Tell that to the fiendish intelligent CR 14 mustard jelly in Rise of the Runelords 5.... As for over CRed, red dragons juvenile and below. Unless the dragon remains on the wing, I've seen 6th level parties take out young in less then 3 rounds of blitz combat.
Tell that to the fiendish intelligent CR 14 mustard jelly in Rise of the Runelords 5.... As for over CRed, red dragons juvenile and below. Unless the dragon remains on the wing, I've seen 6th level parties take out young in less then 3 rounds of blitz combat.
Yes, intelligence removes the ooze's major weakness, lack of skill ranks and Stealth.
And to translate the second bolded part, "if the dragon is played badly". I cannot think of any general reason for a dragon to be on the ground during a fight. If the party is threatening something of theirs, maybe, but even then, eh.
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We all know about creatures that have a CR clearly below where they should be - they're in PFS adventures and are known for causing TPKs or a GM might throw one at you because they look neat and then characters end up dead.
There are also creatures who have a CR that seems higher than the challenge the present - it seems like every party mops the floor with these poor slobs when they're in an encounter.
What do you think are the most over-CR'ed and under-CR'ed creatures out there?
Over CR'd
The balor's biggest issue is just that it's all over the place. It's SLAs and fair maneuverability make it look like it should be a supportive demon (it's greater dispel magic, true seeing, and power word stun would look nice on a supporter), but its abilities seem to want to put it into melee where it's going to get destroyed, and it lacks any serious offense that's needed to try and kite enemies from a distance (implosion isn't going to kill anyone at this level as it caps at 200 damage and can't affect the same target twice, is close-range, etc). Its vorpal strike ability is pretty useless given that you have to confirm the crit to get vorpal to work, and at even 17th level, rolling the natural 20 and then also confirming a crit with a measly +31 to hit is pretty horrible odds (it'll be dead long before this is a thing unless it happens to roll double-20s on its first attack and bypasses fortification and other defenses).
The Balor would be a pretty good support-creature, or could benefit from some class levels, but its CR is already 20, and so it eats up far too much of the encounter's XP budget to justify its presence. As soon as you add 2 class levels of anything onto the Balor, its CR increases to CR 21, but two class levels is rarely going to make much of a difference at this point. The exception is probably Balor/Antipaladin 2, which would give it double-treasure (and thus better equipment), some armor (to help its horrible AC), unholy resilience (somewhere around +10 to its saves), a 1/day smite-good (which might help it hit somebody), and the heroic ability adjustments would help out as well.
The Balor could probably be saved as well if you stripped down its feats and were careful with its equipment and tactics. For example, dual-wielding while stylish is a horrible tactic for the Balor as he has wasted tons of feats on making full-attacks while having pretty horrible chances to hit. A more respectable balor loadout might look something like this:
Replace...
"Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword)"
With...
"Arcane Strike*, Improved Initiative, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike, Dazing Assault, Power Attack, Ability Focus (Vital Strike), Furious Focus, Combat Casting"
*: Due to FAQ nonsense, the Balor both qualifies for Arcane Strike and gets a +5 bonus to damage with it, so might as well use it here.
Then drop the dual-wielding entirely. Give him a greatsword or greataxe which deals 3d6 damage for a large-sized creature. With greater vital strike it now deals 12d6+18 damage, then +18 from Power Attack w/ Furious Focus, then +5 from Arcane Strike = 83 average damage at a +31 to hit. Add in a magical weapon with a decent enhancement bonus and you might hit something, or throw his whole treasure into a +1 brilliant energy weapon, which is now made vorpal and ignores enemy armor (likely reducing AC of PCs by as much as 22 points), which gives it enough room to use Dazing Assault at a DC 32 or deny his foe a round of actions.
Now he might actually be somewhat respected in melee, as he can make powerful crushing attacks that deny actions, his damage is decent (not stellar, but decent), and if he procs vorpal it'll probably actually confirm.
In fact, maybe the best way to handle this would be to just forgo vital strike + furious focus entirely, grab a brilliant energy glaive, combat reflexes, and lunge, and wreck as much face as possible by full-attacking and full-power attacking with dazing assault attacks as much as possible. The sad part is this is really just the brillaint energy enhancement (one that usually sucks for PCs but is amazing for NPCs) doing the heavy lifting (as it's effectively the same as giving him +X to hit where X is the combined value of his foes armor and shield bonuses).
More to come later, gotta go to work
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It can make for a good story.
Ahh, yes, I have a story like that as well ...
The rest of us managed to:
1) run to the door and open it
2) run through the door and ready to close it
3) run through the door and pull the guy who opened it through
before the shadow could act again, but the poor ranger was definitely not playing the rest of the series with that character.
TL:DR - Shadows are nasty.
Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.
Humanoids with NPC warrior levels. A Gnoll Warrior/10 is CR 5.
Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.
==Aelryinth
Actually it's CR 6 (CR 1 + 5 = CR 6). Also, honestly, compared o other CR 5 creatures like the mummy, the warrior is probably the easier enemy for a typical party.
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Going to get flack for this but i would say a pit fiend for weak. Yeah it's powerful and has an arsenal of spell like abilities but I recently realized that for its level it is surprisingly weak willed. That weak will allows it to simply be dominated, dazed, charmed , and such relatively easily for someone that pursues those status effects. Even on a die roll of 20+ his 18 that's very beatable. Spell resistance is even easier.
Flak, nah, but I will say I'm surprised. The Pit Fiend is IMHO usually my poster child for just how scary and powerful top-end monsters and encounters are in D&D/Pathfinder. For example, the generic pit fiend...
Has an at-will SLA that grants it an additional +4 AC and saves, no magic items needed. As a result it's effectively up 24/7 unless someone dispels in and the pit fiend doesn't have the time to re-apply it (but with greater teleport at will, unless it has also been hit with dimensional anchor recently, it will). Oh, and any good-aligned character who lands an attack on the pit fiend must make a saving throw (DC 26) or suffer 1d6 Strength damage.
That brings the naked pit fiend's AC to 42 and its saves to 28/25/22. Keep in mind, this is naked, so we'll get back to this in a bit.
Now in melee, the pit fiend is just as awful as the balor. Actually, scratch that, it's not quite as bad since its natural attacks are all using its full BAB with its routine being +32/+32/+32/+30/+30/+30, which is better than the balor's by far, plus it has a rather dangerous poison for those foolish enough to not have poison immunity (or an addiction to delay poison potions) at this level. The bite also inflicts a rather nasty disease (poison immunity is quite common at this level, but most people don't think about diseases much, and the immediate onset and 3 saves to cure make this a nasty surprise). It's a decent full-attack for geeking casters with (if the party doesn't have see invisibility constantly, it's at-will SLA + teleport SLA = decent opener in some cases).
Now where the pit fiend really shines is its plethora of amazing SLAs. While the Balor can't even begin to decide what it's doing, the pit fiend is a king of wrecking you in tons of different ways. These guys have the goods, and they can fight you head to head using their SLAs, or can harass you over multiple encounters. The big contenders here that parties must look out for are the mass hold monster SLA which can wreck entire parties with only a few bad rolls, the trap the soul SLA which has a solid chance of one-shotting most creatures (especially if the pit fiend has debuffer support minions) which not only effectively slays the target but steals its soul preventing resurrection (and if it's an outsider, such as a summoned or called creature, the pit fiend can compel a service from it on demand, which means if you gate in a solar and that solar biffs a will save, now you're fighting pit fiend + solar). Blasphemy forces a save at -4 for all extraplanar creatures (including PCs if they're fighting the fiend on its own plane) or be tossed out of the plane, and it also acts as a decent sweeper for summons and simulacrums (okay, so you've got your 12 wizard simulacrums following you around? Okay, they're all dead now, GG). Finally they round out with some quickened SLAs (default fireball but greater dispel magic, persistent image, scorching ray and wall of fire are all better and legal choices instead), create undead makes for a good explanation for littering their lairs with undead mooks, etc. 1/year wish might catch an unlucky party by surprise if it's that time to use it, it's 100% CR 19 or lower devil summon nets it a devil minion (likely with class levels or templates) with certainty, and meteor swarm might be pretty decent to blast someone with if the pit fiend has fire-retardant minions around.
If a Summoner (the class) is foolish enough to leave his eidolon unguarded, the balor can snatch the eidolon from the summoner and turn it against him (the eidolon is an outsider, so trap the soul can steal it from the summoner and turn it against the summoner and the party, which can wreck the summoner if the eidolon's given task is to kill its master and it must attempt to do so with no end-duration).
Like the Balor, the pit fiend's feat selection is pretty horrible, with stuff scattered all over the place (multi-attack + vital strike chain? Cleave chain? Quickened fireball for goodness sakes? Power Attack? Nah thanks). Unlike the Balor, the pit fiend has a wide variety of solid alternatives, as it can afford and benefit from grabbing a few more quicken-SLA feats, Ability Focus feats (fear aura, disease, mass hold monster and trap the soul), Flyby Attack, and even feats like Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes are good options.
Feats from expansion material can be strong too. If you follow the FAQ nonsense, then Dispel Synergy from Ultimate Combat allows the pit fiend to cast greater dispel magic (ideally via Quicken-SLA) and if they dispel any buffs on their target the target suffers a -2 untyped penalty vs the pit fiend's SLAs, which is effectively a +2 to the DC of your next mass hold monster or trap the soul on that target (possibly after removing any wards that would have guarded against such things).
