So my friend started a game, mostly in order to introduce some new players into the group, and had the two veterans roll for scores. Of course, I am now playing a Barbarian with a 7 INT score. And of course, I usually play a skill monkey. My question is.... what can I do when I'm this stupid (other than smash)? I'd like to keep this guy around for a while, but I fear boredom.
Spread your skill points around to take advantage of the +3 class skill bonus. Use your favored class bonus for skills. Use a trait to pick up a new class skill. Don't worry about keeping all of your skills maxed out. As a matter of fact, make Diplomacy your central skill and have fun roleplaying a highly social, dimwitted, party face barbarian.
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Think about it this way: 7 INT is only a -2 modifier, which is equivalent to having an INT of 13 or 14 in terms of difference from average. A 7 INT character could gain basic training (1 rank) in an INT class skill such as a knowledge and still be better off at that skill than a layman.
What i'm trying to say is, 7 INT is not *that* dumb. Especially with a high or decent WIS you could easily roleplay him as slow on the uptake but also careful and considered: a guy with simple plans who prefers to stick to his guns and doesn't adapt easily to sudden changes, but is suprisingly good at pointing out simple flaws in more complex plans.
Think about it this way: 7 INT is only a -2 modifier, which is equivalent to having an INT of 13 or 14 in terms of difference from average. A 7 INT character could gain basic training (1 rank) in an INT class skill such as a knowledge and still be better off at that skill than a layman.
What i'm trying to say is, 7 INT is not *that* dumb. Especially with a high or decent WIS you could easily roleplay him as slow on the uptake but also careful and considered: a guy with simple plans who prefers to stick to his guns and doesn't adapt easily to sudden changes, but is suprisingly good at pointing out simple flaws in more complex plans.
What he said.
Ogrish thuggery is more a cultural aspect than a genetic one.
Thanks guys. I definitely suffer from an intelligence bias, too much time spent as a know-it-all rogue. I like a lot of the suggestions (especially having a diplomacy score) and will now endeavor to shrug off the ridicule of my party (though with a STR score of 20, I doubt anyone will really try to anger me). Thanks!
Find a smart( or charismatic you wont know the difference) and make him tell you what to do. And then do something like what he tells you.
But as others have Said Int 7 is not debilitating it is just not that smart.
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I don't know, the thing about a 7 not being "that" dumb isn't quite as easy as "only" -2. I mean, an INT 10 character can be expected to pass all basic DC 10 untrained knowledge skill checks (Take 10). At a 7 Int, you have less then a 50/50 shot at knowing a Cow is Harmless, but a Bull is dangerous. That's not even counting the difference in span of knowledge (the number of different skills you can potentially have ranks in). Maybe not crippling dumb, but yeah, you're not too bright.
Typing on a phone, with gloves, please excuse any spelling errors.
A cow is not harmless. But if your GM makes you Roll for stuff like that? Well then enjoy all the silly stuff having -2 on the Roll Will force him to make you the main character in.
Pride in your intelligence and you opted to play.... Rogue?
I jest of course ^_^ all love to our rogue's , every system needs a whipping boy.
In my opinion intelligence merely represents the ability to learn. Knowledge skills represent what you actually know. The knowledge skills all represent specialized knowledge, politics, the gentry, the cosmos, lands beyond your region of origin, etc. I don't think a knowledge check is appropriate for information that should be culturally embedded such as the fact that cows are mostly harmless. A good example of a character with a 7 intelligence is the character Aaron aka "85" from the movie Alien 3. Although ridiculed by other characters in the film and clearly slower to grasp concepts being bandied about by them he has no trouble being a fully ambulatory functional person.
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I agree that personality wise low int can be offset by high wis or cha.
High Cha: Better an okay plan now than a good plan too late. The simpler the plan, the less to go wrong.
In many ways Jack O'Neill fits this. Always asking Carter, Daniel or Teal'c what something is... but good at (simple) combat plans. Seems like you could do that, right down to buying excellent ranks in some weird knowledge skill (like O'Neill's astronomy - the only area where he is actually a knowledge expert).
There are human feats that give more skill points or bonuses to untrained skills.
