well.. for the paladin.. bust him.. if he wants to do something stupid.. make him fall for it ( after a warning of course )..
as for the Tanuki... wow your players are just asking for trouble. ( I just read the monster entry on the d20 site ):
Quotes from their description :
Jolly tricksters, tanukis love deceiving humanoids and other intelligent creatures. This mischief is usually harmless, but can turn spiteful in some situations. Tanuki mischief becomes spiteful to those who defile nature. Though rare, violent and morbid tanukis occasionally walk the lands, bringing suffering to those they encounter. Filled with spite, these evil tanukis pull sadistic pranks, and horror stories tell of tanukis killing old women and tricking their husbands into eating soups made from their flesh.
So your players are looking for evil Tanuki to blow up a city?? mwuhahaaha
I'd give em what they ask for. Charge em out the wahzoo for it.. then unlease the fury of Tanuki unborn on the campaign ( that they asked for ). Suddenly you have a Tanuki Confederation designed to blow up cities ( for ransom/ lols/ whatever reason ).
Maybe next time they will not give a GM a monkey with a loaded gun to unleash on the world.
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well.. for the paladin.. bust him.. if he wants to do something stupid.. make him fall for it ( after a warning of course )..
as for the Tanuki... wow your players are just asking for trouble. ( I just read the monster entry on the d20 site ):
Quotes from their description :
Jolly tricksters, tanukis love deceiving humanoids and other intelligent creatures. This mischief is usually harmless, but can turn spiteful in some situations. Tanuki mischief becomes spiteful to those who defile nature. Though rare, violent and morbid tanukis occasionally walk the lands, bringing suffering to those they encounter. Filled with spite, these evil tanukis pull sadistic pranks, and horror stories tell of tanukis killing old women and tricking their husbands into eating soups made from their flesh.
So your players are looking for evil Tanuki to blow up a city?? mwuhahaaha
I'd give em what they ask for. Charge em out the wahzoo for it.. then unlease the fury of Tanuki unborn on the campaign ( that they asked for ). Suddenly you have a Tanuki Confederation designed to blow up cities ( for ransom/ lols/ whatever reason ).
Maybe next time they will not give a GM a monkey with a loaded gun to unleash on the world.
well the pathfinder tanuki insert.
Jolly tricksters, tanukis love deceiving humanoids and other intelligent creatures. This mischief is usually harmless, but can turn spiteful in some situations.
Popular folklore stories claim tanukis are the transformed souls of tools and housewares that were used for more than 100 years, A MYTH THAT PROBABLY RESULTS FROM TANUKIS' ABILITY TO MAGICALLY CREATE OR ALTER OBJECTS.
Mostly encountered in disguise, tanukis enjoy visiting humanoid settlements and interacting with the people. They usually visit taverns and eateries, joining in feasts and celebrations whenever possible. Tanukis always change their disguises and rarely visit the same town twice in the same month.
Tanuki mischief becomes spiteful to those who defile nature. Hunters who kill for sport or those who log trees from the forest without seeding new ones find their weapons and tools transformed into bowls and teacups. Tanukis also put more effort into their pranks when the target is a braggart, a bully, or someone of poor moral character. They like to prank brooding types as well, always hoping to bring a smile to the hard faces of such dour folk. Because of their trickster nature, tanukis get along with many fey creatures. Some tanukis even deal well with spirits, often helping them pass from this world.
Though rare, violent and morbid tanukis occasionally walk the lands, bringing suffering to those they encounter. Filled with spite, these evil tanukis pull sadistic pranks, and horror stories tell of tanukis killing old women and tricking their husbands into eating soups made from their flesh.
A tanuki is 5 feet tall and weighs 180 pounds.
The Area I put in caps that states that they have an ability to create magical objects or alter them. They took that concept and ran with it, and when I said they didnt have a rule for that were unable to accept it as anything other than me as the GM shutting down their creative genius.
The compound is evil and they were suppose to survey and sneak it and essentially find targets for a much larger force that would help the PC's fight here.
If he wants to say he's an inquisitor and ignore the downsides of the paladin, then he can very well ignore their up sides as well. He is an inquisitor after all right?
Enforcing the paladin code AND anything the inquisitor requires or is flavor wise isn't multiple personalities. It's multiple responsibilities. Responsibilities he took on when picking the paladin levels. It's more like a job than a multiple personalities in fact. I.e. More power (in this case 2 classes worth of perks) more responsibilities to uphold.
