What's wrong with the Summoner?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Scavion wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Do people not realize the spells Dismissal and Banishment exist? And that like... msot every mid- to high level outsider has them...

Guess what the Eidolon recommended form and Summoners best save is?

And even if you do fail the save, they just resummon their eidolon instantly with a 2nd level spell slot.

It's quad actually(you know for pounce). Which does have a poor will save. Furthermore only the summoner or the eidolon can have a cloak of resistance.

Which is again, a trade for a second level spell slot.


Hmmm a lot of people are concerned about Dismissal and Blasphemy.

I was once toying with making a synthesist who used these when he was particularly worried about that tactic:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/dimen sional-shackles

Not something you want to use all the time, since dimension door and other transport spells are on your list, and you get dimension door as a spell like.

But if you are really worried about this tactic, you can have a set for 28,000 gp, or 14,000 if you take craft wondrous and make them yourself.

I guess it takes up one pair of arms. Not really sure if you could make one that was just a bracer or something, or just wear it on one arm and have it work. Then again most of these synthesists are multi-armed abominations and it wouldn't matter that much.

Plus Dimensional Anchor is only a 3rd level spell for a summoner. You could just cast it on yourself whenever or have a wand or a couple of scrolls if it ever came up.


Or use this only 6k and better

Fear not underpowered summoners Paizo will provided this item that will basically negates that one glaring weakness you had. This item is extra useful for the synthesist summoner.

Meanwhile rogue items are 15K or more example 1 example 2

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

sunbeam wrote:

Hmmm a lot of people are concerned about Dismissal and Blasphemy.

I was once toying with making a synthesist who used these when he was particularly worried about that tactic:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/dimen sional-shackles

Not something you want to use all the time, since dimension door and other transport spells are on your list, and you get dimension door as a spell like.

But if you are really worried about this tactic, you can have a set for 28,000 gp, or 14,000 if you take craft wondrous and make them yourself.

I guess it takes up one pair of arms. Not really sure if you could make one that was just a bracer or something, or just wear it on one arm and have it work. Then again most of these synthesists are multi-armed abominations and it wouldn't matter that much.

Plus Dimensional Anchor is only a 3rd level spell for a summoner. You could just cast it on yourself whenever or have a wand or a couple of scrolls if it ever came up.

I'd be really surprised at a Synthesist who actually needed those since the probability of him failing the Will save should be pretty darn low. He has high Will to begin with and can afford to pump WIS since he doesn't care at all about his physical stats. Worth noting that Blasphemy only has the dismissal effect if you're actually fighting a devil in Hell or a demon in the Abyss (certainly not impossible at those levels, but worth pointing out). Blasphemy and dismissal are primarily dangers for non-Synthesist Summoners, but non-Synthesist Summoners are also more likely to be built in such a way that they're actually prepared to lose their eidolon. Since they don't wear their eidolon everywhere they've probably run into more situations where they've had to do without and invested in their SLA's accordingly.

And like mentioned previously, eidolon is just icing on an already delicious conjury specialized cake. A Summoner without an eidolon is still bringing as much to the party as most summon-focused Wizards (more for players with low to middling system mastery).


Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The class is quite strong and the rules are very complex.. It could probably use a little nerfing. Perhaps break out the summon monster ability for the master summoner only and simplify the eidolon rules a little.

I currently play a non-optimized melee summoner/flank buddy eidolon. The summoner spends rounds buffing the party, not eidolon only, then comes in to fight for the second half. I'm conflicted about using the large evolution later on and may teach the halting to ride my pet.


DrDeth wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:

Fine. Stat out your 10th level Fighter, normal WBL. Also write down his teammates, we'll just assume same party composition, just replacing Fighter with the Summoner.

EDIT: And make sure your Fighter is able to contribute in more situations than, well, fighting. One-trick ponies are neat, but largely irrelevant to the discussion.

I don't do one-trick ponies.
Very well, then. Still waiting.

I will post my builds, but cannot generate a full party build while at work. It will be this evening before I have access to my full set of pre-built characters.

** spoiler omitted **

Ok, guys, maybe start another thread? Because many of us are not interested in "warring builds" since they prove nothing.

please?

