I make sure to hand out some kind of headgear to party members when I play a Summoner. Usually just a headband. And since my summoner can wear light armor without provoking ASF, the monsters will focus on that dastardly Wizard.
|
Usually, I'm a stalwart defender of everything paizo and there designs. This time I have to agree that the summoner is somewhat unfair to other players.
I'm playing one at the moment. Brought him in to replace my fighter who actually managed to get killed by a fantasmal killer. Turns out low rolls will beat good defences every time.
Any way, I took a stock standard summoner and used hero labs to build him and his eidolon to make sure everything was legal.
I've noticed that my eidolon has effectively become the tank. It's easier to damage, doesn't have the same AC nor the damage reduction my fighter had, but it is easier to fix and replace without relying on other players to do it.
Instead of spending feats to get what I wanted for the eidolon, I spent evolution points. He does obscene damage, far outpacing my fighter ( who was built to tank rather than damage). What's more, I can change the way it's built every time I level up. You can't do that with feats.
I find that the eidolon is far more the character than the summoner itself. It's on only the fact that insure I roleplay the hell out of my summoner that he gets the attention, because in combat situations it's all beast. ( which is the name of my eidolon).
Summoner also has d8 hit die, good armour if necessary and a spell list built mostly for buffing and combat control. It's a powerful caster in its own right and is great as a tag along for any party to make them stronger.
This is the first class I've playerd where I'm actively playing down my power for other players to get some time in the sunlight. Even the dreaded wizard that everyone espouses about on these boards isn't an issue in our games because were all experienced with them and what weaknesses they have so they can be controlled without the need of the player toning things down.
My feeling, without over analysing it all, is that the summoner class got a little too many pluses and not enough negatives to balance it. It's quite good as a class to replace a tank if needed, but comes with an attached caster that outpaces a cohort in terms of what it can do, and you don't have to spend a feat to get it.
Cheers
Use Arcane Mark on everyone in the party? Good luck figuring out who's controlling the Eidolon.
A simple cloth covering over the forehead is sufficient for that.
However, there is a much better way to detect the summoner -- he is the guy who is staying near the eidolon and targeting it with buffing spells.
See the glowing rune on the weird monster? Kill the dude hanging back with the funny hat.My argument assumes you don't have a -3 intelligence and know to wear a hat or scarf to cover it.Matching glowing runes might be a bit of a giveaway.He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.
The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.
It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.
Summoners are pretty rare in Golarion.
Instead of spending feats to get what I wanted for the eidolon, I spent evolution points. He does obscene damage, far outpacing my fighter ( who was built to tank rather than damage). What's more, I can change the way it's built every time I level up. You can't do that with feats.
Not every level, but the fighter does have an ability to change feats on a limited basis.
Remember is the the evolution pool that can be changed, not the skill ranks selected or feats.
So what is the leading cause of the 'obscene damage' from your build?
|
|
Extra size, extra strength, slam, claws.
He hits at + 17, and deals lotsa damage. I put extra damage into his slam attack too.
We're only level 10. He hits often and hits hard.
On its own, the eidolon isn't better than the fighter was, but with the summoner buffing it and healing it, then he seems to do more than the fighter could, especially since eidolon death was an inexpensive inconvenience, as opposed to the fighters death.
Don't get me wrong, this is no uber god class, but as a very experienced player and DM, this class seems to have more pluses than minuses going for it. I feel the balance is out for this class. And I'm a guy who doesn't believe in the tier system or caster über ness.
I feel (opinion here) that making evolution choices more permanent, and possibly toning down the summoner himself could address much. Making choices a little harder, and creating a more fragile summoner means tactics would change significantly. At least in my experience, this would change how the class played at my table.
Cheers
|
Usually, I'm a stalwart defender of everything paizo and there designs. This time I have to agree that the summoner is somewhat unfair to other players.
I'm playing one at the moment. Brought him in to replace my fighter who actually managed to get killed by a fantasmal killer. Turns out low rolls will beat good defences every time.
Any way, I took a stock standard summoner and used hero labs to build him and his eidolon to make sure everything was legal.
I've noticed that my eidolon has effectively become the tank. It's easier to damage, doesn't have the same AC nor the damage reduction my fighter had, but it is easier to fix and replace without relying on other players to do it.
Instead of spending feats to get what I wanted for the eidolon, I spent evolution points. He does obscene damage, far outpacing my fighter ( who was built to tank rather than damage). What's more, I can change the way it's built every time I level up. You can't do that with feats.
I find that the eidolon is far more the character than the summoner itself. It's on only the fact that insure I roleplay the hell out of my summoner that he gets the attention, because in combat situations it's all beast. ( which is the name of my eidolon).
Summoner also has d8 hit die, good armour if necessary and a spell list built mostly for buffing and combat control. It's a powerful caster in its own right and is great as a tag along for any party to make them stronger.
This is the first class I've playerd where I'm actively playing down my power for other players to get some time in the sunlight. Even the dreaded wizard that everyone espouses about on these boards isn't an issue in our games because were all experienced with them and what weaknesses they have so they can be controlled without the need of the player toning things down.
My feeling, without over analysing it all, is that the summoner class got a little too many pluses and not enough negatives to balance it. It's quite good as a class to replace a tank if...
A the player that played a summoner for 10 levels in my group pointed out, he has the spell to change/add to his eidolon evolutions even during an adventure.
Plenty of negative channelling clerics or undead doing negative energy damage? Take undead appearance for a while, it cost only 2 evolution points.The eidolon evolutions are full of solutions like that for things with which the other characters will have to deal the hard way.
The summoner is great if you have a undersized party and need a way to shore it up but in a normal group it hog the spotlight a lot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First reply pretty much says everything there is to say, and does so in an inoffensive way. Nice job Dr.