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That was completely unnecessary.
If a player cannot get into the game because their character isn't the same skin tone as them, then they're probably not going to be a great role player anyhow.It's just goofy.
And Wagner was a piss poor composer because he damn sure wouldn't write about Rabi Loew and the Golem, right?
Is 'rabi loew and the golem' similar to djarapa creates a wulgaru?
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It´s one thing to say there is no elves in one setting, it´s another to say all humans are white. I would at least ask the GM why he created a setting with only his/her ethnicity. If there was a good reason (like Rokugan) i would accept it. If he/she only forgot to create dark-skinned people and for some reason he/she wouldn´t retcon because reasons, i would find it strange but i could accept it if i was the first dark-skinned person he/she meet in his/her life. But any other answer would make me think he/she is racist (or at least passive racist).
Is 'rabi loew and the golem' similar to djarapa creates a wulgaru?
That was completely unnecessary.
If a player cannot get into the game because their character isn't the same skin tone as them, then they're probably not going to be a great role player anyhow.It's just goofy.
And Wagner was a piss poor composer because he damn sure wouldn't write about Rabi Loew and the Golem, right?
Same hubris theme as Frankenstein.
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However, if you want a more isolated start, with the players only learning about the rest of the world as their isolated characters do, it doesn't work so well.
It's not as if everyone know a lot about their ancestors homeland after some generations. You could have a small enclave of dark skinned people who aren't even aware why they have dark skin, and tell stories about a great aunt that travelled as a merchant and were told there was a land of the south with people who also have dark skin just as her had, but not even are sure if they come from there originally.
The Rite Publishing Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) while not plainly stated, though some of the art reflects this, as its developer I am almost sure every Kaidanese human resident has light skin, almond shaped eyes (Mongoloid fold), and black hair if young, graying for old. I don't imagine it has white people (or any other color) wearing kimonos, rather the inhabitants look "Japanese".
While not real-world Japan, unlike Jade Regent, the place names, personal names, what little actual vocabulary is used isn't Japanese sounding words, but literally Japanese words. The very name, Kaidan, means "ghost story" in Japanese - its not a made up word for a Japan analog.
Though more insensitive than their real world counterparts, the Kaidanese (at least the officials) are extremely xenophobic. The Japanese word for foreigners, gaijin (which roughly translates to "long noses"), when used to classify foreigners is a derogatory usage. In fact the only port of entry for foreigners to Kaidan is located on an island and fishing port called Gaijinoshima (which means island of the foreigners.)
Since the intro trilogy of modules to Kaidan, The Curse of the Golden Spear, like Jade Regent AP, involves a party of "western" PCs visiting the exotic far east. The first half of the first module is trying to deal with locals as despised foreigners, trying to get diplomatic channels to open so they can acquire the proper traveling papers to move across country and complete the adventure. The local government is not too keen on allowing foreigners to travel about freely.
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The only game I've actually been in or run where dark-skinned humans would have been a problem was one where humans were and always had been isolated to part of one smallish continent and thus were unlikely to have split into different races. Thinking about it now, if someone had asked about playing a dark-skinned character I should have told them that they all were of course. :)
Oh, I suppose the game with no humans would count too, technically.
This make me remember one question i made before, if everyone evolved from black people in Africa, why you never see black caveman images or in movies ? I would understand if it was because of fear of racism accusations of retrating black people as primitive. But even before when no one had this fear, black people were show as cavemen. As if they were created after cavemen times. Even in science fiction with devolutions rays firing everywhere, no non-white person was ever devolved into a cavemen.
This make me remember one question i made before, if everyone evolved from black people in Africa, why you never see black caveman images or in movies ? I would understand if it was because of fear of racism accusations of retrating black people as primitive. But even before when no one had this fear, black people were show as cavemen. As if they were created after cavemen times. Even in science fiction with devolutions rays firing everywhere, no non-white person was ever devolved into a cavemen.
While not movies, per se, but just about every Nova, Discovery Channel, BBC documentary on humans vs. Neanderthal, etc. the humans are usually black people, with the Neanderthal and Austrapithicus looking like white people with brow ridges. So without treatment of racial accusations the documentary film industry seems to have no problem depicting human cavemen as black skinned.