As for the Tanukis. It's easy for the Gm to go, "While possible that some Tanuki know how to make magical gunpowder, these ones seemed to have had missed magical gunpowder day. They do, however, offer to make you a ring that can turn your clothing a hot pink."
While you said they cried GM power abuse, the very fact that they may have called it a "campaign work around" makes it seem like they aren't actually interested in involving themselves in the story or actually RPing in any shape or form.
As others have said, I'd suggest starting a new campaign and ousting the trouble players. Let the non-trouble makers have fun and then you can get back to telling stories and GMing.
Just my opinion though.
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A MYTH THAT PROBABLY RESULTS FROM TANUKIS' ABILITY TO MAGICALLY CREATE OR ALTER OBJECTS.
To magically create or alter objects does not mean to create magical objects... It means the Tanuki can use magical powers to create mundane objects or alter mundane objects. No magical gunpowder.
As for digging, just have a patrol of the city guard spot them while they are at it, but have one of the guards escape. If they keep digging, more guards return along with a bunch of retired heroes or what not and beat em up good.
Finally for teh paladin-inquisitor, Ièll go with most on here and say Let him fall!
Specifically, they have major creation 3/day (up to 1 cubic foot). Good luck persuading them to make you gunpowder, especially since they'd have to make it a grain at a time...
Specifically, they have major creation 3/day (up to 1 cubic foot). Good luck persuading them to make you gunpowder, especially since they'd have to make it a grain at a time...
it can't just be 1 giant grain?
XD
Well, no, it wouldn't be one grain at a time. It could be a block of the stuff... but it would take 10 minutes per cast, and the material only last for 7 hours before disappearing. So, if they where planning on sapping a wall, sure, I could go with that. Although the move earth ability doesn't create tunnels, so for sapping purposes, have the druid and someone with Know(Engineering) to go in, lay the charges (using burrow, of course), and hopefully leave a detonator of some sort, to blow the charge. That, I can see. But not knowing the scale of the compound, and the idea of moving a cubic mile of earth just being silly (as ye could just have the compound collapse into the hole, killing most inside of it) I can't really give any options that you may be able to recommend to the players instead of the current one.
And while they seem to be following the idea of recon that I and some of my fellow adventurers have used in the past (to our chagrin), as a new GM, I have little I could advise ye on in this matter regarding yer two wayward players. I've played with similar personalities in the past, that tried to bend the rules of the game to their favor, but such players rarely lasted long in such games I've played in, though from their choice or the DM's, I know not.
But it does give me an idea for a campaign setting I've been thinking on, involving a society based on ancient Rome, with the use of legions and such, but made of halflings and gnomes. The move earth spell just made me think of a scene where the adventurers (not sure if they would start as part of the society, or explorers from outside the nation) could watch as a legion builds a fortification, with the engineering corps riding ahead of the main body to use shape earth to make the raised earth foundation, and after the main body arrives, have some of the troops plant seeds or cutting around the perimeter of the area, so druids can use a ritual to make them grow into a stockade of living wood, with the soldiers helping to shape said trees as they grow.
Personally... I echo those who say boot the two problem players. Players like this will never really get better.
That said, if you're up for it, try to explain to them that, hey guys, this isn't a PC vs DM game. It's cooperative story telling structured with game mechanics to prevent Mary Sues from Godmoding the $#!7 out of the story.
If they don't get that, and don't tone it down, talk to your 4 good players about booting the two. Make it a point that you aren't having fun, and they're just trying to steal the spot light and hog all the glory (seeing themselves as the Big Damn Protagonists of the story while the rest of the party is the B-team). If they're having problems with these guys too, then deliver the ultimatum.
This is your table. You are the GM. You are god of the entire Pathfinder multiverse. They are being disruptive of your multiverse. They can tone it down, or find another table.
In fact, if they're that disruptive that you're thinking of scrapping the campaign (let the other 4 know that too), tell them that as well.
Also... Paladin/Inquisitor of Iomedae? Much of what I've heard equals Iomedae B!7(# slapping them and cancelling the lease they have on her Divine grace.
