Dark Skinned People in Fantasy

[Laurefindel]

[page jump]

Orfamay,

acknowledging that different culture exists, that different ethnicities exist, and that each cultural group has a place of origin isn't racism. That's cultural diversity and that's a good thing.

Making a biased judgment based on that is racism.

[LazarX]

As I recall Ralph Baskshi's "Wizards" had elves of color.

[Tormsskull]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

But if one of your players tries to create an aasimar from that area, that's just fine?

Nope - I wouldn't allow that either because in my made up example, the humans of the Thunder Mountains are quit xenophobic and wouldn't have accepted an aasimar in their society.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Heck, as a human I can take Racial Heritage and I can eliminate the need to breathe... and that's not a special snowflake.

Not all GMs allow all options from all books. That one sounds like a great candidate to disallow, depending on the make-up of the campaign world.

[thejeff]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I don't see any evidence that Golarion is such a weird magical place that genetics play no role. That populations of related ethnicities don't resemble each other. That children don't usually resemble their parents.

It's weirder than the real world certainly. Your green hair may be a sign of a sorcerous bloodline, even an undeveloped one. Or many other things. But it's not just, "Any combination of colors or features is possible. White blond haired parents routinely give birth to black haired black babies (or pink haired blue ones for that matter) and no one thinks twice about it."
At least not my version of Golarion. Or any one I've seen.

In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to redhaired children when there's no history of red hair in the family. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to left-handed children when there's no history of left-handedness. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to children with substantially darker or lighter skin than the rest of the family -- I'm one of those myself.

I've been around at family reunions where everyone's looking at the red-haired child in the crib and trying to remember if Great-Aunt Fran had red hair in the old pictures.

Recessive genes happen. As, for that matter, do mutations.

But because Golarion is so wierd and magical a place, the only thing that can't change without a direct reason is skin color.

Because differently colored skin isn't natural and isn't acceptable unless it comes from The Other.

And that is racist.

That's not at all what I said and you know it.

Recessive genes do happen. Mutations as well, but those really aren't a factor.
As you suggest, there was red hair somewhere back there in the family. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Green hair though, would require a bit more. :)

Substantially darker or lighter skin is one thing, particularly in a population that's been mixing phenotypes for centuries, like for example modern America. Not uncommon. A fully Nordic, blond-haired blue-eyed European baby borne in a sub-saharan African village to Bantu parents would be a wonder today, much less in the 12th century.

And that's closer to what I've thought you've been saying. It's certainly what I've been arguing against. I wouldn't even necessarily rule against it, but there would be a reason.

I've also been using differently colored skin as a proxy for all the traits that we tend to think of as race. Hair color and texture is more variable, at least in European groups. Facial features would also go along, but are harder to describe.
And lose the "The Other" nonsense. What's The Other and exotic depends on where you are. In a sufficiently cosmopolitan campaign/setting, none of this would matter. In a more insular setting, different human races would be viewed as the other, even with known non-humans around. Unknown non-humans would be even more so, of course. Saying that is not racist. Saying that the norm for humans, even in a fantasy world, is to have children of the same race as themselves and their ancestors, is not racist.

I'm not so sure about the idea of not actually having black races in the setting because normal white humans can always just have a black child if someone wants to play one. <I suspect that's about as close to your argument as your take on mine is to what I'm actually saying.>

[MMCJawa]

two issues have gotten tangled up here in the last page or so regarding diversity in other races:

Should non human races show diversity equivalent to that of humans?

Should non-human races show the same range of skin tones/ethnicity as humans?

For the first question, I would say: Yes, pending certain factors (race is nearly extinct, artificially created races, perhaps a few others). Personally, I have always had a pet peeve regarding setting that have 50 different flavor/nations/cultures of humans in a similar area, and then you have like one nation or type of elf or dwarf. Personally I don't find that very realistic. I prefer diversity in my non-human races, even if that diversity is implied rather than shown. It also makes humans less special snowflakes. I will grant you...this diversity doesn't need to reflect actual stat differences...it may just effect the flavor of the race.

For the second question, I would say no. Their fantastic races...there is no reason to assume that differences among races correspond to the same types of differences that are present between human races. So maybe Elves that inhabit dense jungles are not dark-skinned, but show a camo like skin pattern. Maybe Halflings that inhabit the arctic have a thick pelt to keep them warm. Maybe Dwarfs increase in height and weight the further you get from the equator? Get crazy with it!

[Orfamay Quest]

thejeff wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I don't see any evidence that Golarion is such a weird magical place that genetics play no role. That populations of related ethnicities don't resemble each other. That children don't usually resemble their parents.

It's weirder than the real world certainly. Your green hair may be a sign of a sorcerous bloodline, even an undeveloped one. Or many other things. But it's not just, "Any combination of colors or features is possible. White blond haired parents routinely give birth to black haired black babies (or pink haired blue ones for that matter) and no one thinks twice about it."
At least not my version of Golarion. Or any one I've seen.

In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to redhaired children when there's no history of red hair in the family. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to left-handed children when there's no history of left-handedness. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to children with substantially darker or lighter skin than the rest of the family -- I'm one of those myself.

I've been around at family reunions where everyone's looking at the red-haired child in the crib and trying to remember if Great-Aunt Fran had red hair in the old pictures.

Recessive genes happen. As, for that matter, do mutations.

But because Golarion is so wierd and magical a place, the only thing that can't change without a direct reason is skin color.

Because differently colored skin isn't natural and isn't acceptable unless it comes from The Other.

And that is racist.

That's not at all what I said and you know it.

Recessive genes do happen. Mutations as well, but those really aren't a factor.
As you suggest, there was red hair somewhere back there in the family. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Green hair though, would require a bit more. :)

In Golarion? Not a bit. "Wait a minute, wasn't Great-Aunt Fran a dryad"?

