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Light Skin Genes Evolved More Recently Than Previously Thought, DNA Study Shows
"The findings, which were detailed today (Jan. 26) in the journal Nature, also hint that light skin evolved not to adjust to the lower-light conditions in Europe compared with Africa, but instead to the new diet that emerged after the agricultural revolution, said study co-author Carles Lalueza-Fox, a paleogenomics researcher at Pompeu Fabra University in Spain."
Here's something that I have been wondering. How do you deal with the race issue when playing games like Call of Cthulhu, set in the USA in the 20s and 30s?
Unless I'm playing with people who are friends and I'm comfortable with I dont play those games. For me it's as simple as that.
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I think it is up to each GM/world-builder to build whatever world they want. If they want a world where there is only one race of humans, and all humans are white/black/tan/pale/whatever, then that is their prerogative.
As far as a company's standpoint, its important to embrace diversity and represent as many real-life analogues as possible. Its good business sense and expanding the hobby is beneficial to the gamer community.
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Alexander Dumas, writer of the Three Musketeers, was mixed race (his greatmother was black). I didn't even know that until reading about famous mixed race people. This made me wonder how much i knew about non-white writers and hero figures in fiction.
In Golarion, all my human characters are mixed race (almost all are at least half-Varisian, until Arcadians appear in print). I find strange pure-race people, but this must be a brazilian-thing.
I am very grateful for Seelah, Sanji, Kyra and the others, but all Golarion good deities and human looking celestial figure are white looking (ok, Sarenrae don't appear to be white and Irori don't is but have light skin). Where are the Mwangi or really dark-skinned gods ?
Alexander Dumas, writer of the Three Musketeers, was mixed race (his greatmother was black). I didn't even know that until reading about famous mixed race people. This made me wonder how much i knew about non-white writers and hero figures in fiction.
The wiki page has a less than politically correct but hilarious retort on the subject
In Golarion, all my human characters are mixed race (almost all are at least half-Varisian, until Arcadians appear in print). I find strange pure-race people, but this must be a brazilian-thing.
eyup. The segregation is still pretty strong in the US.
I am very grateful for Seelah, Sanji, Kyra and the others, but all Golarion good deities and human looking celestial figure are white looking (ok, Sarenrae don't appear to be white and Irori don't is but have light skin). Where are the Mwangi or really dark-skinned gods ?
Everyone makes gods in their own image*, even when they're real. Unless your god ascended from being a mortal, the god looks like whatever they want to look like. This has been an ingame thing on more than a few occasions, with garundi showing gods as garundi and ratfolk showing their gods as ratfolk.
Also the white people are closer to the ez pass to godhood of the starstone.
* I suppose this could also go for game designers.
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Everyone makes gods in their own image*, even when they're real. Unless your god ascended from being a mortal, the god looks like whatever they want to look like. This has been an ingame thing on more than a few occasions, with garundi showing gods as garundi and ratfolk showing their gods as ratfolk.Also the white people are closer to the ez pass to godhood of the starstone.
* I suppose this could also go for game designers.
Yeah yeah, but illustrations make a great deal about it. We already had a not-Africa themed adventure path and now we are going throught another, comparing Serpent's Skull to Mummy's Mask shows a lot of improvment, and the Egiptian pantheon helped a little. But i hope things will improve someday. This maybe would not be as important in the north hemisphere. But more African themed cultural symbols would be a huge deal selling the setting in Brazil.
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I had one guy, who played a.....long pause.....African (American) except not African or American because: World of Greyhawk.
So, he was from Hepmonaland; no problem.
Thinking back, I don't know what race he'd be IRL because it's a pbp, and who knows what anybody really is anyway on the internet?
I remember in 8th grade I played with an African American kid; I says "okay, what race do you wanna be?"
He says, "Black! Duuuh...."
Everybody busts out laughing;
So I says, "no, like human, or elf or dwarf."
