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He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.
Assuming the fighter is poorly build and unsupported by the rest of party, probably.
Assuming the fighter is optimized and plays with a team, no.
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I’m gonna disagree with the masses a little bit.
There are many potential issues with the summoner. There are some nice lists at the beginning of the thread to show them. However, I don’t think any of them are as big or insurmountable as many seem to think they are.
Yes, you might be able to make a buzz saw eidolon that does more damage than a fighter. But then it usually seems to be very fragile with low HP, AC, and/or saves.
Yes, they can potentially make items very cheap. But if they take a bunch of item creation feats they aren’t taking all the other ones that contribute to those monster builds
Yes, they can really bog down a table. But a very responsible and organized player can mitigate that and often take less time than many other players with simple standard builds.
Yes, they are easy to make mistakes. Care and auditing can resolve those.
Etc…
Also, I will point out that many GM’s have banned them without any trial, analysis, or thought. They read on these forums that it is overpowered, so it is gone. I don’t know about you, but I disagree with some things I find on these forums on a regular basis. So I would suggest anyone give it a try before just saying no. Depending upon your group, campaign, GM, and player; you may find that it isn’t actually a problem in your circumstance.
Yet there are a lot of these potential issues. Together they often add up into a lot of headaches for the player of the summoner, other players at the table, and especially the GM.
These issues are exacerbated by an inexperienced or less rules savvy player. Unfortunately, that seems to be the players most drawn to the summoner class. The summoner class (especially the fluff) sound just ideal to those of us who read certain novels or watch specific movies. Veteran PF players know you generally can not duplicate novel/movie characters in this game. People new to the system generally do not know that and their attempts to duplicate those concepts are usually not pleasant to watch.
For Example:
There is a guy at our local PFS who played his first PFS fighter character up to level 3 then decided he wanted magic. He had just bought the APG and absolutely fell in love with the summoner since it was just exactly like ‘X’ from some movie ‘Y’ that he was enthused about.
He constantly gets skill points and evolution points confused. Doesn’t understand how grab, pounce, and trip work. We constantly have to tell him, “it doesn’t work like that.” Does not have print offs of the monsters he can summon. Doesn’t know what they can or can not do. Always takes an exceptionally long time to decide on and take his actions every round. Every time he advances in level, some GM has to spend some time auditing and reworking his eidolon because it is always wrong. Etc…
Any one of those issues with a relatively new player is understandable and we have no problem working with him to bring him up to speed. But all of them together can really grind a table to a standstill. Some of the shorter scenarios have gone way over time with him sitting at the table.
Yes, this is very obviously just one incidence. But at our local, he has kinda become the poster child for the problems that can happen with a summoner. But again, that is ‘can happen’ not ‘will happen.’ They work just fine with some players in some groups.
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The AC, attack bonus, double hp on synthesist things aren't huge problems unless you're running APs or Modules. You just have to abandon the idea that the CR or ECL system are anything but guidelines.
However!
The primary issue is action economy.
A non-master summoner can pull in something like 4 huge earth elementals by level 12-13 or so on a regular basis, or bralani azatas, or lantern archons. This means all of a sudden the enemies (who usually start out outnumbered to begin with) now have other problems to deal with.
Also most summon monster spells are balanced for the summon being around for seconds (6 second rounds) as opposed to minutes.
Summoners, like undead controlling necromancers, also function as a bit of what I'd like to call a 'DM screw you' as far as the fact their various little mobs count as features of their class as opposed to individual monsters.
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My tier 2 mythic level 10 26-point-buy fighter has 27 AC, +19 to-hit when power attacking and does 2d6+27 damage (34).You comparing "apples with pears".
The eidolon got this stats even if you play 15 pt.-buy, also it doesn't have any mythic tiers.To create a comparable character you have to use 20 pt.-buy (standard for Pathfinder) and no mythic.