That's the point. Golarion is magical, and in magical worlds, magical things happen. Great-Aunt Fran didn't need to be red-headed, she could have been a talking teapot, or she could have been cursed by a wandering witch so that one child in every generation would have been born a thumbtack. Mum could have drunk from the spring of Isuckatcomingupwithnames, or frightened by a a black bedsheet hanging on a clothesline. The child might have been born right when the planet Apostae came into conjunction with Tralfamador, or on the holy night of the angel Ishkabibble. Or maybe the name given to the child at birth happened to sound like a long-forgotten spirit of darkness and thereby marked the child as its own.

These things happen in magical worlds. Heck, they happen in our world if you look at the legends.

[thejeff]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I don't see any evidence that Golarion is such a weird magical place that genetics play no role. That populations of related ethnicities don't resemble each other. That children don't usually resemble their parents.

It's weirder than the real world certainly. Your green hair may be a sign of a sorcerous bloodline, even an undeveloped one. Or many other things. But it's not just, "Any combination of colors or features is possible. White blond haired parents routinely give birth to black haired black babies (or pink haired blue ones for that matter) and no one thinks twice about it."
At least not my version of Golarion. Or any one I've seen.

In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to redhaired children when there's no history of red hair in the family. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to left-handed children when there's no history of left-handedness. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to children with substantially darker or lighter skin than the rest of the family -- I'm one of those myself.

I've been around at family reunions where everyone's looking at the red-haired child in the crib and trying to remember if Great-Aunt Fran had red hair in the old pictures.

Recessive genes happen. As, for that matter, do mutations.

But because Golarion is so wierd and magical a place, the only thing that can't change without a direct reason is skin color.

Because differently colored skin isn't natural and isn't acceptable unless it comes from The Other.

And that is racist.

That's not at all what I said and you know it.

Recessive genes do happen. Mutations as well, but those really aren't a factor.
As you suggest, there was red hair somewhere back there in the family. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Green hair though, would require a bit more. :)

In Golarion? Not a bit. "Wait a minute, wasn't Great-Aunt Fran a...

Yeah, all cool by me. That all falls under my original "give a reason". "Great-Aunt Fran was a dryad" is a reason. "Child marked by a spirit of darkness" is a reason.

I'd be a little leery of "marked by a spirit of darkness" giving a child classic African features and hair as well as skin coloring. Shadowy dark skin, not particularly like any real human race, would be more appropriate.

"I'm playing a stereotypical Nordic blonde with blue eyes in your Heart of the Mwangi game because I always play a white guy and it doesn't matter anyway. No, he's a local like you wanted, I just want him to look white." is a problem.

[knightnday]

It is usually something I work out ahead of time, being the sort to plan ahead in my games. As several have said, there can be "magic" reasons why you have a skin/eye/hair colour that doesn't fit with the region you are in. As always, I let people know that having glittering silver eyes that glow or floor length golden hair or purple skin will draw attention both good and bad.

That said, on one of my campaign worlds there are no "people of colour" (a term I happen to despise, much like I hate anything regarding the "Blank Word". Hate hate hate. But that's a personal peeve). None. None, nada, nill, ziltch, etc. There are reasons for it that I lay out for the players to explain what is going on, of course, dealing with the suns and so on. Other worlds have had a number of skin colours, several of which do not occur on Earth.

In any case, I'd agree that it is something that will come up and something that a Gm/designer should be prepared to address like anything else, as well as if it affects politics, religion and so on. As I recall, we worked on a back history for drow many many MANY years ago that discussed how they were altered by Lolth in colour to help hide them as well as pay tribute to her and blah blah blah.

It's another facet of world design and can bring interesting elements or just be something that you ignore. Heck, a lot of games ignore handliness, more than the most basic description and so on.

[Orfamay Quest]

thejeff wrote:

Yeah, all cool by me. That all falls under my original "give a reason". "Great-Aunt Fran was a dryad" is a reason. "Child marked by a spirit of darkness" is a reason.

Yes, but the only problem with that is that the whole reason this conversation is happening in the first place is because no one in the room actually knows of a reason, which is why they're asking stupid questions like "wasn't Great-Aunt Fran a dryad?" as though you could inherit features from your great-aunt in the first place.

In the real world, the one that isn't magical and therefore doesn't have strange things happen for no explicable reason, there's an assumption that everything has a reason behind it. That and people like to gossip at family gatherings.

In Golarion -- well, hell, in Golarion there's no reason you couldn't inherit from your great-aunt. Because it's magical.

The basic problem is that in Golarion, "a wizard did it" is literally an explanation for everything. Demand an explanation of anything, anything at all, and I can just shrug and say "a wizard did it." If you're the game master and you can't justify whatever you like as the result of a powerful and capricious magic entity, you're doing something wrong.

Which is why we get stuff like half-dragons. Black dragons can't shapeshift, so how they could crossbreed with unicorns is beyond me. But the rules are rather clear that you can put a half-dragon template on almost anything, so apparently "a wizard did it."

Unless it's a character of the wrong racial type. Because apparently wizards can do anything except violate your racial conventions.

And that, as I've said before, is pure racism on your part.

[Tormsskull]

knightnday wrote:

There are reasons for it that I lay out for the players to explain what is going on, of course, dealing with the suns and so on. Other worlds have had a number of skin colours, several of which do not occur on Earth.

And as the creator, that is your right to do so. It would then be very selfish for a player to try to create a character that does not fit into that world.

knightnday wrote:

It's another facet of world design and can bring interesting elements...

Agreed. Let the creator of the content decide.

[thejeff]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Yeah, all cool by me. That all falls under my original "give a reason". "Great-Aunt Fran was a dryad" is a reason. "Child marked by a spirit of darkness" is a reason.

