps disguised?) might rattle him a bit? (Then again, Commune might kill this tactic- you'll have to be careful with it.)
Finally, regarding their arrogance, I think astute enemies would try to use that to their advantage by appearing meek or even comical to the characters. Humor is an often unrecognized but still very valuable weapon as long as you don't overplay your hand.
Here's a suggestion - this approach will foreshadow some of the threats in Book 6 (spoilers below).
You could rule that the explosion was so powerful that some of the energy went "sideways" and temporarily weakened the border to the First World in the vicinity of Pitax City. Nyrissa noticed and took the opportunity to test out some mini-blooms on a localised area.
On the first day after the blast, mad treants, assassin vines and various nasty fey appear randomly in the remaining streets of Pitax City. On day 2, people start showing symptoms of blinding sickness and plague. On day 3, the entire city vanishes completely, to be replaced by a wasteland of black sand and a few ethereal ruins. Nyrissa now has a small bottle labelled "Pitax City" on a shelf. The survivors who fled the city just in time will have some interesting stories to tell, and these events could possibly raise some concerns among your players ...
(Nyrissa may then decide to send the Wriggling Man into the Stolen Lands to experiment with other creative ways of weakening the borders.)
I am not familiar with Kingmaker specifically, however I have been in other campaigns (some high level) with similar issues.
Some common things.
Possibly too much info from the divination spells. I don't know about your case, but often the GM let's these be too reliable. The target never fails a save, never has any defenses in place, never makes a perception check, PC's can apparently read lips, people wearing name tags, no one in disguise, no magical counters. The teleport always works perfectly even without knowledge and no one ever has a spell to stop the teleport. What legend ever has the gods give clear, concise, useful answers to every single question? I'm not saying to nerf them. But make sure you play up the legitimate problems. Where is he? Might get "In a dining room." Not necessarily "In the dinning room of his cousins 2nd guest house over on market street." Eventually the higher powers might get tired of being interrupted with questions all the time and see how unhelpful they can be just to make it stop.
The gold nuke. If high enough to do that much damage, a hit is nearly impossible without some sort of magic guidance. Try it sometime. Stand up on a second story roof and try and drop a marble into a bucket. It is actually very difficult. And you are talking about orders of magnitude higher up than that. Yes, he is intelligent. That doesn't mean he knows what the air currents at every altitude are doing. That anyone has studied (let alone him having the info on) the effects of friction coefficients, rotational vs. translational inertia, air resistance, planetary rotation, atmospheric heating, etc... Think back to WWII high altitude bombing. They were lucky to hit large cities when dropping thousands of bombs. You are again talking about a much higher altitude than that. It is really NOT trivial to hit a target with a free fall object. Like maybe 1% chance maximum.
Even if you allow it, there need to be consequences for destroying a city. I would think every single noble, nation, and important person in the area would say, "Ok those guys are out of control and a threat to all of us. Contract the mantis assassins to remove that threat. Then set up a council of princes. I hate those guys, but we have to cooperate to take these people out of the picture before they destabilize the entire region."
Intelligent enemies (or at least they can high someone intelligent). By now they have to be getting relatively famous for what they do. The opposition should be having council sessions in deep dark stone caverns, behind lead sheets, discussing from within deeper darkness, using one pass codes, counter scry-n-fry, mind shielding, accompanied by a high perception guard, contingent teleport activating on an incoming teleport, dimensional anchor, etc...
The bad guys should have bards and rogues fomenting rebellion in the PC's kingdom.
What happened when the Soviet Union became too dangerous and threatening? Nearly everyone else in the world banned together to oppose them.
Maybe the Council of Kings will blockade them and demand they make reparations for the city they destroyed. Maybe all their current allies will disavow them. Maybe the citizens within their own country will be horrified by being a party to what they have done and all the people they murdered, sending the church leaders to demand the exile of the Spymaster and penance of the King that allowed it to happen.
There are reasons countries even as powerful as Russia didn't start throwing nukes around. The consequences would have been too severe. Impose those consequences.
A party of heroes including paladins might just try to remove those evil PC's from the world.
I actually like creative players! BUT you have to impose realistic limitations and consequences for their actions. Part of being creative should be including those limitations and results in their thinking.
Should have given snatch arrows to pitax:(