Also the eidolon in my example has no feats and is far from optimized.So level 10 fighter would be around:
BAB 10 Str. 18 +2(level up)+4 Belt = 24 / +7
Dex ~ 14 + Fullplate (10) + Ring of protection +3 => AC 25AC 25
Attack: +20/15 (+2 training, +1 Focus, +2 Weapon)
Damage: 3d6+14 (+2 from weapon training +2 Specialisation)Without PA etc. (like the Eidolon), and he don't have the ability to attack and in the same round cast a spell (like the eidolon/summoner has)
Sure it's a little weaker on the "on hit" side, but has more attacks and the most important part of it: you get an additional full-attack.
Start by getting rid of that ring of protection +3
For the same price: ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, dusty rose ioun stone +1, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, +2 enhancement bonus to armor. AC = 29
You forgot weapon training, weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, etc. Those class abilities, including bonus feats, add up.
Real easy to Class A is overpowered compared to Class B when you make far poorer build decisions on Class B.
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Or Breath of Life
Or Ultimate MercyNeither of which require an expensive component.
I'm sorry, you mean Breath of Life, which gives you one whole round to get it off or else? And which also not be enough to bring said party member back? Yeah, that one is going in the "inconvenient drawbacks" list.
Or Ultimate Mercy, which requires a mid/high level Paladin and either the exact same material component as Raise Dead or an extra negative level (that stays on for 24 hours, no matter what) for said Paladin? So, expensive components or drawback, and even if you go the components route, you still need some Restorations.Are you seriously stating those options are comparable to Summon Eidolon (a 2nd-level spell), Purified Calling (a 4th-level spell), or just plain and simply using your other class features for a bit (namedly, the Summon Monster SLA)?
Those options but a player back on their feat as a standard action. Unlike your summoner, who has to hope nobody targets him during that full round casting time.
They also don't expire a few minutes later, unlike Summon Eidolon.
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What is this I don't even
My options mean there was never a player on the ground to begin with, who bit the dust was just a class feature.
Should we target the guy with the glowing symbol on his head instead of the eidolon?
We can compare full player builds, including WBL allocation. until then it's all just Schrodinger's.
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Again, I offer anecdotal stuff (so take that with the salt shaker it deserves), but I've never seen a huge problem with the summoners. The designers thankfully gave them two bad saves meaning they often fall prey to blast attacks and clouds and poisons and a host of nasty crap, stuff which even bypasses the synth's wall of hit points at times.
I again state their primary problem is not power levels, or builds, but action economy. The summoner can go something like six times in a round with a host of creatures most monsters just weren't built to deal with, and can keep those creatures around for minutes instead of rounds. Minutes are an eternity.
The eidolon is fine and dandy, but calling in 5 augmented bralani azatas, or multiple lillends, or a full complement of augmented lantern archons, or celestial aurochs or dinosaurs tends to really play the dog's breakfast with most enemy NPCs or monsters, especially when he has control over how they move (most good summoners pick up a lot of linguistics), and can direct them around the field.
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I have found that a PC tank can beat a Eidolon, but it's darn close.
But a eidolon can beat a animal companion just about every time.
Showing builds won't prove anything unless you can show every possible combo.
Comparing melee to anything caster is going to get nitpicked and 'hah, told you so' to death. You should totally compare the summoner to a wizard or cleric build.
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Fine. Stat out your 10th level Fighter, normal WBL. Also write down his teammates, we'll just assume same party composition, just replacing Fighter with the Summoner.
EDIT: And make sure your Fighter is able to contribute in more situations than, well, fighting. One-trick ponies are neat, but largely irrelevant to the discussion.
I don't do one-trick ponies.
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I have found that a PC tank can beat a Eidolon, but it's darn close.
But a eidolon can beat a animal companion just about every time.
Showing builds won't prove anything unless you can show every possible combo.
I'm with DD on this one. The Eidolon is so close to a full PC tank that the difference is largely negligible. And we really don't need 15 pages of "Here's my build" "Here's my build that does X way better" "Well I'll just swap Y for Z and now I do X better" "Well, I'll throw in A to lower...." so on and so forth.