So he was a black dude too; I didn't really flesh out campaigns back then so I don't know where he came from.
I used to base my fighters off of Sam L Jackson for a while. I did a wizard one time based on Dolemite, so he would make dirty rhymes up for all his spells.
I am very grateful for Seelah, Sanji, Kyra and the others, but all Golarion good deities and human looking celestial figure are white looking (ok, Sarenrae don't appear to be white and Irori don't is but have light skin). Where are the Mwangi or really dark-skinned gods ?
Gozreh is Mwangi if I recall correctly. The Inner Sea World Guide gave races to all the gods. I only remember Gorum being Ulfen and it really upsetting me because I wanted him to be a half-orc.
As for the point of people making gods in their own image, that wouldn't fly in-universe when Gods and Goddesses are well-known and many used to be mortal.
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Even deities that were once mortal might have their ethnicity changed in depictions - IRL, people commonly draw Jesus as being caucasian or black african despite the fact that He was ethnically neither. An active Golarion deity might bother to correct this, but they might not be picky about their true appearance and actually prefer to appear to worshippers in a more familiar form. And then there are plenty of deities that weren't mortal and might not have an ethnicity to be attached to at all.
Light Skin Genes Evolved More Recently Than Previously Thought, DNA Study Shows
"The findings, which were detailed today (Jan. 26) in the journal Nature, also hint that light skin evolved not to adjust to the lower-light conditions in Europe compared with Africa, but instead to the new diet that emerged after the agricultural revolution, said study co-author Carles Lalueza-Fox, a paleogenomics researcher at Pompeu Fabra University in Spain."
Cool, I've been wondering why the Nordic diet (with vit D rich fish oils) didn't blunt the development of lighter skin in those areas, and according to that article it might have slowed it down.
First: Everyone has the same amount of melanin. It is just distributed differently.
Do you have a source for that? According to this source, redistribution of melanin is responsible for tanning, but Black people do have more total skin melanin than White people.
However, another thing to be aware of is that the African population stands for the absolute highest degree of genetic variability in the human species. The groups that left Africa were homogenous, and their descendants still are.
Yup. Though that one's less likely to hold true in non-earth worlds than adaptive reasons for certain skin colours.
If it were just vitamin d and melanin production I wouldnt have dark skin where mosquitos have bit me during childhood.
That's a type of scarring, and it's not really what people are thinking of when they talk about "dark skin." I'm also not sure what that has to do with "mosquito transfer of certain tropical viruses over thousands of generations."
That might be interesting idea. Saw an experiment with ants. Their abdomens are translucent so depending on food dyes in their drink, they can be any colour.
Makes sense. I'm not sure how pigments get into flamingo feathers, but I know people can go a little yellow-orange if they eat lots of carrots or other sources of vitamin A. Not sure what would have to happen to humanoids biologically to show more dramatic colour changes, but it's fun to speculate.
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I'm black.
As an infant, I expressed a great love of carrots. It was the only baby food I liked.
Literally.
I looked strange for a time and frightened my mother, who thought there was something wrong with me.
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My daughter had an orange nose from baby food carrots for her first couple years.
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I'd hazard most people who want to read good stories don't wonder what color the skin the author is. I don't care, I only want a good tale.I'd add that I think you are right on the first point. Most don't wonder, they assume they are white. It's a safe assumption too because it's what we have been told and shown from cartoon to HIStory.
On your second point at times I envy that freedom.
I'd doubt anyone know the race of e author when they pick up the book, unless its a more well known sci-fi or fantasy author- for me say david drake.
What do you do? You pick up the book and read the back. if it tickles your fancy, you buy it. If not, you put it back and try the next one. Most people on the board don't go "oh its a black/white/female author, not buying the cool story."
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Carmachu: Really? You don't see any relevance from this?:
I can’t tell you how many times I was told, with great vehemence and hostility, that there was no chance of me having a career in SFF — by other people of color. Yeine, the protagonist of THE HUNDRED THOUSAND KINGDOMS, was almost a white man because I listened to some of what these people were saying. (Imagine if I’d listened to all of it.)