In the setting I run, it's based on the Caribbean, both pre-Columbian and Latin American. It has native kingdoms based on the Taino and Carib cultures and colonies based on the different European kingdoms that were huge players in the Age of Sail (English, Spaniards, French, Dutch). In addition, there is an island that resembles Okinawa that takes inspiration from the legends of Fousang, and there is an island based on the legend of the Transatlantic Voyage of Abu Bakr II of the Mali empire. Adding a parallel to the Atlantic slave trade and an intermixing of all the kingdoms, my setting runs the gamut of different ethnicities and cultures.
I like the setting. The only issue that some people may have is slavery in some of the colonies. My current players don't mind, but if I ran it for other people, I would probably downplay it more.
I imagine the (proto-)humans were not "black men" when the migrations occurred. I would guess that just like those that left Africa (or whatever the continent/area has been named for that time period) have evolved different genotypes, those that remained in Africa also evolved overtime to even better suit their environment.
Also this post I made describes a GM I had who was pretty terrible when it came to having any non-Western European ethnicity in his games. He made an effort to continuously belittle anyone that was non-white or played a non-white character.
Don't be a Damien.
This make me remember one question i made before, if everyone evolved from black people in Africa, why you never see black caveman images or in movies ?
If done wrongly it might imply that black people are less evolved.
Even if done correctly it would be accused of doing that.
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This make me remember one question i made before, if everyone evolved from black people in Africa, why you never see black caveman images or in movies ?If done wrongly it might imply that black people are less evolved.
Even if done correctly it would be accused of doing that.
Considering that many people believe that Adam and Eve were white, this could open a very large can of mutual accusations involving religion. So, even i only accuse them of playing safe with white-only cavemen, even when people really believed that black people were less evolved.
sensitive subject is sensitive...
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Considering that many people believe that Adam and Eve were white
You really should leave over on trying to convince that crowd of anything with facts.
Also this post I made describes a GM I had who was pretty terrible when it came to having any non-Western European ethnicity in his games. He made an effort to continuously belittle anyone that was non-white or played a non-white character.
Don't be a Damien.
HOLY CRAP. I just read that post and my condolences man.
What. The s*~@.
Odraude..im sorry man.
I've been quiet on this thread because I feel like I should observe and learn what I can and not say much (and most of what I had to say I already said in the Black & Nerdy thread), but DAMN, Odraude.
Just... DAMN.
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HOLY CRAP. I just read that post and my condolences man.
What. The s!**.
Odraude..im sorry man.
I've been quiet on this thread because I feel like I should observe and learn what I can and not say much (and most of what I had to say I already said in the Black & Nerdy thread), but DAMN, Odraude.
Just... DAMN.
Yeah, Damien was a real piece of work. I think it was a year ago when I first read about that and I still have a "Damn, dude." reaction.
Eve was black. Adam was black. So far so good. They never met, in all probability. Modern science gives us good answers. :)
Also this post I made describes a GM I had who was pretty terrible when it came to having any non-Western European ethnicity in his games. He made an effort to continuously belittle anyone that was non-white or played a non-white character.
Don't be a Damien.
...mother of Christ. Dude, call the Vatican because I'm pretty sure you're up for canonization due to ANY two of those initial tests of supernatural patience and tolerance with Damien.
That's pretty good. It's given me some ideas on tweaking my setting's deities.
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I do kind of wonder why we're still making the association that we have to equate "dark skinned" with African mythology and/or cultures.
As has been stated, dark skin doesn't necessarily mean "primitive" or "savage" - and this may be my inherent loathing of the "noble savage" archetypes or the fact that even in comics and other media, Africa or African nations are still depicted as being one step off of savagery (Wakanda, I'm looking at you). But seriously, why stop at Orisha? Why even draw upon it? What says that that's the necessary starting point?
Why NOT have a bunch of folks with Sub-Saharan attributes running around drinking tea and lamenting about the state of the colonies? Turn some tropes over, for crying out loud.
I do kind of wonder why we're still making the association that we have to equate "dark skinned" with African mythology and/or cultures.