How did I know someone was going to jump on the Cow being harmless thing? I'm not sure if you meant for that to come off as dismissive as it does Cap, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Am I expecting a GM or Player to roll for every little thing? No. But if you want an idea of what a Character can be expected to know off the top of their head, compare what they would get on a Take 10 Knowledge check to the chart.
7 Int, No ranks in Knowledge Religion: May or May not recognize the holy symbol of a common Diety. That could be a big deal (and lead to some fun role playing)
10 Int, No ranks in Knowledge Religion: Knows the Holy symbols of all the common gods, but not the more obscure ones. The assumed level of knowledge for most pc's
1 rank in Knowledge Religion, a 12 Int and it's a ClassSkill? You Know the common gods as well as the mythology and tenants around them, the uncommon gods symbols, and you have a chance of recognizing even an obscure gods symbols. About what you expect from a 1st level cleric.
Now, like the people above pointed out, you can work around this. Traits, feats, class abilities and skill points can make up for the characters shortfalls in specific areas. I actually play a Character with an 8 Intelligence, but max ranks in Knowledge Engineering. I look at it this way, it doesn't come easy to him, but he works hard at it, learning by trial and error. A smarter character would have learned Engineering and History in the same amount of time and effort.
How did I know someone was going to jump on the Cow being harmless thing? I'm not sure if you meant for that to come off as dismissive as it does Cap, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Am I expecting a GM or Player to roll for every little thing? No. But if you want an idea of what a Character can be expected to know off the top of their head, compare what they would get on a Take 10 Knowledge check to the chart.
7 Int, No ranks in Knowledge Religion: May or May not recognize the holy symbol of a common Diety. That could be a big deal (and lead to some fun role playing)
10 Int, No ranks in Knowledge Religion: Knows the Holy symbols of all the common gods, but not the more obscure ones. The assumed level of knowledge for most pc's
1 rank in Knowledge Religion, a 12 Int and it's a ClassSkill? You Know the common gods as well as the mythology and tenants around them, the uncommon gods symbols, and you have a chance of recognizing even an obscure gods symbols. About what you expect from a 1st level cleric.
Now, like the people above pointed out, you can work around this. Traits, feats, class abilities and skill points can make up for the characters shortfalls in specific areas. I actually play a Character with an 8 Intelligence, but max ranks in Knowledge Engineering. I look at it this way, it doesn't come easy to him, but he works hard at it, learning by trial and error. A smarter character would have learned Engineering and History in the same amount of time and effort.
No offense ment.
Even if we say that the place where all things turn on normal common knowledge is if you have -1 or not on int. Then mr. int 10 is only 20% more likely to se the difference between the Bull and the cow when the Bull (or the angry cow) is coming at him. Because taking ten is for when you have no stress.
I would play him as someone who doesn't know whether or not cows are harmless. He's heard it both ways, but he doesn't really have any idea what people are talking about. I mean, they seem mostly docile, from a cursory inspection, but maybe there's something about them you're just not getting.
That shouldn't be the entirety of the character, but I'd get that in there somewhere. I like low INT characters who are clearly thinking, but get easily get confused by things other people take for granted.
Cool, I must have my snark meter out of whack, no harm no foul Cap.
I actually like that Cabbage, all this talk of cows reminds me of the time I was chased around the yard by a calf while playing fetch with my dog when I was a kid.
I thought it was mad at me, so I ran away (followed by my uncles calf, and my sheep dog, both of whom thought this was great fun).
Turns out, the calf wanted to play fetch. I'm not joking.
Dexion, your logic would apply as soon as you go even one point below INT 10, and considering ~50% of the population is considered to have less than 10 INT, this creates a pretty ridiculous situation where one in twenty commoners fail basic knowledge checks 10% of the time.
It also creates a weird situation where as soon as an average individual is distracted (and can't take 10), he fails to know even really basic information 50% of the time. You aren't going to suddenly forget what a christian cross or star of david looks like just because you are suddenly in danger. Even worse, if you were a priest with INT 12 and a skill rank in knowledge religion (5 total) you have a 25% chance not to recognise your own holy symbol in combat. I don't need to explain why this is stupid, hopefully
The only sensible way to apply general knowledge is to assume it is exactly that: general knowledge. Knowledge skills are about either learning or knowing information that is not bleedingly obvious.