No actually, I don't. Listening to anyone pulling you down is foolish. If the story of yeine is good, I'll read it, whether he or she is white, black or whatever. Letting other people dictate what you can do is HIS problem, not mine.
Most people want to be entertained. If you can do that people will buy it.
Carmachu: Really? You don't see any relevance from this?:
I can’t tell you how many times I was told, with great vehemence and hostility, that there was no chance of me having a career in SFF — by other people of color. Yeine, the protagonist of THE HUNDRED THOUSAND KINGDOMS, was almost a white man because I listened to some of what these people were saying. (Imagine if I’d listened to all of it.)No actually, I don't. Listening to anyone pulling you down is foolish. If the story of yeine is good, I'll read it, whether he or she is white, black or whatever. Letting other people dictate what you can do is HIS problem, not mine.
Most people want to be entertained. If you can do that people will buy it.
People do want to be entertained. Youre right on that accord.
But the people consuming the entertainment want to be able to associate with the story AND the characters. Alot of the time if the character is an "other" especially of non-caucasian or non-asian ethnicity people find it hard to connect with them.
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Except when those other people dictating what he can do are the publishers who keep his books from getting to you in the first place, because "black people don't write SF" or "people don't want to read about black heroes" or whatever other nonsense.
EXCEPT its not the publIShers AS PER YOUR EXAMPLE. It was other people of color. SO try again, or get a better quote:
I can’t tell you how many times I was told, with great vehemence and hostility, that there was no chance of me having a career in SFF — by other people of color. Yeine, the protagonist of THE HUNDRED THOUSAND KINGDOMS, was almost a white man because I listened to some of what these people were saying.]/quote]
He didn't say publisher at all in that example.
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Alexander Dumas, writer of the Three Musketeers, was mixed race (his greatmother was black). I didn't even know that until reading about famous mixed race people. This made me wonder how much i knew about non-white writers and hero figures in fiction.
In Golarion, all my human characters are mixed race (almost all are at least half-Varisian, until Arcadians appear in print). I find strange pure-race people, but this must be a brazilian-thing.
I am very grateful for Seelah, Sanji, Kyra and the others, but all Golarion good deities and human looking celestial figure are white looking (ok, Sarenrae don't appear to be white and Irori don't is but have light skin). Where are the Mwangi or really dark-skinned gods ?
Nethys is Garundi, if that helps. Not sure if it does, however.
Yeah he is supposed to be but I have only seen one image of him as a Garundi in all the books I've seen. It was an amazing pic of him too!
I was kind of hoping the God book would show more of him like that but I "think" it can be explained away by the fact that it was Gods of The Inner Sea and I feel Osirion is not really treated as part of the region so the Last of the Mohicans treatment by his worshipers there makes a sideways sense?
Light Skin Genes Evolved More Recently Than Previously Thought, DNA Study Shows
"The findings, which were detailed today (Jan. 26) in the journal Nature, also hint that light skin evolved not to adjust to the lower-light conditions in Europe compared with Africa, but instead to the new diet that emerged after the agricultural revolution, said study co-author Carles Lalueza-Fox, a paleogenomics researcher at Pompeu Fabra University in Spain."
Cool, I've been wondering why the Nordic diet (with vit D rich fish oils) didn't blunt the development of lighter skin in those areas, and according to that article it might have slowed it down.
First: Everyone has the same amount of melanin. It is just distributed differently.Do you have a source for that? According to this source, redistribution of melanin is responsible for tanning, but Black people do have more total skin melanin than White people.
However, another thing to be aware of is that the African population stands for the absolute highest degree of genetic variability in the human species. The groups that left Africa were...
I would've thought the neanderthals were light skinned, but what do I know?
