|
I was trying to explain to a PC was, why a Lawful Good Paladin (of Iomadae) couldnt sell a ally and friend of the party NPC or PC into slavery for an advantage.
Their counter argument was that they had one level of inquisitor, but when I brought up that they had 8 levels of paladin, their reply was that they were an inquisitor.. and that I was trying to give him multiple personalities....
when they were going to infiltrate an enemy compound/ city to do sabatoge and what not.
They tried to come up with a work around...
instead of having to worry about a lengthy mission of infilatration, they had remembered that they had met some Tanuki merchants, and they read their description in the monsterous manual that they often make magical items.... so they wanted to make magical gun powder so they could just dig under ground and blow the compound up from underneath with the super magical gunpowder they wanted the tanuki to build.
When I told them the Tanuki couldnt make magical gun powder they cited reading the fluff description and that I was shutting down their work around for the campaign....
Needless to say I am getting tired of this....
am I doing something wrong? What should I do....
I have GM'ed for 20 years... and I have never had people just omit subconsciously parts of a rule or really go through a monsterous manual to find out info on some creatures... they own the books... so I cant say dont read them. But I try to explain what they know and what the Players know, but they say that the Tanuki would still have or be able to make magic gunpowder even though they have no levels of gunslinger or gunsmithing....
To the first (Paladin), simply tell him that taking one level of something doesn't override the rest. I would give him the offer of changing all his Paladin levels to Inquisitor levels.
Tell him point blank, if he does it, he loses his Paladin abilities. If he goes through with it, do it; he has nobody to blame but himself.
To the second, demand a knowledge check (not sure which category off the top of my head), to even know that about the Tanuki.
Remind them that that is, in fact, flavor text and non-binding, plus that 'often' does not mean 'always', that they may not have the capability of making magical gunpowder, and they may not be willing to do it even if they can.
If it continues, say you're done; their antics (to phrase it politely) are ruining the campaign, and tell them precisely that last bit; that they are intentionally omitting rules, and reading GM-books, which officially qualifies as CHEATING.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ask them "Who are you complaining to?". When they say "you", you tell them "Well, I'm not there." and "Furthermore, whatever bard's tales you may have heard, or books you may have read in-game about the Tanuki, are inaccurate. The Tanuki to whom you're speaking don't know anything about this 'gun-powder'."
They will be puzzled at first, but then say "Pirates are attacking! Roll initiative!" and they will be distracted by combat. Players always become distracted by combat.
In other words, just put your foot down. Be in charge of your world. Be firm and fair, and let them know to knock off the metagaming, and everyone will have a good time.
And that Inquisitor/Paladin? Let him wake up one morning without his paladin powers "The grace of Iomedae has slipped from you. You feel empty without her presence." may wake him up to his responsibilities. Good luck.
|
|
@ Blackbloodtroll & Zhayne
I tried explaining that such an action is evil and would cause them to lose their paladin hood, and they replied "but I am an inquisitor...."
constantly repeating that by making them obey paladin code and not being able to be a dark inquisitor like, I was limiting his choices and blocking his work arounds forcing his character to have multiple personalities. I tried to explain what a paladin can and cant do but they always go back to "I am an inquisitor" and that saying they were both classes and had to obey both class set rules was giving them multiple personalities....
Every time I have tried to explain that they wouldnt know about the Tanuki and their abilities they (2 of the 6 players) would say I am cutting them off and destroying their work arounds. I explained that the fluff in the content doesnt convery a direct rule as listed for the creatures rules. Once again they accused me of limiting their options and shutting them down... apparently they are thinking it is GM vs Players.... because when they said they had a master plan for beating the enemy in one fell swoop. I asked what they would do, they told me that they didnt want me to know as I may have the chance to develop a way of countering their plan. I informed them, ok you can, but remember if it involves an NPC or some courses of action I would need to know or else your plan would fail. Their plan of excavating about a miles worth of dirt and replacing it with gunpowder just had me flabbergasted, Where would anything get that much gun powder, how would they get out that much dirt from under an enemy compound or city.....
Every time I presented what I believe a valid argument they once again acused me shutting them down and working against them.
I am kinda at my whits end...
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Then end it. Tell them precisely what you told us, and end the campaign and find other people to play with.
|
|
Ask them "Who are you complaining to?". When they say "you", you tell them "Well, I'm not there." and "Furthermore, whatever bard's tales you may have heard, or books you may have read in-game about the Tanuki, are inaccurate. The Tanuki to whom you're speaking don't know anything about this 'gun-powder'."