For me, the point is that you can play that game where the Eidolon goes toe to toe with an actual freaking PC class and it's just a class feature. Combined with a powerful full caster with 3/4 BAB and light armor proficiency, you just get way more out of the class than you do any class that's not a full caster, and for most players, they'll get far more out of the Summoner than even a Wizard since the system mastery threshold is so much lower and the Summoner is essentially pre-optimized as a conjuration/control specialist.
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Comparing melee to anything caster is going to get nitpicked and 'hah, told you so' to death. You should totally compare the summoner to a wizard or cleric build.
What it gets me is a long list of: that does not count. Every single legal option that goes against the other person's preconceptions inevitably winds up being dismissed. Including options from the core rule book they don't agree with.
I've had this argument with a half dozen classes. This is what always happens.
Summoners are more buff specialists than anything. Sure, they get black tentacles and some pit spells but they don't really have many options ouside of that.
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Very well, then. Still waiting.I don't do one-trick ponies.Fine. Stat out your 10th level Fighter, normal WBL. Also write down his teammates, we'll just assume same party composition, just replacing Fighter with the Summoner.
EDIT: And make sure your Fighter is able to contribute in more situations than, well, fighting. One-trick ponies are neat, but largely irrelevant to the discussion.
I will post my builds, but cannot generate a full party build while at work. It will be this evening before I have access to my full set of pre-built characters.
I'm with DD on this one. The Eidolon is so close to a full PC tank that the difference is largely negligible. And we really don't need 15 pages of "Here's my build" "Here's my build that does X way better" "Well I'll just swap Y for Z and now I do X better" "Well, I'll throw in A to lower...." so on and so forth.I have found that a PC tank can beat a Eidolon, but it's darn close.
But a eidolon can beat a animal companion just about every time.
Showing builds won't prove anything unless you can show every possible combo.
Yeah, any time builds start coming out it in class comparison discussion, it quickly derails into a big long debate on every single petty detail of the builds in question instead of the original topic.
Very well, then. Still waiting.I don't do one-trick ponies.Fine. Stat out your 10th level Fighter, normal WBL. Also write down his teammates, we'll just assume same party composition, just replacing Fighter with the Summoner.
EDIT: And make sure your Fighter is able to contribute in more situations than, well, fighting. One-trick ponies are neat, but largely irrelevant to the discussion.
I will post my builds, but cannot generate a full party build while at work. It will be this evening before I have access to my full set of pre-built characters.
** spoiler omitted **
Ok, guys, maybe start another thread? Because many of us are not interested in "warring builds" since they prove nothing.
please?
His added advantages are 2 mythic tiers, 26 point buy, and being slightly overgeared.
The naked biped (under-optimized) Eidolon on the last page already puts this ACTUAL fighter to shame (one that I have fun with in an actual campaign).
Imagine the eidolon compared to a naked 15 point buy non-mythic fighter (like the summoner is in this case) and the gap gets even wider.
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Mostly because of what a summoner is means it'll be broken as hell in games. The only games that I know of that a summoner character wasn't completely broken is Final Fantasy, where the summon was indistinguishable from a spell, or the summon replaced the whole party.
It is a caster (full casting or not, a caster is a caster) who gets a fully customizable second character as a class feature. Action economy alone will break badly made encounters (which sadly most PFS encounters are).
The fact the synthisist which is not as powerful as the base summoner got banned will always make me laugh.
The fact the synthisist which is not as powerful as the base summoner got banned will always make me laugh.
It's more broken. The hidden AC synergies (that shield bonus...) are ridiculous and the stat dumping leads to insanely high saves.
No item slot limitation further increase both defense and offense.
You end up with a monster that fights more like a dragon than a PC.
... The fact the synthisist which is not as powerful as the base summoner got banned will always make me laugh.
The synthesis didn't get banned because it was too powerful. It got the nix because it was almost always made incorrectly and/or the rules were unclear enough that someone thought it was build incorrectly. Consequently many tables devolved into arguments over what was or wasn't allowable and how it worked.