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I was wondering about that: was he really selling an ally into slavery, or was he helping an ally infiltrate an enemy position. Using slavery as a cover to bring down slavers is hardly an evil act.As to the 'selling an ally to slavery' part, if they were doing that as part of infiltration of the enemy camp, I think a paladin could be ok with that as long as the goal of taking down the slavers is a focus.
If it's part of a ruse, AND if the NPC in question agrees of their own free will to the plan, it's not a violation. Even with that, though, the paladin really should volunteer to play the part of the slave unless there's a very good reason why that wouldn't work. I wouldn't call neglecting that part an alignment violation, but it should get the paladin a mild note from their deity about how they can do better next time.
Essentially there was an npc traveling with the party that another npc group wanted that has military and political clout. We shall call them group A. She was essentially a Helen of Troy type, that group A's kidnap attempts failed because of some of the party members and the npc not being an idiot nor a helpless damsel type.
So the paladin to get a castle and fort of his own was contemplating selling the girl npc to group A. By act of betrayal and treachery. This fort he concluded would help him in fighting, especially in a possible upcoming battle with the group who controls another compound they were planning to blow up, we will call that group, group B. With the player characters group being group C.
So betraying a friend and ally to another faction to be little more than a harem slave, this act of course to be perpetrated by a paladin of Iomadae, that has a level of inquisitor...
I was wondering about that: was he really selling an ally into slavery, or was he helping an ally infiltrate an enemy position. Using slavery as a cover to bring down slavers is hardly an evil act.As to the 'selling an ally to slavery' part, if they were doing that as part of infiltration of the enemy camp, I think a paladin could be ok with that as long as the goal of taking down the slavers is a focus.
If it's part of a ruse, AND if the NPC in question agrees of their own free will to the plan, it's not a violation. Even with that, though, the paladin really should volunteer to play the part of the slave unless there's a very good reason why that wouldn't work. I wouldn't call neglecting that part an alignment violation, but it should get the paladin a mild note from their deity about how they can do better next time.
Essentially there was an npc traveling with the party that another npc group wanted that has military and political clout. We shall call them group A. She was essentially a Helen of Troy type, that group A's kidnap attempts failed because of some of the party members and the npc not being an idiot nor a helpless damsel type.
So the paladin to get a castle and fort of his own was contemplating selling the girl npc to group A. By act of betrayal and treachery. This fort he concluded would help him in fighting, especially in a possible upcoming battle with the group who controls another compound they were planning to blow up, we will call that group, group B. With the player characters group being group C.
So betraying a friend and ally to another faction to be little more than a harem slave, this act of course to be perpetrated by a paladin of Iomadae, that has a level of inquisitor...
Yeah... No.
Iomedae don't roll like that.
Inquisitors don't have license to do whatever the hell they want. They do whatever the hell they want for their faith. Iomedae does not suffer slavery (wasn't she the patron saint of Andoran or something?). Regardless of "greater good" or whatever... Divine classes that gain their powers from deities do not get the luxury of "greater good" arguments. At least when that deity is someone like Iomedae.
He'd get pimp slapped and have his Paladin powers taken away. Atonement definitely required. I'd rule it that he'd lose his inquisitor abilitites as well. After all, he went against his faith's tenants.
If he wants to argue you're limiting him or being a dick, remind him that it's in the mechanics of the classes. He is officially an Ex-Inquisitor AND an Ex-Paladin.
If he's done more selfish stuff like that, especially without seeking Atonement spell, I'd start having the church hunt him down. The inquisitors specifically. They specifically hunt heretics and those who oppose their faith.
Edit: If he wants to behave like a fighter, or an Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier, have him re-roll. Trade the levels one to one and let him re-assign his ability scores if he has to. As is, he is NOT playing a paladin, nor an Inquisitor (A class I am extremely intimate with, as it's my usual class I wind up playing).
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He has since dropped the level of inquisitor for an additional paladin level. Also gave up the notion of trying to sell any allies for benefit. Though the two still seem a little miffed that the tanuki greater creation does let them amass magical gun powder. The other 4 players have been laying plans and conducted a successful recon of the enemy fortress to include weapon emplacements and troop strength and equipment. The battle is playing out more like a Normandy type battle that will be a slugging match with the players doing acts of sabotage and engaging choice enemy forces to achieve victory on a large scale battle.