I second this


I've been thinking about the summoner in general and thought it may work well to put together a kind of arcane Druid as a rebuild. Pick a number of magical creature/monster templates and let the summoner pick these as an 'eidolon companion.' The advancement rules would otherwise be similar to the druid/ranger animal companion and based on a template.

The summoner would get 1d6 hp 1/2 bab and full 1-9 casting with a special list like the witch but more focused on summons/buffs and black tentacle goodness. Armor prof = no but Mage armor+shield are first level spells and it can probably keep stone-skin but drop barkskin. The list would be specialized and focused to flavor and balance the class. Options would be more limited than wizards/sorcerers. When redesigning this list, it is important to take into account the added usefulness of the eidolon, so the list will need to be a less powerful list, overall, than the sorcerer/wizard list, with non-summoner focused spells removed or backed off by 1 level (5th rather than 4th, for example). Otherwise, sorcerer progression with one less spell per level.

As a special ability = to 1 time per day + charisma mod let the summoner cast a summon spell on their list as a standard action. The summoner can spend two uses of this ability to allow the Summons to stick around for 1 minute per level.

Allow the synthesist archetype but make the form based on the polymorph spell rules (balanced additions to base attributes/natural armor etc). Set up a table for synthesist forms (big, powerful forms, quick forms, forms with lots of tentacles etc.) from which the synthesist picks one in which to progress. In synthesist form, the summoner gains 3/4 BaB, but loses all spellcasting (no feat to get around this). This ability replaces the eidolon and switching forms takes a full standard action (no feat to get around this).

-R


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I have played both a summoner and a master summoner. Way overpowered for all the reasons stated throughout the post already.

A Summoner plus eidolon plus spells is twice the character than any other player, its simply master/blaster. Haste, damaging spells, buffs, the only limitation is action economy. They arent as blatantly nasty as the master summoner or synthesist.

A master summoner. Haha, at 7th level, with my MS maxed out with all the good summoning addon feats(augment/extra summons), I summoned 12+ aurochs that repeatedly stampeded over my opponents for 200+ damage per round, my record was 458. I just kept resummoning if they died and it was horrible. Broken.

One of our other guys played a synthesist and he went multi-arm shredder, and he had to pull his punches also, they are campaign wreckers.


Chromnos wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

I was having similar thoughts; the Summoner isn't any easier to kill than any other caster, and in many cases will actually be more difficult to take down, especially when he's got a pet murder-beast he can swap places with.


Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

True.

For my games, I've outlawed the synthesist and master summoner. The base summoner, though powerful, didn't seem quite as extreme. Playing one now as a kind of gish/buffer and the number of options on the class are quite extraordinary at low level. I don't know if the class has net power that exceeds a caster, but its ability to fill in the melee role with the eidolon is something I could see ruffling feathers.

How do you feel it compares to the Druid/animal companion combo?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Depending on alignment of the summoner, wouldn't a cleric or paladin be better at taking out a Summoner than others? It looks to me like even with the Eidolon a Protection from {alignment} is still effective in all ways except preventing bodily contact, and then only if they didn't use the Summon spell to bring them in.


Been reading over this thread since it started. I do admit that the summoner has a high floor and that can be a pain to play/ be played with to those that can't handle the extra action economy but this isn't limited to just the summoner. I feel a druid though has a lower floor has much higher ceiling, not quite the same as 3.5 admittedly.

What I like about the summoner is the build your own nature. No other class has as much thematic power that the summoner does with the weak link being the summoner. The druid doesn't have that limitation of being the weak part.

My issue though is I feel we are looking at effects instead of causes. The number one cause of most power issues is action economy, nothing in the game is more powerful than gaining or taking away actions. So my proposal is simple go the 4e route of splitting your one guys worth of actions between your minions basically you have to take an action to control your companion.


Chromnos wrote:


For my games, I've outlawed the synthesist and master summoner. The base summoner, though powerful, didn't seem quite as extreme. Playing one now as a kind of gish/buffer and the number of options on the class are quite extraordinary at low level. I don't know if the class has net power that exceeds a caster, but its ability to fill in the melee role with the eidolon is something I could see ruffling feathers.

How do you feel it compares to the Druid/animal companion combo?