Confusion not power killed the synthesis in PFS.
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... The fact the synthisist which is not as powerful as the base summoner got banned will always make me laugh.The synthesis didn't get banned because it was too powerful. It got the nix because it was almost always made incorrectly and/or the rules were unclear enough that someone thought it was build incorrectly. Consequently many tables devolved into arguments over what was or wasn't allowable and how it worked.
Confusion not power killed the synthesis in PFS.
Yeah, after about the 800th report of a table losing 15+ minutes of play time while the GM and player shuffled through 6 pages of FAQs and reviewed whether he could easily differentiate his core character from his "girded" character, etc. it was just decided that it was too much hassle at the table for organized play. Whether or not it was too powerful was largely incidental to the end result.
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His added advantages are 2 mythic tiers, 26 point buy, and being slightly overgeared.
The naked biped (under-optimized) Eidolon on the last page already puts this ACTUAL fighter to shame (one that I have fun with in an actual campaign).
Imagine the eidolon compared to a naked 15 point buy non-mythic fighter (like the summoner is in this case) and the gap gets even wider.
Prebuild tank I have available:
Jorn Duersten beats that without mythic.
Mythic Jorn for comparison.
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You end up with a monster that fights more like a dragon than a PC.
Which a base Eidolon already does, and really thats the point of the class. the synthisist gives up the summoners greatest streagth, ungodly amounts of action economy, for the ablity to be a totemist or Armor of the X-men. It is a strict downgrade.
confusion at the table I'll believe, though it still makes me laugh for different reasons.
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I have been noticing a little on here some Summoner-bashing. Particularly from one of the Pathfinder designers. What I don't get is why? Can someone give me an in-depth list of reasons why? I have yet to see what the issue is on them?
So Imagine a class that like the druid, the ranger and the wizard/sorcerer get an animal companion. But unlike these classes the Summoner can customize his monster to completely blow out of the water most creatures of the same CR.
Let's also give that class the ability to summon monsters as a standard action, you know in case his demi-god beast fails a saving throw or something and ALSO let's make sure these summon can stay for 1 MINUTE per level.
On top of that let's make sure that the demi-elf a race that is immune to magic sleep get a specific level up option to get more evolution points thus making you immune to one way to shutdown your monster really quickly and giving you even more way to make it over the top. Let's make sure to create a feat that allow you to get more of these evolution point and that unlike most "extra" feat this one gives a permanent and constant bonus, we are not talking about 4 extra round of rage here.
Now let's give that class only 6 spells levels but unlike the magus he will be able to cast spells from the wizard/sorcerer list at lower spell level (destroying the previous magic item economy in the process) and allow a few classes such as the pathfinder savant to cast haste using wizard level 2 spells slots and incendiary cloud. Basically making level 8 spells into level 6 spells slots.
Now let us create a bunch of archetypes that EXPLODE any other archetypes in the system, one that make in sort that you will be walking with a veritable zoo of creatures around at all time and one that transform you into a power ranger on crack. That second option is the synthesis summoner, arguably one of the most monstrous and insane class in the system. A class that is better at feral combat than a shape shifter druid, can get abilities on the fly like.....well fly, by casting a single level 2 spell to get more temporary evolution points.
Basically this class is the "I win button" of pathfinder, dip 2 level in paladin to be able to smite evil and have ridiculous saving throws because you are a CHA based caster.
So the shortlist:
-This class summon better than a conjuration focused wizard
-Is one of the best skill monkey in the system via the eidolon
-Can adapt his strategy to almost any situation short of an antimagic field
-Can become arguably one of the best melee character in the system
-Has EXTREME survivability
-Is extremely non dependent on anyone in your team
-Can fill any role in a party better than almost every class in the system because of extremely powerful and macro specialized archetypes.