We left off with them trying to figure out with the forces of an allied army how to best attack an enemy fortification. Shooting for Saturday as the next play date.
honestly just letting this go wont work
the inquisitor level being dropped doesn't change anything
the fact that you even had this discussion means he doesnt understand how paladins OR inquisitors work
hell any lawful good character
him and the other player hiding things from you is simply unacceptable
they want to play a godmode sandbox game and thats not what dnd is
the crap about playing neverwinter and having any idea of how to play dnd is just...garbage
ive played neverwinter
it teaches you how stats work, but it doesn't teach you how the game works at all
another issue is they don't understand why a GM exists
honestly if my players started acting this way, i would just tell them to step outside, explain to the players that don't do crap like argue with me and hide stuff from me that i'm removing them from the campaign and they were killed in the middle of the night, reward the other players with their gear, and then proceed to walk outside and tell them that they are no longer welcome at my gaming table
but i guess i am a bit of a newer DM
honestly they aren't worth trashing the campaign for, but getting rid of them is for the best
stuff will come up again sooner or later, and it is really tiring
it is going to end up ruining the game for all the players if you allow them to continue playing, because they will continue doing crap like this.
its better to deal with the issue now than wait until it happens again
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honestly just letting this go wont work
the inquisitor level being dropped doesn't change anything
the fact that you even had this discussion means he doesnt understand how paladins OR inquisitors work
hell any lawful good characterhim and the other player hiding things from you is simply unacceptable
they want to play a godmode sandbox game and thats not what dnd isthe crap about playing neverwinter and having any idea of how to play dnd is just...garbage
ive played neverwinter
it teaches you how stats work, but it doesn't teach you how the game works at all
another issue is they don't understand why a GM existshonestly if my players started acting this way, i would just tell them to step outside, explain to the players that don't do crap like argue with me and hide stuff from me that i'm removing them from the campaign and they were killed in the middle of the night, reward the other players with their gear, and then proceed to walk outside and tell them that they are no longer welcome at my gaming table
but i guess i am a bit of a newer DM
honestly they aren't worth trashing the campaign for, but getting rid of them is for the best
stuff will come up again sooner or later, and it is really tiring
it is going to end up ruining the game for all the players if you allow them to continue playing, because they will continue doing crap like this.
its better to deal with the issue now than wait until it happens again
gonna talk with the rest of the players and see if they can keep them on the straight and narrow, or if they even want to try. Either way we want to hash it out as a group if we can.
Change locations of where you play and don't tell the two troublemakers. I have done that before and it worked out quite well.
In all seriousness, try and explain to the two troublemakers that you aren't sabotaging their ideas, you are trying to help them by guiding them to a useful resolution rather than waste everyone's time with something that has no chance of being successful. They aren't the only players at the table, and you have to take everyone's enjoyment of the game to heart. Good luck!
One of the things I do when things appear to be going down a bad course like this is just say 'roll' to the players.
The paladin asks if he'll suffer for selling an NPC into slavery for money - if he/she doesn't have the common sense to realize this is an issue, have them roll a knowledge:religion check. Success means they know their religion considers it wrong, failure means they don't know. Then let them proceed and suffer the consequences.
As to the gunpowder issue, same thing. So, you've read in a handbook that these creatures exist and have magical gunpowder, roll a knowledge check (Dungeoneering on the creature, alchemy or similar on the powder, Engineering on the digging/explosion, history on the strategy itself, local on the ability dig this much undetected, etc.). If they fail, you can tell them their characters do not know X (X=missed roll part). If they succeed on this skill challenge, let them try. After spinning their wheels sufficiently or realizing the cost, they'll give it up. Or if they get through it all and start to implement the plan, it'll be exciting when sentries stumble across their explosives dump with a torch in hand - Boom! Goodbye gazillion gold.
As long as you're not holding back information, let them dig their own grave.
Has anyone else had strange player problems?
How has everyone else dealt with them?
Did the problems originate from players trying to break the system/ find loop holes and work arounds? Did they come from a misreading or lack of knowledge?
Yes, I've had such players. First, I catch the error. Then, I explain it to them. Then, I move the action on, over their protestations. If they get the picture, then we continue. If not, they're booted from the game.
That's it, that's all.
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well the pathfinder tanuki insert.
Jolly tricksters, tanukis love deceiving humanoids and other intelligent creatures. This mischief is usually harmless, but can turn spiteful in some situations.
