No, because that is replaced by the reflex save. The hanging on by hand is part of the climbing rules. It's a spell effect. You fail the save, you fall in the pit. You're not necessarily even near an edge of the pit. An additional save doesn't happen because your reflex did not allow you to jump.
It's only 10x10. You are always near the edge of the pit. You literally can't help but be adjacent to at least one side.
I also don't see any reason why the Reflex save would replace the Climb check. Passing the Reflex save means you aren't falling. Failing the Reflex save means you are falling. Attempting the Climb check is specifically a non-action you can attempt when you are falling.
No only can you make the Climb check if you fail the Reflex, you must fail the Reflex save to make the Climb check.
As I wrote earlier it's a DC 10 climb check to catch yourself from sliding down a slope and falling into a bit. This means any target who makes that check doesn't move so the only need to crawl 10 feet to be completely out of the pit's area. If they can make a DC 15 check then the move at half speed (usually 15 feet more or less).
the reason 1 point is usually enough is Climb is on 80% of the creature types out there's class skill list. This gives them 1 +3 +(Str/Dex Bonus) vs that DC 10 making this an almost automatic success to avoid falling into the pit AND making it out.
Everyone puts a point into the climb skill for a reason and this is one of those reasons.
That would be against slipping into the pit when you're standing on the sloped surface around it. If you fail your Reflex and fall into the pit, you would be rolling Climb vs. DC 45. And even in the case of slipping into the pit, I'd say you'd be rolling against the same DC--the Climb check of 10 + slope's DC is to catch yourself from sliding down the slope, not from falling off the end of it, and allowing a Climb check in that circumstance would negate the Reflex save that the spell calls for. I wouldn't allow someone to do that. Catching yourself falling into the pit? Sure, but I'd like to see someone make that DC 45 check at a level where Create Pit is still relevant.
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I've used the Create Pit spell with some regularity in the games where I got to play a wizard, and I'll say that while I like the spell, it has been a mixed blessing. Kolokotroni can attest to that!
Sure, the spell takes one or more creatures out of the fight for some number of rounds, but the spell cannot be Dismissed, and it is fairly difficult to attack anything that has fallen into the hole, so what often occurs is that a creature or two gets taken out of the fight while the party mops up the rest of the monsters in the encounter... And then waits for several rounds doing nothing, because they don't want to risk falling into the pit themselves, and cannot move up to the edge, attack, and move off the slope during their turn.
There have been several encounters where the players were more annoyed with me for casting Create Pit than the GM was, because the spell left everyone standing around bored, waiting for the monster(s) to come back up, or it prevented one of the melees from getting TO the monsters on the far side of the pit, or ruined charge lanes.
Now, this wasn't too much of a hardship for my wizard, since he had the Teleportation subschool and could walk up to the edge, fire a crossbow quarrel or a spell down into the pit at the monster, and then swift action teleport 5 or 10 feet back so he wasn't at risk of falling in himself.
Of course, what often happened when everything else was finished in an encounter except for the stuff down the pit, was the party would array themselves around the pit and ready actions to attack as soon as the creature(s) rise to the surface.
I agree, I hate the pit spells, mind you have a general hatred of save or die spells anyway.
But I have a special hatred for the pit spells as a second level save or die spell makes me just wanna hit my head off the wall sometimes.
I know there are a few ways around it, but it just cuts chunks out of the CR of an encounter and lowers the overall difficulty of the fight significantly that a challenging encounter becomes a cake walk.
bleh, rant.
As opposed to Sleep and Color Spray which are 1st level save or die spells.
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Also, as has been said (several times by Kolo, in particular), single monster encounters are awful.
I've run several over the years, with mixed results, and have been a player in many more, often with AWFUL results.
There are basically 3 ways a single monster encounter can go:
1. The monster gets its ass handed to it thanks to the enormous difference in action economy between one monster and 4 or 5 players (not to mention that the players are all focused on one foe, while that creature has its attention divided).
2. The monster is so outrageously powerful as to be able to stand up to the combined might of several players that you're more often than not playing a game of death roulette where the creature can too easily squash any single player...and as players go down, the monster's advantage and relative power go up, making a TPK likely.
3. Miraculously, the fight feels tough, but not overwhelming, and everyone has fun.
Which of those do you think comes up more often? (Hint: it's not #3).