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I have been noticing a little on here some Summoner-bashing. Particularly from one of the Pathfinder designers. What I don't get is why? Can someone give me an in-depth list of reasons why? I have yet to see what the issue is on them?Not one bloody thing.
I don't bash them. I like them.
That being said, the headache they create is action economy.
Yeah a mage can make shield guardians after investing a lot of feats and spending about an entire year on crafting duty. Or have a familiar. And rangers can have animal companions.
The summoner can have the eidolon, so what?
The so what is that the summon monster ability is damn sight more useful at times then the eidolon.
Lets put aside the 'Be a Neutral to enhance your mechanics' mathfinder nonsense on a summoner and assume he only brings in goodies.
Also keep in mind that its 1d3 for lower tier sm, and 1d4+1 creatures for two tiers lower.
I'm a 11th level summoner so.. I get a pretty beefy daily allotment of Summon Monster VI that lasts for 11 minutes (and if I'm smart I have augmented summoning) so they're all bigger and beefier (and thats just my ability based summoning) which I can do as a /standard action/.
So...if I wanted to, I could pull in a lillend for the healing/mobility or an insta-bard or to speak with animals, or make some freaking hallucinatory terrain.
I could also call in instead, 1d3 large elementals (of various flavors).
Maybe 2-5 giant celestial scorpions? 1-3 /bralani/ azatas each packing keen good aligned weapons and lightning bolts?
And thanks to my augmented summoning, each of these summons is another big pile of hit points that I can use to bolster my group's numbers. And if I took summon monster or summon eidolon as a spell, I can summon those in too.
Since my daily summon monsters are standards though and my creatures expressly get to act as soon as they hit the floor, I get to call them in, position them right in the thick of it, and unleash pain immediately on my foes. And if you're anything fiendish, having a bralani suddenly appear in your face with a full attack action cooking is not going to be fun.
And then you, as the foe have to either 1.) Ignore the summons, 2.) Deal with them while the party beats the crap out of you (PC Summoners usually have 3-5 buddies who they didn't summon).
And on the next turn, the summons keep right on doing their thing, leaving the summoner to say..dimension door his allies into full attack, or haste everyone (his summons included) or generally be a pain in the butt.
The summoner create action efficiency for his team. Just the fact that he can still punch you (up to five times!) through summons while also ferrying martials around the board like a dimensional taxi service works into that.
And keep in mind, augment summoning lets summons punch a bit above their weight class as well. Thats +4 str and +4 con, meaning at least a +2 on their to-hits just by virtue of being summoned in by the guy.
Again.
Nothing wrong with this.
But this is the real major issue people really have with summoners, not the mathfinder nineteen armed eidolons.
Synths are actually weaker then normal summoners at higher levels because a 15th level synthesist can't do the standard summoning of say...5 augmented Huge Earth Elementals (never summon Elders), without losing his 'coat.'
You end up with a monster that fights more like a dragon than a PC.Which a base Eidolon already does, and really thats the point of the class. the synthisist gives up the summoners greatest streagth, ungodly amounts of action economy, for the ablity to be a totemist or Armor of the X-men. It is a strict downgrade.
confusion at the table I'll believe, though it still makes me laugh for different reasons.
Not when you consider how much you have increased the survivability of the summoner.
You can make the most twinked out eidolon ever, but if no items are thrown the summoners way, then the summoner is an easy target for killing the eidolon.
The existence of two bodies sharing item slots does wonders to balance out the class. Half your actions is a cheap price to pay for the stat boost, the more than doubling of your effective HP, and removing that one weakness. Especially when you consider that the summoner's limited slots means they really shouldn't be casting spells every round anyways.
The dragon comparison is not far off. If a dragon with CR = APL shouldn't be in the party than neither should a synthesist.
But this is the real major issue people really have with summoners, not the mathfinder nineteen armed eidolons.
That is easily my new favorite theorycraft bash.
My complaints are based on actual play at both high and low levels. The synthesist is not fun to play with(might be fun to play as), while a quickly ran master summoner can be strong, it's not unfun to play with.