Popular folklore stories claim tanukis are the transformed souls of tools and housewares that were used for more than 100 years, A MYTH THAT PROBABLY RESULTS FROM TANUKIS' ABILITY TO MAGICALLY CREATE OR ALTER OBJECTS.
Jolly tricksters, TANUKIS LOVE DECEIVING HUMANOIDS AND OTHER INTELLIGENT CREATURES. This mischief is usually harmless, but can turn spiteful in some situations.
Popular folklore stories claim tanukis are the transformed souls of tools and housewares that were used for more than 100 years, a myth that probably results from tanukis' ability to magically create or alter objects.Fixed that for you.
"Yes, you want special, magical gunpowder from the Tanukis, yes? Oh, most definitely, we can make this for you. But you'll have to help. First, take this sack. Go over by that hill, and dig. Fill the sack with dirt, and bring it to us Tanukis. Then, give it to us, where we will perform the secret gun-powder ritual and turn it into a sack of Magic Tanuki Gun-Powder. This is very secretive and magical! It will be very expensive. Then you must take the sack to where you want to use it. Do NOT open the sack! Opening the sack will cause it to explode! Once you place the sack, go far, far away, and say the magic phrase ("Owa Tafu Liam"). Then BOOM!"
What do you think, 1,000 gp for a sack of dirt?
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well the pathfinder tanuki insert.
Jolly tricksters, tanukis love deceiving humanoids and other intelligent creatures. This mischief is usually harmless, but can turn spiteful in some situations.
Popular folklore stories claim tanukis are the transformed souls of tools and housewares that were used for more than 100 years, A MYTH THAT PROBABLY RESULTS FROM TANUKIS' ABILITY TO MAGICALLY CREATE OR ALTER OBJECTS.Jolly tricksters, TANUKIS LOVE DECEIVING HUMANOIDS AND OTHER INTELLIGENT CREATURES. This mischief is usually harmless, but can turn spiteful in some situations.
Popular folklore stories claim tanukis are the transformed souls of tools and housewares that were used for more than 100 years, a myth that probably results from tanukis' ability to magically create or alter objects.Fixed that for you.
"Yes, you want special, magical gunpowder from the Tanukis, yes? Oh, most definitely, we can make this for you. But you'll have to help. First, take this sack. Go over by that hill, and dig. Fill the sack with dirt, and bring it to us Tanukis. Then, give it to us, where we will perform the secret gun-powder ritual and turn it into a sack of Magic Tanuki Gun-Powder. This is very secretive and magical! It will be very expensive. Then you must take the sack to where you want to use it. Do NOT open the sack! Opening the sack will cause it to explode! Once you place the sack, go far, far away, and say the magic phrase ("Owa Tafu Liam"). Then BOOM!"
What do you think, 1,000 gp for a sack of dirt?
lol while that would be funny, I am trying to not be a jerk.
largely I just want them to understand that..1. their overall plan was impractical (large scale excavation in a day that goes unnoticed by an army?
2. Magical gunpower? That can somehow be made because they read the monster notes and description, which is funny to say mostly fluff.
3. When I introduce creatures and monsters, they shouldnt try to thumb through their books (beastiary's) to see how they can use or defeat them.
4. That being a paladin and an inquisitor doesnt allow him to ignore his paladin-hood. That it isnt a mental or personality change, he has just picked up another job. That irregardless whoever he sells into slavery it is wrong, no option for a "greater good" available.
5. That the game isnt about Players vs GM, that all the players plans are conducted in secret away from the "prying eyes" of the GM who may scheme to defeat the players.
largely I just want them to understand that..
1. their overall plan was impractical (large scale excavation in a day that goes unnoticed by an army?2. Magical gunpower? That can somehow be made because they read the monster notes and description, which is funny to say mostly fluff.
3. When I introduce creatures and monsters, they shouldnt try to thumb through their books (beastiary's) to see how they can use or defeat them.
4. That being a paladin and an inquisitor doesnt allow him to ignore his paladin-hood. That it isnt a mental or personality change, he has just picked up another job. That irregardless whoever he sells into slavery it is wrong, no option for a "greater good" available.
5. That the game isnt about Players vs GM, that all the players plans are conducted in secret away from the "prying eyes" of the GM who may scheme to defeat the players.