Yes, but the only problem with that is that the whole reason this conversation is happening in the first place is because no one in the room actually knows of a reason, which is why they're asking stupid questions like "wasn't Great-Aunt Fran a dryad?" as though you could inherit features from your great-aunt in the first place.

In the real world, the one that isn't magical and therefore doesn't have strange things happen for no explicable reason, there's an assumption that everything has a reason behind it. That and people like to gossip at family gatherings.

In Golarion -- well, hell, in Golarion there's no reason you couldn't inherit from your great-aunt. Because it's magical.

The basic problem is that in Golarion, "a wizard did it" is literally an explanation for everything. Demand an explanation of anything, anything at all, and I can just shrug and say "a wizard did it." If you're the game master and you can't justify whatever you like as the result of a powerful and capricious magic entity, you're doing something wrong.

Which is why we get stuff like half-dragons. Black dragons can't shapeshift, so how they could crossbreed with unicorns is beyond me. But the rules are rather clear that you can put a half-dragon template on almost anything, so apparently "a wizard did it."

Unless it's a character of the wrong racial type. Because apparently wizards can do anything except violate your racial conventions.

And that, as I've said before, is pure racism on your part.

Except I've never said that. Your character doesn't have to know the reason. The player doesn't even have to know the reason. If the player doesn't have one the GM is free to come up with one of his own or disallow it if he doesn't have a good one or doesn't like what the player comes up with.

And honestly, things like "green hair because (dryad ancester/random curse) bother me less than "Looks like a member of a different real world race because (curse/magic)", unless you're particularly clever with your reasoning. "My mother was actually white, but magically disguised and hiding/spying in the Mwangi village." Look, vaguely plausible, interesting hook, cool.

Wizards/gods/whatever can certainly violate racial conventions. That's fine. But I want reasons behind it. I hate the "powerful and capricious magic entity" as an explanation for anything that doesn't make sense in the setting. Whether its races or dungeon layouts with different random monsters in each room that would happily eat each other if they could fit through the 10'x10' corridors. And your character's particular weirdness is still going to be weird. People are going to wonder about it. He's going to wonder about it, if he doesn't know the reason.

But, yeah I get it. No need to have actual black races in the setting, since capricious wizards can always make black people if any are needed. That's a hell of a lot more racist than anything I've said.

[Larkos]

About your elves are okay but black people borne to white parents aren't points, elves are freakin' aliens. Of course they're different. The game did go out of it's way to explain why they are different in a way that far beyond "from some country with dark-skinned people."

Orfamay Quest said wrote:

And that's what's racist. You can be any color you like as long as dark-skinned people only come from "vaguely 'over there.'"

Let me see.

* Elves? Fine
* Flying dragons? Great
* Genies in lamps granting wishes? No problem
* A magical rock that turns you literally into a god? Sure thing
* Dark skinned people from "here"? Whoa, that just violates verisimilitude. No way that would be believable.

If the campaign is in not!Africa where everyone is dark-skinned and I just have my white PC there without explanation would that make sense? I'm not saying that every campaign has to have white as the default and black people have to be from somewhere else. Europe can be that somewhere else too.

This isn't a black thing. A totally Chinese person in not!Europe would have some explaining to do as well. Notice how they had to explain where Feiya's (the iconic witch) parents came from because she's Japanese. Did it destroy her character? No. It was one line and it immediately ended that concern for me.

Humans are not inherently magical like dragons. Their difference in skin coloration has a backstory and fundamentally changes everything about that dragon. Humans are different'y colored because of a mutation in the real world and Golarion has no evidence that this is different in the fantasy world. Saying I'm Black/Asian/Indian/Etc. when everyone else is lily white and that's just that because of magic silly. Magic is a narrative force that allows for the wondrous but that doesn't mean there aren't rules or logic. Don't go all Joe Quesada on us.

Incidentally Drow are magically dark-skinned. "When Earthfall struck, the Darklands were shaken by tremendous tremors, strong enough to briefly wake Rovagug, the god of destruction who had been imprisoned far below during the Age of Creation. As his wakened mind reached out, it touched the cave where the elves had sequestered themselves, and mixed with the Darklands' strange radiations and the elves' own feelings of betrayal and anger. It transformed them, turning their hair white, they skin dark, and replaced the race's natural tendencies towards independence and good, with Rovagug's evil; these elves became the first generation of drow."

[Lincoln Hills]

Wow! I stop paying attention for a little while and suddenly people are accusing each other of racist slurs! And even worse, of being like Joe Quesada! For shame. For shame. ;)

[Larkos]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

Wow! I stop paying attention for a little while and suddenly people are accusing each other of racist slurs! And even worse, of being like Joe Quesada! For shame. For shame. ;)

When you say what basically amounts to "It's magic; I don't have to explain it" then I'm gonna call you who you're acting like.

[Lincoln Hills]

No, no, I understand the parallel you're implying. But still... Joe Quesada? Ew.

[Draco Bahamut]

Each of us can create his own world and populate it with any cultures you want or possible skin color you want. The problem is only the message you would pass to a possible black or other skin color real world person you call you invite to play with. They would be hurt ? You would care ? Or you would never invite a black player to your table ? This is the real problem.

[knightnday]

I'm not sure it is a problem. I've had a number of players with various skin colors at the table and haven't had a problem yet. I've had a few "where are these sort of people at" questions, and "why are these guys purple? What shade of purple? Do they like the lavender people?" questions.

I've yet to have a "why isn't <insert their real world ethnicity> in this city/land/world?" yet. I've perhaps been lucky to not run across players that were looking to be insulted, or that were able to roll with what was provided in the game.