A master summoner is basically just another fullcaster when all is said and done. A synthesist is like playing with an appropriate CR encounter on your side.
Do people not realize the spells Dismissal and Banishment exist? And that like... msot every mid- to high level outsider has them...
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Especially when you consider that the summoner's limited slots means they really shouldn't be casting spells every round anyways.
The thing is, the Summoner's Eidolon is just the super-powered gravy on an incredibly potent class chassis. The Eidolon is what elevates the Summoner beyond a really specialized sorcerer archetype and into its own class. You can remove the Eidolon completely while making no other changes to the class and still have an extremely powerful full casting conjurer who's competitive with any other class in the game. If anything, the Summoner is almost like a boss fight in a Final Fantasy game; that Eidolon that you think is all hardcore is actually just his first form, and it's when that goes down that s&~* suddenly gets decidedly real.
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But this is the real major issue people really have with summoners, not the mathfinder nineteen armed eidolons.That is easily my new favorite theorycraft bash.
My complaints are based on actual play at both high and low levels. The synthesist is not fun to play with(might be fun to play as), while a quickly ran master summoner can be strong, it's not unfun to play with.
A master summoner is basically just another fullcaster when all is said and done. A synthesist is like playing with an appropriate CR encounter on your side.
Hey, at least "mathfinder" sounds better then 'theorycraft.' :)
My observations are similarly based, two games, 6 players in one, 7 in the other, synth in one, "normal" summoner in the other.
The 14th level summoner almost never pulls out his eidolon anymore, relying on summons (usually from two tiers down on SM).
The 5th level synth tends to fall prey constantly to save effects that bypass his AC and his HP. He also encounters trouble insofar as he can't be healed easy, meaing his daily spells get devoured by repairing his eidolon (even if his chewy nougat center goes uninjured 8 out of 10 times).
Do people not realize the spells Dismissal and Banishment exist? And that like... msot every mid- to high level outsider has them...
Guess what the Eidolon recommended form and Summoners best save is?
And even if you do fail the save, they just resummon their eidolon instantly with a 2nd level spell slot.
But this is the real major issue people really have with summoners, not the mathfinder nineteen armed eidolons.That is easily my new favorite theorycraft bash.
My complaints are based on actual play at both high and low levels. The synthesist is not fun to play with(might be fun to play as), while a quickly ran master summoner can be strong, it's not unfun to play with.
A master summoner is basically just another fullcaster when all is said and done. A synthesist is like playing with an appropriate CR encounter on your side.
Hey, at least "mathfinder" sounds better then 'theorycraft.' :)
My observations are similarly based, two games, 6 players in one, 7 in the other, synth in one, "normal" summoner in the other.
The 14th level summoner almost never pulls out his eidolon anymore, relying on summons (usually from two tiers down on SM).
The 5th level synth tends to fall prey constantly to save effects that bypass his AC and his HP. He also encounters trouble insofar as he can't be healed easy, meaing his daily spells get devoured by repairing his eidolon (even if his chewy nougat center goes uninjured 8 out of 10 times).
Unfortunately by like 14th level caster vs martial issues become serious enough in the optimized mentality that summoning 1 better-than-fighter is generally not as useful as one buffed up spell of make castable level (the SLA).
A synthesist with poor will or fort is a rarity. They also have energy resistance and protection from energy. So anything that you are throwing at the party that may significantly effect the synthesist should be killing the rest of the party and then the synthesist. Idk about you, but monsters meta-gaming the focus of their attention to best keep the party alive pulls me right out of an experience, and only shows that the class has disbalancing issues.
Do people not realize the spells Dismissal and Banishment exist? And that like... msot every mid- to high level outsider has them...Guess what the Eidolon recommended form and Summoners best save is?
And even if you do fail the save, they just resummon their eidolon instantly with a 2nd level spell slot.
It's quad actually(you know for pounce). Which does have a poor will save. Furthermore only the summoner or the eidolon can have a cloak of resistance.