This isn't a spoiler on how the fight went (even though being on youtube means it has already been seen on television, except in Italy :( ) but rather a question:
What stats should both fighters have and how to run the duel with PF ?
Essentially it is a test : a very heavily armored,slow moving hard hitter vs a lightly armored, fast moving foe relying on flurry of blows to weaken the opponent, rather than one hit kill.
The hard part is the limitation move action-standard action.....the light armored foe is going to be crushed in the first 1 or 2 rounds since if he takes the attack action he cannot move out of range, and if he does so, he has no time to attack.
Not that i have to play it any time soon, but it is an interesting scenario to put at a table, so i'm very curious.
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Depending on level and class there are many ways to do this. Spring Attack plus something like pre-Errata Crane Wing (or Snake Style even now to some degree) can definitely manage this, as can a Swashbuckler making strategic use of the Parry and Riposte and Dodging Panache (though the latter can get Panache-intensive).
In short, he moves, attacks, and then ensures his foe doesn't get a full attack, and (ideally) has enough AC or other defenses to be well-nigh untouchable. Thus just whittling away at the heavily armored guy.
This thread also seems relevant to your interests, as does this one.
The viper should have spring attack. That takes care of the action economy you mentioned.
Apart from that both should be high level guys.
I'd suggest mobile fighter 5/scout rogue 8 for the viper.
I could imagine the viper as a swashbuckler who can use his staff as a finesse weapon and all the others. Especially the dodge and move away stuff works wonderfully. Maybe even with some style feats.
I really wish Oberyn didn't let his guard down, I liked him!
To be relevant, this is a very interesting exercise. I think the mobile fighter/spring attack idea is quite fitting for Oberyn. At 11th level the archetype let's you pseudo-full attack (giving up the highest BaB attack) with spring attack. Between that and reach AoOs, he could put up quite a fight.
His opening was pretty much the definition of dazzling display, even though I don't think it had any effect on Ser Gregor :P Make me think maybe dazzling display should be a full-round action that let's you move your speed during. It'd certainly be a bit more useful.
something to realize is the ring was probably just a 4x4 grid(maybe bigger I can't remember the ring that well) in pathfinder, squares are big 5x5ft things, and a lot of movement occurs in those 5 feet, so any dodging he did is just due to high dodge bonus.
Martells spear was poisoned, so he probably has something with poison use.
if anything, he has high dexterity and weapon finesse, probably agile maneuvers. He probably has high CMD. probably a bunch of feats from the dodge/mobility feat tree.
Ser Gregor Clegane, probably either a fighter or barbarian with an insane amount of Con and Strength. probably using power attack and/or vital strike, but kept missing. eventually while prone and dying he tripped his enemy and then grappled him to pin and then death.
You could also create an Exotic Weapon called "Dornish spear", which is a spear with the finesse quality, and then go Duelist or Swashbuckler.
I'm actually pretty sure, Martell was a Fighter with a level dip in assassin.
Clegan might have even been an Armiger with the physical exemplar archetype.
You could also create an Exotic Weapon called "Dornish spear", which is a spear with the finesse quality, and then go Duelist or Swashbuckler.
Has to be a one-handed weapon to qualify. This would work, though:
Dornish Spearman
You are adept at wielding a spear with agility, rather than brute strength.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, proficiency with the shortspear, spear, or longspear.
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with a shortspear, spear, or longspear sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. In addition, you can treat a spear or longspear as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as the swashbuckler's precise strike).
Me likes! Now I have to convince my gm to allow it.
I'm actually pretty sure, Martell was a Fighter with a level dip in assassin.This would necessitate Evil alignment, which isn't true to the character at all. A dip in Ninja or Rogue (Poisoner) works just as well without that particular problem.
that's because of how the assassin is flavored, but yeah those 2 work just as well, irregardless of my lack of knowledge on them before just now.
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I don't think evil alignment for Oberyn is completely out of the question. Part of his backstory involved an incident wherein he poisoned a spear and killed his opponent (whose wife he was having adultery with, no less) in a duel that was meant to be fought to the first blood rather than to the death. That has evil act written all over it.
He's also pretty heroic on occasion. I'd say that probably averages out somewhere around Neutral.
It is ASOIAF after all, where pretty much every character is some shade of evil. Even the 'good guy' starks are lawful neutral at best, and 'mary sue' Danaerys teeters between chaotic good and chaotic evil.
This meanwhile, is basically a load of crap (it's more accurate to say that few people are either Good or Evil, but even that's too simplistic). But also seriously off-topic.
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So? Attack and move. The issue is to prevent the opponent having full attacks. Whether you do that by attacking mid-move or by moving away after attacking is rather immaterial.well....
srping attack wont work well, as after round 1, it cant be activated (need to start 10' away... )you are wrong...
mountain will charge and attack - lets say miss or hit (matter not) the outcome is they are both adjacent = srping attack aint working..." You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn"
You misunderstand, I'm not saying it works in that case, I'm saying it doesn't matter. You can still standard action attack then move away with a Move action, using Acrobatics to avoid the AoO. Thus avoiding a Full Attack. It's a solid strategy if you have either ridiculous AC or a way to avoid one attack per round.