If APs are giving too many of these sorts of encounters, either do as Kolo suggested and double whatever you're pitting against the players, or take 5 minutes and assemble a small group of slightly weaker foes to support the big guy. You can just pull stuff out of the bestiary, if it makes sense, or the NPC Codex, or do a search on the d20pfsrd website (I do this sometimes--search for dwarf or kobold, for example, and you'll get entries for classed versions of these creatures from modules and adventures that have been posted to the site, giving you a variety to choose from).
Recently, I had the players in my game square off against a fairly tough dragon, but instead of trying to build the thing to stand up to the punishment of the whole team, I made it tough, then added in 2 kobold casters, and a swarm of weaker kobold warriors. That helped to divide the players' attention a bit, and bought the dragon some time. Truthfully, I think I could have added more of the warriors to the fight. As it was, once the kobolds were all taken care of, the dragon took a beating, even when flying out of reach of most of the characters, because everyone could bring their resources to bear on a single target who could do only so much.
If you want an example of a single monster that worked well (I thought) against a full party: back in 3.5 I designed a void mind (template) minotaur (I don't recall whether he was large or huge sized) with a reach weapon, a good attack bonus, Combat Reflexes, a big Dex, and the Knockback feat/ability, and placed him atop a fairly small platform in front of the only path leading off of it (except down). The PCs had to get past him, and he was designed to prevent them from doing just that--anyone approaching him provoked an AoO, and he'd hit them fairly hard, then get a free Bull Rush against them, knocking them back. A few of them got knocked back far enough to get sent over the edge, dropping some distance (depending on where they were knocked off) to the stairs winding around the pillar. One players spent half the fight Feather Falling thanks to his ring. The minotaur had good saves, SR, and I think probably DR. Players had to use ranged attacks, try to tumble through his reach, try to exhaust his AoOs fo the round, or hope their AC would get them a miss.
Those sorts of encounters are rare, and while this guy wasn't overwhelming them with damage, he was hitting them hard, and was himself very difficult to harm. Parts of the encounter were frustrating for the players, and it could have very easily gone sideways and killed a few, and prevented the rest from moving on.
Yeah I'm going to be doing an audit on the wealth of the group soon, I have a feeling one of the players has been syphoning more than there share of funds, just a little bit at a time, always taking the better items , which nobody really argued against, but now at level 15 I think it's really added up to a significant advantage.
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That would be against slipping into the pit when you're standing on the sloped surface around it. If you fail your Reflex and fall into the pit, you would be rolling Climb vs. DC 45. And even in the case of slipping into the pit, I'd say you'd be rolling against the same DC--the Climb check of 10 + slope's DC is to catch yourself from sliding down the slope, not from falling off the end of it, and allowing a Climb check in that circumstance would negate the Reflex save that the spell calls for. I wouldn't allow someone to do that. Catching yourself falling into the pit? Sure, but I'd like to see someone make that DC 45 check at a level where Create Pit is still relevant.
As I wrote earlier it's a DC 10 climb check to catch yourself from sliding down a slope and falling into a bit. This means any target who makes that check doesn't move so the only need to crawl 10 feet to be completely out of the pit's area. If they can make a DC 15 check then the move at half speed (usually 15 feet more or less).
the reason 1 point is usually enough is Climb is on 80% of the creature types out there's class skill list. This gives them 1 +3 +(Str/Dex Bonus) vs that DC 10 making this an almost automatic success to avoid falling into the pit AND making it out.
Everyone puts a point into the climb skill for a reason and this is one of those reasons.
Now you are making assumptions that are in no way written anywhere in this spell or skill and have already been addressed earlier in this thread.
But to state it again, NO the check is not to avoid slipping into the pit. The written rules specifically say FALLING not slipping or sliding or whatever other term you want to use, it's strictly FALLING.You fall the reflex save and you fall, the climb rules state any time you fall you can make a climb check to grab wall and not fall. If there is a slope it is always an easier check.
Since the spell doesn't state a DC for the slope you use the default of 0+10 for this check to grab the edge.
I know your next argument will be it can't be 0 and decide to use the DC of the pit but that violates the climb rules that specifically give a DC for a slope.
@ Meager Rolmug, you are now throwing out crazy suggestions that are completely against the rules. The reason you get to make a climb check is because the core rulebook says you get to make this check. It does NOT say you can make an acrobatics check or a sense motive or any of the other random things you threw out.