They will be puzzled at first, but then say "Pirates are attacking! Roll initiative!" and they will be distracted by combat. Players always become distracted by combat.
In other words, just put your foot down. Be in charge of your world. Be firm and fair, and let them know to knock off the metagaming, and everyone will have a good time.
And that Inquisitor/Paladin? Let him wake up one morning without his paladin powers "The grace of Iomedae has slipped from you. You feel empty without her presence." may wake him up to his responsibilities. Good luck.
yup, just when I tell them these things they accuse me of trying to cheat against the player by using my gm abilities... once again dumb founded.
the other 4 to 5 players enjoy playing... its just these two who are often using text messages to communicate via session without the rest of the players or myself knowing... should I implement no cellphones for gaming.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Boot the two troublemakers, and carry on with the other 4.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Then end it. Tell them precisely what you told us, and end the campaign and find other people to play with.that is what I was thinking, but what about my 4 other players who enjoy the game?
I wasn't aware that you had other players. Still, I'd end the campaign and start fresh with the other, non-a!+!!%# players; this one feels tainted beyond recognition with their douchebaggery.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not at all. You were being completely fair. They were being douchebags and cheaters.
|
|
so it is recommended that I just start a new game with the other players and just not include the 2 trouble makers in it.
I think the paladin player just didnt understand fully, what lawful good was, and that there is no compromise or work around in their code of ethics, that they are very black and white.
Perhaps I took some basic ideas for granted?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think he understood fully, I think he was just trying to badger you into allowing his totally fake 'loophole'.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps if the player had the appropriate knowledge skills, rather than reading from a magic imaginary book, his character would have known if these tanuki had the capacity to do what he wished.
instead he's stereotyping that every single tanuki in the universe can create magic super gunpowder that can sink castles (and I doubt that's what it actually says)
Could you imagine if all NPC's acted like this? Coming up to your heroes asking them to do things they've heard other humans can do. But you can slay a dragon the size of a mountain with ease good sir! I read it in a book! Imagine the enemies they make as they willing just let entire towns of people die to this dragon when they "had the power to stop it with a single swipe of their sword.... as the stories go anyway. Suddenly vengeful sons and daughters are tracking down these blackhearted fools who left their people to certain death because they were too lazy to lift a sword.
anyway I ranted a bit, but they lose the right to claim you are using GM powers to deal with issues that are the Gm's responsibility (ie World Building) If they want to know whats going on they can put points into knowledge skills like everyone else.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I did some calculations about how much their cubic mile of gunpowder will cost something on the order of 2 Quadrillion gp
As a more on topic rant, I've had to remove people from my games before. After multiple occasions of this player just losing his poop at me.
On one occasion he rampaged out of the house, screaming his character was ruined because his character had taken a bonespike shot into her shoulder and they had failed a str check to pull it free. Since it couldn't be immediately healed he tore up the character sheet and stormed out.
On another occasion the player died twice in one session. One to an unlucky crit that one shotted him , the second was just to bad decision making that had him wandering alone and a haunted inn, after separating from the group and despite multiple warnings that it was a bad idea to split up got picked off by an assassin tailing them.
After that he started picking up and hucking books across the room at me. That was the end of that. I told him to get his ass out and not come back till he grew the hell up. interestingly enough he was 28 at the time and I was only 20 back them O.o. He apologized a few months down the road though so all's well that ends well.
Sometimes you just need to show them you are serious.
|
|
I am realizing that they largely wanted a "I win" button essentially. While I wanted them to develop a plan, where they went with it just struck me as odd.
This isnt the first time they came up with an "I win" button and tried to engrain the idea its not the destination that is the best part of pathfinder but more the journey.
I shouldnt limit choices, but there are penalties for the choices they make and that is ultimately what I want them to understand, but I dont want those penalties to really hurt the campaign or the others who didnt know they were creating these courses of action.
|
|
I did some calculations about how much their cubic mile of gunpowder will cost something on the order of 2 Quadrillion gp
good god all mighty.... once again if I gave them that number they would think I was limiting them... I just shut down the idea and let them be upset. Though one is saying now "well we are all going to die now"
You do have to limit choices. Only things that are feasible, even allowing for fantasy physics, should work. If they have an actual good idea, let it work ... six miles of gunpowder is NOT feasible.
Limiting choices is a part of world design, if nothing else. If I say 'no gunpowder' in a game (a common one), then that's a limiting of choice. Races, classes, all that.
