Is there a Neutral equivalent to Empyreal lords or Abyss Lords?

[Roger Corbera]

The question is if there is any equivalent of these two classes but of neutral alignment.

[eakratz]

There are Protean Lords.

[lemeres]

Plus the psychopomp ushers.

Plus, I think all but one of the fey eldest are each neutral on at least one alignment axis (the exception, of course, is the obligatory CE one). Which makes sense, I suppose, with the connection between fey and druids....

[Azazyll]

Aeon lords?

[Imbicatus]

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

[lemeres]

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

[FancyZergling]

The Meh Knights.

['Sani]

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

They didn't kill the good ones, they just imprisoned them and threw away the keys. But otherwise you have the gist of it correct. Yay teamwork!

[lemeres]

'Sani wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

They didn't kill the good ones, they just imprisoned them and threw away the keys. But otherwise you have the gist of it correct. Yay teamwork!

Ah, I see. Well, that is what you get for not playing nice with your friends. You get to go to time out........permanently. I hope they think about what they done and do better in that nonexistent future.

[Dripps]

The closest you can get that provide powers to PCs ATM are probably The Eldest. These deities hail from the first world and most of them are neutral in the good/evil axis, but all over the place in the law/chaotic axis.

[Luthorne]

Yes, though to what extent depends on what you mean by 'neutral'...true neutral, or just neutral on the evil/good axis? If the latter, we know there are primal inevitables (LN), protean lords (CN), and the psychopomp ushers (N), though we know virtually nothing about them so far...we have names for some of the protean lords and the psychopomp ushers, but that's about it. Additionally, the Eldest and the Kami Lords might count, though the Eldest are all over the spectrum...Chaotic Neutral (Count Ranalac and The Lantern King), Lawful Neutral (Imbrex and Magdh), True Neutral (Ng, Shyka, and The Lost Prince), Chaotic Evil (Ragadahn), and Neutral Evil (The Green Mother). We know nothing at all about the kami lords beyond their existence, but kami themselves have a widely varying range of alignments...Neutral Good (dosojin, toshigami), Lawful Neutral (fukujin, shikigami), True Neutral (jinushigami, kodama, suijin), Chaotic Neutral (kaminari), and Lawful Good (zuishin), so we can imagine that the kami lords vary similarly, but tend towards neutrality on at least one axis.

[Roger Corbera]

I think the Ushers and the Primal Inevitables are what I was looking for. Thanks. Is there any cult around them?

[Starglim]

I assume any prayers to the Ushers mostly fall within the church of Pharasma.

[Spook205]

Primal Inevitables might be odd..

They were all built by the Axiomites after all. Although even they can't remember how to make them.

[Entryhazard]

Isn't there some Axiomite demigod?

Roger Corbera wrote:

I think the Ushers and the Primal Inevitables are what I was looking for. Thanks. Is there any cult around them?

Starglim wrote:

I assume any prayers to the Ushers mostly fall within the church of Pharasma.

Yes, much like the Archdevils and Asmodeus

[Major_Blackhart]

Have they ever gone into anything for the Primal Inevitables though?

[Luthorne]

Roger Corbera wrote:

I think the Ushers and the Primal Inevitables are what I was looking for. Thanks. Is there any cult around them?

There likely is, given that they can grant spells, but we know very little about what their nature, though some speculation is possible.

Bestiary 2 wrote:

Primal Inevitables

While the lhaksharuts are generally thought of as the most powerful caste of inevitable, there exist others of even greater skill and strength—these are known as the primal inevitables. These goliaths were among the first weapons of war forged by the axiomites to fight the protean menace—the methods to create more have long been lost to the axiomites, and those few primals who remain alive to this day have become legendary. None have been encountered in living memory, but the possibility of a primal’s emergence is enough to give the proteans second thoughts when ideas of invading the inevitables’ home plane arise.

As inevitables, the primal inevitables are most likely primarily concerned with protecting and upholding the ordered nature of the multiverse, as well as protecting the plane they share with their axiomite creators. Presumably, any cultists who dedicated themselves to the primal inevitables would have similar goals, trying to create and maintain order, opposing forces of chaos. Perhaps their love of order comes from growing up in a well-ordered home or town, perhaps as a reaction to growing up in a chaotic place like Galt or the River Kingdoms, or perhaps a cult even founded by a planar traveler who saw the Maelstrom and called it abomination. Alternatively, a primal inevitable might have made contact itself, perhaps via dreams, a sending, or an inevitable emissary.