Well, an AC can't activate magic items or carry out complex plans. The AC is also far less powerful than an Eidolon. It also requires handle animal checks and requires tricks to do certain things.

Druid compared to a Summoner? A Druid can be a better melee combatant hands down. A Summoner is likely a better caster though. Summon Monster as a spell-like ability likely 7 times a day does that sort of thing. In a dungeon or rapid skirmish setting, those monsters are an asset for 2, maybe 3 fights. And thats just one casting.

It goes to show how powerful the base Summoner is if what is considered by many the best class in the game is shown up slightly by it.


Scavion wrote:

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

Which is perfectly fine if they're particularly intelligent.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:


For my games, I've outlawed the synthesist and master summoner. The base summoner, though powerful, didn't seem quite as extreme. Playing one now as a kind of gish/buffer and the number of options on the class are quite extraordinary at low level. I don't know if the class has net power that exceeds a caster, but its ability to fill in the melee role with the eidolon is something I could see ruffling feathers.

How do you feel it compares to the Druid/animal companion combo?

Well, an AC can't activate magic items or carry out complex plans. The AC is also far less powerful than an Eidolon. It also requires handle animal checks and requires tricks to do certain things.

Druid compared to a Summoner? A Druid can be a better melee combatant hands down. A Summoner is likely a better caster though. Summon Monster as a spell-like ability likely 7 times a day does that sort of thing. In a dungeon or rapid skirmish setting, those monsters are an asset for 2, maybe 3 fights. And thats just one casting.

It goes to show how powerful the base Summoner is if what is considered by many the best class in the game is shown up slightly by it.

I'm pretty much in the same boat on this one. Without their respective companions, the Summoner and Druid are still very competitive, with solid spell lists on both sides and effectively equal casting capability, and what the Summoner lacks in the Druid's direct damaging capabilities from Wild Shape is made up for by his ability to field powerful allies who last longer and are summoned more readily. If you then turn to the pets to decide the difference, the Summoner has a substantial edge as the eidolon is several orders of magnitude greater than the animal companion, with better BAB, more than 3 times the skills, fully capable of independent action without requiring the Summoner to invest skill ranks, a higher base armor bonus (not counting what can be acquired via evolutions), higher STR/DEX bonuses, and Darkvision to the animal companion's low light vision. Add on top of that the fact that most of the base Eidolon forms start out as good as an animal companion but get all the powerful and customizable benefits of evolutions... Eidolon just stomps all over the animal companion.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:


For my games, I've outlawed the synthesist and master summoner. The base summoner, though powerful, didn't seem quite as extreme. Playing one now as a kind of gish/buffer and the number of options on the class are quite extraordinary at low level. I don't know if the class has net power that exceeds a caster, but its ability to fill in the melee role with the eidolon is something I could see ruffling feathers.

How do you feel it compares to the Druid/animal companion combo?

Well, an AC can't activate magic items or carry out complex plans. The AC is also far less powerful than an Eidolon. It also requires handle animal checks and requires tricks to do certain things.

Druid compared to a Summoner? A Druid can be a better melee combatant hands down. A Summoner is likely a better caster though. Summon Monster as a spell-like ability likely 7 times a day does that sort of thing. In a dungeon or rapid skirmish setting, those monsters are an asset for 2, maybe 3 fights. And thats just one casting.

It goes to show how powerful the base Summoner is if what is considered by many the best class in the game is shown up slightly by it.

To be a better physical combatant than the summoner the druid need to spend character point in physical abilities and so he would have worse mental abilities.

The eidolon is a way better physical combatant than the druid AC.

A summoner can use light metal armors. Elven chain mail beat hide armor hand on. If the druid can find a dragon hide armor the situation change, but that is way rarer than the elven chain.

Grand Lodge

Getting past the mechanic arguments over the Summoner, which have been discussed at length (and honestly, how can one not see a MORE POWERFUL Druid and not say, "Wow, that's at least a little broken"?) my biggest problem with the Summoner is more flavor than anything.

We know WHAT the Summoner is - what I don't understand is WHO it is? The Eidolon language is intentionally vague, and it doesn't seem to coincide with any of their other abilities. Their spell list is a jumble, their mechanics do not relate well to any other class in the game. Even the Monk, which many people balked at for its Eastern-Flavor-in-an-Otherwise-Western-Core-Book back in 3.0 days, made sense according to the presented mechanics in the given book.