The rules say you CAN do this so do it, the rules do NOT say you can do any of the things you are asking about so you CANNOT do them. Period.
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To be sure, the pits have played hell with several AP encounters I've played in, most of them involving giants. As it turns out, most of them don't have ranks in Climb, and find getting back up, even bracing against both sides, to be a challenge.
It does seem to me that being able to negate an entire suite of spells with a DC 10 skill check doesn't pass the smell test. There are a small handful of effects in the game that allow a second chance to avoid the bad thing happening to you: The necromantic ray spells, Phantasmal Killer. This is not in that grouping.
Even if we were to interpret that there was a possibility of catching yourself before falling all the way into the pit, your interpretation that the faller would get to use the DC of the slope, rather than the DC of the wall, is completely in the "GM's decision" realm. As a GM, I would find a DC 35 climb check a more plausible last-ditch solution to denying a spell's impact than a DC 10 check, which would render the spells nearly ineffective.
I like to follow up a pit spell with either black tentacles or a cloud spell.
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To be sure, the pits have played hell with several AP encounters I've played in, most of them involving giants. As it turns out, most of them don't have ranks in Climb, and find getting back up, even bracing against both sides, to be a challenge.
It does seem to me that being able to negate an entire suite of spells with a DC 10 skill check doesn't pass the smell test. There are a small handful of effects in the game that allow a second chance to avoid the bad thing happening to you: The necromantic ray spells, Phantasmal Killer. This is not in that grouping.
Even if we were to interpret that there was a possibility of catching yourself before falling all the way into the pit, your interpretation that the faller would get to use the DC of the slope, rather than the DC of the wall, is completely in the "GM's decision" realm. As a GM, I would find a DC 35 climb check a more plausible last-ditch solution to denying a spell's impact than a DC 10 check, which would render the spells nearly ineffective.
Then you would be going against the exact written words of the core rulebook. It designates that climbing all slopes is a DC 0 unless specified otherwise. It also states that the DC for catching hold of a slope is "much easier" then catching hold of a wall.
Also though Giants don't have ranks in Climb they usually don't need it since it can be tried untrained and they get to use their monster Strength score on it. This is why I recommended to the OP if he wanted to tone this spell down to give his creatures 1 rank in climb. That solves the OP nature of this spell.
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Then you would be going against the exact written words of the core rulebook. It designates that climbing all slopes is a DC 0 unless specified otherwise. It also states that the DC for catching hold of a slope is "much easier" then catching hold of a wall.Also though Giants don't have ranks in Climb they usually don't need it since it can be tried untrained and they get to use their monster Strength score on it. This is why I recommended to the OP if he wanted to tone this spell down to give his creatures 1 rank in climb. That solves the OP nature of this spell.
Except that my spell's victim is in a square with a DC 25 wall and adjacent to the DC 0 slope. Even presuming that they fill the five foot square, they are still physically present in open space. Catching the side doesn't move them, so the square they are in has no ground. The DC ought to calculate off of the dominant terrain feature of the square they occupy. If you wanted to argue for only the people on the slope getting that DC 10 check, that probably has more ground, no pun intended...well, ok, maybe a little.
More important to me, however, is that is slightly preposterous to have a DC 10 skill check negate a 4th level spell, like Acid pit. That's a play style thing, though. I agree with giving Giants a rank in Climb, as I think the Pit spells' ability to hose them is OP.
Doesnt it say some where that specific rules trumps general general rules? So shouldnt you go by spell description since the description is more specific than general rules? Also the reflex save is for when you end your turn on the border. So climbing during your turn does you no good if end your turn on border and fail your save.
lol welcome to my world. The wizard in my game does uses this a lot too. Its worse when they upgrade the spell too..hungry pit, spiked pit..
I know how you feel.
Space the enimies out and maybe if you have a spell caster use dispel magic.
I hate it too as it kind of stuffs up a lot of encounters.
just remember all the stuff that becomes unattendet objekts the moment the baddie die in the pit.;)
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Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.
The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.
For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.
Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.
I like to follow up a pit spell with either black tentacles or a cloud spell.
I like to follow up a pit spell with Aqueous Orb, but only for the most deserving of opponents. :)
I'm with Meager and the others; the Create Pit spell lists the save for its effect. No rules-lawyering a second save unless you want to spend a Hero Point.