I'm not really worried about some sort of message, myself. My hope is that anyone I'm playing with has been around enough sci-fi/fantasy to understand the hows and whys of game design, or is adult enough to ask me why X world is only populated by stark white people, or why there are no white people on Z world, and what the heck is up with the orange people on Y world.

[Draco Bahamut]

knightnday wrote:

I'm not sure it is a problem. I've had a number of players with various skin colors at the table and haven't had a problem yet. I've had a few "where are these sort of people at" questions, and "why are these guys purple? What shade of purple? Do they like the lavender people?" questions.

I've yet to have a "why isn't <insert their real world ethnicity> in this city/land/world?" yet. I've perhaps been lucky to not run across players that were looking to be insulted, or that were able to roll with what was provided in the game.

I'm not really worried about some sort of message, myself. My hope is that anyone I'm playing with has been around enough sci-fi/fantasy to understand the hows and whys of game design, or is adult enough to ask me why X world is only populated by stark white people, or why there are no white people on Z world, and what the heck is up with the orange people on Y world.

It's perfectly possible to it not being a issue. I never ever thought about playing a black character in Rokugan. But if everytime there is no place for dark-skinned humans in everyone gameworld, some lessons could be learnt from that.

[Inner Heru]

knightnday wrote:

I've yet to have a "why isn't <insert their real world ethnicity> in this city/land/world?" yet. I've perhaps been lucky to not run across players that were looking to be insulted, or that were able to roll with what was provided in the game.

Could you explain that better?

I want to make sure of your meaning because that and the last part of your post are not the same statement.

[Weirdo]

Tormsskull wrote:

They're not - they're relevant to the point I made just before that point - do we have to create every homebrew race with every possible reflection from the real world? If so, then we'll have numerous subraces for each race. This leads to a situation we see with elves - High elves, dark elves, wild elves, wood elves, fire elves, frost elves, etc, etc.

Having so many different varieties of a specific race causes those races to lose their niche in the fantasy world, IMO. You end up with humans in elf suits syndrome.

You certainly don't need to have every fantasy race reflect every human ethnicity. However, allowing major fantasy races such as elves or dwarves to have ethnicities other than european, or cultural variety in genral, would be nice.

For example, in my current campaign world there are 10 major human cultures, 4 major elven cultures (two of which are mechanically identical), 3 major dwarven cultures (mechanically identical), 2-3 goblin cultures (mechanically identical), 2 orc cultures (mechanically identical), and 1 half-orc culture distinct from orcs or humans. Halflings and gnomes adopt whatever the local human culture is. Most other races are rare and either have a single culture or adopt the culture of their parent race in the case of magical half-breeds. This doesn't take a whole lot of work. It doesn't get rid of racial niches, but it does add a little more depth to them and prevents too much racial stereotyping – for example, dwarves are still hardy crafters who value community and defense, but one of the dwarven cultures is a xenophobic theocracy, while the other is interested in exploration and alliances and trade with other races.

Orfamy Quest wrote:

I can literally create a character with green hair, because "magic," and no one cares.

...
The basic problem is that in Golarion, "a wizard did it" is literally an explanation for everything. Demand an explanation of anything, anything at all, and I can just shrug and say "a wizard did it." If you're the game master and you can't justify whatever you like as the result of a powerful and capricious magic entity, you're doing something wrong.

In many settings, humanoids being meaningfully altered by magic is rare, and unusual physical traits that result from magic will draw attention. I'm playing in a campaign world right now where one of the PCs has prematurely white hair that's implied to be a result of his oracle curse, and he's experienced some prejudice because prematurely white hair is also associated with a magical boon of the CE deity.

So if your character's skin colour results from a divine omen, magical experiment, or cosmic phenomenon, people in the world will remark on that. And it will be more of a big deal in-world than if there is some off-screen country with a different ethnic group that settled Here a long time ago and has been culturally but not entirely genetically assimilated.

And ignoring ethnic groups entirely in fantasy is unsatisfying for some people, given that it's a major part of our current experience. You could just as easily make a fantasy world where everyone worships only one great creator-god, but lots of people enjoy having multiple religions that relate with each other in different ways.

[knightnday]

Inner Heru wrote:

knightnday wrote:

I've yet to have a "why isn't <insert their real world ethnicity> in this city/land/world?" yet. I've perhaps been lucky to not run across players that were looking to be insulted, or that were able to roll with what was provided in the game.

Could you explain that better?

I want to make sure of your meaning because that and the last part of your post are not the same statement.

Sure. I've yet to have a black player or a latino player say "why doesn't this city/land represent black/latino culture the way I see it?" From some of the posts in this thread and others, it seems that there are expectations that a certain skin colour denotes a certain culture.

Perhaps the players I've been with haven't been looking to replicate an Earth-specific place. I get the feeling, and could be wrong, that there are some that are looking for a reason to be insulted that something isn't included. I haven't run across that yet. As for the last part, the players I have had that are inquisitive about race/culture in areas have asked and in many cases helped define areas in better detail. In all cases, however, we weren't looking to replicate Earth with X brown people here that act like so and Y black people here that act like so. That, to myself and my varied players, can border on being just as problematic.

[Inner Heru]

Okay I think I get you. Thank you for the clarification.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

I posted very early in the thread but can't find my two posts now.

At one point it seemed there was a discussion of using racial and cultural differences in a meaningful way in RPGs. I find that more interesting than trying to explain why someone else's comment might make them a racist.

I'm in favor of diversity within races if there's an interesting story behind it. Having diversity to be politically correct doesn't add anything to the setting, in my opinion. My observation is RPG settings tend to follow the Star Trek: The Next Generation model, where diversity and acceptance of diversity are universal with no discussion of how that was achieved. I suspect this is partly for convenience- relationships between races, kingdoms, classes, and noble houses tend to be static in RPGs because it is easier to both run and write a setting with static relationships.