As an aside: i've known a dairy farmer who was a few bricks short of a whole house - probably 7 INT is comparable (lovely guy incidentally). He still functioned perfectly fine in society... and knew cows were dangerous. I feel like there's a jest at your expense here, but I mean it only in good humour ;-).
Extremely common creatures are DC 5+CR, not 10+CR.
A cow, for example, would be DC 5.
Someone with 7 Int isn't going to be ignorant of what a cow is.
Also, a Barbarian can be wonderfully versatile. If you were a Fighter you'd be somewhat screwed, but as a Barbarian...
My Orc Barbarian has 8 Int.
He is the party's Linguist, trap dismantler, and all around ass kicker.
Since you probably don't want 5 Int, go Half-Orc instead.
Take the Feat Trap Wrecker, then Superstition, Witch Hunter, and finally Spell Sunder.
With Trap Wrecker you've got mundane traps, and Spell Sunder give syou magic ones.
Bada bing.
Now, if you wanna get technical, yes, your Barbarian still does nothing but smash things.
But considering you can smash people, traps (magical and otherwise), and effectively debuff enemies in multiple ways (either by smashing their gear, or smashing their buffs...multiple times a round since Sunder can be used in place of a melee attack), I'd say the "smash things" umbrella covers a sufficient number of bases.
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My brother is mildly mentally retarded or delayed how ever people want to say it. So he'd be in this range
-Learned to read, but though 14, reads at a second grade level. Think Little Critter books etc.
-Difficulty following two step directions
-Small vocabulary.
-Easily amused by repetitive acts, like watching a monkey climb a ladder and jump off
-Normal, or even above normal physical ability, played gold and baseball to an average, or above average level.
-No difficulty in normal activities, dressing, eating, etc
-Poor self awareness, "I'm upset but I don't know why"
-Will believe anything he sees on TV.
-(Personally I hate this term delayed, since it implies he will be there someday, like a delayed train...no...he won't)
Interestingly, some people who are not very smart aren't smart enough to realize they are not very smart. Thus your 7 int character might think he is very smart indeed.
or
Perhaps your barbarian is not generally very smart but is obsessed with one thing in particular. You can simulate this by putting all of your skill ranks in one or two skills. Thus generally not very bright but surprisingly knowledgeable about history or lycanthropes or extremely diplomatic, etc.
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AM NOT "AM BARBARIAN," BUT AM OTHER BARBARIAN, AND BARBARIAN AM HEAR NOT-BARBARIANS TALK LIKE BARBARIAN AM NOT SMART.
AM GENIUS! BECAUSE AM BARBARIAN! AM SMASH ALL, BARBARIAN AND NOT-BARBARIAN, LIKE PANCAKE. AM SHOW NOT-BARBARIANS HOW BARBARIAN AM SMART. SMASH SOLVE ALL THING. AM BARBARIAN, AM SMASH. AM SMASH MORE THAN NOT-BARBARIANS IN SMASH-TIME, AM MOST SMART!
AM SMART LIKE TALKY-MAN. AM NOT TALK GOOD, BUT AM SMASH, AND SMASH SOLVE ALL THING. AND MAKE TASTY PANCAKE OUT OF NOT-BARBARIANS.
...AM HUNGRY NOW. AM GO SMASH NOT-BARBARIANS INTO PANCAKE AND EAT LIKE AM "SOH-FIST-I-CAY-TED."
Well, they aren't especially mentally deficient if their wisdom is high. If the charisma is good and backed up by skills, they also can be quite socially intelligent.
; )
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The "Village Idiot", statted in the Gamemastery Guide, has a 4 intelligence.
So, you are not that mentally impaired.
Also, 7 is actually above the Ogre's 6. Not much difference, but still, a little.
Ogres are still able to go about things, like crude tactics, like sneaking up on an enemy. This works for them, when surprise rape is their goal.
Some even have the Nightstalker feat, and can easily surprise an enemy/victim.
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become a politician?
Lol Blakmane, I see what you did there. Jerk j/k
OP, I think everyone is in agreement, you're not role playing rain man, but depending on your Wis and CHR you have a lot of room for character development and personality. We just (respectfully) disagree about everything else! Lol
If you are as smart as an ogre (or thereabouts) go a cleric, or sorcerer and laugh as you the idiot let loose extremely powerful magic. Their superior IQ will not save them from your saves.