On the point of Nethys if you take his image on page 101 of Gods of the Inner Sea and zoom in really really close you can see that the artist did attempt to give him facial feature of the people of his region. (Not a joke or a slight. With his hair and his inhuman colors you have to zoom in damn close to see his face)
That hair though heh. He uses a lot of product.
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Personally, the game hasn't been "Medieval Europe" by default for me for a long long time. There is so much more to choose from, whether it's pulling from other real world cultures or coming up with something entirely fantastic.
And even when a game is primarily based in medieval European aesthetics, it's by no means bound to common (mis)perceptions of real world demographics. So Not!Valdemar might be ruled by Not!Idris Elba and nearby Not!Hyrule might be ruled by Not!Gong Li while Not!Camelot is run by Not!Wes Studi.
Also, we need a LOT more dark-skinned/non-Caucasian-based elves and dwarves in fantasy.
Here's something that I have been wondering. How do you deal with the race issue when playing games like Call of Cthulhu, set in the USA in the 20s and 30s?Unless I'm playing with people who are friends and I'm comfortable with I dont play those games. For me it's as simple as that.
Considering how often I've seen and heard of verisimillimsislismislitude given as an excuse for horrid behavior at the table, I can't really argue with that approach.
Also, we need a LOT more dark-skinned/non-Caucasian-based elves and dwarves in fantasy.
Kinda reminds me of my player's reactions to the picture of Tsuto form the AE version of RotRl.
"That's a very Asian elf."
As for the OP/topic. I'm not sure I understand the problem, my homebrews have always had a full range of skin color and I love playing mixed-race/mixed-ethnicity characters.
Play what makes you comfortable, I will not block or complain about it in any of my games.
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I'm black.
As an infant, I expressed a great love of carrots. It was the only baby food I liked.
Literally.
I looked strange for a time and frightened my mother, who thought there was something wrong with me.
Most mothers are concerned by children who look like giant carrots. Did she cut the green leafy bits off?
Hey it happens, sometimes race becomes an issue... it might become an issue in my Skull and Shackles campaign which could get very fun.
Also, we need a LOT more dark-skinned/non-Caucasian-based elves and dwarves in fantasy.
I certainly hope that doesn't become a standard practice. If we create a new homebrew race, must we make sure that all possible skin colors in the real world are reflected in our fictional race? Don't get me started on all the ridiculous versions of elves that have been created so far.
Yeah. There's no reason fantasy races should be anything but white.
Your posts have become so predictable.
Also, we need a LOT more dark-skinned/non-Caucasian-based elves and dwarves in fantasy.I certainly hope that doesn't become a standard practice. If we create a new homebrew race, must we make sure that all possible skin colors in the real world are reflected in our fictional race? Don't get me started on all the ridiculous versions of elves that have been created so far.
I'll bite: How are all the ridiculous versions of elves that have been created so far relevant to a discussion of including persons of color in your game world? Surely you don't think that the sun folk (dark-skinned desert dwelling elves) are inherently more ridiculous that the wolfriders (pale skinned forest dwelling elves) from Elfquest; I mean, they're all comic books elves. IMO, the ridiculous versions of elves are usually mechanically different, whereas skin tone has no mechanical effect that I've seen.
I will say that every single racial description of humans I've seen in any RPG stresses their variety and adaptability, so I feel more comfortable saying all elves look like elves than I do saying all humans look like white people. But then, my homebrew campaign milieu takes a lot from Traveller's Third Imperium, so the three human ethnicities are solomani, vilani and zhodani rather than african, asian and european.
I admit that I'm confused about why we're only talking about skin color.
The OP started by asking where dark skinned people came from. Why do they have to come "from" anywhere? I've never heard anyone ask where left-handed people come from, or where people allergic to mushrooms come from, or where people with curly hair come from, or where people who can roll their tongue, or people with type B blood, or any of a myriad of other genetic traits.