None of this can be communicated from a GM to a player. All of this needs to be communicated as a friend (or acquaintance) instead. The main gist of what you want is for the two disruptive players to be mature and cooperative. That may or may not happen, and it may be that those two players are also having problems with someone else or the adventure. This is almost always the case in my experience, most people mature enough to learn the rules are mature enough to hang out in a peer group for four hours without picking a fight. So there may be some unstable group dynamics. Seven people is a pretty volatile number.
The bestiary thing is one reason why I prefer to use NPCs over 'monsters'. You see a human/elf/dwarf with normal gear ... could be darn near anything.
lol while that would be funny, I am trying to not be a jerk.
largely I just want them to understand that..
But you're not being a jerk. The tanukis are being jerks, but they're listed in their fluff that they're jerks. Caveat emptor.
Now, if they were stiffed by an archon, then yes, you're the jerk. But the players aren't just reading the tanuki description and coming to conclusions, they're making a selective reading of the description and coming to conclusions. In other words, they're trying to dictate the rules of your world to you. DON'T LET THEM.
If you don't want to deprive them of the gold, then let them return to where the tanukis were found. They're long gone, but there's this sack labeled, "Magic Tanuki Gun-Powder! Do not open! It will EXPLODE!" It contains the gold and a note thanking the PCs for such an enjoyable time.
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The bestiary thing is one reason why I prefer to use NPCs over 'monsters'. You see a human/elf/dwarf with normal gear ... could be darn near anything.
yes people tend to think of other races as monsters, if it isnt a PC race... and it is instead a monster race perhaps, then it must always follow the template in the Beastiary/ Monstrous Manual... type of thinking right?
The very notion that something differs from what is published in the Beastiary is surely enough reason for my 2 players to cry foul on them not being able to creating magical gun powder with explosive yield of C4 or Symtex?
The other 4 players tend to work together while the 2 tend to work with themselves largely it seems when last we played.... so I dont know... maybe they are forming groups and it will cause a schism?
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For issue No. 3, I've always treated the stats in the Monster Manuals/Compendiums/Bestiaries are merely suggestions. Change the stats around a bit, and then instead of telling the players what the monster is, just describe what it looks like and what it's doing. If they make the appropriate Knowledge rolls, or had the foresight to do research ahead of time, you can give them some more information. Otherwise they have to find out what it can do the hard way.
I've found that I can sometimes save myself a bit of work by just changing the name and some of the description, leaving the rest intact. For example, I once ran an adventure where the PCs had to rescue a bunch of villagers from a goblin lair. But instead of calling them goblins, the eyewitnesses talked about 3'tall "beast men" and when the PCs saw them I came up with a description that was a little different from the standard goblin. As a result, they treated the "beast men" as an unknown threat and were a lot more cautious than they would have been against simple goblins.
Yes I have taken the liberty of using the guidlines and rules here to edit or even create monsters to include illustrations of them since I like to draw. That way they dont have the ability to google on their iphone or look up the monsters in the book.
But for simplicity sake I used Tanuki... and I think they are awesome... but still it boggles my mind on that subject, why would you want to go book diving to figure out what something is... its akin to getting a magical sword, and the players go through all the books trying to find something that fits its description so they can know what it does right?
Yeah, I'd just talk to the four good players, have the five of you agree to boot the other two, and just be done with it.
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lol while that would be funny, I am trying to not be a jerk.
largely I just want them to understand that..
But you're not being a jerk. The tanukis are being jerks, but they're listed in their fluff that they're jerks. Caveat emptor.
Now, if they were stiffed by an archon, then yes, you're the jerk. But the players aren't just reading the tanuki description and coming to conclusions, they're making a selective reading of the description and coming to conclusions. In other words, they're trying to dictate the rules of your world to you. DON'T LET THEM.
If you don't want to deprive them of the gold, then let them return to where the tanukis were found. They're long gone, but there's this sack labeled, "Magic Tanuki Gun-Powder! Do not open! It will EXPLODE!" It contains the gold and a note thanking the PCs for such an enjoyable time.
While I absolutely love that idea, the fact that the Tanuki would have done that effectively stiffing the players... which would probably lead to the mentioned two players killing alot of Tanuki or simply pretending to not help or coming up with reasons for there characters to not be privvy to the plight of the Tanuki such as "oh my character wasnt paying attention"... hmm the more I analyze this the less I like something that is starting to rear its head...