Finally, remember when I said that all of this was for a NAKED pit fiend? Well pit fiends also have a double-treasure value, which means your typical pit fiend has 134,000 gp worth of magic items and other goodies that the pit fiend would carry on his or her person. That includes things like amulets of natural armor, rings of shielding, cloaks of charisma, constitution boosting magic items, etc. These are all things an overlord of hell would have, and unlike the balor, the pit fiend doesn't need frivolous things like weapons unless he just wants to (he's totally proficient with all simple and martial weapons though).
So let's spend 134,000 gp.
+4 Con item = 16,000 gp (+2 Fort / +40 HP)
+4 Cha item = 16,000 gp (+2 to all save DCs)
+2 NA item = 8,000 gp (+2 AC)
Ring of Evasion = 25,000 gp (+Evasion feature)
Ring of Freedom = 40,000 gp (+Freedom of Movement)
Bracers of Armor +4 = 16,000 gp (+4 AC)
Cap of the Free Thinker = 12,000 gp (Roll twice on saves vs mind-affecting)
1,000 gp worth of trinkets such as jewelry, fine clothing, and gaudy nick-nacks.
Using the otherwise standard pit fiend, with a loadout like this the pit fiend cannot be snared, ignores damage-effects on a successful reflex save, has a sustainable 48 AC, rolls twice at +22 when making most Will saves and can re-roll 1/day due to Improved Iron Will, has 390 HP, DC 29 mass hold monster and DC 28 trap the soul.
Really, pit fiends are a robust and well-rounded CR 20 creature, quite worthy of being a BBEG. The fact that the pit fiend comes standard with a CR 19 devil companion (think devils with class levels, templates, etc) is icing on the cake.
Too hard for the CR
- Jabberwock should probably be a couple CR higher.
- Any ghost going against a low level party.
- Dire Lion. Somebody's getting raked.
- Flail Snail. Oh the horrors of trying to use magic on it.
- Demilich. Really? This thing causes tons of party wipes.
- Drow Nobles. Only CR 1 and all those innate magic abilities??!!?
- Banshee. Wail can wipe party with a few bad saves.
Too easy for the CR
- Chromatic/Metallic Dragons
- Hill/Cloud/Stone Giants
- Iron/Stone/Clay Golems. Back in 3.0, they were terrifying with their well-nigh unbeatable DR. Now they are pretty easy.
- Vampires. Opposite of ghosts, vampires are relatively easy for a low level party to kill.
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Actually it's CR 6 (CR 1 + 5 = CR 6). Also, honestly, compared o other CR 5 creatures like the mummy, the warrior is probably the easier enemy for a typical party.Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.
Humanoids with NPC warrior levels. A Gnoll Warrior/10 is CR 5.
Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.
==Aelryinth
It's neither. NPC class CR is level - 2, not 1/2 level. An Orc War10 is CR 8, not 5.
I'm not sure how they interact with the 'key class' on things with racial HD, but generally speaking you shouldn't be using NPC classes to beef up monsters.
Baobhan Sith
Even a high wis character with a class that has good will saves would need an average of around 14 on the die to avoid the Captivating Dance, which is a mass AoE against any PCs that look at her!
Actually it's CR 6 (CR 1 + 5 = CR 6). Also, honestly, compared o other CR 5 creatures like the mummy, the warrior is probably the easier enemy for a typical party.Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.
Humanoids with NPC warrior levels. A Gnoll Warrior/10 is CR 5.
Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.
==Aelryinth
It's neither. NPC class CR is level - 2, not 1/2 level. An Orc War10 is CR 8, not 5.
The bestiary sets the CR at around 5-6. The only thing that suggests that an NPC-classed 10th level warrior is CR 8 is a small paragraph in the Core Rulebook, and anyone who has actually GMed a game above the lowest of levels can tell you that the entirety of the CRB system for it is incredibly borked (statistics, treasure, and CR are horribly off kilter, turning them into treasure pinatas).
There's essentially no difference between NPC-class 10 and *insert monster HD 10* beyond big ability score modifiers and abilities that the NPC class just doesn't have. Things like HD, HP, BAB, Saving Throws, Skills, Feats, Spells, Equipment, etc, all mean the same thing to a Rakshasa or Ogre Magi as they do to a Warrior or Expert.
So at worst, we have a conflict in the rules (bestiary sets NPC levels as +1 CR / 2 levels, CRB sets it at +1 CR / 1 level, but is silent on what to do with multiclassed NPCs), so naturally the wise thing to do would be to go with the one that works better in game. The CRB version is a sad joke, but the Bestiary version produces better balanced and actually usable mechanics. This seems like a no-brainer.
I'm not sure how they interact with the 'key class' on things with racial HD, but generally speaking you shouldn't be using NPC classes to beef up monsters.