But as soon as we talk about variance in skin color, now that needs to have a region and culture to support it.
That, to me, is the ultimate in racism. Dark-skinned people can't simply be people with dark skin. They can't be from around here; they have to be The Other from Ultima Thule.
If I say that my half-elf ranger is left-handed, people will shrug. If I say he has dark eyes and a hooded brow, that's fine. If I say he doesn't eat strawberries because he comes down with a rash, but he loves seafood, that's good characterization. But if I say his skin and hair are pale -- or are dark -- all of a sudden, those must come with cultural baggage?
I'll bite: How are all the ridiculous versions of elves that have been created so far relevant to a discussion of including persons of color in your game world?
They're not - they're relevant to the point I made just before that point - do we have to create every homebrew race with every possible reflection from the real world? If so, then we'll have numerous subraces for each race. This leads to a situation we see with elves - High elves, dark elves, wild elves, wood elves, fire elves, frost elves, etc, etc.
Having so many different varieties of a specific race causes those races to lose their niche in the fantasy world, IMO. You end up with humans in elf suits syndrome.
Surely you don't think that the sun folk (dark-skinned desert dwelling elves) are inherently more ridiculous that the wolfriders (pale skinned forest dwelling elves) from Elfquest; I mean, they're all comic books elves.
I'm not familiar with those types of elves. I was responding to a poster who advocated that there should be more types of non-white non-Caucasian elves & dwarves in Pathfinder. Why is this necessary? Humans are usually cast as diverse and variable in most RPG worlds. Representing all real life cultures/ethnicity in humans makes sense.
But for fictional, fantasy races, do we have to reflect all real world cultures? Do we really need elves that look Asian, and elves that look African and elves that look Persian, etc? I would much prefer that the elves of the fantasy world were one type, white, black, brown, yellow, whatever, then to have them be just like humans.
Well, I tend to get snarky in these discussions. It's a defense mechanism against posting rants.
Yes, but rather than trying to understand the post, you seem to reply on a trigger finger with a set response. Not sure how that helps the discussion rather than going in circles again and again.
Nor do I think every race (homebrew or published, though published races need to take more care) needs to reflect all possible skin tones. I would however rather that all the ones that do reflect real world skin colors didn't default to white.
So we probably agree more than we disagree. I'd have no problem with new races being black by default or olive by default or coffee by default. Or for specific campaigns, make all elves or dwarves one of these other skin tones.
I admit that I'm confused about why we're only talking about skin color.
The OP started by asking where dark skinned people came from. Why do they have to come "from" anywhere? I've never heard anyone ask where left-handed people come from, or where people allergic to mushrooms come from, or where people with curly hair come from, or where people who can roll their tongue, or people with type B blood, or any of a myriad of other genetic traits.
But as soon as we talk about variance in skin color, now that needs to have a region and culture to support it.
That, to me, is the ultimate in racism. Dark-skinned people can't simply be people with dark skin. They can't be from around here; they have to be The Other from Ultima Thule.
If I say that my half-elf ranger is left-handed, people will shrug. If I say he has dark eyes and a hooded brow, that's fine. If I say he doesn't eat strawberries because he comes down with a rash, but he loves seafood, that's good characterization. But if I say his skin and hair are pale -- or are dark -- all of a sudden, those must come with cultural baggage?
It's not racism when the origins of different skin colors are in different places. A black person can be from America and his family can be from there and none of them have left the country in their whole lives but, as you go farther back into the family tree, someone eventually came from Africa. This doesn't mean they are any less American than my family who has only been American for four generations before coming over from Europe.
Also, as mentioned above, different skin colors came into being because of different geography. Everyone started out black and different skin colors emerged as a result of moving out of Africa. How and why are still unclear as also mentioned before. Left-handedness is something that does pop up everywhere unaffected by geography.