I think it was SKR who admitted the spell is "pretty effective for its level", but it's not really broken. Use the rules for anyone who approaches the sloped edges, and the opponents in the bottom are simply removed from the battle for a few rounds, not necessarily helpless. It makes a great obstacle, and thus, a battlefield control spell.
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Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.
The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.
For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.
Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.
Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.
Also please explain how in the world can you be on the slope AND falling at the same time? You are either on the ground or you are falling through the air, it's not possible to be doing both at the same time.
@bookeeper, How can you defeat a 3rd level spell (mirror Image) with a free action (closing your eyes)? Or any level of spell that sets a target on fire with a water skin?
The power of a spell doesn't matter when it comes into contact with the rules of the game. If the rules say the universe works this way and the spell doesn't specifically say it changes how the universe works then the universal rules beat the spell 100% of the time.
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@bookeeper, How can you defeat a 3rd level spell (mirror Image) with a free action (closing your eyes)? Or any level of spell that sets a target on fire with a water skin?The power of a spell doesn't matter when it comes into contact with the rules of the game. If the rules say the universe works this way and the spell doesn't specifically say it changes how the universe works then the universal rules beat the spell 100% of the time.
Because I'm not defeating the spell: in Mirror Image's case, I am trading one set of problems (chance to hit an image) for another (the blind condition). In the event of putting out someone on fire, are you referring to the immediate effect of the spell or the condition of being on fire left behind by failing a save? My waterskin doesn't allow me a second chance to avoid the 3d6 from a Flaming Sphere. It just means I won't be on fire next turn. The spell has still done its thing. Is there a circumstance where my handy-dandy waterskin allows me to negate a spell, as opposed to stopping an ongoing condition that happens after the spell?
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This is a rare thing for me to say, but... I'm inclined to agree with DrDeth.
That said, I think some clarification is in order. A FAQ would be welcome;
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If u feel the wizard is basically spamming the spell and u are in a homebrew game, remember what every player should know. "Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander". Have said wizard encounter a lil bit higher level wizard who flys and just spams pit on the wizard. Hell u could set it up by having a "pet" or something the wizard loved and if the wizard does the pit, have the wizard fly intoa rage and just spam pit onto said wizard for retaliation. Of cohrse do not kill the wizard, just basically have the wizard cast pit eerytime the wizard got out of one and fly off and or go invisible or whatnot.
Of course that is a very bad idea but when players take advantage of a certain ability and spam it constantly sucking out your fun and trivolizing ur work and effort, sometimes its nice and fun to think of ways we problemly never should act on to show and let said person experience how it feels to be on the receiving end.
Thankfully there are many ways to counter as posters have stated and even make the spell last the full duration even when combat is over.
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For those saying you can catch yourself on the slope, how do you deal with the ramifications of your interpretation?
More specifically, does this mean you can now catch yourself whenever you fall down a more conventional pit trap with a DC 10 climb check? Are you saying this is intentional?
Following the rules to the end via this interpretation creates farcical situations where, for example, you can catch yourself only if there is a slope, but if the square adjacent is flat and the lip has handholds, you can't (the rules only allow you to catch yourself on a slope, no mention of a flat surface).
It seems clear to me that the rules are intended to not allow a DC 10 climb check unless you are falling down the slope (IE in the same square). To interpret the rules any other way creates quite severe uninentional consequences when applied outside of the create pit spell. I don't see a need for an FAQ.
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Interesting read.
I'm pretty certain the intent of the Climb skill isn't to allow a DC10 check to foil the entire line of pit spells, and wouldn't be giving a person with a 10ft pit created beneath them a DC10 climb check as a secondary "save" mechanic if they fail their Reflex save.
If you read the section in it's entirety, it's talking about catching yourself on a wall, which is really meaning that you are moving parallel to the wall's surface, which is why the check is such a high DC. I don't think you can take the slope sentence and ignore the context of it following the prior sentence, which is essentially saying if you are moving parallel to the slope's surface, it's easier to catch yourself.
When the person with the pit has it created underneath them, they aren't "sliding down a slope" (and thus aren't traveling parallel to the slope). Instead they are "falling down a pit", which means they suffer the harder DC from falling straight down. The existence of a nearby 45 degree plane shouldn't make it easier for them to avoid falling than the existence of a 90 degree plane.