Why? Why would you say that? Adding class levels to monsters has been a thing since 3.0 debuted, and there's a whole section in the bestiary devoted to this very thing, so why would adding more HD in the form of NPC levels somehow be a bad thing to do, especially more so than adding templates that often have wildly wonky results (adding the advanced template to anything with a low CR or a high CR generally produces silly results, for example).
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I'm also in agreement that Witchfires are a sick joke. An 8d6 touch attack with a DC 22 save or become vulnerable (+50% damage) to their attack is harsh to begin with (especially combined with their formidable defenses), but if you meet one with the Vital Strike feats, just run for your lives.
The standard witchfire qualifies for vital strike, which allows her to smash someone for 16d6 fire damage as a standard action. Then if you fail a DC 22 Will save after the touch, you're effectively getting smashed for 34d6 fire damage every round thereafter. At CR 9. Yeah...
EDIT: Which is coupled with at-will SLA invisibility, the ability to summon 0-2 will o' whisps, and a +10 Initiative. An invisible incorporeal creature is effectively super-invisible since they don't make sound unless they desire, they have no scent, they don't move objects, and now you can't see them, so they're pretty much certain to get the opening attack, and kill someone on round 1.
Surprise: Witchfire moves up to the party's Fighter under cover of invisibility with a +39 Stealth (and scent, blindsense, and blindsight do nothing) and smashes said warrior for 16d6 (56 average) damage on round 0.
Round 1: A weak-willed character is probably going to fail a DC 22 save at this level, so on the next round, the warrior gets smashed for an average of 84 damage, for a total of 140 damage, then the witchfire sinks into the ground gaining total cover.
Round 2: The witchfire, while chillin' in the ground, becomes invisible again and using its brilliant intellect decides to screw with the party by letting them buff up and get ready to fight, and then just not fighting them, wasting their resources.
Round ??: The witchfire follows the party and waits until they rest. A 16d6 coup de grace is pretty much 100% foolproof.
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The challenge of the Tarrasque is more destroying it before it takes out entire towns/villages/civilizations.
The funny thing is that the tarrasque isn't really even that good for taking out entire towns, villages, and civilizations. It has precious little that actually causes destruction on a massive scale. It would be spending a lot of its time full-attacking individual buildings and then moving along at a snail's pace.
EDIT: A mundane city fire would be harder to deal with and/or evacuate from.
The challenge of the Tarrasque is more destroying it before it takes out entire towns/villages/civilizations.The funny thing is that the tarrasque isn't really even that good for taking out entire towns, villages, and civilizations. It has precious little that actually causes destruction on a massive scale. It would be spending a lot of its time full-attacking individual buildings and then moving along at a snail's pace.
EDIT: A mundane city fire would be harder to deal with and/or evacuate from.
Well, to be honest, mundane fire can do more damage than a hurricane or an F5 tornado, too. And do it on a much larger scale.
I don't think the Tarrasque was meant to be necessarily that good at it; just difficult to kill before it got the job done.
It is not that difficult to take out though. The only hard(varies by GM) part is finding a way to keep it dead which is GM Fiat. Despite being a CR 25 encounter it can be taken out by a level 15 party, maybe lower if the players are good enough.
All the commoners rushing out to defend their city, all holding torches, would provide that fire, don't worry. :-)
If you change the tarrasques feats out it cant destroy things on a massive scale simply due to reach, but no better than any similarly large creature.
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It is not that difficult to take out though. The only hard(varies by GM) part is finding a way to keep it dead which is GM Fiat. Despite being a CR 25 encounter it can be taken out by a level 15 party, maybe lower if the players are good enough.
Speaking from personal experience? All you need is a 10th level party, a ring of acid protection, and creative use of an immovable rod. Incidentally, that same combination can also be used to take out most dragons at about the same level.
Now, let me explain how a Tarrasque is capable of destroying an entire city...
As you said: The issue is keeping it dead. While it won't take out a city on its own, the fires it will unleash from the destruction it causes and all of the fire-using items it knocks over will still do the job. Most cities, even well-constructed ones by those who knew what they were doing, are basically giant fire traps waiting to happen.
However, the human method of assigning blame for large-scale destruction often places the blame for any damage caused by a fire to what started the fire; this is why, in real life, a cow has been repeatedly given credit for burning down Chicago.
So even if the Tarrasque only knocks over a single building, as long as that results in a city-destroying fire the Tarrasque still gets credit.
And that's how a Tarrasque can destroy an entire city. The challenge is not to kill it before it personally destroys every single building, but to kill it before it does enough damage to cause a fire which destroys the city ;)
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However, the human method of assigning blame for large-scale destruction often places the blame for any damage caused by a fire to what started the fire; this is why, in real life, a cow has been repeatedly given credit for burning down Chicago.
So even if the Tarrasque only knocks over a single building, as long as that results in a city-destroying fire the Tarrasque still gets credit.