Then there's the fact that almost everyone bases their fictional country on a real one. Just as Taldor is the Byzantine Empire, a homebrewed country might be Arthurian Britain. Though there were black and brown in medieval Europe, they came over from a country that they made the majority of. Othello may be Venetian but his ancestry is traced to the Almoravid Empire.
So basically, they can be from around here without being an other but somewhere in the family tree they came from somewhere else. You don't have to make it an issue or write up a country for it. As long as such a country exists vaguely "over there."
Your black half-elf can be an outsider who grew up in Africa-equivalent and carry that cultural baggage. Or your black half-elf can be raised by the elves and carry the cultural baggage of the elves. Or he can be raised in the starting nation alongside any white PCs and have their cultural baggage. You can't really escape the baggage of where you were raised, so choose wherever your character was raised and roleplay it.
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I'll bite: How are all the ridiculous versions of elves that have been created so far relevant to a discussion of including persons of color in your game world?They're not - they're relevant to the point I made just before that point - do we have to create every homebrew race with every possible reflection from the real world? If so, then we'll have numerous subraces for each race. This leads to a situation we see with elves - High elves, dark elves, wild elves, wood elves, fire elves, frost elves, etc, etc.
Having so many different varieties of a specific race causes those races to lose their niche in the fantasy world, IMO. You end up with humans in elf suits syndrome.
Surely you don't think that the sun folk (dark-skinned desert dwelling elves) are inherently more ridiculous that the wolfriders (pale skinned forest dwelling elves) from Elfquest; I mean, they're all comic books elves.I'm not familiar with those types of elves. I was responding to a poster who advocated that there should be more types of non-white non-Caucasian elves & dwarves in Pathfinder. Why is this necessary? Humans are usually cast as diverse and variable in most RPG worlds. Representing all real life cultures/ethnicity in humans makes sense.
But for fictional, fantasy races, do we have to reflect all real world cultures? Do we really need elves that look Asian, and elves that look African and elves that look Persian, etc? I would much prefer that the elves of the fantasy world were one type, white, black, brown, yellow, whatever, then to have them be just like humans.
Well, Mikaze said "in fantasy," not "in Pathfinder," or even "in RPGs." but my point is this: subrace bloat comes from mechanical (as in, stat bonuses and whatnot) over design, whereas in Pathfinder, a human or elf or dwarf with light skin has exactly the same mechanics as as one with dark skin. I don't see how accounting for a variety of skin tones in your game even would lead to sub-race bloat.
I don't see how accounting for a variety of skin tones in your game even would lead to sub-race bloat.
If all you're trying to do is allow players to play any race and select whatever skin tone they want without any explanation for it, then yes, you'd be 100% correct.
When I world build I get very detailed and want players to create characters that make sense in the fantasy world. Just saying that this dark-skinned elf comes from "somewhere" that has dark-skinned elves doesn't work with me.
Asking world builders to create all races with all skin tones in the real world seems like a creative burden. Part of playing in a fantasy world is forgetting the real world and RPing the character you've created in the fantasy world.
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It's not racism when the origins of different skin colors are in different places.
It is if those origins must be different places.
Also, as mentioned above, different skin colors came into being because of different geography. Everyone started out black and different skin colors emerged as a result of moving out of Africa.
None of that is true in Golarion. Look at the drow, for example. According to canon, they live underground, and have done so for so long that they can no longer see in daylight.... and have dark skin. There are a lot of reasons you could give for dark-skinned subterranean elves, but "protection from the African sun" isn't one of them.
But the same reason that drow are dark could apply to anyone at any time. People could be dark-skinned as a mark of favor (or disfavor) from the gods, as a result of black dragon ancestry somewhere a while ago, as a result of drinking the waters of the fabled Lake Wannahockaloogie, or simply because "a wizard did it."
You don't have to make it an issue or write up a country for it. As long as such a country exists vaguely "over there."
And that's what's racist. You can be any color you like as long as dark-skinned people only come from "vaguely 'over there.'"
Let me see.