Yeah, why not aborigines of Australia, or other "dark skinned" peoples not from Africa (Africa isn't the only place where dark skinned people originate or dwell).
As has been stated, dark skin doesn't necessarily mean "primitive" or "savage" - and this may be my inherent loathing of the "noble savage" archetypes or the fact that even in comics and other media, Africa or African nations are still depicted as being one step off of savagery (Wakanda, I'm looking at you). But seriously, why stop at Orisha? Why even draw upon it? What says that that's the necessary starting point?
Why NOT have a bunch of folks with Sub-Saharan attributes running around drinking tea and lamenting about the state of the colonies? Turn some tropes over, for crying out loud.
I can agree that the noble savage shouldn't be the only representation of an African dark-skinned people, as you say, subsaharan (muslim influenced) cultures certainly do apply as well.
At the same time, however, why divorce the concept of using Orisha or even Voodan? Is there a valid reason to deny dark-skinned peoples their heritage and culture? I can see how using that as the only sources very much limits their historical contributions. At the same time, though, I see no good reason to leave it out. I would consider doing so a disservice and misrepresentation of their past. If I were building a African styled setting, I certainly would include it (though not as the only background resource.) It just wouldn't be valid to leave it out.
I'd rather be comprehensive than selective.
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I can agree that the noble savage shouldn't be the only representation of an African dark-skinned people, as you say, subsaharan (muslim influenced) cultures certainly do apply as well.
At the same time, however, why divorce the concept of using Orisha or even Voodan? Is there a valid reason to deny dark-skinned peoples their heritage and culture? I can see how using that as the only sources very much limits their historical contributions. At the same time, though, I see no good reason to leave it out. I would consider doing so a disservice and misrepresentation of their past. If I were building a African styled setting, I certainly would include it (though not as the only background resource.) It just wouldn't be valid to leave it out.
I'd rather be comprehensive than selective.
I think you missed the part where I said "why stop at" and asked why it must be the "necessary starting point". At no point did I say to exclude it. Please don't put words in my mouth. Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but it does seem to have been the result.
The point that I think you're missing is that I think that we draw too much on real-world analogues in terms of "if this person has this phenotype, they must therefore have this culture" when it comes to how we portray them in a fantasy game.
I'm not talking about "depriving people of their culture" or "misrepresenting their past" - I'm asking why the standard RPG tropes of Heavy Armored Fighter On Horse With Sword And Shield And Chivalry Tally Ho Pip Pip have to seemingly only apply to white people and why we can't turn those tropes around. Give me a race of dark skinned courtly knights living in pyramidal castles. Let them race ostriches and cheetahs while holding poetry competitions to exalt their powerful thunder god and his exorbitant strength, tempered only by his blinding mercy.
Topple the damned apple cart. Make the white folks way up north the Noble Savage. Give them the primitive gods and the nomadic cattle culture and the halfway-parodical references throughout the baseline, dark-skinned culture.
At no point am I saying to be selective or reductive. I am in fact arguing for being expansive and imaginative.
I am suggesting that perhaps using the rich and varied tapestry of Sub-Saharan* Africa as a jumping off point is great but that stopping there is simply not enough for me.
Maybe that's the reason I built my default campaign world the way I did, where the bulk of the world is brown and the pale-ish-red and pink-skinned folks from up north are viewed as barbaric, animistic neo-primitives who somehow mastered fire and metalworking, while the southern lands and peoples are where the freaking cradle of civilization and history exists. Who can say.
I get where you're coming from, I think, but I really think you missed what I was getting at.
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I'm Puerto Rican, so I can give you my perspective in regards to my setting. I made deliberate choices in my setting to use gods and beings from Taino mythology. Things like the death god Maketaori and the hupia. I did that as a way to celebrate my heritage and ancestor's culture, because what little we know is rich with cool and interesting things. For example, the natives in my setting use bone piercings as markings of stature or as signs that they are married. In addition, children tend to be raised by their uncles rather than fathers. All of that is from what I learned about the ancient Taino natives. At the same time, though, I do inject my own twist to said civilizations to keep them fresh and interesting. Like, I have a native kingdom ruled by druids that worships hurricanes and harnesses their power via giant windmills. To be fair, I am a bit forced to put my own twist on it since there isn't too much known about the tribes. And also cause magic is real.