If a rogue, laugh as it doesn't have much effect and you have plenty of ability points for other things.
If a monk, always do this, push str higher, rely on sense motive as much as possible.
If a fighter, give up on the skill side of the system. Go non-human for laughs, say "int? Don't even neeeed it" at least once a session. Give your character a really memorable personality and have fun.
I was under the impression, that 7-13, was the "average" for commoners.
Well, an average can't be a range, an average is a number. I would interpret the average for any stat to be 10 with the standard deviation being 3. Which is to say "most people are within 3 of the average."
So if those INT commoners you run into walking down the street are not excessively moronic, they're just at the stupid edge of what's normal and expected. So INT 7 is more "that guy's not the sharpest card in this metaphor, is he?" not "holy crap, how does he even dress himself?"
But stats probably aren't normally distributed anyway, since high stats seem to be much more common than low ones. Maybe commoners all rolled for stats though.
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I was under the impression, that 7-13, was the "average" for commoners.Well, an average can't be a range, an average is a number. I would interpret the average for any stat to be 10 with the standard deviation being 3. Which is to say "most people are within 3 of the average."
So if those INT commoners you run into walking down the street are not excessively moronic, they're just at the stupid edge of what's normal and expected. So INT 7 is more "that guy's not the sharpest card in this metaphor, is he?" not "holy crap, how does he even dress himself?"
That's what I meant to say.
I also expect the same for wisdom, and charisma.
So if those INT commoners you run into walking down the street are not excessively moronic, they're just at the stupid edge of what's normal and expected. So INT 7 is more "that guy's not the sharpest card in this metaphor, is he?" not "holy crap, how does he even dress himself?"
So, the average human intelligence *today*.
A lot of peoples conceptions of the stats are out of whack. 10-11 is that of the average common man. It's "stat inflation" to think 18-20 is "peak." A 7 intelligence is not the end of the world, but you should play him with some poor reasoning skills and learning some knowledges like "engineering" would be very difficult and frustrating for him. He might have trouble understanding the concepts in knowledges that require abstract thinking.
Poor reasoning skills doesn't mean he always makes the wrong decision. If he has decent enough wisdom. He may know how to survive in the wilderness, find the best hunting grounds and otherwise do well in terms of basic human survival. Those poor reasoning skills might be a cause of various frustrations, perhaps leaving him to solve his problems by expressing his rage, rather than trying to problem solve. He likely doesn't have much appreciation for books or scholars but he knows a fine coat of mail and a well made sword. And really, isn't that's what important in life?
I think the character is playable. It would be neat if he obtained magic that improved his intellect. How would he react? There's some excellent roleplaying material right there.
A 7 int isn't decisively "poor reasoning" though. Understanding the reasoning and motivations of others is sense motive, which is paired to wis not int. This is how you understand what is going on, your reasoning on what the situations ahead are and what motivates people.
Now your social reasoning, your ability to use others and further your aims is charisma and those related skills. There is no limit to the use of these actions in the rules--it does not say, even if you have a high charisma and a good bluff, if you don't have a good int your can't lie, cheat and totally do rings around people with your trickery. Int isn't the king here, when it comes to interaction skills its charisma and its skills, not int. Acting, reasoning and turning a social situation to your advantage is charisma.
Wis over int doesn't mean he just has "basic survival skills". Working out what is going on with those around you is sense motive, and the emotional intelligence skills and directing/manipulating others is charisma and its skills. Int is the most fuzzy ability score, and if your other two are high or excellent and the skills paired to those kept bolstered, int really slides from importance.
A dm could say, your character is too dumb to make a smart choice on character, or too dumb to trick others with your bluff, too naive to craft an argument with diplomacy, or too foolish to work out what is going on with sense motive, but all this is outside of the int stat, and int doesn't govern what actions you can declare.
Int is fuzzy and vague, and doesn't even cover all that there is to intelligence. Therefore its name isn't even correct.
And as I was saying, reasoning isn't entirely encapsulated under INT.
Social reasoning, personal adaptability, manipulating and the use of social intelligence is charisma based.
Understanding others and reasoning about their motives is wisdom.
Ogres don't have a great charisma either, but you can be as dumb as an ogre but be extremely adept at handling social situations. It is because of the way the rules are put together, intelligence isn't actually all aspects of intelligence.