I think this all comes down to the original advice: Boot the two players out and start fresh. This is unacceptable behavior.
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While I absolutely love that idea, the fact that the Tanuki would have done that effectively stiffing the players... which would probably lead to the mentioned two players killing alot of Tanuki or simply pretending to not help or coming up with reasons for there characters to not be privvy to the plight of the Tanuki such as "oh my character wasnt paying attention"... hmm the more I analyze this the less I like something that is starting to rear its head...
That's why you have to boot the players.
Believe me, I've been there, before. I haven't wanted to do the dirty work of booting players. Felt elitist, I felt dirty for having done it, all that.
But the truth is, only good has come from my decisions to boot players. The players find new games more appropriate to their styles, so they're happier. You and your players have a better game, so you're all happier. In the end, everyone wins. Really.
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First off: A paladin would oppose the idea of slavery, however, if it is the law of the land, he's not going to just start hacking people apart who own slaves. They work within the system to implement change, and should the opportunity arise to free slaves (such as now being the new 'legal' owner since their previous owner attacked you and died). That said, they would never intentionally send someone into slavery.
Secondly, as regards blowing up a fortress. I play a paladin in PFS, and my characters first thought would have been....."How do we know there are no innocents inside that place who would be collateral damage?" What about prisoners in cells, or poor enslaved peasants who are used to clean and serve but want nothing more than freedom. Or what about the BBEG's henchmen who just want a stable income and would jump at a chance for redemption. Paladins are not stupid, nor are they engines of righteous destruction that crushes everything in a quest to kill the bad guy. They are not about to sacrifice innocent lives without those at risk being given the choice unless there was absolutely no other way, and in this case, there are clearly countless better choices of action.
That's my two farthings.
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First off: A paladin would oppose the idea of slavery, however, if it is the law of the land, he's not going to just start hacking people apart who own slaves. They work within the system to implement change, and should the opportunity arise to free slaves (such as now being the new 'legal' owner since their previous owner attacked you and died). That said, they would never intentionally send someone into slavery.
Secondly, as regards blowing up a fortress. I play a paladin in PFS, and my characters first thought would have been....."How do we know there are no innocents inside that place who would be collateral damage?" What about prisoners in cells, or poor enslaved peasants who are used to clean and serve but want nothing more than freedom. Or what about the BBEG's henchmen who just want a stable income and would jump at a chance for redemption. Paladins are not stupid, nor are they engines of righteous destruction that crushes everything in a quest to kill the bad guy. They are not about to sacrifice innocent lives without those at risk being given the choice unless there was absolutely no other way, and in this case, there are clearly countless better choices of action.
That's my two farthings.
very excellent points and definitely noted.
If you want to try to work things out, step one is changing the paladin player's class. If he wants to be the dark inquisitor, thats totally fine, its just not a paladin. If he wants something more martial then the inquisitor, tell him to use the war-priest from the Advanced Class Guide playtest document. Its very similar to a paladin, but not themed after it. Not to mention Iomadae is the wrong deity here.
It might be worth trying to sort it out with the 'problem' players. But I agree with the rest in suggesting that since you have 4 good players, booting 2 people cosntantly arguing with you at the table in such a fashion is probably your best avenue.
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They're trying to rob you with an unloaded gun, SS. Be steadfast. If they quit in anger, all you've lost is two problems. If they knuckle under and admit that maybe the GM has final say over inquisitor codes and the ability of tanuki to sneeze and make gunpowder, you've successfully begun the long process of turning a feral gamer into a domesticated one. (It's not my call on whether that process is worthwhile in these two cases.)
Indeed, I just am focusing on when they are together in the same game, they tend to build upon one another. When I have played with them seperately its not really a problem. Its like they embolden one another I guess?
But I intend to have all 6 players come together and discuss the problems at hand.
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If you want to try to work things out, step one is changing the paladin player's class. If he wants to be the dark inquisitor, thats totally fine, its just not a paladin. If he wants something more martial then the inquisitor, tell him to use the war-priest from the Advanced Class Guide playtest document. Its very similar to a paladin, but not themed after it. Not to mention Iomadae is the wrong deity here.
It might be worth trying to sort it out with the 'problem' players. But I agree with the rest in suggesting that since you have 4 good players, booting 2 people cosntantly arguing with you at the table in such a fashion is probably your best avenue.