Beyond that, you'd have to brainstorm some primal inevitables and figure out what their interests are beyond the obvious...perhaps starting with domains, since each would have four domains, one of which would be Law. After all, a primal inevitable with the domains of Charm, Community, Law, and Nobility would probably be about establishing and creating order via a cult of personality, while one with Destruction, Fire, Law, and War would more likely be about scouring Chaos from the face of the multiverse, and one with Artifice, Earth, Law, and Protection would be more likely to be a steadfast bulwark who seeks to build structures and great works that chaos can never tear down. And so on and so forth.

Inner Sea Bestiary wrote:

Psychopomp Ushers

Beings ancient and dispassionate rise above the psychopomp droves, emissaries of dooms who have presided over the deaths of whole nations, races, and worlds. These eldest and most efficient servants of death hold great respect for Pharasma, but are not necessarily her minions, striving to fulfill their own visions of death's ultimate purpose and process over all other objectives.

• Atropos the Last Sister
  
• Barzahk the Passage
  
• Ceyanan the Shepherd
  
• Dammar the Denied
  
• Imot the Symbol of Doom
  
• Mother Vulture
  
• Mrtyu, Death's Consort
  
• Narakaas the Cleansing Sentence
  
• The Pale Horse
  
• Plegyas, Consoler of Atheists
  
• Saloc, Minder of Immortals
  
• Teshallas the Primordial Poison
  
• Vale the Court of Ancestors

Meanwhile, psychopomp ushers, as psychopomps, are likely primarily concerned with the flow of life, and, as it says, death's ultimate purpose and process. They are also specifically the enemies of daemons and qlippoths, as well as anyone else who would interfere with the flow of souls, whether to prey on those souls, or trap them in the state of undeath. And each one doubtless has their own take or focus in regards to this that a cult dedicated to them would reflect. We have names, but it's still a matter of guesswork as to what each one would be concerned with...Ceyanan, one would imagine, specifically focused on protecting and guiding lost souls, and Saloc seems like they keep tabs on those who are immortal, presumably not undead, but are actively immortal. Thus, a cult of Ceyanan might well collect information about ghosts and other such, as well as protecting the dead from the depredations of the living (such as some necromancers), trying to help them find their way back to the River of Souls, while a cult dedicated to Saloc might try to collect information on immortals, find out if someone is, in fact, immortal, and otherwise keep track of them.

This is, of course, purely speculative since we have virtually no information, but there's certainly fodder for brainstorming.

[Spook205]

I can honestly think of one guy from the old TSR days that I'd immediately grandfather in to being a primal inevitable, but I fear that he wouldn't pass the 'owned intellectual property' test for if he could be used 'officially'.

For unofficial stuff, go looking for a guy called Coax-metal from Planescape Torment. I've adapted him as the Inevitable of Entropy for my table.

[Todd Stewart]

Entryhazard wrote:

Isn't there some Axiomite demigod?

That would be the Axiomite Godmind. Its exact nature as a divinity or not hasn't been specified in print.

[j b 200]

Luthone wrote:

Meanwhile, psychopomp ushers, as psychopomps, are likely primarily concerned with the flow of life, and, as it says, death's ultimate purpose and process. They are also specifically the enemies of daemons and qlippoths, as well as anyone else who would interfere with the flow of souls, whether to prey on those souls, or trap them in the state of undeath. And each one doubtless has their own take or focus in regards to this that a cult dedicated to them would reflect. We have names, but it's still a matter of guesswork as to what each one would be concerned with...Ceyanan, one would imagine, specifically focused on protecting and guiding lost souls, and Saloc seems like they keep tabs on those who are immortal, presumably not undead, but are actively immortal. Thus, a cult of Ceyanan might well collect information about ghosts and other such, as well as protecting the dead from the depredations of the living (such as some necromancers), trying to help them find their way back to the River of Souls, while a cult dedicated to Saloc might try to collect information on immortals, find out if someone is, in fact, immortal, and otherwise keep track of them.

You can find some info on Ceyanan in Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine as He/She appears in both Pathfinder Tales Novels

[j b 200]

As for Domains, I would assume that most will have either the Death (Pharasma version) or Repose Domains. Others might be Destruction, Community, Water, etc. Just brainstorming.

[Bigdaddyjug]

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb?

[Luthorne]

Todd Stewart wrote:

Entryhazard wrote:

Isn't there some Axiomite demigod?

That would be the Axiomite Godmind. Its exact nature as a divinity or not hasn't been specified in print.

Yeah, I left out the Axiomite God-Mind because...well, it seems a trifle awkward to have a deity that doesn't always exist, given that it's formed only at-need by the greatest axiomites merging together into a mighty gestalt intellect, after which they separate again to go do what the God-Mind has determined needs to be done. I mean, I guess you could argue for some sort of deific echo to call upon and still grant spells or whatnot, but it's a bit iffy, even presuming it is on par with a god or demigod (I like to think it is, though). Not that I don't love the God-Mind and axiomites (and also the idea of giant robotic demigods fighting the lawful neutral fight against chaos).

j b 200 wrote:

You can find some info on Ceyanan in Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine as He/She appears in both Pathfinder Tales Novels

Interesting. Haven't read the Pathfinder Tales novels...wish I had more spare time for reading books.