I agree with Blakmane, there's no need for a FAQ.
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Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.
The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.
For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.
Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.
Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.
Also please explain how in the world can you be on the slope AND falling at the same time? You are either on the ground or you are falling through the air, it's not possible to be doing both at the same time.
@bookeeper, How can you defeat a 3rd level spell (mirror Image) with a free action (closing your eyes)? Or any level of spell that sets a target on fire with a water skin?
The power of a spell doesn't matter when it comes into contact with the rules of the game. If the rules say the universe works this way and the spell doesn't specifically say it changes how the universe works then the universal rules beat the spell 100% of the time.
Falling down a slope: http://youtu.be/Hn-4JziqcEI
How about looking at it from this perspective? Is there a rule for catching yourself at a ledge (a right angle)? That would necessarily be easier than either A) catching yourself on a vertical surface, or B) at a sloped ledge (greater than a 90 degree angel relative to you).
How can you catch yourself on a slope if you aren't on a slope? Why would you assume that falling with a slope within reach (as in the Create Pit example) be so much easier than catching yourself against a wall? Easier, sure, but 25 points easier? That makes no sense.
Closing your eyes to "defeat" Mirror Image isn't a purely positive solution: you end up with a 50% miss chance, and are doing nothing to erode the difficulty in hitting the target with Mirror Image up, and open yourself to everything that comes with the Blinded condition, unless you're only closing your eyes while you're making your attack rolls, which some GMs would not permit.
Your supposition about the rules of the game and how they govern the universe only works if you disregard the facts that spells often change these rules, and that there IS a design intent behind things, and a nod toward balance. There aren't many spells out there that allow a character to negate their effects through a very easy skill check, and even fewer that allow a character to semi-negate a failed save that the spell calls for with an easy skill check.
Why don't you start a thread to FAQ this to put the argument to rest?
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That would be against slipping into the pit when you're standing on the sloped surface around it. If you fail your Reflex and fall into the pit, you would be rolling Climb vs. DC 45. And even in the case of slipping into the pit, I'd say you'd be rolling against the same DC--the Climb check of 10 + slope's DC is to catch yourself from sliding down the slope, not from falling off the end of it, and allowing a Climb check in that circumstance would negate the Reflex save that the spell calls for. I wouldn't allow someone to do that. Catching yourself falling into the pit? Sure, but I'd like to see someone make that DC 45 check at a level where Create Pit is still relevant.
As I wrote earlier it's a DC 10 climb check to catch yourself from sliding down a slope and falling into a bit. This means any target who makes that check doesn't move so the only need to crawl 10 feet to be completely out of the pit's area. If they can make a DC 15 check then the move at half speed (usually 15 feet more or less).
the reason 1 point is usually enough is Climb is on 80% of the creature types out there's class skill list. This gives them 1 +3 +(Str/Dex Bonus) vs that DC 10 making this an almost automatic success to avoid falling into the pit AND making it out.
Everyone puts a point into the climb skill for a reason and this is one of those reasons.
Now you are making assumptions that are in no way written anywhere in this spell or skill and have already been addressed earlier in this thread.
But to state it again, NO the check is not to avoid slipping into the pit. The written rules specifically say FALLING not slipping or sliding or whatever other term you want to use, it's strictly FALLING.
You fall the reflex save and you fall, the climb rules state any time you fall you can make a climb check to grab wall and not fall. If there is a slope it is always an easier check.
Since the spell doesn't state a DC for the slope you use the default of 0+10 for...
I believe that the "catch yourself while falling" rules are specifically for when you fall while trying to climb a wall/slope.
But even using them this way- you don't get to catch yourself on the slope when the pit is created under you. You might be able to reach into a square where there is a slope, but you are not on a slope. It's being on the slope that makes it easier because the ground is supporting some/most of your weight. Reaching in to the sloped square doesn't give you the support.
Edit- Gahh. Ninjaed (by hours!)
"Where does it say you must be on the slope?" In the section you quoted about catching yourself while falling:
It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).
It's not the target's turn in initiative. In fact, what you propose would be similar to someone about to be hit by a fireball, missing their reflex save, and saying well I ran out of the way.
It doesn't matter that it isn't your turn because catching yourself is specifically a non-action that you can attempt when you fall.
So it isn't like running out of a fireball at all.
Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.
The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.