Well the issue with that is that he wants the Paladin class abilities, the tanking, the healing and the fighting with all the other bonuses. But its almost like he wants a fighters freedom to pursue his views on what his god wants.... which I have tried to explain that you either are a paladin or you are not. You have to follow it all exactly how the tenants of your faith want you to, or you are not a paladin. Essentially he wants a sort of paladin who has more freedom in his choices and who to help which is problematic. I just cant think of anything that really accomodates his desires for a class. He truly loves being the healing tank type character, but when I told him the responsibilites of a paladin, his rebuttle "but them I am going to have to fight every battle against these evil people and demons"
Well the issue with that is that he wants the Paladin class abilities, the tanking, the healing and the fighting with all the other bonuses. But its almost like he wants a fighters freedom to pursue his views on what his god wants.... which I have tried to explain that you either are a paladin or you are not. You have to follow it all exactly how the tenants of your faith want you to, or you are not a paladin. Essentially he wants a sort of paladin who has more freedom in his choices and who to help which is problematic. I just cant think of anything that really accomodates his desires for a class. He truly loves being the healing tank type character, but when I told him the responsibilites of a paladin, his rebuttle "but them I am going to have to fight every battle against these evil people and demons"If you want to try to work things out, step one is changing the paladin player's class. If he wants to be the dark inquisitor, thats totally fine, its just not a paladin. If he wants something more martial then the inquisitor, tell him to use the war-priest from the Advanced Class Guide playtest document. Its very similar to a paladin, but not themed after it. Not to mention Iomadae is the wrong deity here.
It might be worth trying to sort it out with the 'problem' players. But I agree with the rest in suggesting that since you have 4 good players, booting 2 people cosntantly arguing with you at the table in such a fashion is probably your best avenue.
I understand that. Which is why I am suggesting the warpriest.
Its functionally very similar to the paladin, full bab with a chosen weapon, self buffs, good defense, the ability to self heal, and it can be for any diety and any alignment. It doesnt get everything the paladin does, but it gets other things the paladin doesnt (6 levels of spells and the ability to swift action cast self only divine spells with fervor).
So make him a warpriest of a neutral deity or even an evil deity, and let him play the character he wants, without the paladins thematic baggage.
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Well the issue with that is that he wants the Paladin class abilities, the tanking, the healing and the fighting with all the other bonuses. But its almost like he wants a fighters freedom to pursue his views on what his god wants.... which I have tried to explain that you either are a paladin or you are not. You have to follow it all exactly how the tenants of your faith want you to, or you are not a paladin. Essentially he wants a sort of paladin who has more freedom in his choices and who to help which is problematic. I just cant think of anything that really accomodates his desires for a class. He truly loves being the healing tank type character, but when I told him the responsibilites of a paladin, his rebuttle "but them I am going to have to fight every battle against these evil people and demons"If you want to try to work things out, step one is changing the paladin player's class. If he wants to be the dark inquisitor, thats totally fine, its just not a paladin. If he wants something more martial then the inquisitor, tell him to use the war-priest from the Advanced Class Guide playtest document. Its very similar to a paladin, but not themed after it. Not to mention Iomadae is the wrong deity here.
It might be worth trying to sort it out with the 'problem' players. But I agree with the rest in suggesting that since you have 4 good players, booting 2 people cosntantly arguing with you at the table in such a fashion is probably your best avenue.
I understand that. Which is why I am suggesting the warpriest.
Its functionally very similar to the paladin, full bab with a chosen weapon, self buffs, good defense, the ability to self heal, and it can be for any diety and any alignment. It doesnt get everything the paladin does, but it gets other things the paladin doesnt (6 levels of spells and the ability to swift action cast self only divine spells with fervor).
So make him a warpriest of a neutral deity or even an...
I will definitely try to present the option thanks.
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Just show him this:
Ex-Inquisitors
An inquisitor who slips into corruption or changes to a prohibited alignment loses all spells and the judgment ability. She cannot thereafter gain levels as an inquisitor until she atones (see the atonement spell description). An inquisitor who becomes an ex-inquisitor can, with the GM’s permission, take the heretic archetype, replacing her class abilities with the appropriate archetype abilities. If the character atones or joins a different faith, she loses her heretic abilities and regains her previous inquisitor class abilities.