[Lincoln Hills]

Luthorne wrote:

...it seems a trifle awkward to have a deity that doesn't always exist, given that it's formed only at-need by the greatest axiomites merging together into a mighty gestalt intellect, after which they separate again to go do what the God-Mind has determined needs to be done. I mean, I guess you could argue for some sort of deific echo to call upon and still grant spells or whatnot, but it's a bit iffy...

Perhaps the Godmind empowers oracles during the times it exists, since they're a lot more self-maintaining than clerics.

[9mm]

I'm not entirely sure but I'd put the elder horrors as the TN. They aren't good or evil, they just exist and drive you mad.

[James Jacobs]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb?

In this particular case? That is indeed pretty much how it went down.

Sometimes evil wins.

Especially in a case where it might, just MIGHT, be laying the groundwork for a proto-idea I MIGHT have for an Adventure Path that might or might not ever come to be in the distant future...

[Bigdaddyjug]

James Jacobs wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb?

In this particular case? That is indeed pretty much how it went down.

Sometimes evil wins.

Especially in a case where it might, just MIGHT, be laying the groundwork for a proto-idea I MIGHT have for an Adventure Path that might or might not ever come to be in the distant future...

If said adventure path ever does come to fruition, I must insist on there being a macguffin called "The Schwartz" in it.

[Imbicatus]

James Jacobs wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb?

In this particular case? That is indeed pretty much how it went down.

Sometimes evil wins.

Especially in a case where it might, just MIGHT, be laying the groundwork for a proto-idea I MIGHT have for an Adventure Path that might or might not ever come to be in the distant future...

Sounds cool... Especially if there were any *ahem* allusions to a certain temple where there may be evil elemental cults.

[Bellona]

Tease!

[Bellona]

Actually, I was surprised to see that aeons (true neutral, found in Bestiary 2) don't list any near-deity versions. The toughest appear to be the pleromas (CR 20).

I've always loved the aeons for their uncaring connected-to-the-universe-ness. :)

[DiregrafCaptain]

James Jacobs wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb?

In this particular case? That is indeed pretty much how it went down.

Sometimes evil wins.

Especially in a case where it might, just MIGHT, be laying the groundwork for a proto-idea I MIGHT have for an Adventure Path that might or might not ever come to be in the distant future...

Everyone get hyped

[Luthorne]

9mm wrote:

I'm not entirely sure but I'd put the elder horrors as the TN. They aren't good or evil, they just exist and drive you mad.

Well, so far, of the Great Old Ones, Bokrug and Mhar are Chaotic Neutral, Cthulhu, Hastur, and Orgesh are Chaotic Evil, and Xhamen-Dor is Neutral Evil, while of the Outer Gods, Azathoth is Chaotic Neutral, Nyarlathotep (both in his guises as the Black Pharaoh and Haunter of the Dark), Shub-Niggurath, and Yog-Sothoth are all Chaotic Evil, so overall, I'd say they tend more towards Evil than neutrality on the Evil-Good axis, but definitely towards Chaos for the most part on the Chaos-Law axis.

"Bellona wrote:

Actually, I was surprised to see that aeons (true neutral, found in Bestiary 2) don't list any near-deity versions. The toughest appear to be the pleromas (CR 20).

I've always loved the aeons for their uncaring connected-to-the-universe-ness. :)

I always figured it was because aeons tend to be temporary anyways...they're created long enough to do their job, and then dissipate and are dissolved into the Monad. Not having a sense of self and ultimately being temporary entities that are an aspect of a greater reality, it makes sense for there not to be unique, named aeons with particular personalities...indeed, having a unique personality in general is fairly strange for an aeon. Huzzah for weird gnostic concepts.

[MMCJawa]

To be fair, I always interpreted The Monad as a demigod level entity

[Luthorne]

MMCJawa wrote:

To be fair, I always interpreted The Monad as a demigod level entity

Well, it's really described more as a state of being...I shouldn't have said they're dissolved into the Monad, they're dissolved into the multiverse itself. Which they are but an extension of. Whether the multiverse is really self-aware or if aeons are just reactively produced or...who knows, really. But if the multiverse -was- self-aware, I think it would be a lot more powerful than a demigod...

[Kthulhu]

Some of the Great Old Ones are neutral.

[Michael Sayre]

Has anyone done the obligatory neutral quote?