* Elves? Fine
* Flying dragons? Great
* Genies in lamps granting wishes? No problem
* A magical rock that turns you literally into a god? Sure thing
* Dark skinned people from "here"? Whoa, that just violates verisimilitude. No way that would be believable.
Racism.
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I'm green and I'm proud!
Not racism.
It's not racism when the origins of different skin colors are in different places.It is if those origins must be different places.
Also, as mentioned above, different skin colors came into being because of different geography. Everyone started out black and different skin colors emerged as a result of moving out of Africa.None of that is true in Golarion. Look at the drow, for example. According to canon, they live underground, and have done so for so long that they can no longer see in daylight.... and have dark skin. There are a lot of reasons you could give for dark-skinned subterranean elves, but "protection from the African sun" isn't one of them.
But the same reason that drow are dark could apply to anyone at any time. People could be dark-skinned as a mark of favor (or disfavor) from the gods, as a result of black dragon ancestry somewhere a while ago, as a result of drinking the waters of the fabled Lake Wannahockaloogie, or simply because "a wizard did it."
You don't have to make it an issue or write up a country for it. As long as such a country exists vaguely "over there."And that's what's racist. You can be any color you like as long as dark-skinned people only come from "vaguely 'over there.'"
Let me see.
* Elves? Fine
* Flying dragons? Great
* Genies in lamps granting wishes? No problem
* A magical rock that turns you literally into a god? Sure thing
* Dark skinned people from "here"? Whoa, that just violates verisimilitude. No way that would be believable.Racism.
Yes, racism.
You can certainly do that. Invoke magic of some form and have your character be dark skinned with no genetic reason.
Well, I'm glad you accept that. Larkos doesn't seem to.
You would need to give a reason (or leave one for the GM to make up).
No, I wouldn't. It's a magical universe with active gods, things just happen.
But that applies to pretty much anything that doesn't fit the local population and doesn't follow real world rules.
You mean, like literally everything else in Golarion?
So why are we claiming that skin color needs to be specifically justified, while nothing else does? I can literally create a character with green hair, because "magic," and no one cares. But -- in your own words -- "If you want to be of a particular skin color we expect that to be genetic and tied to your ancestry. If it's not, then it requires explanation."
That is racism.
People could be dark-skinned as a mark of favor (or disfavor) from the gods, as a result of black dragon ancestry somewhere a while ago, as a result of drinking the waters of the fabled Lake Wannahockaloogie, or simply because "a wizard did it."
That sounds special snowflakey. I understand with humans that all skin tones should be represented; that absolutely makes sense to me. But does there have to be white goblins? If I demand to play a white goblin, should the GM allow me to do so? Conforming to the details of the fantasy world isn't a terrible thing. Let the people who created the content determine how their goblins, elves, dwarves, etc. look.
And that's what's racist. You can be any color you like as long as dark-skinned people only come from "vaguely 'over there.'"
Why is that racist? If I set my campaign world in an ancient analog to pre-colonial Africa, is it racist to not allow white characters?
Most world builders start with certain assumptions. Something like, this fantasy world is much like Earth during x time period except - delineated list of things including magic, dragons, etc.
It seems like a lot of these sentiments restrict the creators or authors vision. Asking for diversity in the iconics or in countries etc. in Golarion makes sense. Paizo is trying to appeal to as many people as possible, and having humans in the fantasy world that represent the people playing the game is good business sense.
I just hope we don't go so overboard as to stifle creativity.
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People could be dark-skinned as a mark of favor (or disfavor) from the gods, as a result of black dragon ancestry somewhere a while ago, as a result of drinking the waters of the fabled Lake Wannahockaloogie, or simply because "a wizard did it."That sounds special snowflakey.
More racism.
I understand with humans that all skin tones should be represented; that absolutely makes sense to me. But does there have to be white goblins? If I demand to play a white goblin, should the GM allow me to do so? Conforming to the details of the fantasy world isn't a terrible thing. Let the people who created the content determine how their goblins, elves, dwarves, etc. look.