On what Iomedae might think of this...
Iomedae’s Paladin Code:
...
• I will not be taken prisoner by my free will. I will not
surrender those under my command.
• I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor
sacrifice freely given.
• I will guard the honor of my fellows, both in thought and
deed, and I will have faith in them.
I doubt that Iomedae would let a follower sell a companion into slavery. While the player may not have this modification to the code, it's still something to look at.
And if he's trying to ignore his paladin levels because of the inquisitor level? Remind him that they're both coming from the same deity. And that he has the Paladin Code regards of whatever other levels he has. While an inquisitor with no other edicts to follow can bend the rules of the mainstream church some, they still answer to their deity.As well... he's playing a paladin of a god with a level of inquisitor, you may want to remind him he doesn't just get cool divine powers for free; there is some higher power that is watching and it's their tenets he needs to follow to have and keep those powers.
In terms of the gunpowder, ask for a knowledge check. If they fail, too bad, their character doesn't know. If they do succeed, go with it or set up a quest of sorts.
They can definitely do it.
Then Iomedae channels Lana from Archer and goes "Nnnnoooooope"
Then their character becomes an NPC.
..Profit?
|
As a more on topic rant, I've had to remove people from my games before. After multiple occasions of this player just losing his poop at me.
On one occasion he rampaged out of the house, screaming his character was ruined because his character had taken a bonespike shot into her shoulder and they had failed a str check to pull it free. Since it couldn't be immediately healed he tore up the character sheet and stormed out.
On another occasion the player died twice in one session. One to an unlucky crit that one shotted him , the second was just to bad decision making that had him wandering alone and a haunted inn, after separating from the group and despite multiple warnings that it was a bad idea to split up got picked off by an assassin tailing them.
After that he started picking up and hucking books across the room at me. That was the end of that. I told him to get his ass out and not come back till he grew the hell up. interestingly enough he was 28 at the time and I was only 20 back them O.o. He apologized a few months down the road though so all's well that ends well.
Sometimes you just need to show them you are serious.
Holy crap!
Physical violence, and destruction of property, are never appropriate.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I say get rid of the two troublemakers, and continue on with the other 4. I agree with Zhayne, that those 2 were just being massive douches and destroying the fun of the other people involved (you included).
It sounds like he wants to play an 'evil' paladin by using the inquisitor level as a cover. If he doesn't follow the 'code' he can still lose all paladin powers regardless of the inquisitor level. It can be difficult for GMs to have paladin PCs, and tough to rule fairly sometimes.
As to the 'selling an ally to slavery' part, if they were doing that as part of infiltration of the enemy camp, I think a paladin could be ok with that as long as the goal of taking down the slavers is a focus.
Monster Manual- this one I wouldn't let fly. If my players ever looked up specifics like that on me, they would quickly see me adding random templates to every creature just so they wouldn't know what was coming at them. I have no problem with knowledge checks providing some info, but there is no way they should be sitting there reading the bestiary entries. If they have issue with it due to 'owning' the books, then step down and let one of them be the GM. As GM, remember you 'control' the world. Just because it is printed in a book doesn't mean you have to use it as is.
If they keep being difficult, you could always let their plan succeed, tell them congrats you won, beat the slavers. But no treasure since you just blew it all up, and...um... the adventure is over. Congrats! You Win! How about a game of checkers?
Disagreement with rules is pretty common between players and GMs. I play with friends that I've known for 15+ years and it still happens. Usually we try to get past it in game and decide what to do after the game.
I have players that cause problems sometimes. I've told them that the next time they do it I'm going to quit DMing for the group and they can out up with the BS. They've been much better about it recently. :)
I agree with what everyone else has said so far.
Having shared my real thoughts on the matter, here's a few more (some of which are quite passive-aggressive, so I don't really advise using them).
Equitable and fair indentured servitude is not evil (nor is it good). Slavery is evil. Goodbye paladin powers. Enforcing the paladin code of conduct is not "trying to split the character's personality". The onus is on the player to maintain both the paladin and inquisitor sides to his beliefs.
As for the gunpowder idea... It would cost a lot of money. If it's magical, it will take 1 day per 1,000 gp to craft (odds are these merchants won't have enough to lay a 5,000 foot train of gunpowder to hand, and one shot would maybe cover an inch, meaning they need 60,000 shots of powder, which comes to a mere 600,000 gp for black powder).