And personally, I'm not attracted to turning tropes in a manner that simply switches cultures and ethnicities. Like "this is the asian country, but everyone is black!! Woooooo!!" It feels... lazy and kind of offensive. As if the ethnicity's original culture wasn't good enough, so we replaced it with a different culture. That what it feels like to me. I mean, I get that completely transplanting real world culture into a game is also probably as lazy. But, at least you can take inspiration from real-world culture and give it proper respect as well as one's own twist.
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I can agree that the noble savage shouldn't be the only representation of an African dark-skinned people, as you say, subsaharan (muslim influenced) cultures certainly do apply as well.
At the same time, however, why divorce the concept of using Orisha or even Voodan? Is there a valid reason to deny dark-skinned peoples their heritage and culture? I can see how using that as the only sources very much limits their historical contributions. At the same time, though, I see no good reason to leave it out. I would consider doing so a disservice and misrepresentation of their past. If I were building a African styled setting, I certainly would include it (though not as the only background resource.) It just wouldn't be valid to leave it out.
I'd rather be comprehensive than selective.
I think you missed the part where I said "why stop at" and asked why it must be the "necessary starting point". At no point did I say to exclude it. Please don't put words in my mouth. Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but it does seem to have been the result.
The point that I think you're missing is that I think that we draw too much on real-world analogues in terms of "if this person has this phenotype, they must therefore have this culture" when it comes to how we portray them in a fantasy game.
I'm not talking about "depriving people of their culture" or "misrepresenting their past" - I'm asking why the standard RPG tropes of Heavy Armored Fighter On Horse With Sword And Shield And Chivalry Tally Ho Pip Pip have to seemingly only apply to white people and why we can't turn those tropes around. Give me a race of dark skinned courtly knights living in pyramidal castles. Let them race ostriches and cheetahs while holding poetry competitions to exalt their powerful thunder god and his exorbitant strength, tempered only by his blinding mercy.
Topple the damned apple cart. Make the white folks way up north the Noble Savage. Give them the primitive gods and the...
I think this does a better job at explaining your point. Though, I'm not comfortable with the idea of making an entire race a noble savage. I'd rather keep differences amongst races and ethnicities, which is what I do in my setting.
Also one can have a tribal setting without delving into the noble savage trope. People seem to think that you have to have the latter with the former.
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Odraude says it better than I do. Thank you.
At no point am I saying "Hey, let's just ignore all this stuff that happened here on Earth and pretend these real cultures don't exist or never existed."
I'm saying "Let's start here and take it PLACES, MAN. PLACES."
(Which is why I talk about Pyramidal castles and ostrich races, honestly. Who doesn't like ostrich races?)
So here in the Real World (tm, pat pend) there was a European expedition (I forget which one) which got down into the African Rift Valley and found all these castles and edifices and Enormous Stone Buildings, and realized they were laid out like a city - a huge, massive, city with roads and buildings and storehouses and all those wonderful City Things.
And they of course immediately assumed that Europeans had made it into Africa and built these things, and started talking about Lost Tribes and Biblical Mines and all that.
Turns out there had been a massive empire there, all right, but it was made up of Africans, not Europeans, who did what people usually do when you get enough of them together: They built a city. An empire, really.
And like a lot of empires, it collapsed in because it got too big too fast without enough infrastructure. Couldn't feed its people. Weather changed. Rivers changed. Other empires came knocking on its door. The people dispersed and went about their way. Similar things happened to the Mayans (with similar results and claims of European Master Race-ing thrown in).
But here's a perfect example of a Castle Building, Stone City Building, Wall Building culture, in the middle of Africa, that could serve as that strange mishmash of Nubian/Courtly cultures I'm talking about.
Granted, I went to school for nearly a decade to be a History teacher, so I know a lot of obscure facts and trivia about Africa (and I'm sorry, I'm blanking on the expedition and empire name right now, I do apologize) that makes me get all question-y when someone says "I want to do an African-based culture, but I don't want to do it LIKE THAT."