For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.
Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.
Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.
Also please explain how in the world can you be on the slope AND falling at the same time? You are either on the ground or you are falling through the air, it's not possible to be doing both at the same time.
Where? Really? How about in the rule that everyone has been quoting all this time? But, here you go:
Catch Yourself When Falling: It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling, yet if you wish to attempt such a difficult task, you can make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).
As you can see, it specifically states "on a slope". If you are not "on a slope" then you cannot use the "on a slope" DC. Adjacent to a slope is not "on a slope".
Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.
Please explain where it says you can use a condition assigned to terrain ADJACENT to you when it is beneficial. You can't because it isn't there.
Would this fly?
"The archer takes a pot shot at you."
"I reach my arms and hug the tree in the next square. You said being in the foliage gives you cover, so I get +4 to my AC."
Rules say you can grab something in an adjacent space, that's correct, but as an action. Can I pick up a sword as a free action? No, it's a move action, it takes SOME of your action economy.
What you suggest results in 1)Being able to take as many actions as one wants out of turn, as long as what they do is in an adjacent space. 2)Gives everyone 10 or even 15 foot reach. 3)Gives a player (or NPC/Monster) "access" to any beneficial effect active in any of the 8 squares it is adjacent to.
Something tells me this is against RAI.
Please explain where it says you can use a condition assigned to terrain ADJACENT to you when it is beneficial. You can't because it isn't there.
Well, I mean, you do kinda have to be next to the wall while falling, cause if something was in your square, you would be standing on it.
I personally agree, you would need to be in the area of the slope to use the slope DC, but just figured that bore mentioning.
Create Pit isn't a problem. What is the party fighter or barbarian doing. If they move to the edge, they risk falling in. Neither has great reflex saves. And if they can see the monster, the monster can see them and use ranged attacks back.
Honestly, Grease is spammed more often and with greater effect.
Aye, have to agree here. People above have already described why shooting down into the pit at enemies is problematic. And if you're in confined spaces the pit can be a hindrance as much as a benefit.
I've used it several times but it was at its most effective when it was used as a deterrent to prevent our party being flanked. Hearing your allies screaming from a pit full of spikes/acid is quite off-putting.
Grease on the other hand. Lol. I'm still disarming brutes of their weapons with this 1st level spell at 11th lvl.
I think it also bears stating that it helps to keep the PC's at reasonable power...lower beginning stats and limits on wealth/treasure can make the DM's job a LOT easier.
Both those things just cause martials to suck earlier.
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If you move through the web, it's difficult terrain and you might get stuck. If you move over the pit, you fall in and take damage and get stuck in there unless you're flying (and it's a 2nd level spell, so it comes on line long before constant flight is a given). Web provides cover, but you can stick allies in create pit and break line of effect entirely.You don't need to be flying. If you move over the pit, you get to the other side with an easy DC 10 Acrobatics check--the lowest the Reflex save can be to avoid getting stuck in the web is 13, if it's off a scroll.
You are laving out a few modifier:
- the border of the pit is sloped to the point that you need to make a reflex save to avoid falling in the pit if you end your movement on the border of the pit, that is a +2 to +5 modifier:Slightly sloped (<45°) +2
Severely sloped (>45°) +5
(I would say +5, to account for the need of a reflex save)
- you need to move for 10' before jumping or the DC of the jump double:
"These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start."
- you need to clear a 10' hole. Jumping exactly 10' make you fall in the hole. So the base DC is at least 11 for a 11' jump, not 10.
So the minimum DC for the jump is 13 if you think that the slope has a angle of less than 45°, more credibly 16.
Add the encumbrance and armor checks penalties and it isn't not so easy to make the jump. If your base move is 20' or less you need to use 2 movement actions or your DC would double ad " No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round." and you will have to move 10' before jumping.
Halfling, gnomes and other races will have a -4 to the check as their base move is less than 30'.
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If you move through the web, it's difficult terrain and you might get stuck. If you move over the pit, you fall in and take damage and get stuck in there unless you're flying (and it's a 2nd level spell, so it comes on line long before constant flight is a given). Web provides cover, but you can stick allies in create pit and break line of effect entirely.As long as you have the movement, clearing the pit is not an issue. Its a dc 10 to jump it (hint you can take 10 to jump). You are only at risk of falling in if you END your turn on the edge of the pit. So if you can move 25 feet (10ft to get running start, 10ft over the put and 5 feet past it) there is exactly zero risk in getting past a pit. After it is cast, unless people actively try to push enemies into it, it just takes up space.