If they somehow (how? I have no idea) manage a workaround for this, make it rain. BIG storm.
Secondly, gunpowder explosions really only work in confined spaces. At best they've laid out a really long, fast-burning fuse. It will not explode enough to hurt anything except a creature standing right on top of it.
And all of this assumes the enemy don't notice them. Roll perception checks for the bad guys to see the preparations. Lots of them. After all, digging a mile-long trench will take a while. If they notice, have the bad guys take countermeasures, like... Filling in the trench while the PCs are sleeping. I bet they can outpace the PCs.
But, seriously, ditch those guys. They're not worth the effort.
|
|
It sounds like he wants to play an 'evil' paladin by using the inquisitor level as a cover. If he doesn't follow the 'code' he can still lose all paladin powers regardless of the inquisitor level. It can be difficult for GMs to have paladin PCs, and tough to rule fairly sometimes.
As to the 'selling an ally to slavery' part, if they were doing that as part of infiltration of the enemy camp, I think a paladin could be ok with that as long as the goal of taking down the slavers is a focus.
Monster Manual- this one I wouldn't let fly. If my players ever looked up specifics like that on me, they would quickly see me adding random templates to every creature just so they wouldn't know what was coming at them. I have no problem with knowledge checks providing some info, but there is no way they should be sitting there reading the bestiary entries. If they have issue with it due to 'owning' the books, then step down and let one of them be the GM. As GM, remember you 'control' the world. Just because it is printed in a book doesn't mean you have to use it as is.
If they keep being difficult, you could always let their plan succeed, tell them congrats you won, beat the slavers. But no treasure since you just blew it all up, and...um... the adventure is over. Congrats! You Win! How about a game of checkers?
well with the paladin, they didnt want to be weighed down with the responsibilities unless it would be really cool at the time to do so. and the Inquisitor was seen as a way of altering said paladin in kind of a way of the Spanish Inquisition. I think they now viewed their character as a Paladin of the "Spanish Inquisition" of Iomadae...
Wtih selling an ally to slavery, they were planning to do so to effectively get equipment to make the next mission easier not to try to infiltrate. They would have sold the ally to a different group to gain benefits to fight another group.
With the infilatration that they wanted to turn into a single large explosion... well if I let them have their way, I would have let them blow up the enemy and gotten no real loot, with little to no EXP because they really didnt experience anything and not yielded to the concept that they would have gotten EXP Points by the sheer number of enemy killed in the explosion... because following that logic the dropping of an atomic bomb would in a single blow create a bomber crew of Epic levels...
|
|
Having shared my real thoughts on the matter, here's a few more (some of which are quite passive-aggressive, so I don't really advise using them).
Equitable and fair indentured servitude is not evil (nor is it good). Slavery is evil. Goodbye paladin powers. Enforcing the paladin code of conduct is not "trying to split the character's personality". The onus is on the player to maintain both the paladin and inquisitor sides to his beliefs.
As for the gunpowder idea... It would cost a lot of money. If it's magical, it will take 1 day per 1,000 gp to craft (odds are these merchants won't have enough to lay a 5,000 foot train of gunpowder to hand, and one shot would maybe cover an inch, meaning they need 60,000 shots of powder, which comes to a mere 600,000 gp for black powder).
If they somehow (how? I have no idea) manage a workaround for this, make it rain. BIG storm.
Secondly, gunpowder explosions really only work in confined spaces. At best they've laid out a really long, fast-burning fuse. It will not explode enough to hurt anything except a creature standing right on top of it.
And all of this assumes the enemy don't notice them. Roll perception checks for the bad guys to see the preparations. Lots of them. After all, digging a mile-long trench will take a while. If they notice, have the bad guys take countermeasures, like... Filling in the trench while the PCs are sleeping. I bet they can outpace the PCs.
But, seriously, ditch those guys. They're not worth the effort.
I am getting that type of vibe that no matter what I would do it would not be acceptable to them unless I let them have their way. I have often been willing to use house rules to allow them to do things they would not normally be able to do just to accomodate them and let the game be fun which has been amazingly successful. Up until recently with the Paladin codes, Selling to slavery and Magical Gun Powder....
Also the problem only happened when they played together this one time... seperate they are more managable and the other players often reel them in. But when they are together it seems they work together...
so the group and indeed the game can handle one of them but not both.
|
|
In my day job I'm an archaeologist, and I think the idea of six people with shovels trying to excavate a cubic mile of dirt is funny enough that I'd let them try. They're trying to move about 5 1/2 billion cubic yards and each of them can manage, perhaps, 4 cubic yards a day in very good soil if they don't take breaks. (If they disagree, let them go outside and show you how long it takes them to dig a 3'x 3' x 3' hole.) Obviously, that doesn't include the labor of carting the dirt away.