Let's look at this. Being half-angel, that's fine and normal. It's in the rules, and has some significant mechanical advantages that can potentially unbalance the game, but it's normal. But being a white-skinned goblin, despite the fact that albinism is known to exist in the actual real Earth, is "special snowflakey."
And that's what's racist. You can be any color you like as long as dark-skinned people only come from "vaguely 'over there.'"Why is that racist? If I set my campaign world in an ancient analog to pre-colonial Africa, is it racist to not allow white characters?
In a fantasy world? Yes. If you're allowing elves but not humans of the wrong skin color, yes.
I just hope we don't go so overboard as to stifle creativity.
I don't think I'm the one stifling creativity. I'm not the one suggesting that unrealistic character conceptions such as implausible skin color need special justification.
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More racism.
I guess to each their own. If I spend the months or years creating a world and have decided that the humans in the Thunder Mountains area are black, and one of my players tries to create a human from the area and be white because "he has a white dragon in his ancestry" I'm going to call snowflake.
Let's look at this. Being half-angel, that's fine and normal. It's in the rules, and has some significant mechanical advantages that can potentially unbalance the game, but it's normal. But being a white-skinned goblin, despite the fact that albinism is known to exist in the actual real Earth, is "special snowflakey."
Albinism is a know congenital defect; that's not what I was referring to when I mentioned white goblins.
In a fantasy world? Yes. If you're allowing elves but not humans of the wrong skin color, yes.
You seem to place more importance on modern-day political correctness than an author's creative vision. Imagine all of the great works we would have lost if everyone did as much.
I don't think I'm the one stifling creativity. I'm not the one suggesting that unrealistic character conceptions such as implausible skin color need special justification.
I wouldn't call it special justification, I would call it making sense. As a world builder I literally control everything about my universe. From how many planets there are to how gravity works to how humans came to be or if humans even exist. Telling me I don't have the option to limit certain races to certain skin tones is definitely stifling creativity.
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I don't see any evidence that Golarion is such a weird magical place that genetics play no role. That populations of related ethnicities don't resemble each other. That children don't usually resemble their parents.It's weirder than the real world certainly. Your green hair may be a sign of a sorcerous bloodline, even an undeveloped one. Or many other things. But it's not just, "Any combination of colors or features is possible. White blond haired parents routinely give birth to black haired black babies (or pink haired blue ones for that matter) and no one thinks twice about it."
At least not my version of Golarion. Or any one I've seen.
In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to redhaired children when there's no history of red hair in the family. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to left-handed children when there's no history of left-handedness. In the real world, human parents routinely give birth to children with substantially darker or lighter skin than the rest of the family -- I'm one of those myself.
I've been around at family reunions where everyone's looking at the red-haired child in the crib and trying to remember if Great-Aunt Fran had red hair in the old pictures.
Recessive genes happen. As, for that matter, do mutations.
But because Golarion is so wierd and magical a place, the only thing that can't change without a direct reason is skin color.
Because differently colored skin isn't natural and isn't acceptable unless it comes from The Other.
And that is racist.
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More racism.I guess to each their own. If I spend the months or years creating a world and have decided that the humans in the Thunder Mountains area are black, and one of my players tries to create a human from the area and be white because "he has a white dragon in his ancestry" I'm going to call snowflake.
But if one of your players tries to create an aasimar from that area, that's just fine?
And if the aasimar just happens to have pale skin and blonde hair which he got from his angelic father, that's fine?
Heck, as a human I can take Racial Heritage and I can eliminate the need to breathe... and that's not a special snowflake.
But god help me if my skin is the wrong color.
Orfamay,
acknowledging that different culture exists, that different ethnicities exist, and that each cultural group has a place of origin isn't racism. That's cultural diversity and that's a good thing.
Making a biased judgment based on that is racism.