And that's how a Tarrasque can destroy an entire city. The challenge is not to kill it before it personally destroys every single building, but to kill it before it does enough damage to cause a fire which destroys the city ;)
Because of this, I will forever envision the tarrasque's roar as sounding like a massive...
Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
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Thought I was in a Skull and Shackles thread at first, since all the beginning ones were from there.
The one I would say is the Dire tiger. Its to hits and damage far exceed those that can be summoned on the same list.
Yeah...but it's defenses are so abysmal they more than make up for that offense. AC 17 and a +5 Will Save plus no immunities, damage reduction, or resistances of any kind are terrible for a CR 8.
Yeah...but it's defenses are so abysmal they more than make up for that offense. AC 17 and a +5 Will Save plus no immunities, damage reduction, or resistances of any kind are terrible for a CR 8.Thought I was in a Skull and Shackles thread at first, since all the beginning ones were from there.
The one I would say is the Dire tiger. Its to hits and damage far exceed those that can be summoned on the same list.
Tiger-types are shock troop encounters. They generally rely on ambush and heavy burst-damage but fold easily and are forced to retreat almost immediately. They are most dangerous if they can wear down a party over multiple hit and run encounters.
In the case of summons, they don't have the convenience of being able to run away to stealth and come back later, and so they are more of an offensive summon but are lacking as meat-shields.
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Dark Folk, I think the Dark Folk, especially the Dark Stalker, are under CR'd. The Dark Folk get the 'See Through Darkness' special ability and the Stalker has Deeper Darkness as an at-will ability. So you could have one Stalker repeatedly spam out Deeper Darkness while the Dark Creepers run around shanking people.
For me, the Dark Folk function well as boogeymen.
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Yeah...but it's defenses are so abysmal they more than make up for that offense. AC 17 and a +5 Will Save plus no immunities, damage reduction, or resistances of any kind are terrible for a CR 8.Thought I was in a Skull and Shackles thread at first, since all the beginning ones were from there.
The one I would say is the Dire tiger. Its to hits and damage far exceed those that can be summoned on the same list.Tiger-types are shock troop encounters. They generally rely on ambush and heavy burst-damage but fold easily and are forced to retreat almost immediately. They are most dangerous if they can wear down a party over multiple hit and run encounters.
In the case of summons, they don't have the convenience of being able to run away to stealth and come back later, and so they are more of an offensive summon but are lacking as meat-shields.
Agreed. I was just noting them as CR appropriate.
I'm also in agreement that Witchfires are a sick joke. An 8d6 touch attack with a DC 22 save or become vulnerable (+50% damage) to their attack is harsh to begin with (especially combined with their formidable defenses), but if you meet one with the Vital Strike feats, just run for your lives.
The standard witchfire qualifies for vital strike, which allows her to smash someone for 16d6 fire damage as a standard action. Then if you fail a DC 22 Will save after the touch, you're effectively getting smashed for 34d6 fire damage every round thereafter. At CR 9. Yeah...
EDIT: Which is coupled with at-will SLA invisibility, the ability to summon 0-2 will o' whisps, and a +10 Initiative. An invisible incorporeal creature is effectively super-invisible since they don't make sound unless they desire, they have no scent, they don't move objects, and now you can't see them, so they're pretty much certain to get the opening attack, and kill someone on round 1.
Surprise: Witchfire moves up to the party's Fighter under cover of invisibility with a +39 Stealth (and scent, blindsense, and blindsight do nothing) and smashes said warrior for 16d6 (56 average) damage on round 0.
Round 1: A weak-willed character is probably going to fail a DC 22 save at this level, so on the next round, the warrior gets smashed for an average of 84 damage, for a total of 140 damage, then the witchfire sinks into the ground gaining total cover.
Round 2: The witchfire, while chillin' in the ground, becomes invisible again and using its brilliant intellect decides to screw with the party by letting them buff up and get ready to fight, and then just not fighting them, wasting their resources.
Round ??: The witchfire follows the party and waits until they rest. A 16d6 coup de grace is pretty much 100% foolproof.
Giving monsters feats that they should have to make them more scary can be just harsh. Some monsters are built without them for fluff purposes. Example: the 3.5 Tarrasque took Toughness six times in favor of better feats, like Improved Crit for each of its attacks, or literally anything else.
Also, one could argue that the Witchfire's appearance might ruin its invisibility as a matter of course. Invisibility works on light sources but never the light they emit, and it would be pretty hard to imagine "a fiery being that emits no light." To be fair, the party wouldn't know what this roughly cylindrical pillar of green flickering light was until it reached out a hand and touched one of them, but still, it would likely not gain any real stealth help from invisibility. Further, one could also argue that incorporeality doesn't necessarily foil Blindsense/Blindsight under strict RAW.