There is a theory in sociology that views discrimination (racial, gender, and class-based) in terms of opportunity and a zero-sum balance. In the U.S., every job that doesn't go to a white male is one fewer job for white males. This theory (I'm not familiar with name for it) puts forward the idea that discrimination and prejudice serve to protect the interests of a group or intersection of groups (middle-class white males in the above example). In a fantasy setting you can have diversity without discrimination, which is easier to run and to play. Including discrimination and prejudice can potentially add to a setting and campaign (merchant caste members of racial subgroup X won't do business with race y or caste z), but can very easily detract from a setting (my Northlander human attacks elves and halflings on sight, it's in character no matter what the consequences are).

[pres man]

One thing I do find a bit strange, in 3.5 standard dwarves and gnomes were darker skinned (though they might not have been represented as such in a lot of official miniatures or artwork), but the same text seems to be missing from the PRD.

3.5 SRD wrote:

Hill Dwarves

Dwarves favor earth tones in their clothing and prefer simple and functional garb. The skin can be very dark, but it is always some shade of tan or brown. Hair color can be black, gray, or brown. Dwarves average 4 feet tall and weigh as much as adult humans.

3.5 SRD wrote:

Rock Gnomes

Gnomes stand 3 to 3½ feet tall and weigh 40 to 45 pounds. Their skin color ranges from dark tan to woody brown, their hair is fair, and their eyes can be any shade of blue. Gnome males prefer short, carefully trimmed beards.

[Spanky the Leprechaun]

Plus dwarf women have beards.

[Tinkergoth]

pres man wrote:

One thing I do find a bit strange, in 3.5 standard dwarves and gnomes were darker skinned (though they might not have been represented as such in a lot of official miniatures or artwork), but the same text seems to be missing from the PRD.

3.5 SRD wrote:

Hill Dwarves

Dwarves favor earth tones in their clothing and prefer simple and functional garb. The skin can be very dark, but it is always some shade of tan or brown. Hair color can be black, gray, or brown. Dwarves average 4 feet tall and weigh as much as adult humans.

3.5 SRD wrote:

Rock Gnomes

Gnomes stand 3 to 3½ feet tall and weigh 40 to 45 pounds. Their skin color ranges from dark tan to woody brown, their hair is fair, and their eyes can be any shade of blue. Gnome males prefer short, carefully trimmed beards.

Considering how much they've changed the fluff of the Gnomes, I don't think it that surprising. Also, is it just me or does that SRD quote actually refer to a specific type of gnome, the rock gnome? Same deal with the Dwarf one, it seems to be talking about hill dwarves in particular (which I assume is similar to the idea of Snowcaster or Mordant Spire elves in Pathfinder, they have their own traits).

[Weirdo]

Rock gnomes and hill dwarves are the "default" gnome and dwarf subraces in 3.5.

[The 8th Dwarf]

This is a fantasy game - why are we limiting ourselves to the standard skin colours.

If I ever make a home brew world... Dwarves skin will be the colour of the most common minerals in their location... The rusty red skinned Iron dwarves of the Pilbra where soil is so full of iron oxide that it stains everything red. The coal black dwarves of Mt Kira and the golden skinned dwarves of Ballarat.

Elves skin would take on the colour of thier environment and season Elves born in a deciduous forest will have a green brown hue over spring and summer and then change to a red orange hue in winter. Elves born at sea woul have grey, green, and blue skin tones. Elves born in arctic conditions will go from white, blue, green and purple.

[Kthulhu]

Tormsskull wrote:

You seem to place more importance on modern-day political correctness than an author's creative vision. Imagine all of the great works we would have lost if everyone did as much.

+1 for this.

[Tinkergoth]

Weirdo wrote:

Rock gnomes and hill dwarves are the "default" gnome and dwarf subraces in 3.5.

Fair enough. Been a long time since I've looked at the 3.5 books. Either way, doesn't change the fact that during the port to the Pathfinder settings, there was nothing that said Paizo had to keep the same racial traits/attributes for them. Different world, different norms.

[Tinkergoth]

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

This is a fantasy game - why are we limiting ourselves to the standard skin colours.

If I ever make a home brew world... Dwarves skin will be the colour of the most common minerals in their location... The rusty red skinned Iron dwarves of the Pilbra where soil is so full of iron oxide that it stains everything red. The coal black dwarves of Mt Kira and the golden skinned dwarves of Ballarat.

Elves skin would take on the colour of thier environment and season Elves born in a deciduous forest will have a green brown hue over spring and summer and then change to a red orange hue in winter. Elves born at sea woul have grey, green, and blue skin tones. Elves born in arctic conditions will go from white, blue, green and purple.

I like this idea. A lot. Consider it stolen.

[pres man]

Tinkergoth wrote:

Weirdo wrote:

Rock gnomes and hill dwarves are the "default" gnome and dwarf subraces in 3.5.

Fair enough. Been a long time since I've looked at the 3.5 books. Either way, doesn't change the fact that during the port to the Pathfinder settings, there was nothing that said Paizo had to keep the same racial traits/attributes for them. Different world, different norms.

True, but it does give a bit of an impression as if they were going more monochromatic feel, at least initially.

[Inner Heru]

The term politically correct is a joke at best and an insult at worst today.

Any group of people under represented in a culture that they "share and help build" who ask or demand to be included are chained to the weighted code word of "Politically Correct".

Political Correctness.
Why does it matter?
Left/Right Agenda.
Feminist.
Reverse Racism.
Real American.
Socialist.

Cop outs used to try to devalue the stance of another by taking terms and twisting them out of context and or stuffing them with lies.