What he was trying to tell you was that, in this case, you just full attack and move away. You get a full attack, he doesn't. If you have spring attack you have mobility, too. So the AoO he can get in for you moving away is at -4.
If every turn goes like that the viper gets his standard attack +1 AoO while the mountain gets one standard attack +1 AoO at -4. It depends strongly on the level and feats who comes out on top by that. But on first sight it looks like the viper has the upper hand.
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I'm having a hard time seeing either of these guys at 12th level. At 12th, your friends and co-workers can teleport and plane shift. At 12th level, Oberyn could wade through lava and emerge alive, without having any particular resistance to fire.
GoT is a lower fantasy world. A simple raise dead spell is absolutely the most dramatic display of PF level-dependent stuff we see, so an upper level of 9th is not unreasonable, with guys like Gregor being closer to 6th (having an iterative attack is a VERY big deal, in that kind of setting).
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I can't see ASOIAF going any higher than E6. Even the setting's top-tier fighters (Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, Robert Baratheon) would be level 6 at best.
This is a world where rank-and-file soldiers are all 1st level and mostly Commoners, with the odd Warrior here and there. On top of that, the highborn generally have a better statline than the smallfolk due to better childhood nutrition.
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Dm: FIGHT!
Oberyn: I got a 24 for initiative. I'll use dazzling display and performance combat to Rile up the crowd and scare him! HUah! *Hands the DM a note in a sealed envelope*
Mountain: Meh. Whatever. Can we get on with this?
Oberyn: Ok, I spring attack at him , dart in... 6 points of damage?
Mountain: Seriously? That's it? Ok, i take 4 points of damage. There goes my pinkie. Run forward and...
Oberyn: Reach! Attack of opportunity for another 5
Mountain: Oh no. You hurt my widdle toe. SWING! Hah. amn 18.
Oberyn: Miss!
Mountain: "What? Who he hell gets an AC that high in this system?
Oberyn: "well, a 20 dex, dodge, swashbuckler levels...
Mountain: Alright alright. Your turn.
Oberyn: I Spring attack again, dart in... slice! 4 points of damage.
Mountain: Ok, screw this. Ready action.
Oberyn: Ok, i dart in atta...
Mountain: 5 foot forward. SUNDER. Oh no, minimum damage to your weapon.. thats only a 20 points.
Obery: What the hell! I have reach
DM: He can 5 foot as part of a readied action to close the gap.
Oberyn: ack! Acrobatics my way over to my squire "Need another one! The nice pretty polished one."
Mountain: What the hell! How come he gets another spear?
DM: Its in the dueling rules. Didn't you read them?
Mountain: Not really... I thought I'd just swing and he;d die."
Oberyn: Ok, going to demoralize him with an intimdate. "You killed my sister! You murdered her!"
Mountain: Did I? *looks over background* Wow. I did. I was drunk when i came up with this background wasn't I?
Dm: Very.
Mountain takes a few swings, keeps getting single digits. Oberyn keeps Slicing away for a point here and there and demoralizing.
Mountain: ENOUGH with that already! I get it. You have a motivation.
Oberyn: Alright then... CHARGE! Nat 20! CRIT!~ 18 damage... down you go bigman
Mountain: Awwwww... crap.Puts me at -16 of 18 " pouts and tips over mini. "Stupid dice.
Oberyn: *player doing victory dance* "Who's the man, who's the man? I'm the man, you're the corpse. Wooot woot!
Mountain: OH right.. forgot i had die hard. .
Oberyn: BOYAAAAAAAAH! Told you finesse was viable,
DM: Hey, Private Dancer, Perception check.
Oberyn: Rolls a 4 "Who needs wisdom in a game with no will saves? "
Mountain: "Grapple check... even from prone thats a 20....
Oberyn: Ha! Can't grab this. My CMD is..24
DM: Without dex? You didn't notice he's still alive. This is a surprise attack
Oberyn: Oh hell...
Mountain: So I loose 1 hit point. Welcome to the hug!
Oberyn: ... dammit, i forgot to get a dagger. Try to escape the grapple...18?
Mountain: Mahahahaaha! Use the grapple to damage option. Ooo. oooo nat 20 and max damage!
DM: Your head explodes like an overripe melon. mountain you loose another hit point
Mountain: Hey, QUYBURN! Get over here . I need a stabilization check. What are you two smiling about I won?
Oberyn: Take a look at the note....
Wonderful ideas everyone, i feel inspired....where did i left Herolab ?
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I'm having a hard time seeing either of these guys at 12th level. At 12th, your friends and co-workers can teleport and plane shift. At 12th level, Oberyn could wade through lava and emerge alive, without having any particular resistance to fire.
GoT is a lower fantasy world. A simple raise dead spell is absolutely the most dramatic display of PF level-dependent stuff we see, so an upper level of 9th is not unreasonable, with guys like Gregor being closer to 6th (having an iterative attack is a VERY big deal, in that kind of setting).