Lastly, that last round, while super effective, is the kind of thing most incorporeal creatures can do, just not as well. They'd probably have to whack-a-mole their head up a few times before finding a safe place to pop up and watch the party from, a head+ sized rock for example. Then follow, etc. The only reason this doesn't happen is because if the monster did this, there would be a GM in the real world suddenly feeling very, very lonely.
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Quicklings
Really low CR
Espically when you tack on class levels and/or when encountered in groups
31 Dex, faster than any PC pretty much ever sneek attack on every attack pretty much garonteed improved evasion, uncanny dodge, spell like abilities, natural invisibility
You know how many times my players have tried to convince me to let them play one by buying off the levels
And more than once I have added class levels to one to make an arcane trickster recurring bad guy
Nearly impossible to not be reoccurring
An the CR 16 robot, annihilator
5 hits or range increment 200ft 8d6 damage guns, (touch attack within that first range increment)
250 hp and a force field
Can fly
Fast healing
And all this would just be challenging or even just mildly interesting were it not for the hardness 10
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However, the human method of assigning blame for large-scale destruction often places the blame for any damage caused by a fire to what started the fire; this is why, in real life, a cow has been repeatedly given credit for burning down Chicago.
So even if the Tarrasque only knocks over a single building, as long as that results in a city-destroying fire the Tarrasque still gets credit.
And that's how a Tarrasque can destroy an entire city. The challenge is not to kill it before it personally destroys every single building, but to kill it before it does enough damage to cause a fire which destroys the city ;)
Because of this, I will forever envision the tarrasque's roar as sounding like a massive...
Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Actually it's quite simple for the Tarrasque to destroy a small town, it just uses Trample. ....Oh it doesn't have trample. WHY DOESN'T IT HAVE TRAMPLE?!?!?!!!?!? Oh well, at least its natural weapons are treated as Adamantine. Hmm? What do you mean IT LOST THAT?!?!!?
Well, fine then, one could say that the Tarrasque is one of very very few creatures that can perform Combat Maneuvers on buildings. It's certainly big enough. For one building, Trip. For the town, Rush+Charge+Overrun. Aaaaaand there's 300 feet of buildings gone. For the next ten rounds it does the same to 80 feet per round, followed by another 300. That should bring down Sandpoint, or maybe even Magnimar, in about an hour. (I don't know how big Magnimar is.)
Or perhaps it can treat buildings like opponents and can thus use the Awesome Blow feat on them. (Insert huff and puff joke here.)
Though, I wonder, have you ever really looked at the Tarrasque, I mean Really looked at it? If you look super closely, you'll notice that it's covered in a very fine layer of fluff. And it's that fluff that allows it to murder its way through towns like a wrecking ball with teeth shot out of a railgun.
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However, the human method of assigning blame for large-scale destruction often places the blame for any damage caused by a fire to what started the fire; this is why, in real life, a cow has been repeatedly given credit for burning down Chicago.
So even if the Tarrasque only knocks over a single building, as long as that results in a city-destroying fire the Tarrasque still gets credit.
And that's how a Tarrasque can destroy an entire city. The challenge is not to kill it before it personally destroys every single building, but to kill it before it does enough damage to cause a fire which destroys the city ;)
Because of this, I will forever envision the tarrasque's roar as sounding like a massive...
Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Actually it's quite simple for the Tarrasque to destroy a small town, it just uses Trample. ....Oh it doesn't have trample. WHY DOESN'T IT HAVE TRAMPLE?!?!?!!!?!? Oh well, at least its natural weapons are treated as Adamantine. Hmm? What do you mean IT LOST THAT?!?!!?
Well, fine then, one could say that the Tarrasque is one of very very few creatures that can perform Combat Maneuvers on buildings. It's certainly big enough. For one building, Trip. For the town, Rush+Charge+Overrun. Aaaaaand there's 300 feet of buildings gone. For the next ten rounds it does the same to 80 feet per round, followed by another 300. That should bring down Sandpoint, or maybe even Magnimar, in about an hour. (I don't know how big Magnimar is.)
Or perhaps it can treat buildings like opponents and can thus use the Awesome Blow feat on them. (Insert huff and puff joke here.)
Though, I wonder, have you ever really looked at the Tarrasque, I mean Really looked at it? If you look super closely, you'll notice that it's covered in a very fine layer of fluff. And it's that fluff that allows it to murder its way through towns like a wrecking ball with teeth shot out of a railgun.
It also has a leaping ability. Which means it gets a bonus for acrobatics tests for jumping. Such as jumping on houses.
So, it's more like the ever-hungry cow-kangaroo of the city-destroyers ;)
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So, it's more like the ever-hungry cow-kangaroo of the city-destroyers ;)
"Moooooooooooooooooo! Mate!"