This started out as such a nice thread too.
OP came here and exposed himself on a public forum in search of understanding about something he really never thought of.

When did speaking out for a persons desire to be included become politically correct? After all the advancements and the growth to turn around and say okay open up the doors, I invested in this so let me in. That is not politically correct that's just damn Correct.

Think about what has been said here.
Nobody suggested we round up anyone who does not write some diversity into their work. "Give me a Black Elf or the woman and kid gets it!" C'mon with this mess already. This speaks so loudly to me about how far we have not come. The mere statement, the idea that there is a strong desire and want for diversity in the hobby that we all support with time and money starts accusations of Racism. "Oh you desire to play characters that looks like you in public more so than in private because you want to represent and support a nearly ignore group of people in this hobby? RACIST!!"

If a "creator" wants to ignore and exclude me I can't and will not force him off his course. I'll just not support them in anyway, I'll move my friends to not support them, I'll move anyone that will listen and who cares about it to not support them. (Insert some statement about why would Black people be in a movie or book about Iceland Sometime B.C.)
You know damn well that is NOT what we are talking about and if you do not know that then this all may be well and way over your head.

Creators of limited vision should be starved when a creator of grand vision come to the table to eat. "Who decides that?" The consumer of that vision and that brings us back to the OP and the real subject of this thread.

How do we handle Dark skinned people in fantasy. He had to ask the question because for far too long and even in many cases now the foundations of the hobby (and most of our entertainment) doesn't handle Dark skinned people at all.

It always blows my mind that the mere mention of inclusion, of injecting some other elements from some other cultures into our entertainment brings this out of some people.

[Diego Rossi]

A side question: do you see this post of mine? It should be the n. 15 of this thread.
I can't see it on my PC when looking the thread, but it is present in the posts in my page, so it hasn't been deleted.
Any idea of what happened?

Diego Rossi wrote:

I think that, even if you base your world on middle aged Europe, it is not a problem if you look beyond some small corner of the world (and usually the PC go well beyond that).

Let's look at what ethnicities were present in the middle ages Europe and neighboring territories:

1) White skinned people in the northwest of Europe;
2) not so white skinned people in south Europe (Italy, Greece, Easter Roman empire);
3) Arabs in Spain;
4) Mongols in the Middle East, in some period in Russia end even further west;
5) Egyptians, Arabs and several shades of black along the southern shore of the Mediterranean sea;
6) there was trade between Europe, the Muslin nations, India and China. There were Indian and maybe Chinese traders in the Muslim nations.
7) slave trade distributed black people, Egyptians, Celts and members of every defeated army in all corners of the Roman empire and the trade continued even after the fall of the western roman empire. It wasn't limited to black people, the Teutonic Knights did raid in the neighboring pagan states capturing people to convert and sell as slaves. Arabs did sell Christian slaves, Christians did sell Arab slaves and so on;
8) Hannibal and his Carthaginian troops, included his Nubian mercenaries, did stay in Italy for 16 years and, to cite a song, "What did you think they did during 20 years of military occupation?" ;-)

So, usually, unless you are playing in a very small and insular area, there are all the reasons to have people of different ethnicity.

Add that with magic it is way easier to travel for long distances that with conventional means.

BTW, the Inner Sea area of Golarion is larger than the whole of Europe, the southern side of the Mediterranean basin and the Near Est together.
I checked the maps some time ago.

[Inner Heru]

Sorry Diego Rossi, I could have missed it but I looked for it twice and I do not see it. Odd.
Nice post by the way. Good information.

[Tormsskull]

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

This is a fantasy game - why are we limiting ourselves to the standard skin colours.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. As you say, this is a fantasy world, go crazy. The argument at this point seems to be is it racist to restrict certain races to certain types. Must there be all skin tones/cultural representations for elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes. If there is not, does that make the designer racist? If the GM says "no" to a gnome that resembles an Asian person in the real world, is that racist?

Inner Heru wrote:

Nobody suggested we round up anyone who does not write some diversity into their work.

No, but there has been accusations of racism for suggesting that a black/brown child born to white parents would need to be explained.

Inner Heru wrote:

"Oh you desire to play characters that looks like you in public more so than in private because you want to represent and support a nearly ignore group of people in this hobby? RACIST!!"

If your only tool is a hammer everyone's points start to look like nails. I know its easier to just respond on what we think someone is saying, but that doesn't really add to the conversation.

Inner Heru wrote:

If a "creator" wants to ignore and exclude me I can't and will not force him off his course. I'll just not support them in anyway, I'll move my friends to not support them, I'll move anyone that will listen and who cares about it to not support them.

You have the right idea. Authors and designers will succeed or not succeed based on what consumers choose to purchase. I know if we listened to some of these arguments about being PC and being moral and so forth that there would be a lot of books, shows, and movies that never would have seen the light of day (HBO comes to mind.) Luckily that is not the case.

[thejeff]

Tormsskull wrote:

Inner Heru wrote:

"Oh you desire to play characters that looks like you in public more so than in private because you want to represent and support a nearly ignore group of people in this hobby? RACIST!!"

If your only tool is a hammer everyone's points start to look like nails. I know its easier to just respond on what we think someone is saying, but that doesn't really add to the conversation.

Someone did say almost exactly that. <looks back> OTOH, it was Andrew R.

[Tormsskull]

thejeff wrote:

Someone did say almost exactly that. <looks back> OTOH, it was Andrew R.

Sure, but when you review Inner Heru's post, specifically the use of Politically Correct and creator in quotes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who the post is in response to.

[thejeff]

Tormsskull wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Someone did say almost exactly that. <looks back> OTOH, it was Andrew R.

Sure, but when you review Inner Heru's post, specifically the use of Politically Correct and creator in quotes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who the post is in response to.