One of the perils of trying to stat fictional characters in Pathfinder is the inability of Pathfinder characters to do anything interesting without loading them up with feats. The world may be lower fantasy compared to D&D/ PF (and what isn't), but you damn near need to be in the late teens level wise to make Oberyn's fighting style POSSIBLE, much less effective.
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Human fighter
Dodge, mobility, spring attack, Combat reflexes
You're good by level 4.
Weapon focus, dazzling display
poison use
Though if I recall, E6 games grant more feats after max level, right?
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For anyone thinking that they are high level, they would be able to challenge or kill a true CR 17 like this.
I don't read the books, and haven't see humans fight real supernatural foes in the series, except for John Snow and his fat friend i don't remember the name just now, who killed some things like zombies (white walker's spawns maybe ?).
Would like to see the best fighters of the setting against white walkers or dragons (sorry Daenerys).
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Definitely an E6 game.
Combine Spring Attack with Snake Style. Now they are both down to Standard Actions since the spring attack forces the other to move, but as he receives a blow (oberyn) he can use Snake Style to negate it.
So crank that Sense Motive. I think it fits well.
edit: and as bignorsewolf suggests, put in Combat Reflexes.
I don't read the books, and haven't see humans fight real supernatural foes in the series, except for John Snow and his fat friend i don't remember the name just now, who killed some things like zombies (white walker's spawns maybe ?).
Would like to see the best fighters of the setting against white walkers or dragons (sorry Daenerys).
A few of the normals have fought with the dragons.
Went about as well as can be expected.
A first attempt, to stay in theme with the setting i skipped the magic items ; the abilities were initially 20 pnts, but i had to overspent to 25 just to get to dex 20. Also not too high level.
Oberyn "Red Viper" Martell
Human Fighter 6/Ninja 1
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +5 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 44 (6d10+1d8)
Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +2 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee longspear +10/+5 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6, weapon trainings (spears +1)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 13
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 24
Feats Acrobatic, Dazzling Display, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (longspear), Weapon Specialization (longspear)
Traits charming, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +20, Bluff +8 (+9 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Climb +6, Diplomacy +6 (+7 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Escape Artist +11, Fly +7, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +8, Perception +7, Perform (dance) +6, Stealth +12, Swim +6
Languages Common, Other Language
SQ armor training 1, poison use
Other Gear studded leather, longspear
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Charming +1 Bluff/Diplomacy/save DC for a language-dependent spell vs. targets who could be sexually attracted to you.
Dazzling Display (Longspear) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Poison Use You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Sneak Attack +1d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Weapon Training (Spears) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Spears
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Congratulations BigNorseWolf on your post about the battle, very very funny.
From where do you draw that uber spoiler you mentioned? i don't remember it from the books.
This scene was also the perfect example of a player putting all his points into Dexterity, having a huge AC, weapon finese, dervish dance, spring attack, etc ...
And what happens when that player gets caught flat footed!
And here it's my attempt at The mountain. As for the Viper, lev 7, no magic items.
Gregor "The mountain" Clegane
Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 6
CE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +4
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+9 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 81 (1d12+6d10+34)
Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +1 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee gauntlet (from armor) +12/+7 (1d3+5) and
. . greatsword +14/+9 (2d6+10/19-20) and
. . unarmed strike +12/+7 (1d3+5)
Special Attacks rage (7 rounds/day), weapon trainings (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +12 (+14 grapple); CMD 23 (25 vs. grapple)
Feats Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Traits anatomist, bully
Skills Intimidate +10, Perception +4, Ride +3, Survival +5
Languages Common
SQ armor training 1
Other Gear full plate, greatsword
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Special Abilities
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Anatomist +1 to confirm critical hits.
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (7 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
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Why give him both vital strike and cleave? You can't combine the two and both are just for when you can't full attack. I'd rather give him furious focus.
@ mountain, instead of improved unarmed strike give him diehard, he just got flat-footed grapple in on him.
remove cleave give him exotic feat Mighty Sword proficiency, and then give him a mighty sword...(this part is optional)
Why give him both vital strike and cleave? You can't combine the two and both are just for when you can't full attack. I'd rather give him furious focus.
Built it in a haste, missed that, will correct the feat.
@ mountain, instead of improved unarmed strike give him diehard, he just got flat-footed grapple in on him.
remove clear give him exotic feat Mighty Sword proficiency, and then give him a mighty sword...(this part is optional)
Can i give him oversized greatsword with Herolab (of course i can correct it manually)? And i cannot find a feat allowing him to use two handed one hand, if it ever exist.
oh I said it was optional because it was third party.
mighty sword is an exotic two-hander, it's basically a useful bearing sword.(which is usually just a large sword meant for ceremonies)
anyway it does 2d8
I rolled an expy of him up for a Coliseum event I'm running tomorrow with my group, Armored Hulk Barbarian with the Giant Template. With Reach and a large sized greatsword (contemplating making it a bastard sword...) he works really well. I'mma pull a Littlefinger and explain his story as a cautionary tale for the CN Fighter who is turning more CE everyday...