Agreed. I was just noting them as CR appropriate.Yeah...but it's defenses are so abysmal they more than make up for that offense. AC 17 and a +5 Will Save plus no immunities, damage reduction, or resistances of any kind are terrible for a CR 8.Thought I was in a Skull and Shackles thread at first, since all the beginning ones were from there.
The one I would say is the Dire tiger. Its to hits and damage far exceed those that can be summoned on the same list.Tiger-types are shock troop encounters. They generally rely on ambush and heavy burst-damage but fold easily and are forced to retreat almost immediately. They are most dangerous if they can wear down a party over multiple hit and run encounters.
In the case of summons, they don't have the convenience of being able to run away to stealth and come back later, and so they are more of an offensive summon but are lacking as meat-shields.
Yeah, I was agreeing/supporting you. If I quote your post, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm arguing with you, y'know? :P
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I can't get the Tarrasque wrestler out of my head... I see it clapping its elbow before jumping so the audience will know it's going to elbow the town hall...
Nymphs are really nasty for a CR 6 creature.
Noticed this when I threw a mixed batch of CR 6 fey at my PCs and the nymph was vastly more effective than the rest.
DC 21 Fort vs blind for the whole party most likely takes the wizard and rogue out of the game, and then stunning glance at the same DC against whoever saved... Also, there is no immunity to the aura, so the party is saving against blindness EVERY ROUND.
Nymphs in 3.5 were a pretty good race for a druid...
It is not that difficult to take out though. The only hard(varies by GM) part is finding a way to keep it dead which is GM Fiat. Despite being a CR 25 encounter it can be taken out by a level 15 party, maybe lower if the players are good enough.
Speaking from personal experience? All you need is a 10th level party, a ring of acid protection, and creative use of an immovable rod. Incidentally, that same combination can also be used to take out most dragons at about the same level.
Now, let me explain how a Tarrasque is capable of destroying an entire city...
As you said: The issue is keeping it dead. While it won't take out a city on its own, the fires it will unleash from the destruction it causes and all of the fire-using items it knocks over will still do the job. Most cities, even well-constructed ones by those who knew what they were doing, are basically giant fire traps waiting to happen.
However, the human method of assigning blame for large-scale destruction often places the blame for any damage caused by a fire to what started the fire; this is why, in real life, a cow has been repeatedly given credit for burning down Chicago.
So even if the Tarrasque only knocks over a single building, as long as that results in a city-destroying fire the Tarrasque still gets credit.
And that's how a Tarrasque can destroy an entire city. The challenge is not to kill it before it personally destroys every single building, but to kill it before it does enough damage to cause a fire which destroys the city ;)
In our world with electricity I can see how destroying a building might cause a fire, but in a technology period without it, I don't see it unless it attacks at night, and an oil lamp is knocked over, but I dont see that burning an entire city down.
Dark Folk, I think the Dark Folk, especially the Dark Stalker, are under CR'd. The Dark Folk get the 'See Through Darkness' special ability and the Stalker has Deeper Darkness as an at-will ability. So you could have one Stalker repeatedly spam out Deeper Darkness while the Dark Creepers run around shanking people.
For me, the Dark Folk function well as boogeymen.
My favorite race that does not get enough love from Paizo.. :)
Well, you see, medieval towns often had thatched roofs. Meaning, dry twigs held together by and dunked in tar. A single oil lamp IS enough for truly catastrophic fires.
In our world with electricity I can see how destroying a building might cause a fire, but in a technology period without it, I don't see it unless it attacks at night, and an oil lamp is knocked over, but I dont see that burning an entire city down.It is not that difficult to take out though. The only hard(varies by GM) part is finding a way to keep it dead which is GM Fiat. Despite being a CR 25 encounter it can be taken out by a level 15 party, maybe lower if the players are good enough.
Speaking from personal experience? All you need is a 10th level party, a ring of acid protection, and creative use of an immovable rod. Incidentally, that same combination can also be used to take out most dragons at about the same level.
Now, let me explain how a Tarrasque is capable of destroying an entire city...
As you said: The issue is keeping it dead. While it won't take out a city on its own, the fires it will unleash from the destruction it causes and all of the fire-using items it knocks over will still do the job. Most cities, even well-constructed ones by those who knew what they were doing, are basically giant fire traps waiting to happen.
However, the human method of assigning blame for large-scale destruction often places the blame for any damage caused by a fire to what started the fire; this is why, in real life, a cow has been repeatedly given credit for burning down Chicago.
So even if the Tarrasque only knocks over a single building, as long as that results in a city-destroying fire the Tarrasque still gets credit.