The Summoner is like introducing a Psionics system without a book - it's all contained in the text of the singular class that uses it. I have yet to see one in an AP and I've never included them in my Homebrew games because I just cannot visualize exactly how these monstrosities fit into the society at large.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed some posts and their replies. Please be civil to each other, and agree to disagree.


I can see where the action economy of the optimally built base summoner will probably edge out the synthesist in simulation, and, by 20th level, the twin eidolon is monstrous. Most games I'm running end at around 15-18' though.

In game, I see the typically unoptimized summoner as far less of an issue than the power armor guy who makes barbarians feel like they are raspberry twinkies and that requires extraordinary system mastery to run well at the table.

Now if a player with agency came with a synth build that worked well in the right party mix, didn't create an entirely unhittable AC, didn't produce multiple physical stats of 5-10 or more higher than other melee types and I felt they could economically handle the very bulky synth mechanic, then I would probably go for it.

The sandbox, as it is, though, takes more into account than simulation math. Games in general are both team building and character development exercises. And the base summoner has a lot more to offer as a team player than the highly melee focused synth.

That said, I can see why some ban the summoner altogether.


I see that post chain got deleted. This is edited as a result. Which, really? What I posted was moderation worthy? The f@+@... Later Paizo.


EntrerisShadow wrote:

Getting past the mechanic arguments over the Summoner, which have been discussed at length (and honestly, how can one not see a MORE POWERFUL Druid and not say, "Wow, that's at least a little broken"?) my biggest problem with the Summoner is more flavor than anything.

We know WHAT the Summoner is - what I don't understand is WHO it is? The Eidolon language is intentionally vague, and it doesn't seem to coincide with any of their other abilities. Their spell list is a jumble, their mechanics do not relate well to any other class in the game. Even the Monk, which many people balked at for its Eastern-Flavor-in-an-Otherwise-Western-Core-Book back in 3.0 days, made sense according to the presented mechanics in the given book.

The Summoner is like introducing a Psionics system without a book - it's all contained in the text of the singular class that uses it. I have yet to see one in an AP and I've never included them in my Homebrew games because I just cannot visualize exactly how these monstrosities fit into the society at large.

You see, for me it was the summoner concept that was its most compelling element. The one I play is the teen-age kid who talks to and makes friends with otherworldly beings. The eidolon is a spirit trying to manifest in the world and she's helping it take shape. Boosted her linguistics through the roof. I've fluffed her party buffing spells as concoctions of other-worldly agents collected for her by her friends which she brews into tonics her fellow members must drink before her magic can have an effect on them.

Creatively, these were pretty compelling memes, but I can see where the summoner, as is, lacks an ancient cultural hook. Witchcraft, shamanism, and demon binding cultists are probably the closest links. But as written the class is almost sci-fi/anime in flavor.


EntrerisShadow wrote:

Getting past the mechanic arguments over the Summoner, which have been discussed at length (and honestly, how can one not see a MORE POWERFUL Druid and not say, "Wow, that's at least a little broken"?) my biggest problem with the Summoner is more flavor than anything.

We know WHAT the Summoner is - what I don't understand is WHO it is? The Eidolon language is intentionally vague, and it doesn't seem to coincide with any of their other abilities. Their spell list is a jumble, their mechanics do not relate well to any other class in the game. Even the Monk, which many people balked at for its Eastern-Flavor-in-an-Otherwise-Western-Core-Book back in 3.0 days, made sense according to the presented mechanics in the given book.

The Summoner is like introducing a Psionics system without a book - it's all contained in the text of the singular class that uses it. I have yet to see one in an AP and I've never included them in my Homebrew games because I just cannot visualize exactly how these monstrosities fit into the society at large.

It did not help that it apparently took a year for the iconic summoner's backstory to be revealed (And even now, I find it hard to find rather hard to find THIS ENTRY without precise google-fu).


Buri wrote:
I see that post chain got deleted. This is edited as a result. Which, really? What I posted was moderation worthy? The f*~@... Later Paizo.