My immediate question is "Why not?" and the answer is usually "Because it wasn't THERE" - to which I respond "Well, ACTUALLY."
Read up on the Kush/Nubian Empire. Pyramids. So many Pyramids. And so MANY Gods. Not Egyptian, but just as powerful and far-reaching an empire. We just don't hear about them because Charlton Heston never did movies about them. ;)
I think this does a better job at explaining your point. Though, I'm not comfortable with the idea of making an entire race a noble savage. I'd rather keep differences amongst races and ethnicities, which is what I do in my setting.
Thanks, man. I'm having a rough day at work so I do apologize for not being my usual Very Communicative And Clear self. I hope you all can forgive me.
And yeah, I agree with you. Me, I just hate the Noble Savage trope entirely and try to eradicate it where I can.
Also one can have a tribal setting without delving into the noble savage trope. People seem to think that you have to have the latter with the former.
This, wholeheartedly.
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I think you missed the part where I said "why stop at" and asked why it must be the "necessary starting point". At no point did I say to exclude it. Please don't put words in my mouth. Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but it does seem to have been the result.
I may have misread your post, but I certainly never put words in other peoples mouths (where you're getting that I have no idea.) I didn't get the gist of your "why stop at" in its full meaning as you've just explained. Had you been more detailed in your first post, I might not have misread it as I did.
The point that I think you're missing is that I think that we draw too much on real-world analogues in terms of "if this person has this phenotype, they must therefore have this culture" when it comes to how we portray them in a fantasy game.
"We" who? As far as I know all my setting developments have no connection to anyone other than myself - building worlds is generally a single person activity. I certainly don't collaborate in my setting design. As far as I know, nobody else develops worlds the same as I do.
While I can agree that I do, in fact, use real world history and culture as reference material in the development of my worlds, I don't necessarily place my analog Arabia anywhere near my analog Africa, so a sub-saharan culture most likely doesn't exist in my world, so that issue wouldn't come up. While I do use history for reference, I wouldn't copy Earth geography verbatim in any fictional development. That assumes too much.
I'm asking why the standard RPG tropes of Heavy Armored Fighter On Horse With Sword And Shield And Chivalry Tally Ho Pip Pip have to seemingly only apply to white people and why we can't turn those tropes around.
Unlike many I almost never include a Europe analog in my games, so you're unlikely to ever see Heavy Armored Fighter on Horse with chivalry, etc. in any of my settings. There are far too many Euro-based settings, to the point that I'd never want to play in one, no matter who created the setting. So while you won't see dark-skinned knights in my worlds, you probably won't see white-skinned knights in them either.
Topple the damned apple cart. Make the white folks way up north the Noble Savage. Give them the primitive gods and the...
Generally I avoid the whole medieval period in my games, as I have far more interest in Early Dark Age, Bronze Age, Celtic Iron Age or Prehistoric settings. My Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), while certainly feudal Japan influenced is the most modern setting I've developed, but primarily to do the job right to fit my heritage, since I am half-Japanese.
Honestly Euro knights on horseback standard fantasy worlds bores me to tears.
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Gamer-Printer In that case, I apologize for the misunderstanding on my part. As I said, not the best day for me and clarity. I'll try to do better.
And reading what you've just written, you've piqued my interest. Where can I find your stuff so that I might fling money at it and pore through it?
(Which is why I talk about Pyramidal castles and ostrich races, honestly. Who doesn't like ostrich races?)
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Since my setting is more Renaissance, knights exist but the idea of chivalry and knights as you see it in a medieval since has become an anachronism that old nobles hold onto. Instead, there are armored cavalry and pike and shot infantry that command the field. Anyone clinging to knighthood is seen akin to Don Quixote. Though the idea is quite romanticized.
Also, hard to have horseback knights on tropical jungle islands.
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Gamer-Printer In that case, I apologize for the misunderstanding on my part. As I said, not the best day for me and clarity. I'll try to do better.
And reading what you've just written, you've piqued my interest. Where can I find your stuff so that I might fling money at it and pore through it?
The Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) is my only published setting, though I have many homebrews that could be published someday. Most Kaidan products in the Paizo store is located HERE. Though 2 of the settings products are elsewhere: Way of the Samurai (PFRPG) and #30 Haunts for Kaidan. The setting guides for Kaidan won't be available until sometime this fall, unfortunately.
I happen to be primarily a professional fantasy cartographer and am currently writing a series of map tutorials guide books, map sets, map icons and map tiles. You can visit my G+ community to get an idea on my progress on that. I've done many map commissions in the past, including the original hand-drawn map of the City of Kasai, for the Jade Regent AP (as well as some of the writing of the Kasai gazetteer).
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Agree with oderaude and jemstone in part, but I do not have a problem with mixing up cultures and races. You call it lazy, I call it letting the noble savage trope in through the back door. Thats just me though.
One of the giant elephants in the room with regards to fantasy has always been race. This is almost certainly because the majority of fantasy settings are modeled after medieval Europe. Of course with the increasing egalitarianism of modern society and the ever growing number of gamers from all sorts of backgrounds we've seen a lot more representation of colored people in game materials.
How do you deal with race in your games if at all?
I for one remember having a black friend who joined my gaming group. He made a human rogue who he described as being "dark skinned", to which I as the dungeon master found myself a little caught off guard. I found myself wondering "WHERE DO THE BLACK PEOPLE COME FROM IN MY WORLD? I HAD NOT PLANNED FOR THIS!" It may sound like a petty concern, but I had one human kingdom based off of England and one based off a mix of European influences with pale, sickly skin from living in a land awash in necromantic enchantment. Suddenly this one characters' very existence threw a wrench in my world/story. Did I invent a new continent where his people come from, with their own royal families, empires, etc.?
The funny thing was that at the time I felt like the issue was a hot potato and just kind of ignored it, much to the detriment of the story/world.
Good question.
Race is important in my games, and it comes up. I try to set up the context, and not make it just a rehash of modern day politics. Who your character is, racially, can certainly be brought up or an important point. Whites are not always on top, and racial mixing is kind of a big theme in my games.
To explain, in one of my settings the major expansionistic kingdom is surrounded by a lot of monsters and their civilisations. For some, like ogres and the like, they have racially bled through into the kingdom. This helps to make the races of the kingdom, but the races are also informed by the mixing with other species. Fantasy has done this a long time, half elves, half orcs, so in my game that can also matter quite a bit.
On solely human races, I put in tribes that still maintain their culture, and then go through a range of those that have assimilated or been mostly annihilated racially. Race is an important part in any fantasy setting wanting to add a bit of depth and complexity.
In Golarion for a Sargava game I ran, it was curious that the Mwangi do not worship good gods. Check out the initial info, it is all evil gods, demons and neutral gods. I get they wanted African savages in their games, but I surprised darkies worshipping evil gods came through so strongly, they are normally more pc than that. I loved it. The Mwangi are excellent enemies, especially those serving the mummy-boy theocracy.
For the Golarion game, since the players were mostly descended from white settlers, race was the most emphasised it has ever been in a game. One player took it upon himself to play an old white racist, but what was funny about that was he was actually quite weak, often naive and it certainly wasn't a positive or helpful trait.
Good times.
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Agree with oderaude and jemstone in part, but I do not have a problem with mixing up cultures and races. You call it lazy, I call it letting the noble savage trope in through the back door. Thats just me though.
See, you can easily have a culture represented by its real-world equivalent without maintaining the noble savage trope. Currently, I have a kingdom that is based on the Mali empire of Ghana, Africa. There are no noble savages in this kingdom. I have also played in a Nyambe game as a Zulu inspired character and completely avoided the noble savage trope of romanticizing tribalism, as well as degrading it as savagery. It can be hard to avoid either trope, but it is certainly doable.
Agree with oderaude and jemstone in part, but I do not have a problem with mixing up cultures and races. You call it lazy, I call it letting the noble savage trope in through the back door. Thats just me though.
You can do a lot more than just replicate the noble savage trope. By borrowing, mixing and then expanding you can create really worthwhile and complex peoples to be a part of the fantasy setting.