You can't take 10 to jump a pit while in combat. If you aren't in combat you can easily wait till the spell end. And the DC isn't 10, as explained above.
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Claxon: I think what Samasboy1's saying is that if one side of the "virtual hole" opens onto an open space, create pit does not impose a barrier to block people from crawling into the pit from that open side.
It don't work that way. The "virtual hole" is a extradimensional space. If you were tunnelling 1' under the edge of the pit you would find earth or rock, not the pit. Similarly if you cast it on the hull of a ship you don't open an hole and you will not sink it.
You can certainly Fly out of a Pit. You can't just Fly out of a Web.If you can climb up why cant you fly up?If you move through the web, it's difficult terrain and you might get stuck. If you move over the pit, you fall in and take damage and get stuck in there unless you're flying (and it's a 2nd level spell, so it comes on line long before constant flight is a given). Web provides cover, but you can stick allies in create pit and break line of effect entirely.Web- save and still in the Web.
Pit- save and out of the Pit.
Huge difference.
Get stuck? It's a DC 20 climb check, assuming you're smart enuf to climb in a corner. With a decent skill, you can be out in one round. And Levitate is a 2nd level spell, so is Spiderclimb.
In order to bypass Web, one needs Freedom of Movement. Even Fly won't help.
Ever checked the DC to do that and the movement cost? Having seen a transformed oracle without skill in flying trying to fly out of a pit, I can attest that if you don't have point in the fly skill you will not fly out of it before the spell end.
Flying Maneuver Fly DC
Move less than half speed and remain flying 10
Hover 15
Turn greater than 45° by spending 5 feet of movement 15
Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement 20
Fly up at greater than 45° angle 20
So we have our fighter in a pit with a potion of flying.
Flying straight up? DC 20, he has a +2 from the potion (CL 5, the good manoeuvrability don't give a bonus as it is not a form of natural flight), maybe another 2 points from his dexterity, let's say he has enough armor training to offset his armor penalties, total +4. his fly move is 40', flying up halve that, so 2 moves to exit the pit. He need to make a check with each move and succeed with 16+. 6.25% of clearing the pit each round.
But it can fly at an angle of 45° and turn at the corners.
Let's look how it go: still going up, so double cost for the movement. Total move in a round 80'.
Start in a corner, fly 10' and climb 10', cost 20'
Reach the corner, he need to make a 90° tun, so he pay 5' of movement (total 25') and has to make a DC 15 fly check. With a +4, 50% chance of success. Another 10' to the next corner, another 10' up to a height of 20', another 20' of movement used, to a total of 45'
Another corner, so another turn, DC 15, 50% chance of success, total move used 50'. A 25% chance of getting here.
After the turn he can go move and when he reach the next corner he is at the edge of the pit, so he don't need to turn. To make those 10' he spend 20' of movement for a total of 70'
But he need to clear the border of the pit, so he need to climb above it. He fly straight ahead and up for what is left of his movement 10', but he pay double as he is still climbing (or he could land on the border of the pit but then he can't move). So he move another 5' as he is paying double. total move in the round 35'. Another flying check at 10 or he fall. Guess where? on the border of the pit.
Chance to make all the checks? 50%*50%*75%= 18.75%
Wouldn't jumping 11 feet put you one foot past the hole?
edit- didn't know that about the skill bonus from fly speeds. I've been running that wrong. Though it makes me wonder what the point of mentioning maneuverability in flight spells is.
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Create Pit is a complicated spell but remember it actually allows 2 chances to resist it.
Once your bad guy has failed his save against the spell he is still entitled to a immediate climb check to catch himself from actually falling into the pit.
Catch Yourself When Falling
It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).
DC Example Surface or Activity
0 A slope too steep to walk up, or a knotted rope with a wall to brace against.Remember all the wall spells specifically call out that there is a slope that the target slides down before falling into the pit.
That means a target who fails the save needs to make a DC 10-ish climb check to avoid falling into the pit. Now they are prone and probably flat footed while they climb up the slope and leave the area of the pit so it's still a nasty spell but it's not the complete end of the world that most GM's have been complaining about.Now if your critter can't make that Climb check then they are still completely shut down but at least this gives you a chance.