Encounters would occur as normal while they're working, of course, and at the end of each day I would let them know how big of a hole they now have.
yup, once again when I asked them this, they said they would use magic... I said with what spells they intended to use, they replied they would find the spells memorize them and the items necessary to help... it just strikes me as I guess Meta gaming perhaps?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sounds more like they were channeling Wile E. Coyote.
|
|
In my day job I'm an archaeologist, and I think the idea of six people with shovels trying to excavate a cubic mile of dirt is funny enough that I'd let them try. They're trying to move about 5 1/2 billion cubic yards and each of them can manage, perhaps, 4 cubic yards a day in very good soil if they don't take breaks. (If they disagree, let them go outside and show you how long it takes them to dig a 3'x 3' x 3' hole.) Obviously, that doesn't include the labor of carting the dirt away.
Encounters would occur as normal while they're working, of course, and at the end of each day I would let them know how big of a hole they now have.
yup, once again when I asked them this, they said they would use magic... I said with what spells they intended to use, they replied they would find the spells memorize them and the items necessary to help... it just strikes me as I guess Meta gaming perhaps?
So let them try to play it out. Move Earth requires a little over 4 hours for the maximum effect of only 750' x 750' x 10'. So two of those per day, and assuming that all six PCs have somehow become 11th level druids, sorcerers, or wizards, and you're still talking about almost 6 years of work with no weekends or holidays.
Yup... I could just see them trying to get the Tanuki to make them some sort of easy fix for that too sadly... and us falling back to the issue of their percieved "GM vs Player" with the GM being the tyrant.
ya know... If their answer is "we'll work it out and if you stop us you are being a jerk" then they might as well have gone BIG.
As in, Opening a rift between planes so that they open a planar gateway that constantly pours out lava to engulf the entire County.
Go big or go home!
|
|
I cant help but wonder if it is the perception of having to win... caused mostly by video game mentality?
Are they perhaps viewing themselves as the main characters perhaps? with a desire to be the ones to single handedly solve a problem akin to Perseus or other mythical figures? That is what comes to mind for me, after all why not discuss it with the other players in the group? Unless they believed that they would not be on board for it? Or that they would try to come up with another plan?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think so. I think it's just some people don't realize that D&D is a cooperative game, not just between players, but between the players and GM. The word 'game' tends to imply that one person 'wins' or someone 'loses', which isn't really the case here.
The PCs *are* the main characters, but that doesn't mean every hair-brained idea they have will work, and it doesn't mean they have carte blanche to ignore rules.
|
|
ya know... If their answer is "we'll work it out and if you stop us you are being a jerk" then they might as well have gone BIG.
As in, Opening a rift between planes so that they open a planar gateway that constantly pours out lava to engulf the entire County.
Go big or go home!
well the sheer amount of time, dirt removed (in stealthy silence)and replaced with gunpowder installed.... let alone the the time, and resources to create all that gun powder....
to destroy something of that scale they would need something even more potent than simple gun powder.
But they did want to go big, but with more "science" than summoning.
Also I asked how did they know so much about, Splunking, Excavation, and Gun Powder as one is a druid and the other a Paladin (both about 8th level) Even if they didnt use as much gunpowder, where or how would they know to place the explosives to cause a cave in of such an extent that the entire place would collapse.
yeah, so when players are purposefully hiding stuff from the GM they're doing it wrong. basically, private conversations have to go through the GM. The GM is another player, just sitting from another perspective, and any actions that undermine the GMs role are as bad as undermining a players class.
that said, all you have to do is say "your paladin powers come from being a paladin, if your not a paladin, then congrats you lost all of your paladin powers."
"but i'm an inquisitor"
"yeah, you are, inquisitors don't have paladin powers."
"you're ruining my character"
"no, you just made a character that didn't work"
also yeah, digging the tunnel... under construction rules, with a mile long tunnel, I think would take them months if they did it on their own. handling it like a common room. if they were to buy all the resources to get it done quickly it would be 300gp per 150 ft... 9900gp just for making the long tunnel.
every 150 ft taking 16 days, thats... 16*33= 528 days... 1.5 years... or so...
and note these are using best circumstances using construction rules...