It can also add a bit of education into a game (like some brilliant computer games), when you inform the players through treasure, encounters or quests on the art and historical traditions you are borrowing from real world cultures. The shotel shield countering sword is originally an African weapon, this pottery looks a lot like those from the Jingnan dynasty, this halberd is just like truly ancient Chinese halberds, mid-way between a halberd and a pick.
By borrowing there is also a lot of fun to be had pulling unusual philosophies or governments into a fantasy game for you and your friends. Enter the Legalists, Taoists, Mafia rule in Sargava, Ikko hobgoblins or Otyughs that use a democratic public debate system like the ancient Greeks.
The truth is in the pudding, and whether you make it tasty while teaching the players something about other cultures.
Agree with oderaude and jemstone in part, but I do not have a problem with mixing up cultures and races. You call it lazy, I call it letting the noble savage trope in through the back door. Thats just me though.See, you can easily have a culture represented by its real-world equivalent without maintaining the noble savage trope. Currently, I have a kingdom that is based on the Mali empire of Ghana, Africa. There are no noble savages in this kingdom. I have also played in a Nyambe game as a Zulu inspired character and completely avoided the noble savage trope of romanticizing tribalism, as well as degrading it as savagery. It can be hard to avoid either trope, but it is certainly doable.
I love the Mali empire! All that gold and intellectual patronage.
Agreed.
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Agree with oderaude and jemstone in part, but I do not have a problem with mixing up cultures and races. You call it lazy, I call it letting the noble savage trope in through the back door. Thats just me though.See, you can easily have a culture represented by its real-world equivalent without maintaining the noble savage trope. Currently, I have a kingdom that is based on the Mali empire of Ghana, Africa. There are no noble savages in this kingdom. I have also played in a Nyambe game as a Zulu inspired character and completely avoided the noble savage trope of romanticizing tribalism, as well as degrading it as savagery. It can be hard to avoid either trope, but it is certainly doable.I love the Mali empire! All that gold and intellectual patronage.
Agreed.
Yeah, I was inspired by the legend of one of the empire's Mansas, Mansa Abubakr II and his Transatlantic voyage. I liked that idea and poached it, with it now being a center of religion and scholarly insight on a tropical island. Also allows me to fit in pirates inspired by Barbary corsairs :)
In fact, most of my decisions were based on adding different cultures of pirates.
Also, owning Heart of the Jungle, I distinctly remember more good aligned cities in the Mwangi Expanse than evil. While it has the city of demon apes, Bloodcove, and the city of the living god Wakena, there was also the city with the nature wizards founded by Jatembe, the city of the hidden druids, and the large trade city that at least seemed neutral.
Agree with oderaude and jemstone in part, but I do not have a problem with mixing up cultures and races. You call it lazy, I call it letting the noble savage trope in through the back door. Thats just me though.See, you can easily have a culture represented by its real-world equivalent without maintaining the noble savage trope. Currently, I have a kingdom that is based on the Mali empire of Ghana, Africa. There are no noble savages in this kingdom. I have also played in a Nyambe game as a Zulu inspired character and completely avoided the noble savage trope of romanticizing tribalism, as well as degrading it as savagery. It can be hard to avoid either trope, but it is certainly doable.I love the Mali empire! All that gold and intellectual patronage.
Agreed.
Yeah, I was inspired by the legend of one of the empire's Mansas, Mansa Abubakr II and his Transatlantic voyage. I liked that idea and poached it, with it now being a center of religion and scholarly insight on a tropical island. Also allows me to fit in pirates inspired by Barbary corsairs :)
In fact, most of my decisions were based on adding different cultures of pirates.
Pirates are an important part of cross-cultural traffic.
Also, owning Heart of the Jungle, I distinctly remember more good aligned cities in the Mwangi Expanse than evil. While it has the city of demon apes, Bloodcove, and the city of the living god Wakena, there was also the city with the nature wizards founded by Jatembe, the city of the hidden druids, and the large trade city that at least seemed neutral.
I was running it before heart of the jungle (before it was cool?) when the setting information was very lopsided and very dark.
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heavy metal subculture in Botswana
kinda tangential but I thought it was interesting.