Thanks for the head up, as I had forgot that rule, but the DC is 10 only if the character is on the slope and fail the Save.
If he is in the area of the pit when the spell is cast and fail the save the DC is 45.Edit:
You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can't move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can't use a shield while climbing. Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall. Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage.
I hope your hands were free, or your weapon will end at the bottom of the pit even if you make the climb check. To try it you have to drop anything you have in your hands.
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Wouldn't jumping 11 feet put you one foot past the hole?
edit- didn't know that about the skill bonus from fly speeds. I've been running that wrong. Though it makes me wonder what the point of mentioning maneuverability in flight spells is.
Exact. You need to clear a 10' hole, not jump 10'. So you need to start before the 10' hole and end your jump on the other side.
About fly: the text of the sell hasn't changed from the 3.X to Pathfinder, but Pathfinder has added the fly skill.
In my home game, I've bumped up the spell level of all create pit spells by 1. That seems to do the trick for me.
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But alright, if you get a pit popped underneath you, you can make a single DC 35 (or more, depending on the type of pit) climb check to then be tangling at the first 5 feet down the hole.15 feet*
The sloped section consumes the top 10 feet, you'd be "3 squares down."
Geometrically speaking.
It is a extra dimensional space, I think that it don't follow a 3 dimensional geometry.
So the border is sloped but it don't go below the surrounding terrain (the spell don't change the surrounding terrain in any way) and it don't change the height of the hole.From what we know the "slope" can be a change in the local gravity, so that while the terrain is perfectly flat there is a diagonal pull toward the hole.
Notice that the terrain around the hole don't become difficult terrain.
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Just a point here, the pro-slope arguments are missing the fact that you have to be ON the slope. That is written into the rule.
The slope only exists around the 10x10 pit. The 10x10 pit is not a slope, it is a sheer wall and as such if the pit is opened up underneath a target they cannot use the climb-slope rule.
For targets adjacent to the pit then, yes, you can use the slope rule.
Summary: you have to be on the slope to use the climb skill's slope DC. Adjacent to the slope is not what the rule is.
Please show us anywhere in the rule as written where it says you have to be on the slope? It's not there so you won't find it.
Also please explain how in the world can you be on the slope AND falling at the same time? You are either on the ground or you are falling through the air, it's not possible to be doing both at the same time.
@bookeeper, How can you defeat a 3rd level spell (mirror Image) with a free action (closing your eyes)? Or any level of spell that sets a target on fire with a water skin?
The power of a spell doesn't matter when it comes into contact with the rules of the game. If the rules say the universe works this way and the spell doesn't specifically say it changes how the universe works then the universal rules beat the spell 100% of the time.
Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.
The climb check is based on the surface you are climbing.
The guy in the pit area when the spell is cast is climbing the wall, not the slope.
I've used it several times without an issue. It creates a hindrance that comes in handy for stupid monsters like mindless undead and slowing people down in general. Its usually not as good as Web, but can be cast in more places. I'm afraid I just don't see how it could be called "broken" in the slightest and it seems to be level-appropriate.
The spell description has all the relevant details about saving throws and whatnot. The climb rules only come into play when you're trying to get out of the thing that I can see. Some folks have ruled that using corners of the pit to climb make it easy to get out of, but that makes the Pit easy to get out of. I do wonder if its just a straight "DC 25" no matter where you are, as large creatures in particular aren't very challenged by the low DCs (DC10, if they use opposite walls and a corner to brace) it will take to escape. Maybe that's the point, though, as the Pit looks to be something that's intended to slow something down for a round or 2 for control purposes and not an inescapable prison.
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Saying that the target is not 'in the area of the slope' and thus can't catch themselves is like saying a character falling past a rope or a balcony ledge 20 feet down from the top of their fall can't try and catch it because they aren't in the same...
This has been discussed ad infinitum in the posts above your. By your interpretation, it is a DC 10 climb check to avoid falling into any conventional pit trap, trap door, spiked pit etc etc, magical or not, because you can simply grab the ledge. This is clearly against both RAW and RAI.
To put it another way, there are two interpretations here. The one you are suggesting breaks an entire line of spells AND renders normal traps that include a fall useless unless they are at least 15-20ft wide. The other.... doesn't break anything. I wonder which one is intended?