Apparently because of the way the board works, when the mods delete a post it also deletes any replies to that post, and posts that are a reply to replies to that post, ans so on. So often a lot of inoffensive or even constructive posts get caught in the crossfire.


EntrerisShadow wrote:

Getting past the mechanic arguments over the Summoner, which have been discussed at length (and honestly, how can one not see a MORE POWERFUL Druid and not say, "Wow, that's at least a little broken"?) my biggest problem with the Summoner is more flavor than anything.

We know WHAT the Summoner is - what I don't understand is WHO it is? The Eidolon language is intentionally vague, and it doesn't seem to coincide with any of their other abilities. Their spell list is a jumble, their mechanics do not relate well to any other class in the game. Even the Monk, which many people balked at for its Eastern-Flavor-in-an-Otherwise-Western-Core-Book back in 3.0 days, made sense according to the presented mechanics in the given book.

The Summoner is like introducing a Psionics system without a book - it's all contained in the text of the singular class that uses it. I have yet to see one in an AP and I've never included them in my Homebrew games because I just cannot visualize exactly how these monstrosities fit into the society at large.

Read the young adult Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud. I have a hard time believing that none of the designers who worked on the summoner didn't.

As far as strictly D&D worlds go, they're basically Wizards (or maybe Arcanists) who specialize so much in conjuration that they can summon extremely powerful monsters for their level, in exchange for a more limited spell list and fewer overall spells per day.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Buri wrote:
I see that post chain got deleted. This is edited as a result. Which, really? What I posted was moderation worthy? The f*~@... Later Paizo.
Apparently because of the way the board works, when the mods delete a post it also deletes any replies to that post, and posts that are a reply to replies to that post, ans so on. So often a lot of inoffensive or even constructive posts get caught in the crossfire.

I'm willing to bet that that requires a special action and that they do indeed have the power to delete single posts and abridge replies to those posts, but the sheer number of posts in Gamer Life they have to watch keeps them from doing their jobs on this board.

I suggest Paizo blackmail a lobbyist until they get enough free money from the government to hire extra moderators. There might be other ways to raise the cash, but let's not go crazy here. Set realistic goals.


I don't like the summoner because of flavor. They break the rules of summoning, protection from evil does not work on them ( I still like 1E PFE). I would like a summoner more focused on making pacts with the supernatural for their services.

Now, I think the Summoner could be reworked as a Golem Maker very easily flavorwise. But, I generally don't like players that want their pets to do all the work while they sit back in safety, something very evil about that for a heroic character. Summoners are basically lazy and manipulative by nature. They make very good villains in my opinion.


Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

Matching glowing runes might be a bit of a giveaway.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

Matching glowing runes might be a bit of a giveaway.

My argument assumes you don't have a -3 intelligence and know to wear a hat or scarf to cover it.


there is nothing wrong with the summoner save for the master summoner.

Been playing game since the first day it was released and the only two classes in all the years where i went wow, or stop playing because they were too much were the

master summoner and the witch. those two classes can break the game, however that is only if the player chooses to break the game.


Scavion wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

Matching glowing runes might be a bit of a giveaway.
My argument assumes you don't have a -3 intelligence and know to wear a hat or scarf to cover it.

See the glowing rune on the weird monster? Kill the dude hanging back with the funny hat.


SAMAS wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Chromnos wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
He put its AC in there, 29. With very little investment in temporary resources spent. With a buffing Summoner and a few rejuvenate eidolon spells, I sure that eidolon will survive much better than a same level Fighter.

Want to kill the eidolon? Target the summoner.

The Summoner has a D8 hit die, light armor, and good saves through Shield Ally.

It also requires a degree of metagaming from the enemy. Mindless/hungry creatures go for whats in front of them. Even intelligent opponents likely have no idea that the creature is bound to one of your party members.

Matching glowing runes might be a bit of a giveaway.
My argument assumes you don't have a -3 intelligence and know to wear a hat or scarf to cover it.
See the glowing rune on the weird monster? Kill the dude hanging back with the funny hat.

Or a helm, scarf, skullcap, and such.

Considering that most of the party is likely to be wearing headgear...


Or!

Creatures attack all points of the party and then focus the ones most likely to break.

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