"What makes a man turn neutral ... Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?" - Zapp Brannigan

[Starglim]

j b 200 wrote:

You can find some info on Ceyanan in Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine as He/She appears in both Pathfinder Tales Novels

Good point, I hadn't made the connection. Ceyanan turns up to instruct Pharasma's agent Salim, accompanied by Pharasma's usual portents (which may or may not be under his/her control) and is described as an 'angel'.

[j b 200]

Starglim wrote:

Good point, I hadn't made the connection. Ceyanan turns up to instruct Pharasma's agent Salim, accompanied by Pharasma's usual portents (which may or may not be under his/her control) and is described as an 'angel'.

I think it's more of just a reference to his/her appearance. In Redemption Engine the creatures in heaven are referred to as Angels, even though they are clearly Archons.

[Lincoln Hills]

Ssalarn wrote:

Has anyone done the obligatory neutral quote?

"What makes a man turn neutral ... Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?" - Zapp Brannigan

Yeah, I did just a couple weeks ago. But not in this thread, of course.

[deuxhero]

Kthulhu wrote:

Some of the Great Old Ones are neutral.

Bokrug and Mhar of the Great Old Ones and Azathoth of the Outer Gods are all Chaotic Neutral.

James Jacobs wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb?

In this particular case? That is indeed pretty much how it went down.

Sometimes evil wins.

Especially in a case where it might, just MIGHT, be laying the groundwork for a proto-idea I MIGHT have for an Adventure Path that might or might not ever come to be in the distant future...

Does it involve a temple?

[Spook205]

deuxhero wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Some of the Great Old Ones are neutral.

Bokrug and Mhar of the Great Old Ones and Azathoth of the Outer Gods are all Chaotic Neutral.

James Jacobs wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

There are also Elemental Lords, although for some inexplicable reason, they are NE instead of TN.

In setting, there is a reason for that. If I remember the story right, there used to be a set of good elemental lords, but (un)fortunately, the current lords learned the power of team work and killed those squabbling fools. Yeah, inspirational story, huh?

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb?

In this particular case? That is indeed pretty much how it went down.

Sometimes evil wins.

Especially in a case where it might, just MIGHT, be laying the groundwork for a proto-idea I MIGHT have for an Adventure Path that might or might not ever come to be in the distant future...

Does it involve a temple?

I doubt he'd just make it a temple.

It obviously involves dealing with four elementally themed teenaged evil druids and one animal lord evil druid who attempt to summon the dark paragon of the four elemental lords unified into the world to cleanse it of the pollution of sentient life.

The Bleak and Insidious 'Captain Golarion' who is formed by their powers combined.

[Alexander Augunas]

Bellona wrote:

Actually, I was surprised to see that aeons (true neutral, found in Bestiary 2) don't list any near-deity versions. The toughest appear to be the pleromas (CR 20).

I've always loved the aeons for their uncaring connected-to-the-universe-ness. :)

They do; its a singular entity in contrast to all of the other outsider races that have a plethora of high-powered members of the race. Monad is all that the aeons have, but its described as being fairly powerful as demigods go.

[Gallyck]

dotting for interest.

I always wanted more info on The Psychopomps.

[Imbicatus]

Spook205 wrote:

I doubt he'd just make it a temple.

It obviously involves dealing with four elementally themed teenaged evil druids and one animal lord evil druid who attempt to summon the dark paragon of the four elemental lords unified into the world to cleanse it of the pollution of sentient life.

The Bleak and Insidious 'Captain Golarion' who is formed by their powers combined.

As long as Captain Golarion is based on Don Cheadle, I approve.

[aetherwisp]

Basically, there are lots! Most of the neutral demigod classes have been mentioned here at some point (primal inevitables, protean lords, psychopomp ushers, the Eldest, the axiomite godmind, some of the Great Old Ones, kami lords) -- at least, most of the ones that we know of.

It's not clear whether the primal inevitables actually grant spells to worshipers, or if (more likely) they're simply very powerful constructs on the order of kaiju-fighting behemoths.

Aeons may also be a special case: Luthorne's probably right in saying that aeons, as extensions of the fabric of being itself, generally lack stable selves. But if that's the case, then monad -- which exists everywhere, must have a deeper impact on the universe than we have thus far seen. And it's recently been revealed that aeons have a connection to the Antipode, a crucial point along the River of Souls...

There are also neutral demigods in the dwarven pantheon, such as Kols, and factionless individuals such as the fire demigoddess Feronia. And there might be entire other classes of demigods out there -- ascended from alien races like Vercites or Eoxians or formians -- that we simply haven't heard of yet.

(I'm on a long-term crusade of sorts to encourage more development on these beings and concepts, as they are absolutely some of the most interesting and inspiring ideas in the entire Pathfinder mythos. I'll just leave this link here, in case anyone in this thread wants to chime in to show their support for more published material on the subject.)