I read it as a more general response to the thread in general. That quoted line was definitely in response to a particular accusation thrown at Inner Heru.

Did you take the whole post as directed at one person?

[ShinHakkaider]

Inner Heru wrote:

A BUNCH OF STUFF I AGREE WITH..

You made a lot of good points here. But I find that the problem isnt really with the creators of the content.

It's the consumers.

They want to relate to characters that look and are similar to themselves in someway. and are alienated by the "other". ESPECIALLY in more visual mediums like film and comics.

Still I think that the paizo boards is one of the better places to have this discussion. You couldn't really do this on other RPG boards without a complete meltdown. Or even better a bunch of white guys/gals insisting that racism isn't a problem and that the only people who are racist are the people who notice racism. Imagine for a minute if some one said that the only women who noticed sexual harassment and rape wanted to be sexually harassed and raped?

Yeah that's the level of discourse you'd get on other forums. At least here we get a semi-civil discussion with people who are for the most part well intentioned but with slightly differing views.

[thejeff]

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Inner Heru wrote:

A BUNCH OF STUFF I AGREE WITH..

You made a lot of good points here. But I find that the problem isnt really with the creators of the content.

It's the consumers.

They want to relate to characters that look and are similar to themselves in someway. and are alienated by the "other". ESPECIALLY in more visual mediums like film and comics.

Still I think that the paizo boards is one of the better places to have this discussion. You couldn't really do this on other RPG boards without a complete meltdown. Or even better a bunch of white guys/gals insisting that racism isn't a problem and that the only people who are racist are the people who notice racism. Imagine for a minute if some one said that the only women who noticed sexual harassment and rape wanted to be sexually harassed and raped?

Yeah that's the level of discourse you'd get on other forums. At least here we get a semi-civil discussion with people who are for the most part well intentioned but with slightly differing views.

I definitely agree that these boards are pretty good for this sort of discussion, though I can't really speak for other gaming boards. Partly due to the moderation, partly, I suspect, due to Paizo's general inclusive attitude.

I'm not sure the problem is as much with the consumers, as with perceptions of what consumers want. And not necessarily by actual creators, but by risk-averse lowest common denominator focused publishers/studios and other gatekeepers. They often seem to lag behind the actual public. Any failure with a minority lead gets blamed on that and thus the perception is confirmed when the truth is there are plenty of failures with white male leads too. Somehow that never means people don't want white male leads.

[pres man]

Requesting more diversity is good. Explaining why it is in everyone's interest to do so, even better. Threatening to start boycotts if someone doesn't agree to your request changes it into a demand, and that is bad. It is better to support those companies that produce products you agree with than it is to attack/shame those that don't.

[Larkos]

thejeff wrote:

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Inner Heru wrote:

A BUNCH OF STUFF I AGREE WITH..

You made a lot of good points here. But I find that the problem isnt really with the creators of the content.

It's the consumers.

They want to relate to characters that look and are similar to themselves in someway. and are alienated by the "other". ESPECIALLY in more visual mediums like film and comics.

Still I think that the paizo boards is one of the better places to have this discussion. You couldn't really do this on other RPG boards without a complete meltdown. Or even better a bunch of white guys/gals insisting that racism isn't a problem and that the only people who are racist are the people who notice racism. Imagine for a minute if some one said that the only women who noticed sexual harassment and rape wanted to be sexually harassed and raped?

Yeah that's the level of discourse you'd get on other forums. At least here we get a semi-civil discussion with people who are for the most part well intentioned but with slightly differing views.

I definitely agree that these boards are pretty good for this sort of discussion, though I can't really speak for other gaming boards. Partly due to the moderation, partly, I suspect, due to Paizo's general inclusive attitude.

I'm not sure the problem is as much with the consumers, as with perceptions of what consumers want. And not necessarily by actual creators, but by risk-averse lowest common denominator focused publishers/studios and other gatekeepers. They often seem to lag behind the actual public. Any failure with a minority lead gets blamed on that and thus the perception is confirmed when the truth is there are plenty of failures with white male leads too. Somehow that never means people don't want white male leads.

You are absolutely right about publishers having the biggest slice of blame but there's plenty to go around.

It's useless to say it's the consumers' fault and not the creators' fault because the creators were once consumers themselves. I've heard stories about how non-white writers grew up reading about white protagonists and, when they starting writing, they made their protagonists white because they didn't know any better. They just assumed that it was the way things were without really thinking about it.

I still put more blame on the publishers because they not only tacitly endorse this but also block anyone who does try to change the trend. If no one puts out fantasy with non-white protagonists then how are the tastes of consumers supposed to change?

I love Paizo's inclusiveness because I want people to think more about why other fantasy products are all white. Diego Rossi above showed only some of the very good reasons why there should be dark-skinned people all over the place in your supposedly medieval-inspired world.

Paizo has done it and it made Golarion bigger. It even benefits white players. I would love to explore Quadira and Mwangi because I would love to know what it's like to play the stranger in a strange land without being a g+%@%!n imperialist.

[Tormsskull]

ShinHakkaider wrote:

You made a lot of good points here. But I find that the problem isnt really with the creators of the content.

It's the consumers.

So, to clarify, the problem we're speaking of is the lack of diversity in RPG materials. And that problem exists because the people that purchase the materials don't want to buy products with materials that feature characters that do not look like them.

Did I correctly understand this part?

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Yeah that's the level of discourse you'd get on other forums. At least here we get a semi-civil discussion with people who are for the most part well intentioned but with slightly differing views.

Paizo is definitely more open and accepting of various viewpoints. In my experience on these forums (and others,) most people talk past one another rather than trying to actually communicate and learn from one another.