And that's how a Tarrasque can destroy an entire city. The challenge is not to kill it before it personally destroys every single building, but to kill it before it does enough damage to cause a fire which destroys the city ;)
Believe it or not, but the discovery of electricity actually reduced the number of city-destroying fires. Some cities in ancient times were constructed almost entirely out of stone simply because people got tired of them burning to the ground, and despite that some cities using heavy amounts of stone (such as Rome) managed to burn to the ground anyway. And Tokyo gained the nickname Matchstick City because of the sheer number of times it burned down.
One thing to keep in mind is that their society uses fire for lighting, heating, and cooking. And cooking was done a lot during the day time, since that's when people were awake. In addition, most buildings are going to feature massive amounts of flammable materials in their construction (and, in real life, most homes still do).
So unless they are using Eberron-levels of magic items, it's safe to say there's a lot of fires throughout the city and it's probably going to burn down once the Tarrasque comes to town.
My favorite race that does not get enough love from Paizo.. :)Dark Folk, I think the Dark Folk, especially the Dark Stalker, are under CR'd. The Dark Folk get the 'See Through Darkness' special ability and the Stalker has Deeper Darkness as an at-will ability. So you could have one Stalker repeatedly spam out Deeper Darkness while the Dark Creepers run around shanking people.
For me, the Dark Folk function well as boogeymen.
Probably because they can be really scary opponents and they're kind of locked in a bit into the 'nimble shadow warrior' role.
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Well, you see, medieval towns often had thatched roofs. Meaning, dry twigs held together by and dunked in tar. A single oil lamp IS enough for truly catastrophic fires.
This is pretty much why in my campaign settings bricks and slates are the most common building materials, because in a fantastic world where 5th level wizards could decide to go postal, making buildings out of flame-retardant materials is probably a good idea.
The castles and such tend to have cool defenses vs aerial magic bombardments as well. :)
Still, as pointed out above, while it helps, it's nowhere near the kind of immunity to fire disasters one might have hoped for.
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In Ashiel's world, Castle delves you!
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In old Soviet russia, door kicks in you!
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Yeah, I was agreeing/supporting you. If I quote your post, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm arguing with you, y'know? :PYeah, I know. just clarifying my position. :)
Riddle Me This:
I just quoted you both... Who am I arguing against?
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Yeah, I was agreeing/supporting you. If I quote your post, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm arguing with you, y'know? :PYeah, I know. just clarifying my position. :)Riddle Me This:
I just quoted you both... Who am I arguing against?
Everyone. Or no one.
Or maybe that fish over there.
Mosquito swarm. This thing is deadly if you don't have particular spells available. I adjust the CR accordingly (+1 unless the party has readily-available AoE damage).
A million times this, especially since they're immune to weapon damage and they fly faster than most 3rd level PCs can run. Amazing TPK potential for a party that's low on AoE blaster casters or didn't have the money or foresight to buy a crate of acid flasks and alchemist's fire.
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Mosquito swarm. This thing is deadly if you don't have particular spells available. I adjust the CR accordingly (+1 unless the party has readily-available AoE damage).A million times this, especially since they're immune to weapon damage and they fly faster than most 3rd level PCs can run. Amazing TPK potential for a party that's low on AoE blaster casters or didn't have the money or foresight to buy a crate of acid flasks and alchemist's fire.
** spoiler omitted **
Finally got around to actually looking at those things, and OH MY HOLY DAWNFLOWER!! How the hell does a swarm of mosquitoes deal 2d6 damage plus 1d6 bleed????? Where are these mosquitoes spawning?? The Worldwound?
Cue the science music!!!
According to science, it takes around 400,000 mosquitoes all pulling their maximum capacity of blood to kill a human, but that's an ungodly number of insects (even minuscule ones) to attack an individual human. I'm having a bit of trouble tracking down real mosquito swarm numbers, but most of them probably aren't that big. Hell, the human body can't even fit that many mosquitoes on it at one time. My rough estimation is that an average human body could fit about 18,500 mosquitoes on it at any one time, assuming you're fully shaved and naked. Meaning you'd need to be Fully Covered in a new layer of mosquitoes 21 and a half times before you've lost enough blood to actually die (assuming you stand there and take it without killing any of them). As the internet is also not very forthcoming with how long it takes for a mosquito to fully feed, I'd put my estimation that this whole process, if done in as unrealistically efficient a manner as possible, would take probably about 20-30 minutes. Though, if after about the first 15 you said "screw this," you'd probably want to go to a hospital immediately and inject their entire annual supply of malaria vaccine.
Oh! And turns out getting away from them wouldn't be too hard either, since the average mosquito's top speed caps at around 1.5 miles per hour. Meaning (Mathmathmathmath) the swarm would have a fly speed of 15 feet IF you round up. (Real number is 13.2 feet.)
Yep, pretty sure Golarion mosquitoes are from the Worldwound. Or at least Hell. Since a relatively small swarm of them can outrun most medium-sized prey, and murder the hell out of said prey in a matter of under 30 seconds.