Most people have certain issues that as soon as they come up they get emotional and stop thinking logically. Rather than actually reading what the other person is saying, they infer things based on certain keywords. They then respond with an emotionally-charged post blaming the people that used their trigger words.

Then the other people are confused, get defensive, and respond with an emotionally-charged post. Eventually no one is actually talking about the content of the posts, they're talking about all of their life experiences that they feel validate their point of view.

As such, nothing really gets resolved.

[Tormsskull]

Larkos wrote:

Paizo has done it and it made Golarion bigger. It even benefits white players. I would love to explore Quadira and Mwangi because I would love to know what it's like to play the stranger in a strange land without being a g!+#%+n imperialist.

Do most people only ever play characters that match what they look like in real life? I'm not super familiar with Golarion, but why couldn't you explore Quadira or Mwangi as a native of those areas?

[thejeff]

Tormsskull wrote:

Larkos wrote:

Paizo has done it and it made Golarion bigger. It even benefits white players. I would love to explore Quadira and Mwangi because I would love to know what it's like to play the stranger in a strange land without being a g!+#%+n imperialist.

Do most people only ever play characters that match what they look like in real life? I'm not super familiar with Golarion, but why couldn't you explore Quadira or Mwangi as a native of those areas?

I suspect that most people tend to play characters that match what they look like in real life. Or fantastic versions thereof. "Only ever" would be too strong.

You could certainly explore Quadira or Mwangi as a native. That's one thing that's very nice about Paizo. Not only can you, but in their published material they often assume you will. That's where the diversity of the iconics and published art helps.

[thejeff]

Tormsskull wrote:

ShinHakkaider wrote:

You made a lot of good points here. But I find that the problem isnt really with the creators of the content.

It's the consumers.

So, to clarify, the problem we're speaking of is the lack of diversity in RPG materials. And that problem exists because the people that purchase the materials don't want to buy products with materials that feature characters that do not look like them.

Paizo is actually a good example of what I said before in response to this. They've been more diverse than many previous RPGs, in terms of gender, race and especially LGTBQ presence and that doesn't seem to have driven customers away.

I've seen various posts from freelancers around here being surprised at what they could put in and were even encouraged to put in. Ideas and characters they wouldn't previously have even bothered proposing for fear of being shot down and losing work.

There is the risk of going past what the customers will accept, but I think that risk, at least in RPGs, is less than what many companies think.

[Larkos]

thejeff wrote:

Tormsskull wrote:

Larkos wrote:

Paizo has done it and it made Golarion bigger. It even benefits white players. I would love to explore Quadira and Mwangi because I would love to know what it's like to play the stranger in a strange land without being a g!+#%+n imperialist.

Do most people only ever play characters that match what they look like in real life? I'm not super familiar with Golarion, but why couldn't you explore Quadira or Mwangi as a native of those areas?

I suspect that most people tend to play characters that match what they look like in real life. Or fantastic versions thereof. "Only ever" would be too strong.

You could certainly explore Quadira or Mwangi as a native. That's one thing that's very nice about Paizo. Not only can you, but in their published material they often assume you will. That's where the diversity of the iconics and published art helps.

thejeff is right in that I usually do play characters at least a little like me. I certainly could explore Quadira (think like the Middle East at the time of the Ottoman Empire) or Mwangi (basically Africa) as a native but I don't know what it's like to be African or Middle Eastern today or even back then really. I get a little uncomfortable playing someone who is completely unlike me. Though my point above really was that I like the Stranger in a Strange Land archetype and I would like to play it. I don't really know what that's like because I'm straight, white, and a man and the few times I've been out of my home country has been to majority-white nations in Europe.

[Tormsskull]

Larkos wrote:

thejeff is right in that I usually do play characters at least a little like me. I certainly could explore Quadira (think like the Middle East at the time of the Ottoman Empire) or Mwangi (basically Africa) as a native but I don't know what it's like to be African or Middle Eastern today or even back then really.

Interesting. I'm usually the GM, and I have GMed campaigns that take place in a variety of settings. From campaigns similar to ancient Egypt and one set in a vaguely middle-eastern world. In my own campaign world I have a pseudo-feudal Japan area, a pseudo-Roman area, etc.

I am definitely not an expert on Japan or the Rome that I based those areas off of (aside from reading things and playing games set in a similar context.) That has never stopped me from creating content based on those areas.

As as player, it never occurred to me not to play a character from pseudo-Africa or pseudo-Persia even though I've never been there myself. You just use your imagination and come up with a character that makes sense.

[Larkos]

Tormsskull wrote:

Larkos wrote:

thejeff is right in that I usually do play characters at least a little like me. I certainly could explore Quadira (think like the Middle East at the time of the Ottoman Empire) or Mwangi (basically Africa) as a native but I don't know what it's like to be African or Middle Eastern today or even back then really.

Interesting. I'm usually the GM, and I have GMed campaigns that take place in a variety of settings. From campaigns similar to ancient Egypt and one set in a vaguely middle-eastern world. In my own campaign world I have a pseudo-feudal Japan area, a pseudo-Roman area, etc.

I am definitely not an expert on Japan or the Rome that I based those areas off of (aside from reading things and playing games set in a similar context.) That has never stopped me from creating content based on those areas.

As as player, it never occurred to me not to play a character from pseudo-Africa or pseudo-Persia even though I've never been there myself. You just use your imagination and come up with a character that makes sense.

And more power to you. I'm not a GM really but when I have tried I usually go for nations I know better like Ireland and Germany because I have extensively studied their history. My knowledge of pre-colonial Africa is very limited and that is a failing on my part.

I just get nervous about stereotyping when playing the unfamiliar. I have enough of an idea of Rome to play an ancient Roman. My knowledge of Pre-Modern Arabia owes more to Aladdin than actual history.